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On June 30 2011 18:26 tpyo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 17:52 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 17:48 Bleak wrote:
I think if someone breaks into your home at night and if you have a gun, you should first warn him to leave your house and force him to give your belongings back. If he does not comply, if he attacks you, and if he is unarmed/carries a melee weapon, you may shot him in the leg or so to immobilise him. Then, call the police.
However, if the guy is armed with a firearm, I believe you should shoot him. Doing otherwise would be taking a big risk.
In any case, if you are in panic, can't think straight due to fear/adrenalin, and if you shoot burglar, that is still lawful.
Sad to see the Americans caring more about their plasmas than the life of an individual. I have heard that in some places asking people directions in U.S is dangerous as people think you are a trespasser or sth. Americans only care for money and property. Never happening. Firing a handgun is difficult enough when you are perfectly calm, aiming for center mass, and have time to put your sights on the target. When your adrenaline is spiking because someone just broke into your house who may or may not be carrying a weapon? Good luck, it's not going to happen. Do not underestimate what stress does to your body. Trained people have a hard enough time aiming at a LARGE target under stress and most people simply aren't trained in stress inoculation. Keep in mind that I completely agree that you should announce yourself and tell the burglar to get the hell out of the house. For me though? He gets one chance. If he doesn't start leaving I am shooting. Reaction gets beating by pro action every single time so if he's hiding some weapon in his waist band then I better act first. Agreed 100%, it would be unrealistic to think you could target a limb under the effects of stress and adrenaline, especially with low light visibility. It may not even work to immobilize him. Look at what it took to trained police to stop this guy http://concealedcarryholsters.org/fbi-analysis-on-pa-police-shootout/Warning: The the pics in the PDF are definitely NSFW Thanks for the warning, it's pretty fucking sick but I'm always curious. 
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On June 30 2011 18:29 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:22 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:58 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 17:54 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:37 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 15:47 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:41 OsoVega wrote:On June 30 2011 15:32 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:23 Gheed wrote:On June 30 2011 15:20 Morfildur wrote:
[quote]
Yes, but that potential thread has a high chance of being dead after that. Well, maybe it's really the country as the poster before you suggests, but i would never, ever use force that has the potential of being deadly. When in doubt, i'd rather die and let the murderer rot in prison later than risk killing someone who never was a threat in the first place.
You'd rather die then kill someone that was trying to kill you? That's some pretty hardcore turning of the other cheek. Do you have kids? Family? People who like you? I'm pretty sure they'd value your life more than that of some asshole burglar. If i'd kill someone only to later find out that he never was a threat (i.e. was unarmed), i couldn't live with it anyways and probably end up killing myself because of that. Unless the person is actively shooting at me or trying to stab me (in which case i'd probably already be dead), deadly force is not an option for me, no matter who the other person is. Criminals don't just become criminals because they are born evil, they have a life too. Some of them even have a wife and children. Their life is in no way worth less than mine just because they got on the wrong path somewhere. There are lots of options to scare intruders away or incapacitate them. What if someone was holding a fake gun to your family. Would you feel bad over killing them? That is no different than someone who breaks into your house. They are putting themselves into a threatening position in which they have the potential to kill and it is not up to you to take the risk of assuming that they don't. The typical strawman argument... No, i still wouldn't use deadly force. Anyways, that situation is totally unrelated to this thread as a burglary usually doesn't turn into an hostage situation. If it does, give him what he wants and later call the police and get your stuff back and that guy into prison. If your property is worth more than a human life, your priorities are really messed up.
Yes my property is worth more than the asshole that broke into my house and is jacking my shit. There, I said it. I also completely believe it. That's not the real issue though. The real issue though is that some guy that just committed a felony is inside my house at night uninvited. I have no clue what the guy breaking into my house intends to do and I refuse to risk my family on a maybe. If the guy is in my house at night, and he shouldn't be, I honestly have no qualms with killing him. People who break into houses are not good people. Trust me. As a Police officer I really admire your confidence in the police but the real fact of the matter is that house burglary victims rarely get their stuff back. Most of the time they depend on insurance to take care of it. That aside I am far more worried about my family than my stuff and I will use lethal force to protect them without a second thought. They are too important to risk otherwise. What if you go searching for the burglar your gun up, then the burglar you did not see, or even a secong burglar you did not know were there kills you because they were afraid? Who then is left to defend your family? Just because you felt your property is worth more than life of a criminal. Uh what kind of hypothetical nonsense is this? What if a comet hits my house and kills everyone inside? Problem is solved that way too. What if that second burglar is going to shoot or stab REGARDLESS of what I do? Sorry this argument doesn't really work well at all. Again it's not even the property. I can replace that. I just stated that it is worth more than the guy breaking into my house...frankly. Conversely said burglar could completely avoid getting shot by not BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE. I alredy anwsered the if parts to other guy read that. But i will tell you why your last sentace is stupid. Well its because you could use the same argument in every situation. Example would you be ok of law that allows you to shoot anyone who insaults you bevause they could avoid being shot by not insaulting you. No you can't. Want to know why? By using common sense. That aside there is no law that states I can shoot someone for insulting me so your argument just went out the window on that basis alone. Really do you actually think what you typed somehow brings about a logical conclusion or even makes sense? Insulting me does not actually threaten my well being. Breaking into my house, especially at night, potentially does. Ergo my reaction to someone breaking into my house is going to be a lot more forceful than someone who insults me... This isn't a slippery slope here guy.
