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On September 13 2011 10:04 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 09:57 Poffel wrote:
How about we hold a fictional tournament, this being a Starcraft site and all...
Rules
1) Characters may use any power at their disposal, but only if they have used said power at least once before (source required). For example, the Flash may dodge an attack by running two seconds into the future (because he did that vs.the Black Lantern rings in Blackest Night), but he can't throw somebody's mommy down the stairs (because that's something reserved for evil-doers like the Reverse-Flash in the comics).
2) Each character gets a week of preparation time as they need before the fight. They can bring any equipment they need, but no allies, and only if they have regular access to said equipment and have used said equipment at least once before (source required). For example, Batman may bring synthezised Kryptonite, just in case, but he can't bring Green Arrow as backup (both as in the Dark Knight Returns saga), but he probably won't have access to Gamma-powered pacifiers to turn the Hulk into Banner.
3) The fight starts in a random city square with both fighters being aware of the presence of each other, although no line-of-sight needs to be established, should one or both of the contenstants choose start in hiding.
4) A fighters lose a fight if they are a) dead, b) nonexistant, or c) incapacitated, unless they can overcome said condition within a few minutes.
5) Once a fighter wins, he or she moves on to the next round.
The rooster might look like this (note that Superman Prime can't participate due to rule no. 1):
Ro16
(A) Doctor Manhattan vs. Goku
(B) The Batman vs. Hulk
(C) Flash vs. Mighty Thor
(D) Superman vs. Silver Surfer
(E) Sentry vs. Doctor Strange
(F) Wonder Woman vs. Jean Grey
(G) Green Lantern vs. Spawn
(H) Captain Marvel vs. Lobo
Ro8
(I) winner A vs. winner B
(J) winner C vs. winner D
(K) winner E vs. winner F
(L) winner G vs. winner H
Semifinals
(M) winner I vs. winner J
(N) winner K vs. winner L
Finals
(O) winner M vs. winner N With this list, I'm pretty sure Jean Grey is going to run away with this, pending on Flash+Silver Surfer. Hulk Thor Superman (barely) Jean Grey (LOL WW seriously?) All I'm gonna vote for. Jean Grey better make it to the finals.
My opinion of first round:
(A) Doctor Manhattan > Goku
(B) The Batman < Hulk
(C) Flash > Mighty Thor
(D) Superman < Silver Surfer (regular Superman, not Prime)
(E) Sentry > Doctor Strange
(F) Wonder Woman < Jean Grey
(G) Green Lantern > Spawn
(H) Captain Marvel > Lobo
EDIT: Flash vs. SS in next round?  The original controversy was these were top two...
Flash or SS vs. Jean Grey in Finals. Easy.
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My favourite superhero is probably Dudley, I mean he doesnt really have any true powers but he can do things no regular human can do like uppercut someone 30+ feet into the air, Or generate small tornadoes around his fists. Plus if you think he is not the best "you have no dignity" or you are "gutter trash" 
In the above contest i dont see anyone really taking out jean grey/pheonix. maybe surfer or manhatten but IDK heres my first round picks
Doctor Manhattan beats Goku
The Batman loses to Hulk
Flash = Mighty Thor (cant decide who would win)
Superman loses to Silver Surfer
Sentry beats Doctor Strange
Wonder Woman loses to Jean Grey
Green Lantern beats Spawn
Captain Marvel beats Lobo
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(A) Doctor Manhattan > Goku
Manhattan is immortal to damage and has reality manipulating powers.
(B) The Batman > Hulk
The hulk is certainly more powerful in every aspect except for monetary assets, intelligence and strategy. But batman will cunningly spend his preparation week making cookies, and thus capable of making hulk harmless and unangry.
(C) Flash < Mighty Thor
If thor has the odinsword which can defeat nearly omnipotent celestials, then he should be able to defeat flash too.
(D) Superman < Silver Surfer
Space-time altering powers will always beat non-space-time altering powers. No contest.
