What would happen if US pulls out of SK and Japan?
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kaisen
United States601 Posts
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Voltaire
United States1485 Posts
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:32 kaisen wrote: Politically speaking, what would happen if US pulls troops out of South Korea and Japan? This is an interesting question because right now there is a huge power struggle in East Asia between china and US. At the moment, both South Korea and Japan are paying billions of dollars for US bases every year and both countries want US troops to stay. But what would happen if US completely pulls out of East Asia? China wants US gone from the region, along with their sphere of influence. US is using both South korea and Japan as buffer zone for china. Will china become sole dominant power in Asia and both South Korea and Japan fall under china's influence? Will US ever pull troops out of both SK and Japan? the US would pull out if Ron Paul ever comes to power. Nothing would really happen with China/US in the forseeable future tbh. Only thing why they shouldnt pull out of SK/Japan is ebcause of North Korea. Also, the US should just decommission their bases in Europe already... Its unlikely Russia would invade Europe already. | ||
Skee
Canada702 Posts
Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea. | ||
Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
IF the United States were to remove its military from East Asia(not just Japan and South Korea), then neither country would be able to defend itself effectively against China and North Korea without the aid of the US or a more powerful country. The entire area would become reliant on China for economic growth. But really, the US would never leave those countries. They are to valuable to its national interest. | ||
Crisco
1170 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:37 Skee wrote: What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean. Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea. Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's | ||
lilky
United States131 Posts
Im south korean, and from our perspective, this is what we know to be the truth. | ||
whiteguycash
United States476 Posts
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kaisen
United States601 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:41 lilky wrote: If the U.S. ever pulls out of South Korea and Japan, the North Koreans will first invade Japan, then most likely South Korea. Im south korean, and from our perspective, this is what we know to be the truth. China makes so much money by trading with both Japan and South Korea. They are not gonna just sit down and let and watch North Korea do whatever it wants to do. | ||
DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
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Sovetsky Soyuz
Russian Federation905 Posts
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Skee
Canada702 Posts
But they are a first world country with great industrial capacity, as well as the fact the vastly larger population for drafting and even if North Korea did begin drafting, their population is malnourished and wouldn't support their government in the first place. Regardless, I don't really know much, so I am going to stop preaching theoretical statements and not come back to this thread before I embarrass myself, lol. | ||
Voltaire
United States1485 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote: If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific. This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII. | ||
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:39 PraetorialGamer wrote: In answer to your last question: no, never. The United States is not exactly using Japan and South Korea as a "buffer", in your terms, but as economic allies. The military presence of the United States in South Korea is mainly a justification to act against North Korea, as the first area to be hit would be the DMZ, and consequentially, the troops stationed there. IF the United States were to remove its military from East Asia(not just Japan and South Korea), then neither country would be able to defend itself effectively against China and North Korea without the aid of the US or a more powerful country. The entire area would become reliant on China for economic growth. But really, the US would never leave those countries. They are to valuable to its national interest. I don't see why the US military pulling out of the region would imply the end of US trade with the region. I also think that the US will eventually leave. Maintaining military bases overseas is expensive and the US economy isn't doing that well. I expect SK and Japan to remain US allies for some time to come. But eventually shifting geopolitics may change that, as well. | ||
Feridan
Denmark33 Posts
They'll have to keep bases up in those areas for a very long time yet. | ||
Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote: If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific. What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize | ||
exog
Norway279 Posts
As NK has a mad dictator-family, its very possible they would "retake whats theirs with the blesing of (insert god here)", or any other stupid reason like the americans do all the time. If this happen its very possible that china would support them for political/economicals reasons without dirtying their hands. | ||
NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:53 Voltaire wrote: This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII. What stops NK or China from taking over? It is actually a good thing that we are still in SK they can concentrate their money on things that aren't military related improving the living conditions of the country. Japan on the other hand could probably defend themselves now. | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote: What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize wut they HAVE an army, just that its made so that its for defensive purposes only. | ||