Well the common sence argument is also invalid because acording to my common sence a person that is taking my property or anyone elses property does not deserve death or possibly leathal injuries. So yeah its not universal common sence to do what you want either, elsewise harming burglars in fiinland would be legal. To further repeat what i said in this post saying crinals could avoid punishment X by not being criminals is imho stupid argument.
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Haha this is most certainly a great move, I'd def attack the dude trying to mug my place =/.
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On June 30 2011 18:41 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:29 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 18:22 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:58 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 17:54 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:37 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 15:47 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:41 OsoVega wrote:On June 30 2011 15:32 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:23 Gheed wrote:
[quote]
You'd rather die then kill someone that was trying to kill you? That's some pretty hardcore turning of the other cheek. Do you have kids? Family? People who like you? I'm pretty sure they'd value your life more than that of some asshole burglar.
If i'd kill someone only to later find out that he never was a threat (i.e. was unarmed), i couldn't live with it anyways and probably end up killing myself because of that. Unless the person is actively shooting at me or trying to stab me (in which case i'd probably already be dead), deadly force is not an option for me, no matter who the other person is. Criminals don't just become criminals because they are born evil, they have a life too. Some of them even have a wife and children. Their life is in no way worth less than mine just because they got on the wrong path somewhere. There are lots of options to scare intruders away or incapacitate them. What if someone was holding a fake gun to your family. Would you feel bad over killing them? That is no different than someone who breaks into your house. They are putting themselves into a threatening position in which they have the potential to kill and it is not up to you to take the risk of assuming that they don't. The typical strawman argument... No, i still wouldn't use deadly force. Anyways, that situation is totally unrelated to this thread as a burglary usually doesn't turn into an hostage situation. If it does, give him what he wants and later call the police and get your stuff back and that guy into prison. If your property is worth more than a human life, your priorities are really messed up.
Yes my property is worth more than the asshole that broke into my house and is jacking my shit. There, I said it. I also completely believe it. That's not the real issue though. The real issue though is that some guy that just committed a felony is inside my house at night uninvited. I have no clue what the guy breaking into my house intends to do and I refuse to risk my family on a maybe. If the guy is in my house at night, and he shouldn't be, I honestly have no qualms with killing him. People who break into houses are not good people. Trust me. As a Police officer I really admire your confidence in the police but the real fact of the matter is that house burglary victims rarely get their stuff back. Most of the time they depend on insurance to take care of it. That aside I am far more worried about my family than my stuff and I will use lethal force to protect them without a second thought. They are too important to risk otherwise. What if you go searching for the burglar your gun up, then the burglar you did not see, or even a secong burglar you did not know were there kills you because they were afraid? Who then is left to defend your family? Just because you felt your property is worth more than life of a criminal. Uh what kind of hypothetical nonsense is this? What if a comet hits my house and kills everyone inside? Problem is solved that way too. What if that second burglar is going to shoot or stab REGARDLESS of what I do? Sorry this argument doesn't really work well at all. Again it's not even the property. I can replace that. I just stated that it is worth more than the guy breaking into my house...frankly. Conversely said burglar could completely avoid getting shot by not BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE. I alredy anwsered the if parts to other guy read that. But i will tell you why your last sentace is stupid. Well its because you could use the same argument in every situation. Example would you be ok of law that allows you to shoot anyone who insaults you bevause they could avoid being shot by not insaulting you. No you can't. Want to know why? By using common sense. That aside there is no law that states I can shoot someone for insulting me so your argument just went out the window on that basis alone. Really do you actually think what you typed somehow brings about a logical conclusion or even makes sense? Insulting me does not actually threaten my well being. Breaking into my house, especially at night, potentially does. Ergo my reaction to someone breaking into my house is going to be a lot more forceful than someone who insults me... This isn't a slippery slope here guy. Well the common sence argument is also invalid because acording to my common sence a person that is taking my property or anyone elses property does not deserve death or possibly leathal injuries. So yeah its not universal common sence to do what you want either, elsewise harming burglars in fiinland would be legal. To further repeat what i said in this post saying crinals could avoid punishment X by not being criminals is imho stupid argument.
Your comparison was completely invalid and is still invalid. However, you can believe that someone doesn't deserve to die for theft.
I agree with you.
Burglary is not theft. I do not equate them at all as they are not the same thing. I do not feel like risking my family on the hope that the guy that broke into my house doesn't plan on harming me or anyone else in the house. You may find that risk acceptable. I do not.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people not to break into my house. If it requires the risk of being shot for them to stop breaking into my house then so be it. I really fail to see the fallacy in that argument.
It's nice to know though that if someone breaks into your house in Finland you basically have to stand there and wait for them to take your shit. It's like you think the guy that broke into your house is somehow the victim if he gets hurt.