(E) Sentry = Doctor Strange
They both are said to have cosmic entity level reality altering powers (if its Robert Reynolds sentry)
(F) Wonder Woman < Jean Grey
Space-time altering powers will always beat non-space-time altering powers. No contest.
(G) Green Lantern < Spawn
DC has always been more restrictive with their powers.
(H) Captain Marvel > Lobo
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On September 10 2011 16:40 EquilasH wrote:That's Vegeta - Kakarot is Goku.
It was supposed to be Vegeta yelling "Kakarot!", but I set it up badly 
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On September 13 2011 10:45 VoirDire wrote:
(A) Doctor Manhattan > Goku
Manhattan is immortal to damage and has reality manipulating powers.
(B) The Batman > Hulk
The hulk is certainly more powerful in every aspect except for monetary assets, intelligence and strategy. But batman will cunningly spend his preparation week making cookies, and thus capable of making hulk harmless and unangry.
(C) Flash < Mighty Thor
If thor has the odinsword which can defeat nearly omnipotent celestials, then he should be able to defeat flash too.
(D) Superman < Silver Surfer
Space-time altering powers will always beat non-space-time altering powers. No contest.
(E) Sentry = Doctor Strange
They both are said to have cosmic entity level reality altering powers (if its Robert Reynolds sentry)
(F) Wonder Woman < Jean Grey
Space-time altering powers will always beat non-space-time altering powers. No contest.
(G) Green Lantern < Spawn
DC has always been more restrictive with their powers.
(H) Captain Marvel > Lobo
Hmm..
(a) Doctor Manhattan > Goku (based on the grounds stated I Agree with this that he is in fact stronger).
However, wouldn't doctor manhattan think of whether or not to participate (given his character and all) and I would think he would chose not to participate as it bears no fruit to any cause. Plus he is technically going to be up against Goku who is innately pure of heart and means only to find out who is stronger but not destroy or kill. I'd say Dr. Manhattan would choose to leave the fight and Goku wins just because Manhattan forfeits the "competition) GOKU winner by DEFAULT.
(b) Batman < Hulk
Hulk would win in the sense that he is no longer just a raging monstrosity. He develops consciousness, unless of course extremely enraged. Batman however has really no means of "hurting" Hulk and Hulk won't be a pushover like Bane. So I say, HULK will WIN.
(c) Flash > Thor
I know we've established the grounds of Flash not technically time travelling to kill the Baby thor and what not, but then Flash just brings Thor into the end of time or "nothingness" and Thor would have no way out as he would technically be shifting in between dimensions/parallels of nothingness still. (maybe he'd cause the big bang that way that started the universe) FLASH would WIN for me.
(d) Superman < Silver Surfer
Established by quoted poster. =)
(e) ABSTAIN (Not enough idea about both heroes to give a convincing arguement.)
(f) Wonder Woman < Jean Grey
I think with or without Phoenix, JEAN GREY already trumps her with Psychic powers. =)
(g) Green Latern < Spawn
Spawn has the powers of the underworld and can unleash Hell on Earth so to speak. Green Lantern while strong is limited by their Will. Therefore Lantern's will has a breaking point and SPAWN will trump him.
(h) ABSTAIN (not sure although I vote for Marvel =)! )
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(A) Doctor Manhattan < Goku
Dr Manhattan wouldn't fight Goku. If Goku pushes it and doesn't accept Dr. Manhattan's no show, then Goku will be splattered (at will) all over the dirt. But Goku is not bloodthirsty, he'll accept surrender.
(B) The Batman > Hulk
Bruce Banner will do everything he can to not show up as to ensure the minimum amount of lives lost. If he knows a week in advance where the fight will be, he'll high tail it out of there. Batman will buy him the plane ticket and accept his walkover victory.
