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While I think it's definitely true to say that the West is "better" in terms of gender based discrimination, I don't think global comparisons make much sense.
In other words, I should have read who SoSexy was replying to 
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On April 27 2016 23:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 22:37 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 09:17 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. Agree to disagree on this. There's a wealth of data showing how women are discriminated against in western society. It's not a matter of opinion unfortunately. I'm in science, so I know the examples from science. Some of the most striking studies are applications for positions that were sent to different places with male and female names, otherwise identical. And of course, the applications with male names got a lot more invitations for interviews than the applications with female names. I know the same has been done by (fiction book) authors, sent the same book to several places under male and female names, and the male names got like 2x the callbacks, and the declined books got much harsher criticism if you had a female name on it. There is also a wealth of situations where men are discriminated against. The easiest example is in divorce court when custody of a child is involved.
That's a crappy example. You can very easily argue that the child belongs more to the mother than to the father, especially young children. You know, as she carries it around inside her for 9 months. And then breast feeds the baby for fair while after that. And in general stays home from work with the kid a lot longer than the dad. It would be discrimination to not acknowledge that difference in court.
But please tell me more about the rest of this wealth of situations where men are discriminated against...
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On April 27 2016 23:37 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 12:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 27 2016 11:48 JimmiC wrote:
Since gay men are into men how come a hyper masculine ideal is not what they are after and how they act. Most gay men are more feminine with some being hyper feminine does this not some what go against what they "should" be attracted too. Same thing for lesbians. Cart before the horse. First, the phrase "most gay men are more feminine" is false. The gay men who are feminine are ones you are able to more easily perceive as gay--but that does not mean that being gay and being feminine are causative. There are men and women who embody what we have deemed as "feminine" traits. When gay men do this, society finds it more acceptable because they are already outsiders anyway. Straight men who are like this are shunned and are usually accused of being gay, or treated as such. The truth is that there isn't really such a thing as "feminine traits" and "masculine traits" but simply human traits wherein we project whether that trait is masculine or feminine (pitch of voice for example). Men in western societies are super policed and super controlled to perform to gender norms, but since we praise those gender norms no one bats an eye. No looks at a body builder who eats lots of meat and goes "isn't it weird that he likes being strong?" because it is assumed that those types of traits are what we should naturally strive for. In a truly gender equal society, men acting "feminine" would be considered as straight as men acting "masculine" because the concept of masculine and feminine outside of biology would be weird to that society. We are a long way from there, mainly because the west is super misogynist, but mainly because we are only just starting to really explore what that means from societal identity perspective. I'm not sure that is the truth, but that is a whole nature nurture argument. I can tell you I know about 15 gay people and would consider 8 friends. All of the men would be considered feminine. Now its a spectrum and they all fall somewhere on it. Some like some traditional "masculine" activities and so on. But the more masculine the gay guy is it appears the more feminine his partner is. Which brings up some other interesting questions.
That's also because social norms are performative. We teach people that partners has a "man" and a "woman" in the relationship--hence the question "who's the man in the relationship."
For example, women are continually told that their beauty is the most important aspect to their being. We tell them in stories, movies, magazines, etc... So most women believe us. Homosexuals are not immune to those cultural teachings.
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On April 27 2016 23:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 22:37 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 09:17 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. Agree to disagree on this. There's a wealth of data showing how women are discriminated against in western society. It's not a matter of opinion unfortunately. I'm in science, so I know the examples from science. Some of the most striking studies are applications for positions that were sent to different places with male and female names, otherwise identical. And of course, the applications with male names got a lot more invitations for interviews than the applications with female names. I know the same has been done by (fiction book) authors, sent the same book to several places under male and female names, and the male names got like 2x the callbacks, and the declined books got much harsher criticism if you had a female name on it. There is also a wealth of situations where men are discriminated against. The easiest example is in divorce court when custody of a child is involved. I was many disagreeing with his statement that we are "slightly better" than the rest of the world. When you consider that in many places in the world women are property and can't get a education and so on. Perfect we are not. Improving we are. And light years of where we were. It is never going to happen overnight and will happen gradually over time as long as that is the goal. Pretending that there has been no improvements and that it is awful is both wrong and insulting to western women.
Saying that we are misogynistic =/= saying that there has been no improvement. There has been, and there are people who are worse off than us, but that doesn't mean the west isn't deeply misogynistic. Just the past two years or so there have been many reports in American news of men killing women who don't go on dates with them, men who go on shooting sprees because women don't throw themselves on him, etc... This is in the richest country in the western world, in recent times. This country needs to do a whole lot better and needs to do a whole lot more.
