On February 04 2012 12:26 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Please elaborate. You think our spending on the things I listed is beneficial to the economic system you're proposing?
At least attempt a cogent argument instead of using memes.
On February 04 2012 12:26 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Please elaborate. You think our spending on the things I listed is beneficial to the economic system you're proposing?
At least attempt a cogent argument instead of using memes.
he's been trolling for a while now.
no, you didnt bother to read what I wrote when I was being very direct (well that or you lack the reading comprehension skills) so I've changed my delivery method to something you libertarian types can understand.
Imo there is no redeeming quality in today's neo-liberal.. Anti personal liberty, pro world policing / nation building / war, big government, big spending.. At least the old liberal was anti-war..
Imo there is no redeeming quality in today's neo-liberal.. Anti personal liberty, pro world policing / nation building / war, big government, big spending.. At least the old liberal was anti-war..
there is hardly anything "liberal" about obama. don't confuse the two.
Imo there is no redeeming quality in today's neo-liberal.. Anti personal liberty, pro world policing / nation building / war, big government, big spending.. At least the old liberal was anti-war..
These are the true enemies of freedom. Most of these douche bags wrap themselves in the flag and call themselves conservatives... I don't think Gingrich, Romney or Santorum will fall far from the neo liberal tree.
For the record i've found Belgium and Germany (two places i've lived in) far superior in every aspect of life to the US(That i can think of off the top of my head). Romney's whole schpeel about how shitty Europe is is laughable. But then again, that isn't the only nonsensical thing he's said. It's probably because Europe cares about the very poor
Imo there is no redeeming quality in today's neo-liberal.. Anti personal liberty, pro world policing / nation building / war, big government, big spending.. At least the old liberal was anti-war..
there is hardly anything "liberal" about obama. don't confuse the two.
I think you could classify Obama as a neo liberal. There is little difference really between most Democrats, Republicans and neo liberals. They all want the same thing, to erode freedom.
On February 04 2012 13:09 darthfoley wrote: For the record i've found Belgium and Germany (two places i've lived in) far superior in every aspect of life to the US(That i can think of off the top of my head). Romney's whole schpeel about how shitty Europe is is laughable. But then again, that isn't the only nonsensical thing he's said. It's probably because Europe cares about the very poor
Why can't the very poor worry about themselves? The social safety net gives people incentive to be poor. Give these poor people freedom and you couldn't imagine what they could do.
On February 04 2012 12:31 red_b wrote: well I cant fault your for identification of causes, but your understanding of the effects is deeply flawed and based on ideology as opposed to actual statistical inference.
your claim; that imposing a scandanavian system on the US would automatically result in disaster, is CLEARLY conjecture.
unwillingness to test models that work is not surprising coming from someone who buys into the hilarious argument that the models do not scale without any historical basis for it. several empires throughout history scaled up mercantalism which was demonstrated to be flawed and did not fall apart. please provide a historical example of where the scandanavian model was scaled up and failed.
Perhaps I was a bit unclear. The scandinavian countries are successful not because of their current bias towards socialistic systems, but rather they have hit some fortunate timings that have disguised their free market successes. Such a scenario has never played out quite so well in the US.
Nevertheless, the main issue involves the origins upon which the scandinavians have built their current system and the wrongful assumptions that government involvement had anything to do with it. Sweden for example was considerably poor until the 1860's when the industrial revolution swept through and led to huge strides in economic growth. Until the 1950's they were largely free of government intervention and had successfully avoided involvement in WW2, leaving their industries intact. Following this boom was the dramatic increase in welfare legislature and government spending in the 50's-70's that lead to considerable distress and the first ever instance of the Social Democratic Party losing in the general elections. Astrid Lindgren, author of the Pippi Longstocking children's series, even wrote a very well-received satirical piece involving a character named Pomperipossa who wondered why the government took increasingly more as her workload increased. What did happen during that time was the North Sea oil boom which offset the stagnation of it's economy during the 70's and kickstarted several petroleum-based industries throughout Europe. The success they're witnessing now is directly related to that oil boom of the late 60's combined with a transparent government that spends wisely on a demographic that is largely homogeneous in it's desires and needs. These are factors that have not been afforded to the US.
Imo there is no redeeming quality in today's neo-liberal.. Anti personal liberty, pro world policing / nation building / war, big government, big spending.. At least the old liberal was anti-war..
there is hardly anything "liberal" about obama. don't confuse the two.
I think you could classify Obama as a neo liberal. There is little difference really between most Democrats, Republicans and neo liberals. They all want the same thing, to erode freedom.