(C) Flash < Mighty Thor
Thor is immortal. Any specific persona of Flash is not. Thor is invulnerable. Flash is not. After a long enough time span, Flash (even with time travel powers) will eventually grow old and die and a new guy will take his place. Thor wins through patience.
(D) Superman < Silver Surfer
Power Cosmic. There is now a red sun engulfing the planet. Power Cosmic--Silver Surfer knows Kryptonite hurts superman. The planet is now covered in Kryptonite even if Silver Surfer has to spend a week travelling faster than the speed of light to do it.
(E) Sentry < Doctor Strange
Doctor Strange teleports the Sentry into hell where he know spends eternity battling demons. Doctor Strange wins.
(F) Wonder Woman < Jean Grey
Mind controls Wonder Woman to stab herself. If somehow Wonder Woman does kill Jean Grey, she turns into the Phoenix and wipes Wonder Woman out of existence. Jean Grey wins.
(G) Green Lantern < Spawn
Rings need to recharge eventually. Not hell. Spawn wins.
(H) Captain Marvel < Lobo
Captain Marvel has magic. Lobo does not. Captain Marvel flies. Lobo does not. However, if Lobo was given a week to kill Captain Marvel, he would kill him at day 6 while Captain Marvel was still living life as Billy because Captain Marvel doesn't cheat and Lobo does. Lobo wins.
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Doctor Manhattan vs. Goku
He brings all 7 Dragon Balls and wishes for the power to defeat Doctor Manhattan. Since the Dragon Balls grant ANY wish he will get it and then win.
The Batman vs. Hulk
The Hulk is basiclly the same as Batman villian Bane. Batman beats Bane up. I do not see Batman losing to Hulk. He could create something to nuetralize Hulks Gamma power
Flash vs. Mighty Thor
Thor. Sorry speedy, you don't hit hard enough. It will take a long time but sooner or later Thors gonna smoke you and your done.
Superman vs. Silver Surfer
Silver Surfer. Free win. Superman cannt combat beings that can manipulate the cosmos
Sentry vs. Doctor Strange
Sentry fought a galaxy consuming being to a stalemate. Doctor strange isn't even a zillionth that strong.
Wonder Woman vs. Jean Grey
Doesn't even need the Phoenix Force here. Jean should be able to break Wonder Woman from the inside out.
Green Lantern vs. Spawn
This one is tough. The Ring is limited only by your willpower and creativity and Hal Jordan has that in spades. No matter what this would be a fun one to watch
Captain Marvel vs. Lobo
These two fighters are exactly the same excpt for one thing. Marvel has the speed advantage so he wins. This would be a fun fight to see.
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On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero? The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D
The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe.
Marvel universe:
If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract.
In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum.
DC universe:
Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c.
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On September 13 2011 16:11 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero? The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe. Marvel universe: If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract. In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum. DC universe: Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c.
Not to put a damper in your overall argument--but if the speedforce is simply a composite of space and time then it's be definition weaker than the power cosmic which goes beyond space and time. Not saying SS is better--just saying that I don't see how Flash is better if you argue that the Speed Force is the composite of space and time.
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On September 13 2011 16:47 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 16:11 VoirDire wrote:On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero? The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe. Marvel universe: If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract. In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum. DC universe: Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c. Not to put a damper in your overall argument--but if the speedforce is simply a composite of space and time then it's be definition weaker than the power cosmic which goes beyond space and time. Not saying SS is better--just saying that I don't see how Flash is better if you argue that the Speed Force is the composite of space and time.
I guess for this argument, when we put Flash into the Marvel Universe, he has the equivalent powers of the Speed Gem (the power of Speed, Motion as we can describe it in Marvel Universe context). As such, his power is simply one over the vast majority of cosmic energies or forces of reality that exists within the Marvel plane. Time travel is still related to speed in this case right though? Where he moves so fast he can actually go forward or back depending on how he travels in the timeline.
