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On September 08 2011 07:45 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +
At no point did the American people want Obamacare as it was passed, yet that's what we got.
Source please? Most of the content of your posts, xDaunt, is as or even more unsubstantiated as you claim the article in the OP is.
Rule 1 of politics: Polls only matter if they are in your favor. If Americans overwhelmingly don't want cuts to Medicare\caid\SS, Republicans just re-frame the issues as one of "Wasteful spending" - which gets positive polling results, of course.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On September 08 2011 07:37 Arrian wrote:
No matter how what's going on in Washington is framed, I think the basic results speak for themselves, and that's essentially that the Democrats have done squat to create jobs, though they have created an overabundance of debt, and we're even worse off than we were when Bush was in office, which I basically didn't think was possible, so congratualtions Mr. Obama, for doing the impossible: we are worse off than we were under Bush.
This is ludicrous. First of all:
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2011/06/green-jobs-are-real-german-and-american-solar-industry-both-employ-more-people-than-u-s-steel-production
#2: The increase in debt is the stimulus package. Any economist worth his salt can explain to you why we need stimulus packages, and why they are not bad debt.
Are republicans creating more green jobs?
Spark notes to US economy political finger pointing:
There is nothing that any politician can do to bring the manufacturing sector back to the united states. It's been attempted many times and we're still unsuccessfully pouring money down that toilet. There will be no manufacturing in the united states for as long as China uses what essentially is slave labor.
The united states operates a healthy service economy, but the downside to such is that it's impossible for any politician to snap fingers and create demand for a service without digging holes in the ground and filling them back up.
The only way to create demand is to spend money on education and research. If we train more scientists and engineers and have them invent new products, we'll create new demand and new jobs. Now guess which party contributes the most to education. (disclaimer: both parties do contribute well enough to research in general, but not enough to energy research.)
Ok. Now get this:
Our economy is tied entirely to economic bubbles.
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=gdp growth chart#ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:USA&ifdim=country&hl=en&dl=en
Load this chart and keep this information in mind:
Black Monday 1987
The Dot-com bubble burst 2000
United States housing bubble burst 2007
Take home quiz: Is president Obama responsible for the housing bubble bursting? Write a 5 page paper on the topic, due by monday.
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imo the parties are not the problem... it the people behind each party that the problem... but i guess you can't expect "role modal" politicians to led their people without gaining some personal benefit...
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On September 08 2011 08:22 Bulldog654 wrote:
I support the Republican party because it is being forced back to its original principles by an ever increasingly involved populace, demanding a return to limited government. The Federal Government has proven itself to be a poor custodian of my money, and now I and others like me are demanding to keep more of our money, and this includes rich people, who always seem to be demonized by those on the left.
In exchange for "taking care of us" by providing many social programs of questionable effectiveness at the cost of the productive, Democrats demand that i cede rights that I will not compromise on. Bottom line even though I'm apparently a fool for having religious beliefs and also lack a sliver of insight, I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government.
Let me state though, for the record I think it is absolutely foolish for anyone in this country to think things will get better for us if only <insert political party> were in power. I am currently supporting the Republican party under the admittedly very foolish hope that they will get the message I and the majority of my voting countrymen are trying to send them.
Surely you're not talking about medicare or medicaid, which have been outrageously successful at reducing poverty among elderly citizens and the chronically ill? What are these unsuccessful programs you are referencing?
No one is demonizing the rich, but simply asking that they pay increased taxes seeing as how they have benefited disproportionately from the post-war economic gains, while at the same time having to do little actual work for that money (grilling your hedge fund manager doesn't count).
It's just strange to see people frame taxes as a question of liberty when the patriot act has been reauthorized and cemented, Obama continues to torture and kidnap people, and the government seeks ever more authority to spy on it's own citizens.
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Ugh, as a Republican I've felt like I've become an independant by the very nature of hardcore Republican tactics pushing me away. My brother (A republican politician) told me to vote for Obama because he seemed to be level headed.
Edit: Nevermind, ha. I'm amazed how fast this thread devolved into a shitstorm. There are inherant problems with both Republicans and Democrats and the first step to solving any of that is respecting both sides.
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On September 08 2011 07:12 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 07:05 InvalidID wrote:
The other reason I think it's valuable is because a certain portion of people tend to think that it's only recently that the GOP has gone batshit insane, rather than the entire party being founded on plutocratic ideals which are directly opposed to the interests of the vast majority of the country.