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote: The world economic system basically needs one superpower to keep the global sea trading lanes open - used to be the British Empire that filled that role, but after the world wars the US discovered that it had to take over. They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals etc, since they are so dependent on them - and so is the rest of the world. We need the US to maintain that role. If they go all isolationist on us, all hell will break loose between up-and-coming powers seeking to take over in their own spheres of influence: russia in the arctic, china, japan and indonesia in the yellow sea and straits of malacca, brazil in the atlantic and panama, and turkey in the middle east (bab-el-mandeb, suez, hormuz). If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so? | ||
Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:59 Azarkon wrote: If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so? Suggesting that all leaders, governments, and countries would think and act rationally is naive to a certain point. The short answer is "no" they wouldn't do that without trying to swindle some kind of advantage, leverage, or benefit. | ||
Telebear
United Kingdom107 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote: Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's size of an army means nothing especially when compared to the strength of the South Korean air force and naval capacities as well as having the most modern military equipment on the planet, just because North Korea has more land troops means nothing in terms of their military capabilties | ||
Railz
United States1449 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote: What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces Oh they have an army alright. And a mechanized infantry. And a navy. Japan and US are huge tech traders in terms of military. | ||
Telebear
United Kingdom107 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote: They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals . have you ever heard of the suez crisis?? The US allowed the situation you're describing as not happening to happen | ||
exog
Norway279 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:59 Azarkon wrote: If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so? Stop being rational and sensible, this is international politics, money, sex, murders and all that jazz. "Benefits", "truth" and "reason" has nothing to do with this. Those concepts are far to advanced for the stone-age thought process of "the strongest is right". | ||
Starcraftplaylist
194 Posts
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decemvre
Romania639 Posts
![]() atm the US is 14.000 billion in debt; 1.400 to china alone. They have already begun to cut funds from NASA etc but very soon they will begin to cut funds from the army. There's no other option since the US citizens already have bad healthcare and other social services. There is nowhere to cut funds from anymore. | ||
Feridan
Denmark33 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:59 Azarkon wrote: If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so? A regional player can gain a lot by flexing their muscles and stopping trade. Just think with Turkey - they can't get into the EU, and the Arab states are falling apart. They ride in to the rescue, become the dominant power in the region, giving aid, propping up new governments etc - the other Sunni muslims are grateful, Turkey becomes the new power - and then it's the US and Israel vs every other Sunni country in the region. If they decide they don't want oil or other goods to go through their sea lanes, or only allow ships through of countries that agree to condemn Israel, what is everyone else going to do about it? Same principle in SE asia. Lots of Chinese communities living in countries throughout the area, China might need to 'protect their people', which requires a naval presence - aaaand maybe they start stopping ships of nations that disagree with their mandate - etc etc. | ||
Crisco
1170 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:02 Telebear wrote: size of an army means nothing especially when compared to the strength of the South Korean air force and naval capacities as well as having the most modern military equipment on the planet, just because North Korea has more land troops means nothing in terms of their military capabilties actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support. | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:18 Crisco wrote: actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support. well, NK has enough artillery/bombs to flatten Seoul | ||
Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
If the US did pull out troops then it would destabilize the region, because many Asian countries see the US presence as a strong deterrent to the expanding powers and ambitions of the Chinese military. | ||
decemvre
Romania639 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:18 Crisco wrote: actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support. You've got to be kidding. Have you checked South Korea's GDP recently ? Equipment is easy to buy at any time. South Koreans probably want the US there because they just don't want to invest into the equipment themselves. | ||
Spacely
United States108 Posts
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Telebear
United Kingdom107 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:18 Crisco wrote: [ actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support. South Korea has one of the best equipped militaries in the world with the latest technology and equipment numbers aren't an issue size doesnt matter if you're using arms from the 1970's against arms from the 21st century here is an interesting post on the strength and capabilties of the North Korean army http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes | ||
DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII. Ummm, this is why China is upgrading their navy and air force and to a slightly lesser degree their army, there is no arms race. What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize Wrong... And to people who think that Japan would be violating some UN resolution if they were to "re-militarize," totally wrong. Only Japanese law (specifically their constitution) restricts their military. Their constitution says they are not allowed to have any offensive forces whatsoever. That's why their army and navy and air force have "Self-Defense" in the title, that's the only constitutional thing for them to do, they're allowed to have "self-defense forces." Japan has already become more and more right-wing in its foreign policy especially toward North Korea, if the US left Tokyo and Seoul would both be terrified of Pyongyang and would greatly increase their forces as a result. Japan does not like and is very suspicious of NK especially because of the decades of NK kidnapping random Japanese off Japanese beaches to train NK spies on how to act Japanese. Japan can change its constitution whenever it wants. have you ever heard of the suez crisis?? The US allowed the situation you're describing as not happening to happen Ummm... wrong. England and France approached Israel and said we're going to attack Egypt you should help us because hurting Egypt will help you in the short and long run. Israel said okay. England and France went to Eisenhower and said you should come too and he said no, and we can't support you in doing it. Don't do it. England and France did it and the US did not support them and forced London and Paris to accept a cease-fire when the USSR threatened to get involved. In England especially what the US did was viewed as the death knell of the British empire and was not very well received by the Brits. | ||
haduken
Australia8267 Posts
China is not going to wage wall on them because it does absolutely nothing for China. Short of a military regime take over and go on a revenge against Japan for the past wars, I just don't see how China would fight Japan. What would they accomplish except killing Japanese for the sake of killing Japanese? They are no oil or resource in Japan or Korea. Japanese navy alone is enough to stop any Chinese aggression. Land army and tanks don't mean shit when you can't land them. The game has changed. No sane country is going to attack another for land anymore. It is all about the resources. Now, about the oil under the sea, that might be something and is a good reason for some build up and posturing but again, unless Japan/Korea totally fuck up their intelligence and upgrades they will still be ahead. If US pulls out, then in a few decades we will just see both countries arm themselves to appease their voters and in a few decades they will become closely with China due to economic reasons. I don't think a lot of people understand the amount of investments and money that Japan is making from China. They have a lot at stake just like the west so a war is very unlikely. | ||
Voltaire
United States1485 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:58 NoobSkills wrote: What stops NK or China from taking over? It is actually a good thing that we are still in SK they can concentrate their money on things that aren't military related improving the living conditions of the country. Japan on the other hand could probably defend themselves now. SK can defend itself from NK. You are completely naive if you think China would invade. | ||
ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
In general, the US and China are fairly strong allies and have a good history. The 700b that US spends on military protects a lot of countries. The range of the US military is quite extensive and is one of hte reasons why we have general stability in the world. W/out a standing superpower (china would theoretically take its place) the geography of eastern Europe, middle east, Africa, central and south America would probably change constantly. | ||
Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
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Popss
Sweden176 Posts
Those bases was never really popular to begin with for obvious reasons. | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:59 Popss wrote: I think its more likely that U.S. will be forced to leave rather than them making that decision themselves. Those bases was never really popular to begin with for obvious reasons. never popular? among who? South Korea, Japan and USA enjoy really good relations in military and economic terms | ||
Popss
Sweden176 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:01 thoradycus wrote: never popular? among who? South Korea, Japan and USA enjoy really good relations in military and economic terms General population. EDIT: Hmm I did some research and I'm wrong on this one. | ||
Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion. | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote: If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days. The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion. any chance u hav source? im interested in this kind of stuff lol | ||
dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote: If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days. The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion. not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so. for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya. | ||
SorYu
Netherlands75 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote: along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. . can they take their nukes with them too we store for them..stupid junk, we dont want this in europe (Netherlands) | ||
Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote: If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days. The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion. The aftermath of that war would be just miserable. Seoul, being so close to the border and the target of a metric fuckton of long-range artillery, would have been bombarded to rubble (or even nuked) and there would be millions of brainwashed, unemployable (due to lack of industrial skills) North Koreans looking for food, work and shelter. | ||
aqui