And going back to the surfer, if he were in the DC universe, energy is still energy which the Surfer can theoretically tap into, be it more difficult to adapt to at first but hey, he'll get the hang of it.
Oh, and I'm not sure if I am correct with this, but when it comes to showcasing Flash's peak/ultimate form (if you can call it that) It is usually presented as a self preserving mechanism right? Like when he went against black flash. His mindset is "Gotta go faster, faster, faster, then boom!" It's like his self preservation mechanism unlocks his potential, which unlike the Surfer, he wills it to occur or not, regardless of whether it's an act of self preservation.
Taking into account how their characters are, yes, Flash nor surfer would not go behind the back of their opponents to kill them while they were still less powerful or mortal.
I'd say it may go down to where the battle takes place? Can the flash fight in space? I don't have proof of it so I can not say for certain. But I think Surfer has the overall advantage, other than with the category of speed. He also has "enlightenment" or cosmic awareness if you could at least call it that so he's no push over in the thinking department. =)
Just saying. My 2 cents IMO. =)
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Why does no one mention someone like Invincible, or the Astounding Wolf Man, or Spawn.
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On September 13 2011 14:35 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Doctor Manhattan vs. Goku
He brings all 7 Dragon Balls and wishes for the power to defeat Doctor Manhattan. Since the Dragon Balls grant ANY wish he will get it and then win.
man you don't understand your dragonball lore yet haha, neither do i fully but i'm pretty sure it grants any wish within the power of the dragon itself. so if the dragon doesn't have the power to defeat or the power to grant it, then it doesn't work
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On September 13 2011 17:02 17Sphynx17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 16:47 lorkac wrote:On September 13 2011 16:11 VoirDire wrote:On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero? The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe. Marvel universe: If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract. In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum. DC universe: Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c. Not to put a damper in your overall argument--but if the speedforce is simply a composite of space and time then it's be definition weaker than the power cosmic which goes beyond space and time. Not saying SS is better--just saying that I don't see how Flash is better if you argue that the Speed Force is the composite of space and time. I guess for this argument, when we put Flash into the Marvel Universe, he has the equivalent powers of the Speed Gem (the power of Speed, Motion as we can describe it in Marvel Universe context). As such, his power is simply one over the vast majority of cosmic energies or forces of reality that exists within the Marvel plane. Time travel is still related to speed in this case right though? Where he moves so fast he can actually go forward or back depending on how he travels in the timeline. And going back to the surfer, if he were in the DC universe, energy is still energy which the Surfer can theoretically tap into, be it more difficult to adapt to at first but hey, he'll get the hang of it. Oh, and I'm not sure if I am correct with this, but when it comes to showcasing Flash's peak/ultimate form (if you can call it that) It is usually presented as a self preserving mechanism right? Like when he went against black flash. His mindset is "Gotta go faster, faster, faster, then boom!" It's like his self preservation mechanism unlocks his potential, which unlike the Surfer, he wills it to occur or not, regardless of whether it's an act of self preservation. Taking into account how their characters are, yes, Flash nor surfer would not go behind the back of their opponents to kill them while they were still less powerful or mortal. I'd say it may go down to where the battle takes place? Can the flash fight in space? I don't have proof of it so I can not say for certain. But I think Surfer has the overall advantage, other than with the category of speed. He also has "enlightenment" or cosmic awareness if you could at least call it that so he's no push over in the thinking department. =) Just saying. My 2 cents IMO. =)
Let's be honest. SS would never duel anyone if it got in the way of him moping about feeling guilty for committing planetary genocide on am ass scale. Which means the Flash will always get the first "move" in a duel between them. But let's assume that they both want to fight. Both run to the end of the universe. SS being the power cosmic still exists because he is a part of the universe. Flash dies because in the end he's mortal and the universe has just ended.