Even though I am fairly liberal myself, I find that characterization a bit extreme. The republican party was most definitely not "founded" on such ideals: it is Mr Lincolns party after all. It was not until the 20th century that the "radical" republicans exchanged roles with the democrats. The reality is that the republican party is not some secret conspiracy out to support the billionaires at the expense of the people: it is a regional populist party, and they do a very good job at representing the views of their constituents(even if some of those views may be, in my opinion, misguided). The position of political parties a hundred years ago is fairly irrelevant imo. The fact of the matter is that right now we have a party which blatantly ignores science, spouts religious scripture in official state government meetings, and defends the interests of the super wealthy while simultaneously demonizing the poor. I mean seriously, we have congressmen from NC banging locks together, (as a metaphor for gay marriage) and citing bible verses as supporting arguments for state legislature. I think calling them fucking crazy isn't too much of a stretch.
I agree that it is irrelevant for the present situation, but the OP stated "founded," so I felt that his statement should be clarified.
I disagree that the republicans are insane, in my opinion they are pragmatists, doing what a representative politician should do: represent the opinions of their constituents. I work as an engineer at a factory in the countryside, and as such I interact often with people who would be considered to be pretty typical of the republican base.
The vast majority are evangelical christian, poorly educated, and lower middle class-working poor. The opinions they espouse are pretty-much identical to those that my rather ridiculous, tea-party, local representative espouses.
When you examine many of their opinions, they are seemingly irrational: why would the working poor oppose a health care plan that helps them more then anyone else, or a support a tax break on the rich? I do not feel the answer lies with some sort of fox-news-billionaire conspiracy, but rather with something much more simple: fear.
They are afraid of losing their jobs and their way of life. They have gotten the short end of the stick from scientific advancement: their jobs were replaced with automation, and they are faced with decreasing social mobility, as the economy becomes more technology oriented.
The past world, whether it ever existed or not, of social mobility for a person with just a high school diploma is looked on with rose colored glasses. This memory was the ideal that you could work hard and make it rich in the world, even with little education.
In the midst of this climate you have democrats who espouse social views that do not align with those of the highly traditionalist rural poor/middle class, and who present economic plans, which on the surface appear to not be in line with their ideal of work-reward. The republicans meanwhile, do an excellent job of representing the social values of the rural population, while also espousing the economic ideal that they so crave: work hard and get rewarded.
I do agree with the sentiment made in the article quoted by the OP that the Democrats have udderly failed to communicate. You can't speak like a Harvard professor, and expect people with only a GED or a barely earned high school diploma from a failed school to understand what you mean or why. You need someone like Bill Clinton, who can summarize complex policy issues in simple terms, like his famous "Don't ask, don't tell," reform.
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On September 08 2011 08:08 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 06:49 zimz wrote:
Apple use to have a manufacturing plant where i lived, but a couple years ago they moved manufacturing to China. My friends use to work at the assembly line for Apple. Fuck Apple! Ya, how dare them employ those evil more productive chinese
not more productive, but more CHEAP labor. It's not only that but its an American company, who makes most of its money off Americans, but sending the jobs to China instead. use your brain.
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On September 08 2011 08:22 Bulldog654 wrote:
I support the Republican party because it is being forced back to its original principles by an ever increasingly involved populace, demanding a return to limited government. The Federal Government has proven itself to be a poor custodian of my money, and now I and others like me are demanding to keep more of our money, and this includes rich people, who always seem to be demonized by those on the left.
In exchange for "taking care of us" by providing many social programs of questionable effectiveness at the cost of the productive, Democrats demand that i cede rights that I will not compromise on. Bottom line even though I'm apparently a fool for having religious beliefs and also lack a sliver of insight, I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government.
Let me state though, for the record I think it is absolutely foolish for anyone in this country to think things will get better for us if only <insert political party> were in power. I am currently supporting the Republican party under the admittedly very foolish hope that they will get the message I and the majority of my voting countrymen are trying to send them.
Unfortunately, that same party you support is also the party of extreme right wing, very vocal, ideology that promotes a single religion state, the repeal of women's rights and complete decimation of the middle class.
You can say "Well, that's not the republican credo!", and that may be true, but it IS the credo of the wing nuts driving the republican car right now.
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On September 08 2011 08:35 zimz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:08 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 08 2011 06:49 zimz wrote:
Apple use to have a manufacturing plant where i lived, but a couple years ago they moved manufacturing to China. My friends use to work at the assembly line for Apple. Fuck Apple! Ya, how dare them employ those evil more productive chinese not more productive, but more CHEAP labor. It's not only that but its an American company, who makes most of its money off Americans, but sending the jobs to China instead. use your brain.
Productiveness is measured by the output after including incomes and expenses. Given that, Chinese ARE more productive period. You are just being a nationalistic idiot.
