EPTSomalia - Success of Anarchy - Page 2
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
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Cyba
Romania221 Posts
Anarchy is an inexistant system saying their gov isn't strong is very far from them beeing in an anarchy. If anything it's the success of a crapy democracy compared to other similar countries where the dictators bleed the people out of their money to make superexpensive boats. | ||
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Cyba
Romania221 Posts
On July 01 2011 13:04 xarthaz wrote: The piracy is a display of free market enterprising - while one may not morally agree with it, it shows the fast adapting cheap operating cost efficient nature of free market solution as they battle against the lumbering slow western multi billion dollar army warships that struggle to do anything of note to protect the commerce payloads, while operating at insane costs several magnitudes above the pirates.Truly a david vs goliath story. Ye they invented piracy didn't they ? :D | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
Ranking #182 out of #194 nations in life expectancy (Right above Nigeria, Rwanda, and Afghanistan), where over a quarter children die in their first five years of life, where over a third of the population lacks access to safe drinking water, and 17% are starving... Truly, a libertarian paradise. Seriously, as another poster suggested, why can't we round up all the libertarians, and ship them there? | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
But wait. Are they so well to do after all? It can be looked at from a radically different angle: On July 01 2011 13:01 Elegy wrote: Awesome to see this, I'm glad that of all the wealthy, prosperous, and well-to-do nations in the world such as Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and the United States, there is a single example where a failed state has a thriving telecoms market. Can we make a thread and list dozens of nations where a mixture of state capitalism has produced a standard of living that far exceeds anything ever seen in Somalia (which has had 20 years of anarchy, pretty good amount of time!) or would that detract from the awesomeness that is anarchy in action? | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
On July 01 2011 13:04 xarthaz wrote: The piracy is a display of free market enterprising - while one may not morally agree with it, it shows the fast adapting cheap operating cost efficient nature of free market solution as they battle against the lumbering slow western multi billion dollar army warships that struggle to do anything of note to protect the commerce payloads, while operating at insane costs several magnitudes above the pirates.Truly a david vs goliath story. Something tells me that you might also believe that the government was behind 9/11, or that Osama Bin Laden was actually killed many years ago. | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On July 01 2011 13:10 Nightfall.589 wrote: Somalia's indeed the poster child for a successful state. Ranking #182 out of #194 nations in life expectancy (Right above Nigeria, Rwanda, and Afghanistan), where over a quarter children die in their first five years of life, where over a third of the population lacks access to safe drinking water, and 17% are starving... Truly, a libertarian paradise. Please the read the OP before posting. How dare you ignore the thriving...telecommunications market...in your list of dastardly statistics! -_______- On July 01 2011 13:10 xarthaz wrote: But wait. Are they so well to do after all? It can be looked at from a radically different angle: I'm sitting in an air conditioned room watching a funny movie with a full stomach and a reasonably healthy bank account that allows me to buy a good amount of the stuff I don't need but buy anyway, only to admittedly occasionally regret it later. I have extensive civil liberties (because I actually know my rights!) and don't have to fear for my freedoms, rights, property, or life. Yeah, it's pretty decent | ||
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Drium
United States888 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On July 01 2011 12:57 partisan wrote: This is a joke right? Surely there is not a single sane person that looks at Somalia as a success story. Yea, 20 years of endless violence where its citizens have to turn to piracy to make money. But apparently the US is at fault again, which is great because I was beginning to miss that dead horse. ^ This. I can't believe I just read an argument of progress due to a lack of an able instated government via a country more responsible for murder and terror annually than the ones the United States are currently at war with. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On July 01 2011 13:11 Elegy wrote: Please the read the OP before posting. How dare you ignore the thriving...telecommunications market...in your list of dastardly statistics! -_______- Congo is thriving with silicon and so many other resources but I doubt we want to live there. Not 100 percent relevant to Somalia, but rather relevant to Africa in general. | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
I did. I'm glad that their thriving telecom industry makes up for the fact that only 13% of boy children (And 7% of girl children) receive a primary education in that country! And the gift of a state would ruin the country's free market utopia. We can't allow that! | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On July 01 2011 13:13 Nightfall.589 wrote: I did. I'm glad that their thriving telecom industry makes up for the fact that only 13% of boy children (And 7% of girl children) receive a primary education in that country! And the gift of a state would ruin the country's free market utopia. We can't allow that! Yes but...they can make phone calls. From anywhere. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
