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Milkis
5003 Posts
On July 02 2011 00:17 xarthaz wrote: It is you, who thus far has not understood the true nature of the state. I recommend you watch the video again, and think about the subject. Aren't you the one who is enslaved by your own blind idea of how the world should be? :p | ||
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Roflhaxx
Korea (South)1244 Posts
On July 01 2011 13:04 xarthaz wrote: The piracy is a display of free market enterprising - while one may not morally agree with it, it shows the fast adapting cheap operating cost efficient nature of free market solution as they battle against the lumbering slow western multi billion dollar army warships that struggle to do anything of note to protect the commerce payloads, while operating at insane costs several magnitudes above the pirates.Truly a david vs goliath story. thing is, it's easier to do piracy than to capture a pirate. It's like I can go rob someone's house and unless the cops are next door I am long gone before they come. Plus if those warships were allowed to open fire on any boats they suspected of being pirates you would see a lot less pirates, trust me. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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Andross
Colombia50 Posts
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On July 02 2011 00:17 xarthaz wrote: It is you, who thus far has not understood the true nature of the state. I recommend you watch the video again, and think about the subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A That's the kind of stuff that plays on your fears and makes you feel enlightened (unlike everyone else, those ignorant fools!) Sorry but it's just a load of bullshit. | ||
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winter017
United States103 Posts
The success of Anarchy can be seen in Somalia? Give me the most socialist controlling government ever then. Sorry government does have a purpose and it is laughable that anyone calls Somalia a success | ||
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candh
Canada8 Posts
Yawn. | ||
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 02 2011 00:16 mcc wrote: Problem is they actually are similar in what they want, they just differ in what they think will happen in that stateless society. Both want to eliminate the state. And after that they think the utopia they envision will come. no it isn't. because an anarchist society is not one without rules but without hierarchy, while a libertiarian one is a society without rules but with hierarchy. but i will stop takling about it, because people don't want to acknowledge the difference anyway. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
That's the kind of stuff that plays on your fears and makes you feel enlightened (unlike everyone else, those ignorant fools!) Sorry but it's just a load of bullshit. Radical libertarians have to redefine slavery in order to say that we're all enslaved. | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On July 02 2011 00:23 Milkis wrote: Aren't you the one who is enslaved by your own blind idea of how the world should be? :p On July 02 2011 01:02 Gamegene wrote: That's the kind of stuff that plays on your fears and makes you feel enlightened (unlike everyone else, those ignorant fools!) Sorry but it's just a load of bullshit. Where is the blindness - for as i noted in my deep philosophical ramblings beforehand - the idea Molyneux talks about is true. It is strictly, and definitionally true, because redefining the terms that lead to its conclusions in a different way, is absurd and counter to the perception of those ideas that the mind assumes as a synthetic a priori. Do not feel bad BlackFlag, know that the libertarians feel sympathetic to left libertarianism/anarchosyndicalism. It is merely that it is a death wish. On July 01 2011 17:55 Expurgate wrote: Anarcho-libertarian claims are always ludicrous. By the second year of an economics degree these days you'll know half a dozen reasons that some government or universal coverage is necessary in fields like insurance or liability or information. Universal coverage would imply monopoly status and thus you have a pseudo-government situation, even if you're in the freest market ever. There's little point arguing with such claims. No matter what, libertarians will mewl about being misunderstood or misrepresented. Give them object counter-evidence and they will reduce it to a single point of contention, to be discarded after a thorough treatment with a strawman argument. The rest of us normal human beings don't arbitrarily select two philosophical principles and a handful of mostly-discredited economic theories and build a worldview upon them. On July 01 2011 23:01 Milkis wrote: The problem with libertarianism is that it only look at the world only through the lens of basic human rights. Essentially it claims that these "basic" human rights can be protected through the free market and the free market will always reign supreme. Both of these are fallacies. Libertarianism is probably most spoon fed political opinion. You can claim to be open minded in reality you're just talking about subject fields you have no clue what you are talking about except what you may read on mises.org or whatever people read now. You have no idea how the free market works other than this