No you can't. He is a conservative and lover of the status quo. It's just that the US political system has basterdised the political spectrum to garner votes from the uneducated masses who have strong emotional feelings attached to certian political ideaologies. Hence the use of 'socalist' and 'liberal' as attacks on ones character.
On February 04 2012 13:09 darthfoley wrote: For the record i've found Belgium and Germany (two places i've lived in) far superior in every aspect of life to the US(That i can think of off the top of my head). Romney's whole schpeel about how shitty Europe is is laughable. But then again, that isn't the only nonsensical thing he's said. It's probably because Europe cares about the very poor
Why can't the very poor worry about themselves? The social safety net gives people incentive to be poor. Give these poor people freedom and you couldn't imagine what they could do.
I'm sure the very poor worry about themselves, but to say you're worried about the middle class (the majority of americans) and disclude the very poor is rather stupid. Safety nets? Like food stamps and medicaid? That's hardly an incentive to be dirt poor and barely able to feed your family.
On February 04 2012 12:19 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Additionally, let's not fool ourselves. The primary reason the scandinavians have been economically successful is because of the capitalistic sale of oil. The North Sea oil boom of the 60's-70's lead to a hundred-fold increase in oil production for Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, etc. This coincided with several social reforms being passed and unfortunately, they have taken the majority of the credit for the economic successes within these countries.
What about the rest fo Scandinavia? As in Sweden and Finland, two countries frequently at or around the top of international global indexes? They don't have a North Sea oil income. I understand the points about homogenisation and difference in scale, but these two countries were able to undergo large-scale reforms and turn themselves into modern, albeit small, countries with high literacy and quality of life.
I just never understand how people from the US can throw around things like 'Scandinavian' and 'socialism' as insults and expect others to see it that way. You have an argument for why you don't think Scandinavian-style governance (as much as that means, it is four different countries after all, and doesn't include the Netherlands or Germany) is applicable to the US, but many people don't bother thinking that far. On a similar note I've seen people throw the accusation at Obama that he's a socialist (he's not - most in the US don't know what socialism is. If they did they would know that Obama is in no danger of making the US into a socialist country), and they seem to think it's an insult.
On February 04 2012 12:19 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Additionally, let's not fool ourselves. The primary reason the scandinavians have been economically successful is because of the capitalistic sale of oil. The North Sea oil boom of the 60's-70's lead to a hundred-fold increase in oil production for Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, etc. This coincided with several social reforms being passed and unfortunately, they have taken the majority of the credit for the economic successes within these countries.
What about the rest fo Scandinavia? As in Sweden and Finland, two countries frequently at or around the top of international global indexes? They don't have a North Sea oil income. I understand the points about homogenisation and difference in scale, but these two countries were able to undergo large-scale reforms and turn themselves into modern, albeit small, countries with high literacy and quality of life.
I just never understand how people from the US can throw around things like 'Scandinavian' and 'socialism' as insults and expect others to see it that way. You have an argument for why you don't think Scandinavian-style governance (as much as that means, it is four different countries after all, and doesn't include the Netherlands or Germany) is applicable to the US, but many people don't bother thinking that far. On a similar note I've seen people throw the accusation at Obama that he's a socialist (he's not - most in the US don't know what socialism is. If they did they would know that Obama is in no danger of making the US into a socialist country), and they seem to think it's an insult.
It's the American pioneering ideaology. They think their way is the best and their system of government is infalliable.
On February 04 2012 13:09 darthfoley wrote: For the record i've found Belgium and Germany (two places i've lived in) far superior in every aspect of life to the US(That i can think of off the top of my head). Romney's whole schpeel about how shitty Europe is is laughable. But then again, that isn't the only nonsensical thing he's said. It's probably because Europe cares about the very poor
Why can't the very poor worry about themselves? The social safety net gives people incentive to be poor. Give these poor people freedom and you couldn't imagine what they could do.
I'm sure the very poor worry about themselves, but to say you're worried about the middle class (the majority of americans) and disclude the very poor is rather stupid. Safety nets? Like food stamps and medicaid? That's hardly an incentive to be dirt poor and barely able to feed your family.
@santimonious: I've never insulted Scandinavian countries. In many ways they have more freedom than the US. This is something quite admirable. Do I think that there are parts of their systems steeped in hive-mind collectivism that could use improvement? Absolutely. Look a few posts above for the origins of success within Sweden.
