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United States2258 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote: See my edit about consensus. Not possible with scientists.
See my edit in response.
On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote:Politicians strive for the most profit, scientists strive to be the only one who is right... so considering politics, we are better off with politicians than with scientists :p
And yet scientific consensus is still formed on many things.
If anything, scientists probably have an easier time compromising than politicians do.
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On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work. The only way scientists and engineers talk to each other is through arguments on who is the better and if you assign two scientists/engineers on one project without supervision it will never finish because both will argue forever on which is the best approach to start. You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats  EDIT: About "consensus"... in a group of X scientists and engineers, there are exactly X+1 opinons on the right choice and everyone is convinced that exactly X of the other opinions are totally wrong and will ruin everything. You see, this is how the current political system works. You have all these politicians who are completely devoted to their ideologies, basically assuming that their way is the right way.
A true technocracy would form open debates on all subjects of interest and through discussion conclude the best knowable solution. The debate would be moderated by strictly rational constructs and any biased, irrational or bad argument would simply be dismissed as insufficient. Once you've eliminated all the irrational arguments you've reached the consensus point where any rational person has to agree with the conclusion. These debates could be very extensive and would require a lot of revising and moderating but that is exactly what we need in a modern society. Today's politicians are literally walking logical fallacies who get elected by equally irrational, fallable and misinformed individuals.
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On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 20:25 sunprince wrote:On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote: If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work. Have you seen politicians in a team? On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats  Or you just have the scientists and engineers vote on who is in charge of specific projects. See my edit about consensus. Not possible with scientists. Politicians strive for the most profit, scientists strive to be the only one who is right... so considering politics, we are better off with politicians than with scientists :p What world are you living in? I would claim that the exact opposite is true. Politicians form their ideologies before the election and then construct arguments to defend them. A true scientific approach would be to say "If I get elected I'll do my best to find the best solution to all our problems through scientific inquiry and research." and basically adhere to no ideology whatsoever.
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United States2258 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:33 Diks wrote:Can someone please bring a realistical definition of politician ? Because as a non-expert I might say shit 
A politician is an individual who governs from public office. A career politician is a person who specializes in achieving/maintaining public office and influencing public policy using that office.
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Yes it would, hell in theory comunism might be even better but in practice no. Every and i mean EVERY kind of leadership is formed of mainly thieves, retards and ppl lead by there own interest, democracy just make sure we change the thieves that lead once in a while so that we can't have someone like... so many examples i can't chose.... Stalin, Hitler,Constantine and OH so many others lead a country for 50 years and lead it to ruin... they can only do so for about 4 years. Technocracy is a great concept but you know who will end up leading ? Brats that payed for a diploma... i think there were actually technocrat countries for short periods of time so just look what happened to them.
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United States22883 Posts
I've already bit off more than I want to chew today in the Bear thread and a few more places, so I'll just say 'no', and then leave you with this essay by George Orwell.
+ Show Spoiler + George Orwell
What is Science?
In last week's Tribune, there was an interesting letter from Mr. J. Stewart Cook, in which he suggested that the best way of avoiding the danger of a ‘scientific hierarchy’ would be to see to it that every member of the general public was, as far as possible, scientifically educated. At the same time, scientists should be brought out of their isolation and encouraged to take a greater part in politics and administration.
As a general statement, I think most of us would agree with this, but I notice that, as usual, Mr. Cook does not define science, and merely implies in passing that it means certain exact sciences whose experiments can be made under laboratory conditions. Thus, adult education tends ‘to neglect scientific studies in favour of literary, economic and social subjects’, economics and sociology not being regarded as branches of science. Apparently. This point is of great importance. For the word science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.
Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact. If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, ‘What is science?’ you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say ‘science’ they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a ‘man of science’: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.
This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one's approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist's political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a ‘scientist’, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.
But is it really true that a ‘scientist’, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test — the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that ‘Science is international’, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up.
On the other hand, what happened to German literature when the Nazis came to power? I believe no exhaustive lists have been published, but I imagine that the number of German scientists — Jews apart — who voluntarily exiled themselves or were persecuted by the règime was much smaller than the number of writers and journalists. More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of ‘racial science’. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady's The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.