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On April 27 2016 23:51 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 23:33 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 22:37 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 09:17 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. Agree to disagree on this. There's a wealth of data showing how women are discriminated against in western society. It's not a matter of opinion unfortunately. I'm in science, so I know the examples from science. Some of the most striking studies are applications for positions that were sent to different places with male and female names, otherwise identical. And of course, the applications with male names got a lot more invitations for interviews than the applications with female names. I know the same has been done by (fiction book) authors, sent the same book to several places under male and female names, and the male names got like 2x the callbacks, and the declined books got much harsher criticism if you had a female name on it. There is also a wealth of situations where men are discriminated against. The easiest example is in divorce court when custody of a child is involved. That's a crappy example. You can very easily argue that the child belongs more to the mother than to the father, especially young children. You know, as she carries it around inside her for 9 months. And then breast feeds the baby for fair while after that. And in general stays home from work with the kid a lot longer than the dad. It would be discrimination to not acknowledge that difference in court. But please tell me more about the rest of this wealth of situations where men are discriminated against...
shouldn't who would raise the child better kinda take precedence? gender bias goes both ways and, yeah, in most cases its a result of the fact that women were oppressed for so long. ignoring the fact that good fathers are denied visitation rights/custody because of this hereditary bias doesn't help the bigger problem of hundreds of women being killed for refusing to become sex slaves.
hell a chick just got beat the fuck up on the street in europe by conservatives that didnt like what she was wearing
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On April 27 2016 19:38 Zambrah wrote:
Whats the best proleague team and why is it SKT
Because they have fucktons of money. Winning is easy when you have money.
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On April 27 2016 20:07 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 19:38 Zambrah wrote:
Whats the best proleague team and why is it SKT That's the worst [BEST!] misspelling of JinAir I have ever seen
Corrected for you 
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Those are not cultural teachings. A lot more things are wired up in the brain in early embrio stages as an effect of testosterone level and other hormones. No matter what society tries to teach, we are still animals and both genders display different behaviours and instincts. Of course it is not universal and there are shades of gray but there are predispositions to certain things.
Just like in general women like men because of how they think, and men like women because of how they look. That's why women use makeup and men lie.
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On April 27 2016 23:29 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 23:15 SoSexy wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. I had to cringe at this one. You need to calm down. Women in the Western World are so discriminated against. The president of the most powerful country in Europe is a woman, the director of the IMF is a woman and probably the most important role in western politics will belong to a woman in November. Meanwhile in middle-east...how can you even believe something like that? There is no doubt that there is discrimination going on in the western world, but yes, other parts of the world have it much worse. A quick google found me this heatmap of some gender equality index. Western world indeed ranked highest, india, middle east and northern africa ranked lowest. interactive heatmap (dark is more equal) rankingscreenshot of the heatmap for those that are lazy (US ranked 20): + Show Spoiler +There seem to be a couple other indexes around as well if you don't trust this specific one, which just happened to be the first hit for me. I'm sure they'll tell the same story.
God damn it we need to get our shit together, most of Europe is behind Nicaragua and Rwanda
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On April 28 2016 00:09 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 23:29 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 23:15 SoSexy wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. I had to cringe at this one. You need to calm down. Women in the Western World are so discriminated against. The president of the most powerful country in Europe is a woman, the director of the IMF is a woman and probably the most important role in western politics will belong to a woman in November. Meanwhile in middle-east...how can you even believe something like that? There is no doubt that there is discrimination going on in the western world, but yes, other parts of the world have it much worse. A quick google found me this heatmap of some gender equality index. Western world indeed ranked highest, india, middle east and northern africa ranked lowest. interactive heatmap (dark is more equal) rankingscreenshot of the heatmap for those that are lazy (US ranked 20): + Show Spoiler +There seem to be a couple other indexes around as well if you don't trust this specific one, which just happened to be the first hit for me. I'm sure they'll tell the same story. God damn it we need to get our shit together, most of Europe is behind Nicaragua and Rwanda
We do indeed. Apart from the moral issue of discriminating 50% of the population, we are also missing out on a lot of very talented awesome scientists and authors. Amongst others.
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On April 28 2016 00:09 Nazara wrote:
Those are not cultural teachings. A lot more things are wired up in the brain in early embrio stages as an effect of testosterone level and other hormones. No matter what society tries to teach, we are still animals and both genders display different behaviours and instincts. Of course it is not universal and there are shades of gray but there are predispositions to certain things.
Just like in general women like men because of how they think, and men like women because of how they look. That's why women use makeup and men lie.
Yeah, because animals have no culture. Also wtf is that shit, if women like men because of how they think and not because of how they look I'm surrounded by women who are in fact men Oo (in addition, in certain societies men use makeup too, and women lie in all societies, so ???)