idealistic super duper long run point of view that in the end humans aren't stupid enough to kill themselves cause they will correct themselves. Which is true but it is absolutely shitty and worthless for doing anything policy wise and you celebrating the shortrun chaos in Somalia just based on a few cherry picked statistics literally tell me you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this entire ideology. Let's put it this way. Libertarianism is a nice trap for younger kids because it sounds so nice and "it makes sense" because it's based on basic economic principles. The issue with most people following this ideology is that they never get past the basic economic principles and they don't understand the issues free market runs into (or conveniently ignored it using the "well in the long long long run" garbage). So please do us all a favor and step out into the real world because then you will realize how big the world actually is and how your ideals only capture one distorted side of it that isn't even close to reality. Or maybe you should read up a bit more on the subject and listen to someone outside of mises.org so you can have a picture closer to reality since there are plenty of healthy libertarians that aren't as zealous as you to some ideology you are ignorant on. Naughty naughty arent we? You should know of the refutation of the bulk of mainstream economics as a self respecting person . Look no further than "Human Action" and "Man Economy & State". Though ignoring it is convinient, one must say. Not unlike the reality of social comfort by the pseudointellectual class. On July 01 2011 19:22 jeeeeohn wrote: The video touches on this- the best working slave is he who thinks he is free. Thus the runaway success of tax revenue of modern states (55%+ of personal income) compared to serfdom and low efficiency ancient slavery. Think about it from the perspective of coercive revenue maximization. From that point of view, what the modern democratic states do is the most efficient form of slavery conceived by man.I'm not often spurred to argue with strangers on the internet, but this post is utter hand-wavery in the worst way (to borrow a Science Fiction expression). There is no slavery in a free-thinking democracy. I'm not bound by the state to do anything I don't want to do, besides follow their laws--laws that other free-thinking men created to preserve my rights. The most obvious comparison in the video is the caged pig to modern man: unlike the pig, I can do what I please, go where I want--oh yeah, and I'm sentient to the point of recognizing my own mortality (do you really think pigs would calmly get stuck in cages if they could conceptualize death?) I'm not sent into a field everyday to farm wheat. I'm not worked to the bone turning wheels in a mill to turn that wheat into flour. Long story short: I'm not forced by the state to do anything--unless I choose to work for the state. The metaphor is absurd and sensationalist. I'm free to create things and make a living without fear of persecution or imprisonment. That is not a "collective delusion." That is fact. Never before in the history of our world has society created parameters in which individuals can thrive as individuals. I don't have to follow tradition or worry about castes; don't have to please anyone but myself nor meet any standards but my own (which should be high). For the most part we are free of censorship. Now, if you want to get into whether the mass media is turning everyone into a flock of sheep, I'm down. But the video was nonsense. On July 01 2011 20:08 teekesselchen wrote: 1) Taxes are not arbitrary but made by your democratic (well, more or less... see bush vs kerry, wtf) government. They are dependend on income, so that people who earn less money have to pay less. You are getting a lot back from it: Infrastructure, security, education - all things that lack in Somalia. 2) Yeah people should really be allowed to drive 200 km/h in cities. That would free up a lot of jobs and really benefit the pension offices. I'm sure you get what I'm heading at here. 3) Taxes are also a mean of redistribution to avoid severe poverty, though U.S. citizens don't seem to like that. Haha I laughed :D Yes yes.. the distributionalist policies, and state payrolls, a key part in dividing the populus and abstracting the definitional nature of state action. The video touches on this. The Somalian struggle is an example of this. They know the state is their oppressor. So they struggle in their battles against it. The foreigners do not like it, not one bit, so they inject funds to the transitional government and ethiopian imperialists. But in the minds of Somali the dream cannot be extinguished. They have seen anarchy, touched it with their own hands. After the socialist tyranny ended, they had a blissful experience of self government, self responsibility. And now that it is being attempted to take away, they will not put up with it. What ever it takes - plundering the cargo ships of the oppressors, advancing tax-free gun trade marketing, distributing the imperialist food aid system(developed to delude people to support government) through anarcho-commerce. They wont give up. And know that while we in the west have been aching under our 55%+ slave payments, these men in Africa fight for their freedom, to mold their own destiny. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On July 01 2011 14:47 brain_ wrote: "Good society without government > good society with government [...] People need to be open-minded enough to realize that the things government "produces" - law, justice, etc - are products like anything else. And like any products, the free market is the most efficient and free way to handle them, and brings the lowest prices and highest quality to consumers. No. | ||