But, in slightly different forms, it is the same picture everywhere. In England, a large proportion of our leading scientists accept the structure of capitalist society, as can be seen from the comparative freedom with which they are given knighthoods, baronetcies and even peerages. Since Tennyson, no English writer worth reading — one might, perhaps, make an exception of Sir Max Beerbohm — has been given a title. And those English scientists who do not simply accept the status quo are frequently Communists, which means that, however intellectually scrupulous they may be in their own line of work, they are ready to be uncritical and even dishonest on certain subjects. The fact is that a mere training in one or more of the exact sciences, even combined with very high gifts, is no guarantee of a humane or sceptical outlook. The physicists of half a dozen great nations, all feverishly and secretly working away at the atomic bomb, are a demonstration of this. But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.
Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularize, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words — more facts. The idea that science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist — what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?
A hundred years ago, Charles Kingsley described science as ‘making nasty smell in a laboratory’. A year or two ago a young industrial chemist informed me, smugly, that he ‘could not see what was the use of poetry’. So the pendulum swings to and fro, but it does not seem to me that one attitude is any better than the other. At the moment, science is on the upgrade, and so we hear, quite rightly, the claim that the masses should be scientifically educated: we do not hear, as we ought, the counter-claim that the scientists themselves would benefit by a little education. Just before writing this, I saw in an American magazine the statement that a number of British and American physicists refused from the start to do research on the atomic bomb, well knowing what use would be made of it. Here you have a group of same men in the middle of a world of lunatics. And though no names were published, I think it would be a safe guess that all of them were people with some kind of general cultural background, some acquaintance with history or literature or the arts — in short, people whose interests were not, in the current sense of the word, purely scientific.
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On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 20:25 sunprince wrote:On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote: If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work. Have you seen politicians in a team? On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats  Or you just have the scientists and engineers vote on who is in charge of specific projects. See my edit about consensus. Not possible with scientists. Politicians strive for the most profit, scientists strive to be the only one who is right... so considering politics, we are better off with politicians than with scientists :p
If provided with sufficient evidence, there can be massive consensus among scientist. Much unlike how the political system works today.
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On August 12 2011 20:48 Aterons_toss wrote: Yes it would, hell in theory comunism might be even better but in practice no. Every and i mean EVERY kind of leadership is formed of mainly thieves, retards and ppl lead by there own interest, democracy just make sure we change the thieves that lead once in a while so that we can't have someone like... so many examples i can't chose.... Stalin, Hitler,Constantine and OH so many others lead a country for 50 years and lead it to ruin...
You can do the same thing in a technocracy.
Technocracy is a great concept but you know who will end up leading ? Brats that payed for a diploma... i think there were actually technocrat countries for short periods of time so just look what happened to them.
Please read my previous post on this page. A "brat with a payed for diploma" would have to be able to stand up in a proper, rational debate against other scientists and the public. You've made two strawman arguments against technocracy in your post - got any more?
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United States2258 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:48 Aterons_toss wrote: Technocracy is a great concept but you know who will end up leading ? Brats that payed for a diploma... i think there were actually technocrat countries for short periods of time so just look what happened to them.
Modern-day China is fairly technocratic given that most of the leaders of this generation happen to be technocrats. Considering where China was when they started, they're doing pretty damn well.
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@Jibba
1. That man died 60 years ago 2. That man thought of the current world having dominated by the Big Brother for the past 3 decades 3. "Scientists" are not mutually exclusive from engineers, doctors and economists. 4. Hes a writer, he is subjected to the bias he hypocritically speaks of. Technocracy does not imply perfection. 5. Holy crap is George Orwell overhyped.
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On August 12 2011 20:50 Jibba wrote:I've already bit off more than I want to chew today in the Bear thread and a few more places, so I'll just say 'no', and then leave you with this essay by George Orwell. + Show Spoiler + George Orwell
What is Science?