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On April 28 2016 00:09 Nazara wrote:
Those are not cultural teachings. A lot more things are wired up in the brain in early embrio stages as an effect of testosterone level and other hormones. No matter what society tries to teach, we are still animals and both genders display different behaviours and instincts. Of course it is not universal and there are shades of gray but there are predispositions to certain things.
Just like in general women like men because of how they think, and men like women because of how they look. That's why women use makeup and men lie.
Its weird that with all the shaving kits, regular haircuts, gels, and cologne--women are still being described as the one with beauty products. And its weird that you would assume women don't lie.
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On April 28 2016 00:36 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 23:51 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 23:33 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 22:37 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 09:17 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. Agree to disagree on this. There's a wealth of data showing how women are discriminated against in western society. It's not a matter of opinion unfortunately. I'm in science, so I know the examples from science. Some of the most striking studies are applications for positions that were sent to different places with male and female names, otherwise identical. And of course, the applications with male names got a lot more invitations for interviews than the applications with female names. I know the same has been done by (fiction book) authors, sent the same book to several places under male and female names, and the male names got like 2x the callbacks, and the declined books got much harsher criticism if you had a female name on it. There is also a wealth of situations where men are discriminated against. The easiest example is in divorce court when custody of a child is involved. That's a crappy example. You can very easily argue that the child belongs more to the mother than to the father, especially young children. You know, as she carries it around inside her for 9 months. And then breast feeds the baby for fair while after that. And in general stays home from work with the kid a lot longer than the dad. It would be discrimination to not acknowledge that difference in court. But please tell me more about the rest of this wealth of situations where men are discriminated against... That is such a sexist thing to say. Arguing that women are better parents with out looking at each situation individually. Next thing you are going to tell me that men make better firefighters police officers and soldiers because of their physiological strength advantages. Situation B: two applicants apply for the job one is male one is female. Female has less experience and performs worse in interview. Woman get's job because of lack of women in the field. Another situation women walks onto the bus there is no seat open man gets up and lets her have seat. What a sexist! There are many situations of sexism not all are bad or wrong. And some are there to attempt to make up for past wrongs and general wrongs in society. Pretending they don't exist is pointless. Also, the fact that you believe women are better parents makes you sexist. Just because it is against men doesn't make it not sexism. I know many many great fathers and some pretty shitty moms. There are both. Another example of sexism is most sitcoms have a dumb male making mistakes and some smart women who fixes it and helps the man be a better person. Imagine the show everybody loves Raymond with a gender reversal of the two main characters. People would be grabbing their pitchforks!
Custody law is the way it is because most men run away from the kid, and the system autocorrects for it. Is it wrong? Sure, lots of things are wrong in this country. But its the way it is because of how men act about being made responsible for beings other than himself.
Everybody Loves Raymond is completely sexist to both genders. Raymond is considered stupid while his wife is considered too good for him, but is expected to love him anyway despite never really giving her anything because its not a woman's choice who she is with. Women are expected to stay with people who are ugly, lazy, and spends most of their energy fighting with and harassing them. Because when you're in a bad relationship its not your call to make a better life for yourself, it is the man's call to make that life for you.
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On April 28 2016 00:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2016 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 23:51 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 23:33 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 22:37 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 09:17 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. Agree to disagree on this. There's a wealth of data showing how women are discriminated against in western society. It's not a matter of opinion unfortunately. I'm in science, so I know the examples from science. Some of the most striking studies are applications for positions that were sent to different places with male and female names, otherwise identical. And of course, the applications with male names got a lot more invitations for interviews than the applications with female names. I know the same has been done by (fiction book) authors, sent the same book to several places under male and female names, and the male names got like 2x the callbacks, and the declined books got much harsher criticism if you had a female name on it. There is also a wealth of situations where men are discriminated against. The easiest example is in divorce court when custody of a child is involved. That's a crappy example. You can very easily argue that the child belongs more to the mother than to the father, especially young children. You know, as she carries it around inside her for 9 months. And then breast feeds the baby for fair while after that. And in general stays home from work with the kid a lot longer than the dad. It would be discrimination to not acknowledge that difference in court. But please tell me more about the rest of this wealth of situations where men are discriminated against... That is such a sexist thing to say. Arguing that women are better parents with out looking at each situation individually. Next thing you are going to tell me that men make better firefighters police officers and soldiers because of their physiological strength advantages. Situation B: two applicants apply for the job one is male one is female. Female has less experience and performs worse in interview. Woman get's job because of lack of women in the field. Another situation women walks onto the bus there is no seat open man gets up and lets her have seat. What a sexist! There are many situations of sexism not all are bad or wrong. And some are there to attempt to make up for past wrongs and general wrongs in society. Pretending they don't exist is pointless. Also, the fact that you believe women are better parents makes you sexist. Just because it is against men doesn't make it not sexism. I know many many great fathers and some pretty shitty moms. There are both. Another example of sexism is most sitcoms have a dumb male making mistakes and some smart women who fixes it and helps the man be a better person. Imagine the show everybody loves Raymond with a gender reversal of the two main characters. People would be grabbing their pitchforks! Custody law is the way it is because most men run away from the kid, and the system autocorrects for it. Is it wrong? Sure, lots of things are wrong in this country. But its the way it is because of how men act about being made responsible for beings other than himself. Everybody Loves Raymond is completely sexist to both genders. Raymond is considered stupid while his wife is considered too good for him, but is expected to love him anyway despite never really giving her anything because its not a woman's choice who she is with. Women are expected to stay with people who are ugly, lazy, and spends most of their energy fighting with and harassing them. Because when you're in a bad relationship its not your call to make a better life for yourself, it is the man's call to make that life for you.