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On June 30 2011 18:35 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:09 dapanman wrote:On June 30 2011 17:14 partisan wrote:On June 30 2011 17:08 KryptoStorm wrote:
Looks like every american TeamLiquidan owns a gun! Have you ever been to the states? There's a reason why we have the highest murder rate in the world. Not even close. Ok, 2nd highest of first world countries 
If you put it into relative numbers it sounds even worse:
(Mostly random selection of countries)
More than twice as many as South Korea
Almost three times as many as Canada
Almost four times as many as France and the UK
More than four times as many as China, Greece and Italy
About Five times as many as Denmark
Almost six times as many as Spain, Sweden, Germany and Japan
(All numbers per capita, not total)
Anyways, let's not derail this further.
Summary for this Thread:
Shooting Burglars is bad. Stabbing them is bad, too. It's legal in the US and UK, but you still shouldn't do it. If you live in the US you'd probably do it anyways.
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On June 30 2011 18:27 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:21 zdra wrote:
How did this thread end up about America?.. The law is being past in the UK, Hardly anyone in the UK has a gun in there own home, and most burglar will also not have a gun in most cases they will run once they see you or an alarm goes off. This law just means that in the case they do no run you can defend yourself without going to prison. Also is if they intended to kill your possessions when they know you are in the house Because the legal system in america is much more interesting topic than a law that allows you to do the stupidest thing ever which is getting in melee range of a burglar.
Once again, severe bias and misunderstanding of this law. What if THEY GET IN MELEE RANGE OF YOU?
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On June 30 2011 18:41 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:29 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 18:22 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:58 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 17:54 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:37 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 15:47 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:41 OsoVega wrote:On June 30 2011 15:32 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:23 Gheed wrote:
[quote]
You'd rather die then kill someone that was trying to kill you? That's some pretty hardcore turning of the other cheek. Do you have kids? Family? People who like you? I'm pretty sure they'd value your life more than that of some asshole burglar.
If i'd kill someone only to later find out that he never was a threat (i.e. was unarmed), i couldn't live with it anyways and probably end up killing myself because of that. Unless the person is actively shooting at me or trying to stab me (in which case i'd probably already be dead), deadly force is not an option for me, no matter who the other person is. Criminals don't just become criminals because they are born evil, they have a life too. Some of them even have a wife and children. Their life is in no way worth less than mine just because they got on the wrong path somewhere. There are lots of options to scare intruders away or incapacitate them. What if someone was holding a fake gun to your family. Would you feel bad over killing them? That is no different than someone who breaks into your house. They are putting themselves into a threatening position in which they have the potential to kill and it is not up to you to take the risk of assuming that they don't. The typical strawman argument... No, i still wouldn't use deadly force. Anyways, that situation is totally unrelated to this thread as a burglary usually doesn't turn into an hostage situation. If it does, give him what he wants and later call the police and get your stuff back and that guy into prison. If your property is worth more than a human life, your priorities are really messed up.
Yes my property is worth more than the asshole that broke into my house and is jacking my shit. There, I said it. I also completely believe it. That's not the real issue though. The real issue though is that some guy that just committed a felony is inside my house at night uninvited. I have no clue what the guy breaking into my house intends to do and I refuse to risk my family on a maybe. If the guy is in my house at night, and he shouldn't be, I honestly have no qualms with killing him. People who break into houses are not good people. Trust me. As a Police officer I really admire your confidence in the police but the real fact of the matter is that house burglary victims rarely get their stuff back. Most of the time they depend on insurance to take care of it. That aside I am far more worried about my family than my stuff and I will use lethal force to protect them without a second thought. They are too important to risk otherwise. What if you go searching for the burglar your gun up, then the burglar you did not see, or even a secong burglar you did not know were there kills you because they were afraid? Who then is left to defend your family? Just because you felt your property is worth more than life of a criminal. Uh what kind of hypothetical nonsense is this? What if a comet hits my house and kills everyone inside? Problem is solved that way too. What if that second burglar is going to shoot or stab REGARDLESS of what I do? Sorry this argument doesn't really work well at all. Again it's not even the property. I can replace that. I just stated that it is worth more than the guy breaking into my house...frankly. Conversely said burglar could completely avoid getting shot by not BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE. I alredy anwsered the if parts to other guy read that. But i will tell you why your last sentace is stupid. Well its because you could use the same argument in every situation. Example would you be ok of law that allows you to shoot anyone who insaults you bevause they could avoid being shot by not insaulting you. No you can't. Want to know why? By using common sense. That aside there is no law that states I can shoot someone for insulting me so your argument just went out the window on that basis alone. Really do you actually think what you typed somehow brings about a logical conclusion or even makes sense? Insulting me does not actually threaten my well being. Breaking into my house, especially at night, potentially does. Ergo my reaction to someone breaking into my house is going to be a lot more forceful than someone who insults me... This isn't a slippery slope here guy. Well the common sence argument is also invalid because acording to my common sence a person that is taking my property or anyone elses property does not deserve death or possibly leathal injuries. So yeah its not universal common sence to do what you want either, elsewise harming burglars in fiinland would be legal. To further repeat what i said in this post saying crinals could avoid punishment X by not being criminals is imho stupid argument.