In last week's Tribune, there was an interesting letter from Mr. J. Stewart Cook, in which he suggested that the best way of avoiding the danger of a ‘scientific hierarchy’ would be to see to it that every member of the general public was, as far as possible, scientifically educated. At the same time, scientists should be brought out of their isolation and encouraged to take a greater part in politics and administration.
As a general statement, I think most of us would agree with this, but I notice that, as usual, Mr. Cook does not define science, and merely implies in passing that it means certain exact sciences whose experiments can be made under laboratory conditions. Thus, adult education tends ‘to neglect scientific studies in favour of literary, economic and social subjects’, economics and sociology not being regarded as branches of science. Apparently. This point is of great importance. For the word science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.
Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact. If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, ‘What is science?’ you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say ‘science’ they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a ‘man of science’: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.
This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one's approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist's political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a ‘scientist’, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.
But is it really true that a ‘scientist’, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test — the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that ‘Science is international’, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up.
On the other hand, what happened to German literature when the Nazis came to power? I believe no exhaustive lists have been published, but I imagine that the number of German scientists — Jews apart — who voluntarily exiled themselves or were persecuted by the règime was much smaller than the number of writers and journalists. More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of ‘racial science’. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady's The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.
But, in slightly different forms, it is the same picture everywhere. In England, a large proportion of our leading scientists accept the structure of capitalist society, as can be seen from the comparative freedom with which they are given knighthoods, baronetcies and even peerages. Since Tennyson, no English writer worth reading — one might, perhaps, make an exception of Sir Max Beerbohm — has been given a title. And those English scientists who do not simply accept the status quo are frequently Communists, which means that, however intellectually scrupulous they may be in their own line of work, they are ready to be uncritical and even dishonest on certain subjects. The fact is that a mere training in one or more of the exact sciences, even combined with very high gifts, is no guarantee of a humane or sceptical outlook. The physicists of half a dozen great nations, all feverishly and secretly working away at the atomic bomb, are a demonstration of this. But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.
Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularize, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words — more facts. The idea that science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist — what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?
A hundred years ago, Charles Kingsley described science as ‘making nasty smell in a laboratory’. A year or two ago a young industrial chemist informed me, smugly, that he ‘could not see what was the use of poetry’. So the pendulum swings to and fro, but it does not seem to me that one attitude is any better than the other. At the moment, science is on the upgrade, and so we hear, quite rightly, the claim that the masses should be scientifically educated: we do not hear, as we ought, the counter-claim that the scientists themselves would benefit by a little education. Just before writing this, I saw in an American magazine the statement that a number of British and American physicists refused from the start to do research on the atomic bomb, well knowing what use would be made of it. Here you have a group of same men in the middle of a world of lunatics. And though no names were published, I think it would be a safe guess that all of them were people with some kind of general cultural background, some acquaintance with history or literature or the arts — in short, people whose interests were not, in the current sense of the word, purely scientific. TLDR: Scientists can be un-scientific aswell!
Well, that's not an argument against technocracy. Any decision in a technocracy would be subject to scrutiny from scientists in any field as well from the public - once all the arguments have been put forth we will have a "winning" decision. If you are a rational person you would have to agree with this decision or put forth your argument as to why it is wrong.
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Politically, those in power would likely be just as abusive and corrupt.
Socially however, this could potentially be awesome. It could place a tremendous amount of emphasis on education and an educated public would be much more capable of holding their leaders accountable and to high standards.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
In theory a Technocracy would be a good thing. But only in so far as you are just defining technical competence as a form of merit, and therefore proposing what is essentially a specific form of meritocracy.
The problem, as with all political systems, is in the execution. How exactly DO you get the experts in charge? Do you do it by vote(eg democracy)? a weighted voting system where people who are more technically able have a higher weighting on their votes? Do experts in their various fields decide who represents them? Universities? etc. The problem that arises, is exactly the same problem that every existing political system has, it is not the political system that is flawed, but the execution of said system due to human nature.
What is essentially being asked, is would a specific form of meritocracy be better than systems that are not meritocracies. Only an idiot would disagree, obviously by definition, in a meritocracy, those who have merit are in charge. A technocracy is merely defining merit in terms of technical ability. It is only really a meaningful question to ask HOW we can implement a technocracy(or any other form of meritocracy).