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On September 13 2011 17:22 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 14:35 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Doctor Manhattan vs. Goku
He brings all 7 Dragon Balls and wishes for the power to defeat Doctor Manhattan. Since the Dragon Balls grant ANY wish he will get it and then win.
man you don't understand your dragonball lore yet haha, neither do i fully but i'm pretty sure it grants any wish within the power of the dragon itself. so if the dragon doesn't have the power to defeat or the power to grant it, then it doesn't work
Let's not even get that far. The moment Goku shows up with 7 dragonballs one of the dragonballs is already a puff of smoke as Dr. Manahattan has transmuted it at will.
That is, if Dr. Manhattan actually cares enough to bother.
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On September 13 2011 17:28 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 17:02 17Sphynx17 wrote:On September 13 2011 16:47 lorkac wrote:On September 13 2011 16:11 VoirDire wrote:On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero? The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe. Marvel universe: If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract. In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum. DC universe: Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c. Not to put a damper in your overall argument--but if the speedforce is simply a composite of space and time then it's be definition weaker than the power cosmic which goes beyond space and time. Not saying SS is better--just saying that I don't see how Flash is better if you argue that the Speed Force is the composite of space and time. I guess for this argument, when we put Flash into the Marvel Universe, he has the equivalent powers of the Speed Gem (the power of Speed, Motion as we can describe it in Marvel Universe context). As such, his power is simply one over the vast majority of cosmic energies or forces of reality that exists within the Marvel plane. Time travel is still related to speed in this case right though? Where he moves so fast he can actually go forward or back depending on how he travels in the timeline. And going back to the surfer, if he were in the DC universe, energy is still energy which the Surfer can theoretically tap into, be it more difficult to adapt to at first but hey, he'll get the hang of it. Oh, and I'm not sure if I am correct with this, but when it comes to showcasing Flash's peak/ultimate form (if you can call it that) It is usually presented as a self preserving mechanism right? Like when he went against black flash. His mindset is "Gotta go faster, faster, faster, then boom!" It's like his self preservation mechanism unlocks his potential, which unlike the Surfer, he wills it to occur or not, regardless of whether it's an act of self preservation. Taking into account how their characters are, yes, Flash nor surfer would not go behind the back of their opponents to kill them while they were still less powerful or mortal. I'd say it may go down to where the battle takes place? Can the flash fight in space? I don't have proof of it so I can not say for certain. But I think Surfer has the overall advantage, other than with the category of speed. He also has "enlightenment" or cosmic awareness if you could at least call it that so he's no push over in the thinking department. =) Just saying. My 2 cents IMO. =) Let's be honest. SS would never duel anyone if it got in the way of him moping about feeling guilty for committing planetary genocide on am ass scale. Which means the Flash will always get the first "move" in a duel between them. But let's assume that they both want to fight. Both run to the end of the universe. SS being the power cosmic still exists because he is a part of the universe. Flash dies because in the end he's mortal and the universe has just ended.
Flash travels to the end of the universe and time all the time, even before he became the actual embodiment of the force itself. I also wouldn't call Flash mortal, considering that every single Flash besides Garick has died several times and they just remanifest from the Speed Force (their immortality just isn't as obvious as Surfer's when he reconstitutes himself out of nothing).
On September 13 2011 14:35 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Flash vs. Mighty Thor
Thor. Sorry speedy, you don't hit hard enough. It will take a long time but sooner or later Thors gonna smoke you and your done.
Oh man, really? No one hits harder than Flash. His hits are literally infinite and unlimited in their strength.
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On September 13 2011 17:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 14:35 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Flash vs. Mighty Thor
Thor. Sorry speedy, you don't hit hard enough. It will take a long time but sooner or later Thors gonna smoke you and your done.
Oh man, really? No one hits harder than Flash. His hits are literally infinite and unlimited in their strength.
Mighty Thor is immortal. Flash doesn't hit hard enough to kill an immortal. Sorry.
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Some random responses:
"If thor has the odinsword which can defeat nearly omnipotent celestials..."