Is it illegal to confront someone who is burglarizing your home in Finland? Maybe your gun control laws are a lot stricter than ours, but over here the guy in your sitting room could have a gun, which he could pull on you when you confront him; you have no way of knowing whether he's armed or not until the weapon is being used against you, so it is legal to shoot someone in your home in defense of your property (in some states, my state being one of them). And them being there only for your stuff and having no intentions of hurting anyone at all is the best-case scenario. Not everyone is a trained cop like Jayme, most people are just scared and irrational.
Using your thought process it would be better to simply not confront them and let them have your stuff; maybe that's what you would really do (I do hope you're well insured, though). All I do know is that I don't want someone to be able to sneak into my house, steal my stuff and get away with it; I want the legally-guaranteed ability to do something about it while making sure I and my family stay safe.
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On June 30 2011 18:48 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:41 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 18:29 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 18:22 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:58 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 17:54 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:37 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 15:47 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:41 OsoVega wrote:On June 30 2011 15:32 Morfildur wrote:
[quote]
If i'd kill someone only to later find out that he never was a threat (i.e. was unarmed), i couldn't live with it anyways and probably end up killing myself because of that.
Unless the person is actively shooting at me or trying to stab me (in which case i'd probably already be dead), deadly force is not an option for me, no matter who the other person is. Criminals don't just become criminals because they are born evil, they have a life too. Some of them even have a wife and children. Their life is in no way worth less than mine just because they got on the wrong path somewhere.
There are lots of options to scare intruders away or incapacitate them.
What if someone was holding a fake gun to your family. Would you feel bad over killing them? That is no different than someone who breaks into your house. They are putting themselves into a threatening position in which they have the potential to kill and it is not up to you to take the risk of assuming that they don't. The typical strawman argument... No, i still wouldn't use deadly force. Anyways, that situation is totally unrelated to this thread as a burglary usually doesn't turn into an hostage situation. If it does, give him what he wants and later call the police and get your stuff back and that guy into prison. If your property is worth more than a human life, your priorities are really messed up.
Yes my property is worth more than the asshole that broke into my house and is jacking my shit. There, I said it. I also completely believe it. That's not the real issue though. The real issue though is that some guy that just committed a felony is inside my house at night uninvited. I have no clue what the guy breaking into my house intends to do and I refuse to risk my family on a maybe. If the guy is in my house at night, and he shouldn't be, I honestly have no qualms with killing him. People who break into houses are not good people. Trust me. As a Police officer I really admire your confidence in the police but the real fact of the matter is that house burglary victims rarely get their stuff back. Most of the time they depend on insurance to take care of it. That aside I am far more worried about my family than my stuff and I will use lethal force to protect them without a second thought. They are too important to risk otherwise. What if you go searching for the burglar your gun up, then the burglar you did not see, or even a secong burglar you did not know were there kills you because they were afraid? Who then is left to defend your family? Just because you felt your property is worth more than life of a criminal. Uh what kind of hypothetical nonsense is this? What if a comet hits my house and kills everyone inside? Problem is solved that way too. What if that second burglar is going to shoot or stab REGARDLESS of what I do? Sorry this argument doesn't really work well at all. Again it's not even the property. I can replace that. I just stated that it is worth more than the guy breaking into my house...frankly. Conversely said burglar could completely avoid getting shot by not BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE. I alredy anwsered the if parts to other guy read that. But i will tell you why your last sentace is stupid. Well its because you could use the same argument in every situation. Example would you be ok of law that allows you to shoot anyone who insaults you bevause they could avoid being shot by not insaulting you. No you can't. Want to know why? By using common sense. That aside there is no law that states I can shoot someone for insulting me so your argument just went out the window on that basis alone. Really do you actually think what you typed somehow brings about a logical conclusion or even makes sense? Insulting me does not actually threaten my well being. Breaking into my house, especially at night, potentially does. Ergo my reaction to someone breaking into my house is going to be a lot more forceful than someone who insults me... This isn't a slippery slope here guy. Well the common sence argument is also invalid because acording to my common sence a person that is taking my property or anyone elses property does not deserve death or possibly leathal injuries. So yeah its not universal common sence to do what you want either, elsewise harming burglars in fiinland would be legal. To further repeat what i said in this post saying crinals could avoid punishment X by not being criminals is imho stupid argument. Your comparison was completely invalid and is still invalid. However, you can believe that someone doesn't deserve to die for theft. I agree with you. Burglary is not theft. I do not equate them at all as they are not the same thing. I do not feel like risking my family on the hope that the guy that broke into my house doesn't plan on harming me or anyone else in the house. You may find that risk acceptable. I do not. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people not to break into my house. If it requires the risk of being shot for them to stop breaking into my house then so be it. I really fail to see the fallacy in that argument. It's nice to know though that if someone breaks into your house in Finland you basically have to stand there and wait for them to take your shit. It's like you think the guy that broke into your house is somehow the victim if he gets hurt.
I dont need to stand there I can do anything that does not imjure him like take my stuff back or grable him untill the police arrives, if he wants to figth before giving my stuff back i can figth back in self defense. If i think the burlar iis too strong for me or If the burglar attempts to run away with my stuff i would follow him and give directions to cops as they make a surround. And here the possibilities of the burlar having a gun is bacicly zero so here we dont have towrry about that. Its not a perfect system but then again there are not alot of burlars here.