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None of this information is new. These are common political tactics and ploys. I imagine that democrats have similar things going on.
Word's like "obamacare" and "the patriot act" are similar to "the new deal" or "no child left behind". Naming something has a powerful way of persuading uninformed citizens. Obama ran on a very popular hispanic saying "Si se puede". He knows the power of rhetoric as do politicians of both partys.
Politicians are always playing rhetorical games in order to garner votes and win elections. The only surprising thing here is that these strategies were actively discussed.
As far as his economics statement, saying things like "X company was profitable so why aren't they hiring people" is an obvious economic fallacy. Corporations are driven by profits. If hiring someone lowers their profit margin, then why would they do it?
And finally, his analysis of the small "wealth" christianity movement is correct. The republicans are known for supporting churches to be non-profit organizations even in situations where it's obvious that they are in it for more. Fortunately, this is a very small minority of christians and is unlikely to ever become mainstream.
Overall, this article doesn't really provide any insight beyond what was already known or speculated to be known. The only thing that surprised me was the apparent openness about the political strategy.
After reading the whole article, he just appears to be disenchanted with the republican party and maybe the whole political system as a whole, but it seems to me that he must have been very naive to begin with.
The entire system is based around getting voters and finding a majority of voters in order to win an election. Notice how republicans have backed off the gay marriage issue lately? They are realizing that a significant number of potential republicans are turned away by that issue. By not talking about it, they don't have to confront potential voters with an issue that would immediately turn them away.
Don't think democrats are innocent either. Democrats know exactly how to appeal to hispanic and latino voters in this country. By using words such as "union", "si se puede", and etc they are capturing a group of voters that in the end are probably idealistically closer to the republican party.
All in all, this is why I will vote for Ron Paul. The only candidate that does not engage in this political discourse and is truly the most honest politician in all of Washington. He is running as a republican in hopes of rebranding the party to become more libertarian leaning and the tea party is a direct result of his influence (the real tea party, not this neo con tea party nonsense).
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On September 08 2011 08:29 McFeser wrote:
Ugh, as a Republican I've felt like I've become an independant by the very nature of hardcore Republican tactics pushing me away. My brother (A republican politician) told me to vote for Obama because he seemed to be level headed.
Edit: Nevermind, ha. I'm amazed how fast this thread devolved into a shitstorm. There are inherant problems with both Republicans and Democrats and the first step to solving any of that is respecting both sides.
Amen to this!
What is it with political threads on TL? The only one that seems remotely civil is the Rep Nominations thread. I would posit that it is pretty clear there are issues on all sides here and that railing against the opposition gains nothing.
Finally, to the OP. Please can you reword your "news" item so that it isn't blatantly obvious that despise the GOP. At least try to show some semblance of balance. If you want a decent discussion, put out a decent OP.
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On September 08 2011 07:45 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +
At no point did the American people want Obamacare as it was passed, yet that's what we got.
Source please? Most of the content of your posts, xDaunt, is as or even more unsubstantiated as you claim the article in the OP is.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law
The polling data stretches back all the way to when the bill was signed into law.
And for the record, you shouldn't even need to look at a poll to know that the bill was incredibly unpopular when it was developed and passed. Just look at what happened at all of those town hall meetings during the summer before the bill was passed. Also look at how difficult it was for democrats to pass the bill DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY HAD A FILLIBUSTER-PROOF SENATE MAJORITY AND A MAJORITY IN CONGRESS. Obamacare, more than anything else, led to the huge GOP gains in 2010.
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On September 08 2011 07:01 acker wrote:Show nested quote +in Wisconsin, Republicans have legislated photo IDs while simultaneously shutting Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) offices in Democratic constituencies while at the same time lengthening the hours of operation of DMV offices in GOP constituencies Holy shit. Never thought about gerrymandering that way. This is both awesome and disgusting at the same time. Free talking points combined with skewed election results...will definitely be watching for more stuff like this in the future.
Texas passed a similar law requiring a photo ID to vote, and exempted people above a certain age (I believe 70?) from having to follow it - it should surprise nobody that, over the last decade the 65+ demographic has swung hard GOP. They did this under the guise of stopping voter fraud, even though Perry's own independent panel found that the main source of the extremely small amount of actual voter fraud in Texas had been mail in ballots, but the law did not do anything to restrict this form of voting (surprise: most mail in ballots are for Republicans). I'm not sure if Texas has tried to screw around with DMV hours of operation or not.
Last summer New Hampshire tried to make it more difficult for college students to get state residency and be able to vote. (don't know if this succeeded)
Seems like Republicans aren't confident in their ability to continue selling their message in the mid-long term future -- unsurprising since people under the age of 30 overwhelmingly reject social conservatism, even those with more libertarian economic views.