Has anybody besides Odin ever used the Odinsword? As far as I know, Thor has only threatened to draw it so far?
"... then Flash just brings Thor into the end of time or "nothingness" and Thor would have no way out"
I'm pretty sure that nobody just brings Thor anywhere if he doesn't want to go, so it would be nice if stuff like this would get just a little more elaborated. Please note that Thor has used Mjölnir to create Anti-Force before, so he shouldn't have to just watch when the Flash taps into the Speed Force.
"But Goku is not bloodthirsty, he'll accept surrender."
While Goku is not bloodsthirsty, he's kind of the only character on that list notorious for eagerly participating in such tournaments... so I'd argue that, just for the sake of it, he'd at least try to make the fight happen.
"Bruce Banner will do everything he can to not show up as to ensure the minimum amount of lives lost."
Banner always tries that, and it never works. That's kind of the premise of the character.
"Power Cosmic. There is now a red sun engulfing the planet. Power Cosmic--Silver Surfer knows Kryptonite hurts superman. The planet is now covered in Kryptonite..."
The real question for the fight between Silver Surfer and Supes is who'd be less emo about using their powers. If you really think that the Surfer would endanger an entire planet full of innocents by altering the sun of by putting radioactive material all over it, please refer to: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=silver surfer
"Mind controls Wonder Woman to stab herself."
Roughly 50% of Wonder Woman's rogues gallery are magicians, sorcerers etc., and Wonder Woman has withstand and/or broken mind controls on many occasions. If she can do it against Circe ("goddess-level sorceress" according to her wiki page), I'm pretty sure that she'd have a decent chance vs. a telepathic attack of the Phoenix as well.
"He brings all 7 Dragon Balls and wishes for the power to defeat Doctor Manhattan."
Right. Because that's how Dragon Balls work. You just collect them and wish for Cell, Boo, whoever to disappear. Wait...
"The Hulk is basiclly the same as Batman villian Bane."
Remarkable differences between the Hulk and Bane include (but are not limited to): Bane is a genius strategist, martial artist and master of disguise at peak human physical condition, while the Hulk throws tanks around like candy, jumps over skyscrapers, shrugs of most mundane attacks (including tank shells and the like), and regenerates damage so fast that it isn't funny. Also, the Hulk is green.
"Superman cannt combat beings that can manipulate the cosmos"
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=superman rogues gallery
"These two fighters [Captain Marvel and Lobo] are exactly the same excpt for one thing."
Errrm... no. They have about as much in common as the Hulk and Bane. You know, one is the Shazam-guy, while Lobo is basically Wolverine turned up to eleven.
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On September 13 2011 18:29 Poffel wrote:Some random responses: "If thor has the odinsword which can defeat nearly omnipotent celestials..." Has anybody besides Odin ever used the Odinsword? As far as I know, Thor has only threatened to draw it so far? "... then Flash just brings Thor into the end of time or "nothingness" and Thor would have no way out" I'm pretty sure that nobody just brings Thor anywhere if he doesn't want to go, so it would be nice if stuff like this would get just a little more elaborated. Please note that Thor has used Mjölnir to create Anti-Force before, so he shouldn't have to just watch when the Flash taps into the Speed Force. "But Goku is not bloodthirsty, he'll accept surrender." While Goku is not bloodsthirsty, he's kind of the only character on that list notorious for eagerly participating in such tournaments... so I'd argue that, just for the sake of it, he'd at least try to make the fight happen. "Bruce Banner will do everything he can to not show up as to ensure the minimum amount of lives lost." Banner always tries that, and it never works. That's kind of the premise of the character. "Power Cosmic. There is now a red sun engulfing the planet. Power Cosmic--Silver Surfer knows Kryptonite hurts superman. The planet is now covered in Kryptonite..." The real question for the fight between Silver Surfer and Supes is who'd be less emo about using their powers. If you really think that the Surfer would endanger an entire planet full of innocents