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Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
December 03 2019 13:42 GMT
#15001
When I say automaton, I am talking about the deep learning algorithms which appear to be capable of the difficult job of analysis. When your boiler breaks down and an app might be able to identify the problem, the component needed to fix it, and how to fix it all in real time, how many repairman will be needed? That utopian world is the ideal world; the only problem is getting to the society and technological level where it can be propogated to the entire population. The repairer would also like to be able to not work, and spend his time learning and travelling and feeling new experiences and cultures. But there he/she is repairing your machines that you own.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11505 Posts
December 03 2019 15:10 GMT
#15002
Indeed. I think there is a lot of cultural Stockholm syndrome in the view that humans need to do "a job" to be happy. Do you really think that most of the amazon delivery guys, burger flippers at McDonalds or cashiers at the supermarket would not be happier if automation could do their job, and they could just do whatever they want? The problem with that is that currently, if automation did their job, they would simply get nothing (and need to find an even shittier job), while Bezos would get even more money. But the solution is not to keep people in shitty jobs, it is to make sure that automation benefits all, and not just the owner class.

There might be an acclimatisation period where people take a while to figure out what to actually do if their job doesn't eat most of their waking hours. But considering that a lot of seniors seem to be able to live happy lives without a job doing whatever they enjoy with their free time, i don't think that that is fundamentally impossible for humans to do.

I highly doubt that the majority of people view their jobs as something fulfilling that they would volunteer to do if they wouldn't need to do it to survive. Some people, especially in the more intellectual jobs, probably would.I think those are in the minority.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
December 03 2019 15:28 GMT
#15003
--- Nuked ---
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 03 2019 15:50 GMT
#15004
So it turns out that interplanetary slave trading has no simple answers, or maybe dozens of simple answers, or maybe involves seven other topics.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6920 Posts
December 03 2019 16:19 GMT
#15005
On December 04 2019 00:50 Danglars wrote:
So it turns out that interplanetary slave trading has no simple answers, or maybe dozens of simple answers, or maybe involves seven other topics.


That is the beauty of this thread
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11822 Posts
December 03 2019 17:07 GMT
#15006
On December 04 2019 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I also notice that a lot of my co-workers who are old enough to retire do enjoy their jobs more then the younger people who have to do the jobs. I think not "having to" changes perspective.

I also think that if automation does a lot of the jobs there will be a lot more service jobs as people will have more time to play. And things like teaching second languages, art, travel guides, music and so on. Probably more craftsman type jobs if peoples needs are met and they can do what they want, perhaps still with some reward.


A lot of the older people you work with have likely settled into this area as something they enjoy over a career of different trades. There will be many older people not enjoying their work as well.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-03 17:18:29
December 03 2019 17:11 GMT
#15007
In my experience most retired people enjoy visiting and chatting with their friends and relatives, usually structured around social activities, but not necessarily so. It's almost as if they are normal humans like the rest of us.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
December 03 2019 17:14 GMT
#15008
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23214 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-03 17:23:51
December 03 2019 17:21 GMT
#15009
On December 04 2019 02:14 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2019 02:07 Yurie wrote:
On December 04 2019 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I also notice that a lot of my co-workers who are old enough to retire do enjoy their jobs more then the younger people who have to do the jobs. I think not "having to" changes perspective.

I also think that if automation does a lot of the jobs there will be a lot more service jobs as people will have more time to play. And things like teaching second languages, art, travel guides, music and so on. Probably more craftsman type jobs if peoples needs are met and they can do what they want, perhaps still with some reward.


A lot of the older people you work with have likely settled into this area as something they enjoy over a career of different trades. There will be many older people not enjoying their work as well.

Yes, but those people have to work! I don't think I know anyone over 60 who doesn't need to work, and is but hates their job.

While I agree some of it is that they have now progressed to what they like, I do think that it is a choice they have instead of something forced upon them because of financial need make s a difference as well.


Do you not know anyone married over 60?

I kid, but a lot of people would rather be at a job they hate with people they like (or have to act like they like the older worker because of their position in the business) than a home that's meh with a person they both love and despise (or alone).

EDIT: It's not easy breaking into new social hobbies/groups as a boomer I imagine.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
December 03 2019 17:24 GMT
#15010
--- Nuked ---
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
December 03 2019 17:25 GMT
#15011
If they don't need to work, but hate their job, they wouldn't be working then would they? Of course they as don't they can simply not do that job. If they need to work, they will work irrespective of whether they hate it or not. It's a self selection sample bias.

JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
December 03 2019 17:29 GMT
#15012
--- Nuked ---
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
December 03 2019 18:09 GMT
#15013
That's very strange to be honest. Would the same job you hate, turn into a job you love, simply because you can collect a pension? I'm not retired but I cannot think of why that would be the case.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11505 Posts
December 03 2019 18:24 GMT
#15014
Dunno, imagine the effect the other way around. There is something that you enjoy, but then you have to do that thing, 8 hours a day, every day a week, because it is your job. I can easily imagine starting to hate that thing you loved.

And i can also imagine it the other way around. Self-determination theory states that one of the factors which gives you motivation is autonomy (the others are relatedness and a feeling of competence). If you feel like you are making relevant decisions, that increases the chance of you feeling motivated to do the thing. And that can disappear once it is your job, and appears if it is something you don't have to do.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-03 18:52:16
December 03 2019 18:49 GMT
#15015
--- Nuked ---
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-03 19:19:18
December 03 2019 19:15 GMT
#15016
And yet, the majority of people who are over the retirement age don't work.

I don't understand why you would feel the need to convince yourself that when you turn 60, you would suddenly love working a job you hate.The ones that need to work will continue to work.

The ones who don't need to work and hate their jobs, wouldn't be working at those jobs anymore would they? That you cannot find anyone over retirement age who doesn't need to work, and is, but hates their job is simply a case of self-selection bias.

Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4762 Posts
December 03 2019 19:30 GMT
#15017
There are definitely a lot of people that love their jobs and keep working after their retirement age.
Taxes are for Terrans
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
December 03 2019 19:32 GMT
#15018
--- Nuked ---
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11505 Posts
December 03 2019 19:33 GMT
#15019
I don't think that anyone disagrees with that.

The points made were:

Sometimes people work in jobs they like, even if they don't have to.
Sometimes people start to like a job they disliked if they don't have to do it anymore, and thus fall into the first category.

None of that contradicts that most people don't want to work a job if they don't have to anymore. It also doesn't imply that everyone suddenly starts loving their job once they turn 60.

And while the selection bias that you mention exists, it is not really pertinent to what was being talked about here. Because no one was making any general statements beyond "those people exist", which is the one situation where anecdotal evidence is actually relevant. Existence can be proven by a single occurence.

The original point which seems to have sparked this was: "Yes, but those people have to work! I don't think I know anyone over 60 who doesn't need to work, and is but hates their job. " by JimmiC. Which seems to be along the lines of what you want to convince people about, but you still seem to argue against it? Namely, that people who don't like their job and don't have to do it anymore stop doing it.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-03 19:45:53
December 03 2019 19:45 GMT
#15020
I'm not arguing that people who love their jobs don't exist. Where on Earth do you get that impression from?

I am arguing that people who don't need to work, but do so, is selection bias for loving that work.

______
Also at JimmiC I have no idea what you are talking about the environment thread.
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