Isn't saying that most men run away from the kid sexist?
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On April 28 2016 00:36 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 23:51 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 23:33 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 22:37 Cascade wrote:On April 27 2016 09:17 JimmiC wrote:On April 27 2016 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote:On April 27 2016 06:35 JimmiC wrote:
I would say feminism has been very successful in the western world and in some cases to the point where the extremists have pushed the pendulum past equal. In the rest of the world it has a long ways to go.
I think it's an odd thing but often the most extreme people of any movement tend to do harm to that movement. Where as the person most skilled or talented and something tends to the most for it. I believe the west is very very misogynistic and is only slightly better than most of the world--and I'm not even certain about that. Agree to disagree on this. There's a wealth of data showing how women are discriminated against in western society. It's not a matter of opinion unfortunately. I'm in science, so I know the examples from science. Some of the most striking studies are applications for positions that were sent to different places with male and female names, otherwise identical. And of course, the applications with male names got a lot more invitations for interviews than the applications with female names. I know the same has been done by (fiction book) authors, sent the same book to several places under male and female names, and the male names got like 2x the callbacks, and the declined books got much harsher criticism if you had a female name on it. There is also a wealth of situations where men are discriminated against. The easiest example is in divorce court when custody of a child is involved. That's a crappy example. You can very easily argue that the child belongs more to the mother than to the father, especially young children. You know, as she carries it around inside her for 9 months. And then breast feeds the baby for fair while after that. And in general stays home from work with the kid a lot longer than the dad. It would be discrimination to not acknowledge that difference in court. But please tell me more about the rest of this wealth of situations where men are discriminated against... That is such a sexist thing to say. Arguing that women are better parents with out looking at each situation individually. Next thing you are going to tell me that men make better firefighters police officers and soldiers because of their physiological strength advantages. Situation B: two applicants apply for the job one is male one is female. Female has less experience and performs worse in interview. Woman get's job because of lack of women in the field. Another situation women walks onto the bus there is no seat open man gets up and lets her have seat. What a sexist! There are many situations of sexism not all are bad or wrong. And some are there to attempt to make up for past wrongs and general wrongs in society. Pretending they don't exist is pointless. Also, the fact that you believe women are better parents makes you sexist. Just because it is against men doesn't make it not sexism. I know many many great fathers and some pretty shitty moms. There are both. Another example of sexism is most sitcoms have a dumb male making mistakes and some smart women who fixes it and helps the man be a better person. Imagine the show everybody loves Raymond with a gender reversal of the two main characters. People would be grabbing their pitchforks!
You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.
- I nowhere said mothers are better parents.
- I nowhere said men have to give their seats to women.
- I nowhere argued for quotas.
And there's a reason I didn't say these things. So that we could start from a common ground with things that are either empirical data, or at least uncontroversial arguments. I was hoping for some kind of constructive discussion, but I see now that that may not happen. So well, go ahead and argue with the strawman if you feel like, but I won't join.
If you want to move back to a discussion with what I actually wrote, here is a summary:
- women are discriminated against in employment in science.
- women are discriminated against when published in fiction.
- women put in more time and effort in getting a child.
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Guys I love to debate feminism as much as the next guy, but you do realize you took the troll bait, took it out for dinner, showed it a good time, got it breakfast, called 15 minutes after, and now it thinks you're getting kinda clingy.
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On April 28 2016 01:02 Yoav wrote:
Guys I love to debate feminism as much as the next guy, but you do realize you took the troll bait, took it out for dinner, showed it a good time, got it breakfast, called 15 minutes after, and now it thinks you're getting kinda clingy.
Ahaha, pretty accurate, yes.
The unease felt by the troll from the clingyness was a nice touch, gj.
I managed to stay out first 2-3 pages, and then came in when it was dying down and fired it up again. :o
Ok, screw feminism discussion then. New Q:
can you learn to sleep fewer hours, and still function as well as before, even with an intellectually demanding daytime work? How?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wiY6Rqb.png)