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Mumpel
Germany8 Posts
You might want to read through some of these reports from amnesty international Somalia: International military and policing assistance should be reviewed (AFR 52/001/2010) No end in sight: The ongoing suffering of Somalia's civilians (AFR 52//003/2010) Hard news: Journalists' lives in danger in Somalia (AFR 52//009/2010) Amnesty International's human rights concerns in southern and central Somalia (AFR 52//013/2010) From life without peace to peace without life: The treatment of Somali refugees and asylum-seekers in Kenya (AFR 32//015/2010) I´ve been 3 months in Ghana last year and they also have perfect cell phone network (got lost in the jungel for one day and even in between mountains and trees i could use my phone) in the whole country, i dont get why every single one of the people there needs a cell phone, though .... And yes, from i´ve learned most of the "democratic" countries in Africa are still in some form of slavery and supressed by the western countries. The EU finances the exports of it´s members countries to africa so those goods become cheaper than those produced in Ghana - for example: Clothes (saw a whole lot of old german t-shirts down there) Cars (also saw hundreds of cars with german company stickers on it) and more important food (espacially meat) I talked to alot of people down there and Ghana is heavily dependent on its resources for exports. Those are Gold, some other ores & diamonds, pineapple and cacao .... ALL of these sectors are beeing ruled by foreign companys that are corrupting the government to keep all the licenses and stuff. The people there need to and will start to stand up against there government sooner than later so the western countries NEED to rethink they´re politics towards african states so we dont get fucking 2nd Somalia ... or a 2nd Zimbabwe (dictator) and btw. china is buying or "renting" massive parts of Eastern African countries to produce agricultural products for China itsself, wtf,srsly! On July 01 2011 12:59 furymonkey wrote: If Anarchists thinks Somalia is their ideal state, maybe we could ship them off there?  Perfect!! | ||
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Sumsi
Germany593 Posts
On July 01 2011 23:01 Milkis wrote: I really don't know what world you are living in but here in germany the hippest ideology for younger people is socialism. That is the reason why a lot of them wear Che Guevara T-Shirts and stuff instead of, lets say, F.A.Hayek T-Shirts.Let's put it this way. Libertarianism is a nice trap for younger kids because it sounds so nice and "it makes sense" because it's based on basic economic principles. The issue with most people following this ideology is that they never get past the basic economic principles and they don't understand the issues free market runs into (or conveniently ignored it using the "well in the long long long run" garbage). Usually Libertarianism is something you come across when you escaped the public school system where you get "educated" all the time how evil capitalism is and you finally get in contact with "real world" and the market, so it was in my case. Your argument doesn't make any sense. | ||
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trancey_
Germany729 Posts
On July 02 2011 02:05 Sumsi wrote: I really don't know what world you are living in but here in germany the hippest ideology for younger people is socialism. That is the reason why a lot of them wear Che Guevara T-Shirts and stuff instead of, lets say, F.A.Hayek T-Shirts. Usually Libertarianism is something you come across when you escaped the public school system where you get "educated" all the time how evil capitalism is and you finally get in contact with "real world" and the market, so it was in my case. Your argument doesn't make any sense. at least for germany i can verify this. libertarianism is only represented by a few intellectuals here, the young population tends to be "green" or in favor of socialism, because it is on the first look more fair for everyone. If they read about the concept's - which few people do - they may change their minds. When i was younger and didn't care about politics particularly, i was one of the aforementioned youngsters. | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On July 02 2011 02:05 Sumsi wrote: I really don't know what world you are living in but here in germany the hippest ideology for younger people is socialism. That is the reason why a lot of them wear Che Guevara T-Shirts and stuff instead of, lets say, F.A.Hayek T-Shirts. Usually Libertarianism is something you come across when you escaped the public school system where you get "educated" all the time how evil capitalism is and you finally get in contact with "real world" and the market, so it was in my case. Your argument doesn't make any sense. Well I'm from America and I talk as someone living in the US :p Usually, a combination of Ayn Rand books and middle/upper middle class teenagers stuck in the suburban bubble causes this :p | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