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On September 08 2011 07:12 Krehlmar wrote:
Well anyone who isn't blind, even a capitalist or such, knows that the republicans are the most devious and calculating manipulators there are.
Christ haven't you people ever watched Fox News? It's propaganda for crying out loud, it fills all the merits.
I say this objectively, nothing I've said is based on prejudice but rather empiric facts that any normal person can track down and prove to be correct.
Not that I am against what you've just said but....you just said that your statement was entirely objective and isn't based on prejudice. Everyone's opinions are prejudice no matter how hard you try. To say otherwise is sort of foolish. I agree that Fox News is full of propaganda but it isn't all bad or biased (alot of it is). Also, trying to find empirical facts about peoples intentions ( IE "the republicans") is paradoxical (even though, in a "perfect" world, it shouldn't be.
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On September 08 2011 08:41 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:35 zimz wrote:On September 08 2011 08:08 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 08 2011 06:49 zimz wrote:
Apple use to have a manufacturing plant where i lived, but a couple years ago they moved manufacturing to China. My friends use to work at the assembly line for Apple. Fuck Apple! Ya, how dare them employ those evil more productive chinese not more productive, but more CHEAP labor. It's not only that but its an American company, who makes most of its money off Americans, but sending the jobs to China instead. use your brain. Productiveness is measured by the output after including incomes and expenses. Given that, Chinese ARE more productive period. You are just being a nationalistic idiot.
Of course i have a problem with it. American companies that make most of their money off Americans, yet not hiring Americans. watching Americas economy go down because of this business tactic, and not wanting it, is logical. it is not idiotic. think before you talk.
Many people on TL is just hating on Americans. Its like a trend or something. im sick of it.
im not surprised gotunk! whos from a 3rd world country. who's probably benefiting from American outsourcing talking shit.
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On September 08 2011 08:38 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:22 Bulldog654 wrote:
I support the Republican party because it is being forced back to its original principles by an ever increasingly involved populace, demanding a return to limited government. The Federal Government has proven itself to be a poor custodian of my money, and now I and others like me are demanding to keep more of our money, and this includes rich people, who always seem to be demonized by those on the left.
In exchange for "taking care of us" by providing many social programs of questionable effectiveness at the cost of the productive, Democrats demand that i cede rights that I will not compromise on. Bottom line even though I'm apparently a fool for having religious beliefs and also lack a sliver of insight, I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government.
Let me state though, for the record I think it is absolutely foolish for anyone in this country to think things will get better for us if only <insert political party> were in power. I am currently supporting the Republican party under the admittedly very foolish hope that they will get the message I and the majority of my voting countrymen are trying to send them. Unfortunately, that same party you support is also the party of extreme right wing, very vocal, ideology that promotes a single religion state, the repeal of women's rights and complete decimation of the middle class. You can say "Well, that's not the republican credo!", and that may be true, but it IS the credo of the wing nuts driving the republican car right now.
People with extreme views fill in the corners of any political party, I see no movement in the Republican party to repeal women's right to vote, and if any bills have been put forth on the issue i'd appreciate a link, and i also haven't heard any calls from the republican party to reduce the middle class by ten percent as you claim. We live in an imperfect world, and if we are foolish idealists (such as myself) that believe there is still a chance to fix things, we have to pick the party that is closest to what we believe right? The fact that people with extreme views also might share some of our less extreme views doesn't mean anything at all and is unavoidable anyway.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On September 08 2011 08:38 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:22 Bulldog654 wrote:
I support the Republican party because it is being forced back to its original principles by an ever increasingly involved populace, demanding a return to limited government. The Federal Government has proven itself to be a poor custodian of my money, and now I and others like me are demanding to keep more of our money, and this includes rich people, who always seem to be demonized by those on the left.
In exchange for "taking care of us" by providing many social programs of questionable effectiveness at the cost of the productive, Democrats demand that i cede rights that I will not compromise on. Bottom line even though I'm apparently a fool for having religious beliefs and also lack a sliver of insight, I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government.
Let me state though, for the record I think it is absolutely foolish for anyone in this country to think things will get better for us if only <insert political party> were in power. I am currently supporting the Republican party under the admittedly very foolish hope that they will get the message I and the majority of my voting countrymen are trying to send them. Unfortunately, that same party you support is also the party of extreme right wing, very vocal, ideology that promotes a single religion state, the repeal of women's rights and complete decimation of the middle class. You can say "Well, that's not the republican credo!", and that may be true, but it IS the credo of the wing nuts driving the republican car right now.