As an abstract aside a Democracy can be looked at as a form of meritocracy, where merit is defined as the ability to attract the most (or the right) votes. While the definition of merit is a bit wonky in a democracy, it is conceptually an interesting abstraction of a meritocracy to look at.
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I'm down as long as mathematicians get to be in charge of numbers.
In all seriousness, the biggest problem with the idea is that academia is self-selecting over time. I can see some really bad things happening if, for example, psychology, political science and gender studies majors were the ones calling the shots on criminal law, diplomacy and gender politics decisions. The downfall of "peer review" in non-scientific fields is that it already has the potential to filter out things the group of leading PHDs don't see any merit in.
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An autistocracy beats both.
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Well, that's not an argument against technocracy. Any decision in a technocracy would be subject to scrutiny from scientists in any field as well from the public - once all the arguments have been put forth we will have a "winning" decision. If you are a rational person you would have to agree with this decision or put forth your argument as to why it is wrong.
Science is not the pinnacle of objectiveness and understanding that many mistaken it for. At least when it comes to complex systems such as economy or medicine. There is always a human bias.
Take the example in my quote. If we were to select a committee of scientists from various fields and backgrounds - how would we do this? Who gets to decide which scientist has merit and which doesn't? The people in charge of selecting the committee are inevitably going to be biased.
In all seriousness, the biggest problem with the idea is that academia is self-selecting over time.
This is also very important. Academia is also subject to human bias and inclinations, and the tendency is towards unification of opinions instead of diversification.
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United States2258 Posts
On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote: Science is not the pinnacle of objectiveness and understanding that many mistaken it for. At least when it comes to complex systems such as economy or medicine. There is always a human bias.
Voters in a democracy are biased too, and probably moreso than scientists.
Are scientists are flawless and perfectly objective? No. Are they better at policy-making than the ignorant public? Hell yes.
On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote: Take the example in my quote. If we were to select a committee of scientists from various fields and backgrounds - how would we do this? Who gets to decide which scientist has merit and which doesn't? The people in charge of selecting the committee are inevitably going to be biased.
We already have the National Academies, who already advise our political leaders. All they'd have to do is vote on representatives. We also already have bureaucracies staffed by technocrats. All they'd have to do is be given more autonomy.
On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote: This is also very important. Academia is also subject to human bias and inclinations, and the tendency is towards unification of opinions instead of diversification.
Such is the nature of all human thought, not just academics.
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Bad idea
Knowing a lot about a certain field in no way prepares you for leading such a field.
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On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote:Show nested quote +Well, that's not an argument against technocracy. Any decision in a technocracy would be subject to scrutiny from scientists in any field as well from the public - once all the arguments have been put forth we will have a "winning" decision. If you are a rational person you would have to agree with this decision or put forth your argument as to why it is wrong. Science is not the pinnacle of objectiveness and understanding that many mistaken it for. At least when it comes to complex systems such as economy or medicine. There is always a human bias . I'm not sure what you're getting at. The scientific approach is the best approach we as humans can have. Stating that there is always a human bias doesn't really add much to the discussion. Yes, I agree, human bias is quite common. Rational debate can easily extract these biases thus rendering them mute.
Take the example in my quote. If we were to select a committee of scientists from various fields and backgrounds - how would we do this? Who gets to decide which scientist has merit and which doesn't? The people in charge of selecting the committee are inevitably going to be biased. How? I don't know, ask someone who has a relevant education. There is no reason to believe that it is impossible or even very complicated for that matter. A committee of thousands of merited scientists would have a lot of biases - all rendered mute simply through rational debate. Selecting the committee could be a democratic process (Which is inherently biased aswell).
Not sure what your argument against technocracy is.
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United States2258 Posts
On August 12 2011 21:28 zalz wrote: Knowing a lot about a certain field in no way prepares you for leading such a field.
No, but it prepares you to vote on decisions made in such a field, which is the point of a technocracy.
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