I suppose relative to the rest of Africa it doesn't take much to look successful though. | ||
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Suisen
256 Posts
Their solution is to use Somalia as an example that free markets work? Amazing if people buy it. I am a libertarian socialist which you can call an anarchist. Somalia is a failed state in chaos and civil war. It has nothing to do with actual forms of anarchy because a real anarchy can only function with a strong civil society. War will instantly destroy an anarchist society. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
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Sanctimonius
United Kingdom861 Posts
The study talks about the seperation between the north and the south - Somaliland in the north is a proto-state. It tries to operate with a cenralised currency, it has infrastructure and investment while not interfering with the things that work - obviously agriculture and law has worked for centuries in this area without a central authority, they are doing well enough leaving it alone. But in the south, piracy is on the increase. These networks and developed communites are preying on the weak and raiding what they can from other sources, if not themselves. Southern Somalia has realised that without an authority to limit them, they are free to take it upon themselves to do what they wish. With a legal system that relies on the strong social ties they have, attacking each other has penalties they aren't prepared to face. But raiding neighbours, raiding passing shipping lanes with no real legal consequences to themselves? Sure. Prop up an anarchistic society with the proceeds from other nations and it seems to keep going. I also question this idea of doing well. Somalia isn't doing well, it's doing better. Sure, it has improved since the awful days of civil warfare and corrupt governments. It's doing generally better than neighbouring countries with repressive governments of their own. But these are relative ideas - there is little scope to improve the country of the lot of the people there. Their lives are functioning, their society keeps going, but there is no real chance to develop the country. Are taxes being collected and spent on public works like hospitals, roads, schools? Only in the north, Somaliland. Basically the entire study can boil down to this: Repressive regimes suck for you. No government can work better than a terrible government. There is nothing to say that this system is better than good government. I would also dispute the presence of foreign investment being a sign of progress. It merely means foreign investors see a sign of profit. To sue the example of Coca Cola, never a company to baulk at shirking local laws, maybe they realised that without a central authority trying to impose such silly ideals as 'basic wage' or 'safe practices' they could make and sell Cola to other countries using impoverished labourers in an unsafe environment. This is, of course, not necessarily what is happening here. Maybe Cola is going in with the intention of creating a safe work environment and good wages for the workers there. I'm merely trying to say it's not necessarily a sign of something good. | ||
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OsoVega
926 Posts
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On July 01 2011 13:11 ploy wrote: Something tells me that you might also believe that the government was behind 9/11, or that Osama Bin Laden was actually killed many years ago. On July 01 2011 13:11 Elegy wrote: Please the read the OP before posting. How dare you ignore the thriving...telecommunications market...in your list of dastardly statistics! -_______- I'm sitting in an air conditioned room watching a funny movie with a full stomach and a reasonably healthy bank account that allows me to buy a good amount of the stuff I don't need but buy anyway, only to admittedly occasionally regret it later. I have extensive civil liberties (because I actually know my rights!) and don't have to fear for my freedoms, rights, property, or life. Yeah, it's pretty decent On July 01 2011 13:10 Nightfall.589 wrote: Somalia's indeed the poster child for a successful state. Ranking #182 out of #194 nations in life expectancy (Right above Nigeria, Rwanda, and Afghanistan), where over a quarter children die in their first five years of life, where over a third of the population lacks access to safe drinking water, and 17% are starving... Truly, a libertarian paradise. Seriously, as another poster suggested, why can't we round up all the libertarians, and ship them there? Non Sequiturs. While these posts make arguments - it doesnt address the argument of the article. In fact the article assumed this type of answer and hence preemptively touched on the subject and presented its claim in a different form. In a time differential analysis rather than static value analysis. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15488 Posts
You guys act like there is something unnatural that happens to make anarchy not work, as if aliens come down and force us into governments. There is nothing external or unnatural about how the world currently is. We are all humans, and no higher beings have changed our development. "state of nature" is bunch of crap because it assumes only certain parts of humanity are natural -_- | ||
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