I would have to add that the republican party is the worst possible custodian of money due to their tendency of getting involved in all kinds of wars, needlessly increasing the defense budget, and just generally throwing money out of the window as shown by the recent tea party escapades. Republicans support small government in name only. (Except for the tea party. Those guys do support small government.)
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On September 08 2011 08:51 serge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:38 Brainling wrote:On September 08 2011 08:22 Bulldog654 wrote:
I support the Republican party because it is being forced back to its original principles by an ever increasingly involved populace, demanding a return to limited government. The Federal Government has proven itself to be a poor custodian of my money, and now I and others like me are demanding to keep more of our money, and this includes rich people, who always seem to be demonized by those on the left.
In exchange for "taking care of us" by providing many social programs of questionable effectiveness at the cost of the productive, Democrats demand that i cede rights that I will not compromise on. Bottom line even though I'm apparently a fool for having religious beliefs and also lack a sliver of insight, I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government.
Let me state though, for the record I think it is absolutely foolish for anyone in this country to think things will get better for us if only <insert political party> were in power. I am currently supporting the Republican party under the admittedly very foolish hope that they will get the message I and the majority of my voting countrymen are trying to send them. Unfortunately, that same party you support is also the party of extreme right wing, very vocal, ideology that promotes a single religion state, the repeal of women's rights and complete decimation of the middle class. You can say "Well, that's not the republican credo!", and that may be true, but it IS the credo of the wing nuts driving the republican car right now. Republicans support small government in name only. (Except for the tea party. Those guys do support small government.)
This is exactly right. It's also the reason why Republican politicians got hammered in 2006 and 2008, and the reason why tea party Republicans have been replacing "establishment" Republicans.
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On September 08 2011 08:51 Bulldog654 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:38 Brainling wrote:On September 08 2011 08:22 Bulldog654 wrote:
I support the Republican party because it is being forced back to its original principles by an ever increasingly involved populace, demanding a return to limited government. The Federal Government has proven itself to be a poor custodian of my money, and now I and others like me are demanding to keep more of our money, and this includes rich people, who always seem to be demonized by those on the left.
In exchange for "taking care of us" by providing many social programs of questionable effectiveness at the cost of the productive, Democrats demand that i cede rights that I will not compromise on. Bottom line even though I'm apparently a fool for having religious beliefs and also lack a sliver of insight, I am tired of working and seeing all that money taken from my check and knowing its being wasted by an increasingly corrupt and fat federal government.
Let me state though, for the record I think it is absolutely foolish for anyone in this country to think things will get better for us if only <insert political party> were in power. I am currently supporting the Republican party under the admittedly very foolish hope that they will get the message I and the majority of my voting countrymen are trying to send them. Unfortunately, that same party you support is also the party of extreme right wing, very vocal, ideology that promotes a single religion state, the repeal of women's rights and complete decimation of the middle class. You can say "Well, that's not the republican credo!", and that may be true, but it IS the credo of the wing nuts driving the republican car right now. People with extreme views fill in the corners of any political party, I see no movement in the Republican party to repeal women's right to vote, and if any bills have been put forth on the issue i'd appreciate a link, and i also haven't heard any calls from the republican party to reduce the middle class by ten percent as you claim. We live in an imperfect world, and if we are foolish idealists (such as myself) that believe there is still a chance to fix things, we have to pick the party that is closest to what we believe right? The fact that people with extreme views also might share some of our less extreme views doesn't mean anything at all and is unavoidable anyway.
Do you even pay attention to the stuff people like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman and Rick Perry spout? THESE are the people driving the Republican car right now. Go look at some of the sound bites they've laid out in the last few months.
I'm not talking about people like Mitt Romney or even Ron Paul. I may disagree with their ideas, but I don't find them fundamentally dangerous to our society. The people I listed above on the other hand are fundamentally dangerous to our society. Go ahead and elect one of them, and then come back to this thread in 2013 and see how you feel about that blind republican vote.
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On September 08 2011 08:08 GoTuNk! wrote:
Productiveness is measured by the output after including incomes and expenses. Given that, Chinese ARE more productive period. You are just being a nationalistic idiot.
Wrong. US workers remain far more productive then Chinese workers, by a factor of nearly ten. The industrial output of a typical Chinese industrial worker is around $12,894, while it is $104,606 in the US. Average total compensation from BLS is $58,448 for a US worker, meaning the net output from an average US industrial worker is around 4 times the total output from a Chinese industrial worker.
That does not imply that US workers are any better then workers in China, when similarly trained, rather that the industrial jobs that have remained in America are the highly productive ones in Aerospace and technology.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.nr0.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/03/business/main3228735.shtml
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EPT