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I wouldn't stab a burglar. I could kill him.
Just a few punches will soften him up a bit.
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On June 30 2011 19:01 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:48 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 18:41 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 18:29 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 18:22 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:58 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 17:54 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:37 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 15:47 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:41 OsoVega wrote:
[quote]
What if someone was holding a fake gun to your family. Would you feel bad over killing them? That is no different than someone who breaks into your house. They are putting themselves into a threatening position in which they have the potential to kill and it is not up to you to take the risk of assuming that they don't. The typical strawman argument... No, i still wouldn't use deadly force. Anyways, that situation is totally unrelated to this thread as a burglary usually doesn't turn into an hostage situation. If it does, give him what he wants and later call the police and get your stuff back and that guy into prison. If your property is worth more than a human life, your priorities are really messed up.
Yes my property is worth more than the asshole that broke into my house and is jacking my shit. There, I said it. I also completely believe it. That's not the real issue though. The real issue though is that some guy that just committed a felony is inside my house at night uninvited. I have no clue what the guy breaking into my house intends to do and I refuse to risk my family on a maybe. If the guy is in my house at night, and he shouldn't be, I honestly have no qualms with killing him. People who break into houses are not good people. Trust me. As a Police officer I really admire your confidence in the police but the real fact of the matter is that house burglary victims rarely get their stuff back. Most of the time they depend on insurance to take care of it. That aside I am far more worried about my family than my stuff and I will use lethal force to protect them without a second thought. They are too important to risk otherwise. What if you go searching for the burglar your gun up, then the burglar you did not see, or even a secong burglar you did not know were there kills you because they were afraid? Who then is left to defend your family? Just because you felt your property is worth more than life of a criminal. Uh what kind of hypothetical nonsense is this? What if a comet hits my house and kills everyone inside? Problem is solved that way too. What if that second burglar is going to shoot or stab REGARDLESS of what I do? Sorry this argument doesn't really work well at all. Again it's not even the property. I can replace that. I just stated that it is worth more than the guy breaking into my house...frankly. Conversely said burglar could completely avoid getting shot by not BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE. I alredy anwsered the if parts to other guy read that. But i will tell you why your last sentace is stupid. Well its because you could use the same argument in every situation. Example would you be ok of law that allows you to shoot anyone who insaults you bevause they could avoid being shot by not insaulting you. No you can't. Want to know why? By using common sense. That aside there is no law that states I can shoot someone for insulting me so your argument just went out the window on that basis alone. Really do you actually think what you typed somehow brings about a logical conclusion or even makes sense? Insulting me does not actually threaten my well being. Breaking into my house, especially at night, potentially does. Ergo my reaction to someone breaking into my house is going to be a lot more forceful than someone who insults me... This isn't a slippery slope here guy. Well the common sence argument is also invalid because acording to my common sence a person that is taking my property or anyone elses property does not deserve death or possibly leathal injuries. So yeah its not universal common sence to do what you want either, elsewise harming burglars in fiinland would be legal. To further repeat what i said in this post saying crinals could avoid punishment X by not being criminals is imho stupid argument. Your comparison was completely invalid and is still invalid. However, you can believe that someone doesn't deserve to die for theft. I agree with you. Burglary is not theft. I do not equate them at all as they are not the same thing. I do not feel like risking my family on the hope that the guy that broke into my house doesn't plan on harming me or anyone else in the house. You may find that risk acceptable. I do not. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people not to break into my house. If it requires the risk of being shot for them to stop breaking into my house then so be it. I really fail to see the fallacy in that argument. It's nice to know though that if someone breaks into your house in Finland you basically have to stand there and wait for them to take your shit. It's like you think the guy that broke into your house is somehow the victim if he gets hurt. I dont need to stand there I can do anything that does not imjure him like take my stuff back or grable him untill the police arrives, if he wants to figth before giving my stuff back i can figth back in self defense. If i think the burlar iis too strong for me or If the burglar attempts to run away with my stuff i would follow him and give directions to cops as they make a surround. And here the possibilities of the burlar having a gun is bacicly zero so here we dont have towrry about that. Its not a perfect system but then again there are not alot of burlars here.
At this point I'm kind of curious, what's the average response time for Finnish police?
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On June 30 2011 12:05 coZen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 12:01 Arishok wrote:
In the US it is legal to shoot intruders un-invited on our property if they are deemed a threat, AFAIK
Personally if someone broke into my house I wouldn't get close enough to them to use a knife, regardless of what was legal or not. no it is not. you are only allowed to use equal force that they are using upon you. If they pull out a gun, then you are allowed to open fire. I wouldnt want to be on your property on accident!
Even if that would be true, you gotta remember that America is America. -.-
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I agree with this so much, step in the right direction 
I probably wouldn't stab a burglar, but attempt to beat him up with a cricket bat or something
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On June 30 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:10 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 30 2011 17:48 Bleak wrote:
I think if someone breaks into your home at night and if you have a gun, you should first warn him to leave your house and force him to give your belongings back. If he does not comply, if he attacks you, and if he is unarmed/carries a melee weapon, you may shot him in the leg or so to immobilise him. Then, call the police.