by altering the sun of by putting radioactive material all over it, please refer to: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=silver surfer "Mind controls Wonder Woman to stab herself." Roughly 50% of Wonder Woman's rogues gallery are magicians, sorcerers etc., and Wonder Woman has withstand and/or broken mind controls on many occasions. If she can do it against Circe ("goddess-level sorceress" according to her wiki page), I'm pretty sure that she'd have a decent chance vs. a telepathic attack of the Phoenix as well. "He brings all 7 Dragon Balls and wishes for the power to defeat Doctor Manhattan." Right. Because that's how Dragon Balls work. You just collect them and wish for Cell, Boo, whoever to disappear. Wait... "The Hulk is basiclly the same as Batman villian Bane." Remarkable differences between the Hulk and Bane include (but are not limited to): Bane is a genius strategist, martial artist and master of disguise at peak human physical condition, while the Hulk throws tanks around like candy, jumps over skyscrapers, shrugs of most mundane attacks (including tank shells and the like), and regenerates damage so fast that it isn't funny. Also, the Hulk is green. "Superman cannt combat beings that can manipulate the cosmos" http://lmgtfy.com/?q=superman rogues gallery"These two fighters [Captain Marvel and Lobo] are exactly the same excpt for one thing." Errrm... no. They have about as much in common as the Hulk and Bane. You know, one is the Shazam-guy, while Lobo is basically Wolverine turned up to eleven.
To expand on the premise of how Flash defeats thor, he can prevent Thor from even acting/reacting and then bring him into nothingness. Make thor theoretically is like a statue that he can bring anywhere as he is the embodiment of speed itself. Also, unlike surfer, he may be a God but his feats as far as I know are limited to those of feats of strength and a "factor" of speed like how "fast" he can wield or strike his hammer.
As for Goku, yep, I agree, he'd try to at least want to get the fight started but I am still in doubt whether Dr. Manhattan would bother participating, even if Goku pleads or mocks him. =)
Well, for Supes vs Surfer, one could argue that surfer could bring him to a black hole then. Both have theoretically feats of strength but Supes is stronger because of our sun or a sun, exception though for a Red Sun/Star so in a black hole where even the light is absorbed. And Supes would end up running out of energy like his battle with Doomsday drained him out, thus "knocking" him out of the match.
The 7 Dragon Ball wish by Goku was just flat out wierd and should not be part of the fight. You could just simply say, if by any chance the Dragon God Shenron could say do what is stated, one could argue his effectivity is limited to once a year or thrice a year (depending on the type of dragon ball you pertain to). But as we also know through Goku's character, he wouldn't do such a thing as it is not honorable to win by just wishing your enemy away. I wouldn't say the same for the other DBZ character cause they tried that with Buu, although the dragon god I recall couldn't do it cause he was too powerful as far as I can recall (but hey it might be a case of lost in translation)
I also don't agree that Hulk is the same as Bane, bane gets his strength from drugs injected into his system, but it has a limitation as to a feat of strength it can give him. As for hulk, he would have no qualm to level a place if he's in berserk mode to defeat an opponent "HULK SMASH". Batman's weapons wouldn't be able to "pierce his skin" to inject the drugs once he reaches that level.
My opinion is Jean can still win against wonder woman, especially in Phoenix Mode she would be rendered untouchable by Wonder Woman. Even if she breaks the mind control, she can't really do much to Phoenix, don't know how the lasso could help her here though. =P
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Franklin Richards is a Superhero to fear even though he is just a small child.
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I cant believe no one has mentioned Dumbledore, he can insta-kill, insta-teleport
Magic has no limitations:
invisibility cloak
resurrection stone
immortality stone
luck potion (he can be lucky and defeat 10 gods at once),
have infinite lives due to horcruxes
time machine (time turner)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/dragonball/images/e/e5/VegetaVsGokuBattleOnEarth.png)