Brain_ is choosing to ignore half of what history has clearly shown us. He sees what can go wrong when a government is too big or oversteps its boundaries, but he clearly chooses not to see all the problems caused when the government does not do enough for the sake of his own overly simplistic ideology. Look at what happened in history when a company was allowed to have a complete monopoly. As for law and justice and other things being products - Say, in a completely free market sans government, corporations formed huge conglomerates, where one conglomerate controlled the justice and law 'products' as well as many others. Do you really think a profit-seeking conglomerate like that is going to be fair against itself at the sake of its own profits? Of course to that you would say "well, then another company would create a better justice and law product that the people would like better." Alright, well the huge conglomerate probably already has huge power (both by influence and force of arms due to it's law product) and could literally just destroy the new company before it gets off the ground. The people would scream unfairness, but what power would they have at this point? This conglomerate could be a combination of corporations that has force of arms, produces, processes, and sells food, electricity, whatever it is that he people cannot really live without. You need a government in place to prevent things like this from happening. I believe in the power of free markets, but to say that complete free markets are optimal is horrendously oversimplifying the matter. I hope you can be open-minded enough to see that things may be more complicated to understand than what you yourself perceive. Any intelligent unbiased individual has probably realized that almost nothing in its extreme is ideal. It's almost always a combination of the two sides of a spectrum that works best. This is no exception. TLDR: Brain_'s idea's are no more valid than communism. Great on paper, not even close to realistically working in practice. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
But in the minds of Somali the dream cannot be extinguished. They have seen anarchy, touched it with their own hands. After the socialist tyranny ended, they had a blissful experience of self government, self responsibility. And now that it is being attempted to take away, they will not put up with it. What ever it takes - plundering the cargo ships of the oppressors, advancing tax-free gun trade marketing, distributing the imperialist food aid system(developed to delude people to support government) through anarcho-commerce. They wont give up. And know that while we in the west have been aching under our 55%+ slave payments, these men in Africa fight for their freedom, to mold their own destiny. That's what she said. I think they just fight to eat. | ||
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 02 2011 01:35 xarthaz wrote: death wish this shows exactly why i don't want this shit in "my anarchism". i didn't read everything, because after half of it, it was just too stupid for me. this makes me puke. you're no allies and you will never be looked at in such a way. and for your talk a few posts below, libertarians in the german speaking world are middle/ upper class kids, who think the government is sooo unfair and that everything they ever achieved is only their own achievment and no one else had anything to do with it. this gets coupled with a sense of intellectual superiority. I am extremly glad that no one here takes this shit serious, i hope this will go away soon. it's even worse than fascism, because it comes in the disguise of "freedom". ps: some spelling mistakes because this makes me angry. | ||
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 02 2011 02:15 Erasme wrote: That's what she said. I think they just fight to eat. I bet every somali would be happy if he could have a job where he earns enough and doesn't have to threaten people he has never seen before with deadly weapons. | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
But in the minds of Somali the dream cannot be extinguished. They have seen anarchy, touched it with their own hands. After the socialist tyranny ended, they had a blissful experience of self government, self responsibility. And now that it is being attempted to take away, they will not put up with it. What ever it takes - plundering the cargo ships of the oppressors, advancing tax-free gun trade marketing, distributing the imperialist food aid system(developed to delude people to support government) through anarcho-commerce. They wont give up. And know that while we in the west have been aching under our 55%+ slave payments, these men in Africa fight for their freedom, to mold their own destiny. hahaha Well, I for one am glad that the Somali people, blessed with their experiment into anarchism and chaos, are some of the few people in the world attempting to fight against the evils of government. However, as usual, xarthaz wouldn't dare to live in that "country", even though it has had a "blissful experience of self government". Why not, buddy? It's just a plane ticket away! Taxes, wage slavery, all that would go away so you can live your life in the bliss and freedom of Somalia! | ||
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