However, if the guy is armed with a firearm, I believe you should shoot him. Doing otherwise would be taking a big risk.
In any case, if you are in panic, can't think straight due to fear/adrenalin, and if you shoot burglar, that is still lawful.
Sad to see the Americans caring more about their plasmas than the life of an individual. I have heard that in some places asking people directions in U.S is dangerous as people think you are a trespasser or sth. Americans only care for money and property. Don't be a tool, you just expressed the opinion of most Americans. "In any case, if you are in panic, can't think straight due to fear/adrenalin, and if you shoot burglar, that is still lawful." Yep, that's what its all about. Benefit of the doubt should go to the homeowner because no one else was in the situation they were in. Asking directions in the U.S. is fine. Please come here before you spout any more shit about us. Don't get offended, i am aware there are idiots and geniuses in every society, it's just something I've heard that seemed funny to me. What I am trying to say is that (and I have heard it from Americans who live in Turkey) is that they are much more closed in terms of their personal space. My college teacher has talked about this before but it is really off topic. So you wake up, realise that there is a burglar at your home, you grab your gun and move as silently as possible,. You find burglar the sitting room, checking the stuff around. He is not aware of you, his back is turned to you, you don't care he is armed or not and shoot the guy in torso with 4 bullets. Poor bastard dies right there. Do you think this would constitute a proportional and necessary self defence case?
I wouldn't do that personally for my own reasons but yes, that should hold up as self defense. It seems the person in that situation cared a great deal about whether or not that person was armed, hence explaining their action. Lets say your mother was in her home alone, and in her frightened state, she did EXACTLY what you described above. Would she deserve to go to prison? Or lets say she pointed the gun at him and yelled a warning, he jumps out of the way, draws his gun and kills her. Would you find solace knowing she did the "morally right" thing? Proportionality has no place in this argument. When someone initiates hostilities against you, you have the right to do whatever is necessary to feel safe.
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On June 30 2011 18:52 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:35 mcc wrote:On June 30 2011 18:09 dapanman wrote:On June 30 2011 17:14 partisan wrote:On June 30 2011 17:08 KryptoStorm wrote:
Looks like every american TeamLiquidan owns a gun! Have you ever been to the states? There's a reason why we have the highest murder rate in the world. Not even close. Ok, 2nd highest of first world countries If you put it into relative numbers it sounds even worse: (Mostly random selection of countries) More than twice as many as South Korea Almost three times as many as Canada Almost four times as many as France and the UK More than four times as many as China, Greece and Italy About Five times as many as Denmark Almost six times as many as Spain, Sweden, Germany and Japan (All numbers per capita, not total) Anyways, let's not derail this further. Summary for this Thread: Shooting Burglars is bad. Stabbing them is bad, too. It's legal in the US and UK, but you still shouldn't do it. If you live in the US you'd probably do it anyways.
I'm honestly not entirely sure that the murder rate has much to do with gun control laws in the United States.
Before I go on I just want to say this is my opinion and I don't proclaim to be an expert on this or anything but what I've noticed in the US is that the sheer meshing and diversity of culture around here leaves more room for tension and so violent crime is simply more common. Our population is also plain larger and while I understand those numbers you gave are Per Capita, the sheer amount of population actually does mean something and make a difference.
I think that and a combination of the drug trafficking that goes on in this country account for a large portion of the homicide rates we see. I am also not saying that other countries don't have the same problem, I just believe it's nowhere on the same scale.
The murders I go to are very very rarely between "upstanding" citizens. Usually it's because some guy trolled another selling drugs on the wrong turf and it got taken personally. Criminals are really stupid people and still say things like "mad doggin me" at the age of 30.
Then again it could be the guns lol.
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On June 30 2011 18:52 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:35 mcc wrote:On June 30 2011 18:09 dapanman wrote:On June 30 2011 17:14 partisan wrote:On June 30 2011 17:08 KryptoStorm wrote:
Looks like every american TeamLiquidan owns a gun! Have you ever been to the states? There's a reason why we have the highest murder rate in the world. Not even close. Ok, 2nd highest of first world countries If you put it into relative numbers it sounds even worse: (Mostly random selection of countries) More than twice as many as South Korea Almost three times as many as Canada Almost four times as many as France and the UK More than four times as many as China, Greece and Italy About Five times as many as Denmark Almost six times as many as Spain, Sweden, Germany and Japan (All numbers per capita, not total) Anyways, let's not derail this further. Summary for this Thread: Shooting Burglars is bad. Stabbing them is bad, too. It's legal in the US and UK, but you still shouldn't do it. If you live in the US you'd probably do it anyways. Okay, now prove causation. Look at the homicide rate in Mexico. Look at the homicide rate in Switzerland. Yeah, it's off topic, but what you posted is meaningless.
That's not a summary of this thread, it's a summary of your feelings. My feelings would be that you should be able to shoot burglars, you should be able to stab burglars.