I would argue that the vast majority of their success have resulted from North Sea hydrocarbon production. Naturally, people don't like to admit that private companies working for profit have a diffusive dynamic with regard to their wealth and the economic success of nearby countries. Instead, most choose to attribute success with the ideals they know best, in this case, morality based on Christian ideology that stresses the importance of providing for your neighbor.
Imo there is no redeeming quality in today's neo-liberal.. Anti personal liberty, pro world policing / nation building / war, big government, big spending.. At least the old liberal was anti-war..
These are the true enemies of freedom. Most of these douche bags wrap themselves in the flag and call themselves conservatives... I don't think Gingrich, Romney or Santorum will fall far from the neo liberal tree.
Same goes for religion imo.. There's so much religious pandering nowadays..
This is only a self proclaimed Christian nation.. Islam is a religion of peace, as is Christianity. They do not hate us for our freedoms. Extremists are born through violence, violence begets violence..
On February 04 2012 12:31 red_b wrote: well I cant fault your for identification of causes, but your understanding of the effects is deeply flawed and based on ideology as opposed to actual statistical inference.
your claim; that imposing a scandanavian system on the US would automatically result in disaster, is CLEARLY conjecture.
unwillingness to test models that work is not surprising coming from someone who buys into the hilarious argument that the models do not scale without any historical basis for it. several empires throughout history scaled up mercantalism which was demonstrated to be flawed and did not fall apart. please provide a historical example of where the scandanavian model was scaled up and failed.
Perhaps I was a bit unclear. The scandinavian countries are successful not because of their current bias towards socialistic systems, but rather they have hit some fortunate timings that have disguised their free market successes. Such a scenario has never played out quite so well in the US.
Nevertheless, the main issue involves the origins upon which the scandinavians have built their current system and the wrongful assumptions that government involvement had anything to do with it. Sweden for example was considerably poor until the 1860's when the industrial revolution swept through and led to huge strides in economic growth. Until the 1950's they were largely free of government intervention and had successfully avoided involvement in WW2, leaving their industries intact. Following this boom was the dramatic increase in welfare legislature and government spending in the 50's-70's that lead to considerable distress and the first ever instance of the Social Democratic Party losing in the general elections. Astrid Lindgren, author of the Pippi Longstocking children's series, even wrote a very well-received satirical piece involving a character named Pomperipossa who wondered why the government took increasingly more as her workload increased. What did happen during that time was the North Sea oil boom which offset the stagnation of it's economy during the 70's and kickstarted several petroleum-based industries throughout Europe. The success they're witnessing now is directly related to that oil boom of the late 60's combined with a transparent government that spends wisely on a demographic that is largely homogeneous in it's desires and needs. These are factors that have not been afforded to the US.
Uh, when did Sweden get their hands on north-sea oil? Take a look at the map.
As I clearly stated, the North Sea oil boom kickstarted several industries throughout Europe that were heavily dependent on hydrocarbon production. It was indirectly "brought in" through increased trading and collaboration with nearby producing countries experiencing huge profits. Sweden was heavily involved in many engineering aspects, transportation, and petrochemical processes. Sweden is currently trying to reduce the dependency of their economy on oil by diversifying in other areas. Göteborg, Stenungsund and Lysekil still remain areas largely involved in petroleum.
If you want to live under a rock and ignore the facts, that's fine by me.
Most people have tens of thousands of 9th cousins. What a ridiculously stupid point to make. Obviously because they are so minisculely related it means they are the exact same politician /rollseye
Your stupid propaganda posts just make me want to vote for RP less and less, and a few months ago he was my 2nd choice behind Hunstman
Say all you want but, get angry at the news report in CBS not me. Anyways, Huntsman was a dick towards Paul when he was running in NH. Also, the Huntsman Campaign may have been behind that racist video that was supposedly posted under the Paul campaign. They basically false flagged it and used a Karl Rove strategy to make them look bad:
On February 04 2012 12:45 red_b wrote: no, you didnt bother to read what I wrote when I was being very direct (well that or you lack the reading comprehension skills) so I've changed my delivery method to something you libertarian types can understand.
Ugh, you've made many good points...please don't resort to a sort of "appeal to authority" approach or change your respectable arguments. Plus, econometrics is a a great thing, but it too has its flaws. Furthermore, I do agree with you with regards to healthcare but I still feel the effect is exaggerated, going back to the fact that healthcare in America "should" be more expensive given the lifestyle. And, Romney is so much like Obama it isn't funny to me. There wouldn't be too much difference and thus I don't see how he will "really tank things" anymore than our current president, though it's neither of their faults.
I hope you return to the things you were saying before which were less argumentative and more constructive.