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On June 30 2011 18:59 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:41 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 18:29 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 18:22 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:58 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 17:54 Sea_Food wrote:On June 30 2011 17:37 Jayme wrote:On June 30 2011 15:47 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 15:41 OsoVega wrote:On June 30 2011 15:32 Morfildur wrote:
[quote]
If i'd kill someone only to later find out that he never was a threat (i.e. was unarmed), i couldn't live with it anyways and probably end up killing myself because of that.
Unless the person is actively shooting at me or trying to stab me (in which case i'd probably already be dead), deadly force is not an option for me, no matter who the other person is. Criminals don't just become criminals because they are born evil, they have a life too. Some of them even have a wife and children. Their life is in no way worth less than mine just because they got on the wrong path somewhere.
There are lots of options to scare intruders away or incapacitate them.
What if someone was holding a fake gun to your family. Would you feel bad over killing them? That is no different than someone who breaks into your house. They are putting themselves into a threatening position in which they have the potential to kill and it is not up to you to take the risk of assuming that they don't. The typical strawman argument... No, i still wouldn't use deadly force. Anyways, that situation is totally unrelated to this thread as a burglary usually doesn't turn into an hostage situation. If it does, give him what he wants and later call the police and get your stuff back and that guy into prison. If your property is worth more than a human life, your priorities are really messed up.
Yes my property is worth more than the asshole that broke into my house and is jacking my shit. There, I said it. I also completely believe it. That's not the real issue though. The real issue though is that some guy that just committed a felony is inside my house at night uninvited. I have no clue what the guy breaking into my house intends to do and I refuse to risk my family on a maybe. If the guy is in my house at night, and he shouldn't be, I honestly have no qualms with killing him. People who break into houses are not good people. Trust me. As a Police officer I really admire your confidence in the police but the real fact of the matter is that house burglary victims rarely get their stuff back. Most of the time they depend on insurance to take care of it. That aside I am far more worried about my family than my stuff and I will use lethal force to protect them without a second thought. They are too important to risk otherwise. What if you go searching for the burglar your gun up, then the burglar you did not see, or even a secong burglar you did not know were there kills you because they were afraid? Who then is left to defend your family? Just because you felt your property is worth more than life of a criminal. Uh what kind of hypothetical nonsense is this? What if a comet hits my house and kills everyone inside? Problem is solved that way too. What if that second burglar is going to shoot or stab REGARDLESS of what I do? Sorry this argument doesn't really work well at all. Again it's not even the property. I can replace that. I just stated that it is worth more than the guy breaking into my house...frankly. Conversely said burglar could completely avoid getting shot by not BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE. I alredy anwsered the if parts to other guy read that. But i will tell you why your last sentace is stupid. Well its because you could use the same argument in every situation. Example would you be ok of law that allows you to shoot anyone who insaults you bevause they could avoid being shot by not insaulting you. No you can't. Want to know why? By using common sense. That aside there is no law that states I can shoot someone for insulting me so your argument just went out the window on that basis alone. Really do you actually think what you typed somehow brings about a logical conclusion or even makes sense? Insulting me does not actually threaten my well being. Breaking into my house, especially at night, potentially does. Ergo my reaction to someone breaking into my house is going to be a lot more forceful than someone who insults me... This isn't a slippery slope here guy. Well the common sence argument is also invalid because acording to my common sence a person that is taking my property or anyone elses property does not deserve death or possibly leathal injuries. So yeah its not universal common sence to do what you want either, elsewise harming burglars in fiinland would be legal. To further repeat what i said in this post saying crinals could avoid punishment X by not being criminals is imho stupid argument. Is it illegal to confront someone who is burglarizing your home in Finland? Maybe your gun control laws are a lot stricter than ours, but over here the guy in your sitting room could have a gun, which he could pull on you when you confront him; you have no way of knowing whether he's armed or not until the weapon is being used against you, so it is legal to shoot someone in your home in defense of your property (in some states, my state being one of them). And them being there only for your stuff and having no intentions of hurting anyone at all is the best-case scenario. Not everyone is a trained cop like Jayme, most people are just scared and irrational. Using your thought process it would be better to simply not confront them and let them have your stuff; maybe that's what you would really do (I do hope you're well insured, though). All I do know is that I don't want someone to be able to sneak into my house, steal my stuff and get away with it; I want the legally-guaranteed ability to do something about it while making sure I and my family stay safe.
In most countries you can point a gun at him and confront him, but you are not allowed to harm him if he does not present a threat to you or someone else. The chance that a burglar will have a gun is very very small. Basically the only criminals having guns are drug-mafias and other criminal organizations. And they do not do burglaries or want to kill people other than members of rival organizations as that would make police concentrate on them.
A lot (not all) of that comes back to the number of guns in the society and the culture of gun usage. If you would magically strip all people in US of guns and made ban on owning guns privately, it would be pretty good as criminals would not have guns either (and no they won't get them easily, most of their guns are acquired from general population). But any gradual change in US gun laws will probably make things worse in short to medium term as you deprive citizens of means of self-defense while criminals still have enough guns to last for a time. It is kind of unescapable circle. And not everything is in guns, US seems to have much more violent culture at least in some places.
So in places where guns are scarce and violence also not high, the laws can be as in most of Europe as the chance of the criminal having a gun is really low. And that situation is in general better. However if guns are prevalent the laws have to account for that, and sadly I do not see an easy non-totalitarian way to transition into less armed society.
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On June 30 2011 19:10 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:On June 30 2011 18:10 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 30 2011 17:48 Bleak wrote:
I think if someone breaks into your home at night and if you have a gun, you should first warn him to leave your house and force him to give your belongings back. If he does not comply, if he attacks you, and if he is unarmed/carries a melee weapon, you may shot him in the leg or so to immobilise him. Then, call the police.
However, if the guy is armed with a firearm, I believe you should shoot him. Doing otherwise would be taking a big risk.
In any case, if you are in panic, can't think straight due to fear/adrenalin, and if you shoot burglar, that is still lawful.
Sad to see the Americans caring more about their plasmas than the life of an individual. I have heard that in some places asking people directions in U.S is dangerous as people think you are a trespasser or sth. Americans only care for money and property. Don't be a tool, you just expressed the opinion of most Americans. "In any case, if you are in panic, can't think straight due to fear/adrenalin, and if you shoot burglar, that is still lawful." Yep, that's what its all about. Benefit of the doubt should go to the homeowner because no one else was in the situation they were in. Asking directions in the U.S. is fine. Please come here before you spout any more shit about us. Don't get offended, i am aware there are idiots and geniuses in every society, it's just something I've heard that seemed funny to me. What I am trying to say is that (and I have heard it from Americans who live in Turkey) is that they are much more closed in terms of their personal space. My college teacher has talked about this before but it is really off topic. So you wake up, realise that there is a burglar at your home, you grab your gun and move as silently as possible,. You find burglar the sitting room, checking the stuff around. He is not aware of you, his back is turned to you, you don't care he is armed or not and shoot the guy in torso with 4 bullets. Poor bastard dies right there. Do you think this would constitute a proportional and necessary self defence case? I wouldn't do that personally for my own reasons but yes, that should hold up as self defense. It seems the person in that situation cared a great deal about whether or not that person was armed, hence explaining their action. Lets say your mother was in her home alone, and in her frightened state, she did EXACTLY what you described above. Would she deserve to go to prison? Or lets say she pointed the gun at him and yelled a warning, he jumps out of the way, draws his gun and kills her. Would you find solace knowing she did the "morally right" thing? Proportionality has no place in this argument. When someone initiates hostilities against you, you have the right to do whatever is necessary to feel safe.
And what if my answer to your hypothetical questions is:
In general yes, she would deserve to go to prison (there are a lot of "but"s in that, it depends on more details about the situation).
No I would not find any solace, yet I still support the laws to be as they are.
And in my book burglar does not initiate hostilities against me by being in my house.
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On June 30 2011 19:10 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 18:52 Morfildur wrote:On June 30 2011 18:35 mcc wrote:On June 30 2011 18:09 dapanman wrote:On June 30 2011 17:14 partisan wrote:On June 30 2011 17:08 KryptoStorm wrote:
Looks like every american TeamLiquidan owns a gun! Have you ever been to the states? There's a reason why we have the highest murder rate in the world. Not even close. Ok, 2nd highest of first world countries If you put it into relative numbers it sounds even worse: (Mostly random selection of countries) More than twice as many as South Korea Almost three times as many as Canada Almost four times as many as France and the UK More than four times as many as China, Greece and Italy About Five times as many as Denmark Almost six times as many as Spain, Sweden, Germany and Japan (All numbers per capita, not total) Anyways, let's not derail this further. Summary for this Thread: Shooting Burglars is bad. Stabbing them is bad, too. It's legal in the US and UK, but you still shouldn't do it. If you live in the US you'd probably do it anyways. I'm honestly not entirely sure that the murder rate has much to do with gun control laws in the United States. Before I go on I just want to say this is my opinion and I don't proclaim to be an expert on this or anything but what I've noticed in the US is that the sheer meshing and diversity of culture around here leaves more room for tension and so violent crime is simply more common. Our population is also plain larger and while I understand those numbers you gave are Per Capita, the sheer amount of population actually does mean something and make a difference. I think that and a combination of the drug trafficking that goes on in this country account for a large portion of the homicide rates we see. I am also not saying that other countries don't have the same problem, I just believe it's nowhere on the same scale. The murders I go to are very very rarely between "upstanding" citizens. Usually it's because some guy trolled another selling drugs on the wrong turf and it got taken personally. Criminals are really stupid people and still say things like "mad doggin me" at the age of 30. Then again it could be the guns lol.
He also for example provided China (question is how trustworthy they are), which has somewhat bigger population and is not even a first world country, and those tend to have higher crime rates.
As for gun laws, yes, people saying that everything would be solved by gun control laws are wrong as it is not that simple. But the murders you talk about , the ones between criminals, they are eased by guns and criminals get guns from the citizens, so if citizens do not have them, criminals also have trouble getting them.
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Shooting or stabbing a burglar that uses no force himself is retarded. How is your property worth more than the life of the burglar? Yes, if the burglar threatens you, or attacks you then go ahead.
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Hope we get this in holland too. Someone got robbed in there own house, then hit the burglar in the legs with a mini baseball bat. Got sued and the burglar won. Crazy world.
Gotta love great britain!
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EPT