Germany1023 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:20 SorYu wrote: can they take their nukes with them too we store for them..stupid junk, we dont want this in europe (Netherlands) Yeah, that'll just leave UK and France.. and the other countries that didn't disclose their development. Politically I can only see China asserting increased influence over SK and Japan if the United States were to suddenly leave. I don't know if that's for better or worse but I'm certain that would be the result. But we HAVE to cut funding to the military. The national debt is disgusting. | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:22 Bibdy wrote: The aftermath of that war would be just miserable. Seoul, being so close to the border and the target of a metric fuckton of long-range artillery, would have been bombarded to rubble (or even nuked) and there would be millions of brainwashed, unemployable (due to lack of industrial skills) North Koreans looking for food, work and shelter. yea, their economy would be hit very hard. | ||
Redlol
United States181 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:53 Voltaire wrote: This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII. Look at the German military/submarine buildup before World War II, the world relaxed the World War I restrictions because they were outdated(bit of an oversimplification but the point stands). Similarly if the Japanese were to start building their military they would likely be allowed to as long as it was within reason. On June 26 2011 03:20 dybydx wrote: not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so. for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya. You never, ever have the right to genocide which is what really happened in Libya. | ||
zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote: If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days. The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion. Air superiorty doesn't stop rockets and artillery shells from hitting Seoul. SK will never be the agressor so any situation begins with the initial strike coming from NK. SK simply will not survive the initial atack. Their entire country is within instant range of NK weaponry. The only tactic that SK has is stalling for international (USA) help wich they well get. The question is how many million will die before they get their help. not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so. for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya. Millions of people will die and an entire nation will be thrown into poverty. Their entire industry destroyed within days. But ofcourse "they" should have at it. The frightenting mind of a colectivist thinker who has passed the threshold and consider the intrest of nations to supercede the intrests of people living in said nations. | ||
FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
Yes, because NK spends something like 16% GDP on defense... That's appalling. Most countries sit around 1-4%. Priorities are disgusting within that government system... | ||
Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
When there are some events which would suggest that this is an issue to speak of, then i'm very interested in discussing it, since i study international relations at my university. | ||
dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:26 Redlol wrote: Look at the German military/submarine buildup before World War II, the world relaxed the World War I restrictions because they were outdated(bit of an oversimplification but the point stands). Similarly if the Japanese were to start building their military they would likely be allowed to as long as it was within reason. Japan spends nearly as much on defense as Russia. although i heard that Japanese themselves have very low opinion of the army and that those who join are viewed as incompetent unemployed youths. | ||
NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:20 dybydx wrote: not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so. for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya. Excuse me? That's appalling. Did you somehow miss out on world history and forget about the holocaust, which spawned the UN's drive to "never again" allow for such slaughter? The UN's primary security purpose is to "prevent and protect". This issue emerged again in Rwanda in the 90s, whereby an even greater promise was made after the fact to "never again permit this genocide". You might think it's okay to let systematic slaughter of thousands - millions - to occur, but fortunately the UN and most of the world do not. NK deciding to steamroll Seoul in a barrage of missiles would not be an act of war. It would be an act of genocide - in Libya, Qaddafi's imminent actions in Benghazi would have been a genocide of over 700,000 - again, not an act of war. Genocide, mass slaughter, and other humanitarian crimes are not to be ignored just because "people should have the right to duke it out" - that's incredibly naive. People should not have the right to "duke it out". | ||
Cyba
Romania221 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:32 dybydx wrote: Japan spends nearly as much on defense as Russia. although i heard that Japanese themselves have very low opinion of the army and that those who join are viewed as incompetent unemployed youths. Most people with good education view the kids heading for the army the same in every country... You risk your life but your decisions in life pretty much end there untill you get out. At any rate fact that they see army as incompetent camp is just because they value education alot more then most countries. Besides nowadays wars between civilised countries are fought with banks, not infantry. | ||
Craton
United States17250 Posts
Which doesn't mean much when both countries have enough artillery pointed at each other to wipe out every major city in a matter of hours. War erases both countries pretty succinctly. | ||
NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
Personally i've always thought of the US military as our most socialist program, we give people education, place to live, money and healthcare in tern they follow though with the US commitments which basically say the US is the world police and if anyone wants to fight one of our allies they will fight us. Although currently alot of the defense budget is operational costs keeping things fueled up and paying those risking their lives, cutting back on the japan and SK commitment isn't super large as most of the military cost is in our active wars. Also all the ppl on nk vs sk, the US and china has a strong interest in keeping nk as is a little buffer zone. The US waters on the issue is always more murky just becuase more people voice their opinion about matters but the US stance is on continued stalemate with sk on nk. | ||
DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Unfortunately NK has more than 10,000 artillery pieces and rocket launchers in range of Seoul, yeah they'd lose but they'd tear Seoul to pieces. | ||
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6637 Posts
Given that the US not only has bases in SK but also helps supply the SK army and has strong ties with Japan and SK and encouraged them to make a defence pact with each other too, I don't think they'll be leaving any time soon. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:04 exog wrote: Stop being rational and sensible, this is international politics, money, sex, murders and all that jazz. "Benefits", "truth" and "reason" has nothing to do with this. Those concepts are far to advanced for the stone-age thought process of "the strongest is right". If there's no enforcement, then the rational thing to do is to try and control your own sphere of power, before you're disadvantaged against someone else. The economic paradigm still hasn't proven itself against neo-realism. | ||
zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:50 DeepElemBlues wrote: NK would lose a war against SK in about a few weeks because the US and Japan would fall on NK from the sea like a ton of bricks. Unfortunately NK has more than 10,000 artillery pieces and rocket launchers in range of Seoul, yeah they'd lose but they'd tear Seoul to pieces. Japan is within nuclear missiles range of North-Korea and NK hates Japan with a passion that rivals the US. When a war breaks out they will use their artillery to fire at SK and launch their nuclear missiles at Japanese cities. And there is no reliable way to stop those missiles. They are currently estimated to have around 5 nukes. Even if we take into account that their missiles might not be very accurate, is it really that hard to hit a Japanese major city? They are rather large targets where a missile being off by a kilometer doesn't mean that much, it's still going to kill a lot of people. don't think it would be wise for the US to pull out of these countries, China is without doubt investing a lot in upgrading its military, including navy and airforce with the aim of creating a force that can rival that of the US and the intention of projecting their power further afield, pulling out would be an open invitation to China to take over these countries and others at some point. People are mentioning that Japan's army size is limited because of post-WW2 limitations but their defence force has been steadily building itself up over the years and the US is turning a blind eye because of North Korea, China and the Taiwan situation, they need strong allies and their own military assets in the region to maintain peace and order. At this point China's army couldn't hope to stand against the US for any serious ammount of time. Infact no country in the world could hope to fight the current US army. Thanks to Hollywood the idea of the mobile modern army has become imprinted in people's minds as being the standard. The American army is insanely well funded compared to any other army in the world. Even if the Chinese army was to rival the US in terms of funding (currently the US spends something like 20x as much) then the difference in strength would come from experience. The US has experience in several wars whilst China has experience in rolling over Tibet. The US army is more seasoned and more funded. It will be decades before the Chinese army can be considered equall to the US. It's not even just a matter of funding, you still got the problem of what to buy with the money. The US has a massive war machine that is constantly creating new and highly modern weaponry. China doesn't have a similar structure. In terms for a military industrial complex China is like a country that has no roads and the US like a country that has roads, railroads, highways and a fully functional air communication structure. | ||
rickybobby
United States405 Posts
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Tatari
United States1179 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote: What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize Wait, what happened to the JSDF? It's a military force. :I | ||
hookyelyak
Egypt184 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6637 Posts
On June 26 2011 04:47 zalz wrote: Japan is within nuclear missiles range of North-Korea and NK hates Japan with a passion that rivals the US. When a war breaks out they will use their artillery to fire at SK and launch their nuclear missiles at Japanese cities. And there is no reliable way to stop those missiles. They are currently estimated to have around 5 nukes. Even if we take into account that their missiles might not be very accurate, is it really that hard to hit a Japanese major city? They are rather large targets where a missile being off by a kilometer doesn't mean that much, it's still going to kill a lot of people. At this point China's army couldn't hope to stand against the US for any serious ammount of time. Infact no country in the world could hope to fight the current US army. Thanks to Hollywood the idea of the mobile modern army has become imprinted in people's minds as being the standard. The American army is insanely well funded compared to any other army in the world. Even if the Chinese army was to rival the US in terms of funding (currently the US spends something like 20x as much) then the difference in strength would come from experience. The US has experience in several wars whilst China has experience in rolling over Tibet. The US army is more seasoned and more funded. It will be decades before the Chinese army can be considered equall to the US. It's not even just a matter of funding, you still got the problem of what to buy with the money. The US has a massive war machine that is constantly creating new and highly modern weaponry. China doesn't have a similar structure. In terms for a military industrial complex China is like a country that has no roads and the US like a country that has roads, railroads, highways and a fully functional air communication structure. I realize that, there are only 3 countries on earth that are really capable of projecting force all around the globe, the US, the UK and France and only the US can do it on a really substantial scale. This is the reason China is investing huge amounts of money and resources into developing new fighters, aircraft carriers and methods of destroying carriers. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12154991 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13761711 A couple links on it, this isn't just me fear mongering or some shit, it's a genuine concern of US government officials. | ||
MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:30 DeepElemBlues wrote: Ummm, this is why China is upgrading their navy and air force and to a slightly lesser degree their army, there is no arms race. Wrong... And to people who think that Japan would be violating some UN resolution if they were to "re-militarize," totally wrong. Only Japanese law (specifically their constitution) restricts their military. Their constitution says they are not allowed to have any offensive forces whatsoever. That's why their army and navy and air force have "Self-Defense" in the title, that's the only constitutional thing for them to do, they're allowed to have "self-defense forces." Japan has already become more and more right-wing in its foreign policy especially toward North Korea, if the US left Tokyo and Seoul would both be terrified of Pyongyang and would greatly increase their forces as a result. Japan does not like and is very suspicious of NK especially because of the decades of NK kidnapping random Japanese off Japanese beaches to train NK spies on how to act Japanese. Japan can change its constitution whenever it wants. Ummm... wrong. England and France approached Israel and said we're going to attack Egypt you should help us because hurting Egypt will help you in the short and long run. Israel said okay. England and France went to Eisenhower and said you should come too and he said no, and we can't support you in doing it. Don't do it. England and France did it and the US did not support them and forced London and Paris to accept a cease-fire when the USSR threatened to get involved. In England especially what the US did was viewed as the death knell of the British empire and was not very well received by the Brits. Well, since you decided to rip apart peoples statements lets get one thing clear, Ummm, this is why China is upgrading their navy and air force This "navy" you speak of is a joke, and anyone informed knows this. That new carrier they have upgraded from a soviet warship, not even built themselves is touted as a "peice of junk" by the American military and the Pentagon, the thought that this is even strikingly an issue for "arms" discussion is behond me. There is no country carrying a navy as superior as the United States navy, and there will be no arms race in Navy terms, especially from China. There is no arms race, there is the United States, who since its revolution has had over 20 major wars, and many minor conflicts. The nation is bred for war, was made by a war, and will continue to thrive in that regard. So don't pretend that there is a military race of arms, in anyway shape or form, you'll be kidding yourself. That being said, I think the country is failing because of this, and in that regard will either use the military to enforce its survival or there will be some economic global change which will bail them out, because I think with 14 trillion in debt, you pass a limit where it is impossible to surpass the interest, I'm confident that happened a long time ago before they pass 10trillion, because it's just been exponentially declining. Nothing like privatizing banks and getting rid of regulation to really put yourself in debt. | ||
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
its not like countries build and maintain military bases for no reason at all. | ||
Medrea
10003 Posts
Japan lacks an army that is capable of striking beyond its borders, as is decreed in the post war constitution. | ||
DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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Dr_Jones
Norway252 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:45 NotSupporting wrote: For people discussing a potential war between SK and NK I would just like to add that there is a war RIGHT NOW, SK and NK are officially still at war, a peace agreement was never reached only an agreement of ceasefire. Also, people thinking NK has nothing to threaten with anyway - NK has nuclear weapons and Seoul is very close to the border, these two factors are enough to create a huge disaster in case of resumed fighting North Korea has nuclear DEVICES, although there is no credible evidence they possess the means of delivery, or the stability a nuclear weapons attack would require. Stop confusing facts. | ||
Happykola
United Kingdom62 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/military-spending So SK spends 2.8% of GDP while NK spends 15%+ and SK still spends more. And generally in modern warfare, the more you spend the better your military capabilities are. | ||
Skullflower
United States3779 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote: What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize They have an incredibly high-tech and well equipped army but it's only for defensive purposes. And now their main focus has moved from Russia to China. | ||
Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
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Swagalisk
United States7 Posts
For example, lets say North Korea does attack countries in that region. We could launch an offensive from Japan or South Korea the same day. As apposed to having to fight for a foot hold in that region, which could take some time. | ||
DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On June 26 2011 05:41 Klogon wrote: Too many people underestimate the SK military. Look at this graph that shows military spending and notice that North Korea is not even on the list bc their spending is too small compared to the rest. This is what happens when your GDP is so tiny. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/military-spending So SK spends 2.8% of GDP while NK spends 15%+ and SK still spends more. And generally in modern warfare, the more you spend the better your military capabilities are. In modern warfare you still can't discount an army of 1+ million enlisted and 8+ million reserves, even if they are probably armed in cold war era munitions. | ||
MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
On June 26 2011 06:00 Swagalisk wrote: Just as a note. We will never "pull out" of Japan or South Korea. It doesn't matter who the President at the time; our pressence there is needed. Simply us being near by to "dangerous" countries keeps them in check. For example, lets say North Korea does attack countries in that region. We could launch an offensive from Japan or South Korea the same day. As apposed to having to fight for a foot hold in that region, which could take some time. Who dictates the rights of the United States to even involve themselves in the matter, your "foothold" on every ones earth. Not your earth, don't speak as if you are the peacekeepers of the world, whenever I hear of that I think of Robin Williams take on the military, went something like this (paraphrased) "yeah... (heavy drawl) We sure did save the middle east, we went in, john wayne style, blasted 1 big hole after another, we did good didnt we... We, us Americans, are such great people we decided to go back a few decades later and blow the holes we already blew open, into bigger ones. We like to blow, especially in san fransico, but not to stray from the point, we just decided to move the rubble on the left, slightly to the right... Aren't we kind, bet the people in the Middle East alwaysss thank us for are reconstruction efforts and kind support" United States are far from a peacekeeping nation, and the foothold is only to withhold its general interest in the sector, not attempt to "keep peace" if the American government gives less than a shit about its own population, then I hardly think it cares about SK and NK, or Japan for the matter. It's all about keeping chinas growth limited, trade lanes open, not peace in the area (that's just a perk). Don't be naive, you are right on one thing though, "keeps them in check" because thats all it is, just keeping the interests of America in check. | ||
Dr_Jones
Norway252 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:32 kaisen wrote: Politically speaking, what would happen if US pulls troops out of South Korea and Japan? This is an interesting question because right now there is a huge power struggle in East Asia between china and US. At the moment, both South Korea and Japan are paying billions of dollars for US bases every year and both countries want US troops to stay. But what would happen if US completely pulls out of East Asia? China wants US gone from the region, along with their sphere of influence. US is using both South korea and Japan as buffer zone for china. Will china become sole dominant power in Asia and both South Korea and Japan fall under china's influence? Will US ever pull troops out of both SK and Japan? Open Spoiler if you want SOME reflected opinions on this matter based on facts, rather than assumptions/heresay. + Show Spoiler + It is highly unlikely that the US would pull out of South Korea and Japan at this time. That being said, they have gradually decreased the number of standing military personnell in these countries since the end of the Cold War, so their military commitment to the region (being East Asia) has decreased somewhat. However, they still maintain a HUGE influence on this region, centered around the Korean Peninsula, with the major contenders for influence being China, Russia, and of course the US of A. This is evident in the "Six Party Talks", a multilateral security forum aiming to lower tensions on the peninsula specifically, and the region as a whole. Basically, a complete military retreat from the region would no longer legitimise American claims for a continued influence in this political sphere, and both Russia and China would jump to fill the power gap (that does NOT necessairly mean war/military action). Now, let's look at this from an economical perspective. Japan was JUST recently overtaken by China as the second largest economy in the world, and is still FAR behind the US in this regard. Japan and South Korea's economies are larger than the Chinese economy when put together by a fair ammount. As such, China cannot dictate regional policy purely based on economic pressure/extortion, nor would they want to as they are interested in continued trade and economic growth, especially with the US. I also see a lot of people saying stuff like "North Korea could crush South Korea with artillery and nuke Japan, and then kill everyone who invaded because they have such a large army, etc". Ok, so, what is the overall goal of the North Korean regime? To survive. This is their ONLY goal; not the spread of communism, not the fight against capitalism, nor any other ideological struggle. They simply want to carry on and be left alone (except for the continued shipments of food/oil/medicine.) North Korea is fucked if they invade South Korea, the regime would NOT survive such a war, and the region would suffer devastating consequences. Contrary to popular belief, North Korea DOES NOT possess any dependable means of delivery of a nuclear weapon, nor is there any empirical evidence of them actually managing to produce a nuclear weapon. Yes, I am aware a nuclear explosion was recorded a little while back by American Seismological instruments, but this was a relatively small explosion, much smaller than the Nagasaki bomb, and indeed it was downclassed to that of a nuclear device, NOT a bomb. As for means of delivery, North Korea has made several attempts to launch a satellite into orbit, failing miserably every time. Yes, they do possess some missile systems, but no, these are not accurate enough, nor do they have the range to really harm Japan, unless they get lucky (kinda like V1 rockets ruing WW2). In a conventional war, North Korea has a superior lead in both standing army, tanks, guns, ships, etc ON PAPER. Did you know most North Korean vessels are actually mini-submarines or gunboats/patrol boats? Did you know the standing army is largely due to the millions of reservists they have conscripted? And have you even considered the technoligical deficit they would find themselves in when going against the most advanced war machines on the planet? Finally, China would NEVER engange in a war that North Korea had started. They didn't do so in 1950, they wouldn't do so now. They were even instrumental in the division of the country along the 38th parallel Feel free to argue any of these points, I wrote my bachelor on the subject and would love to have some more credible insight/reflected debate on the matter. Oh right.. TL.net forums, better not hope for too too much! ![]() | ||
Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
China is becoming such an economic powerhouse, they won't have to make war in order to grow in power. They will be able to suck nations dry from the inside. I think they realize this. I think Japan will stay as it is for the foreseeable future. But I would be very surprised if North Korea didn't collapse in the next few years. Things are bad there, and the Dictator is getting pretty old. My take on the possibilities there are that if the government did collapse, it would make the most sense for the people of North Korea to either reunite with the South. Or be absorbed by China. But sometimes things like this are a slow process taking decades. | ||
Telebear
United Kingdom107 Posts
On June 26 2011 05:25 Medrea wrote: Current logic is that without US presence in South Korea, North Korea with its 4th largest standing army in the world will rush across the DMZ and capture Seoul, South Korea in no time at all. . please stop spouting this absolute nonsense as has already been established in this thread and for anyone who knows anything about the conflict the size of north koreas army doesnt matter | ||
MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
Lol, I think it might just have been a troll | ||
youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote: I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria. Lol, I think it might just have been a troll maybe the post was 90 years old | ||
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6637 Posts
On June 26 2011 06:25 Telebear wrote: please stop spouting this absolute nonsense as has already been established in this thread and for anyone who knows anything about the conflict the size of north koreas army doesnt matter The main problem is the ridiculous amount of artillery they have targeted at Seoul, lying in wait. That isn't quite so easy to stop. | ||
xarthaz
1704 Posts
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Koreish
United States17 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:57 exog wrote: Interetsting question, people in general forget that the human mind doesnt change in 50 years, and a new big war should never surprize anyone. As NK has a mad dictator-family, its very possible they would "retake whats theirs with the blesing of (insert god here)", or any other stupid reason like the americans do all the time. If this happen its very possible that china would support them for political/economicals reasons without dirtying their hands. You do realize that the only ties between North Korea and China is that they are both communist right? China wants nothing to do with Kim Jeong Il and his family. Everyone in Asia is afraid of that man and what he might do if he declares war. Remember North Korea has been testing and making nuclear weaponry, although it can't reach the US or Europe, the nukes can still take out much of Japan, South Korea, and China before anyone could respond. It is because larger countries like Germany, Russia, and the United States have bases around, and can bring down swift military retaliation that North Korea hasn't tried anything yet. I'm not a big fan of war and with very few exceptions have seen any war to be necessary. I do feel however we need to keep our bases in that area running just to try and keep North Korea in check. | ||
Playguuu
United States926 Posts
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
I imagine that would result in us leaving Germany (seems dumb to even still be there), Japan MIGHT kick the U.S. out (it might be a close vote, I'm not sure what would happen), but South Korea definitely, definitely doesn't want the U.S. gone. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On June 26 2011 06:16 DannyJ wrote: In modern warfare you still can't discount an army of 1+ million enlisted and 8+ million reserves, even if they are probably armed in cold war era munitions. Nobody is discounting anything. NK will pummel much of Seoul's infrastructure within days with artillery. But to say NK's 1million man cold-war era army would sweep through SK's 600,000 man modern army that has complete air-dominance is not accurate. | ||
RevLesMis
United States23 Posts
lol look it up the French Armed Forces is currently the largest army in Europe the 3rd largest army in NATO and only the US and Russia have more nukes then France. SO yeah check your facts before you start being a douche and an ignorant American and start hating on a country you know nothing about. | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote: I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now. true but what if NK attacks? then what. | ||
Kuhva
United Kingdom183 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:04 Telebear wrote: have you ever heard of the suez crisis?? The US allowed the situation you're describing as not happening to happen .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis .... America wasn't involved, in fact there was a distinct lack of US support... is that what your getting at? | ||
Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On June 26 2011 06:51 Klogon wrote: Nobody is discounting anything. NK will pummel much of Seoul's infrastructure within days with artillery. But to say NK's 1million man cold-war era army would sweep through SK's 600,000 man modern army with complete air-dominance is not accurate. But that's the whole problem. Everyone can agree that NK would never win such a war but given their army size there can't be any doubt that the destruction and loss of human life would be on an enormous scale. Winning a war doesn't mean that you can't lose it. | ||
MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
On June 26 2011 07:00 RevLesMis wrote: lol look it up the French Armed Forces is currently the largest army in Europe the 3rd largest army in NATO and only the US and Russia have more nukes then France. SO yeah check your facts before you start being a douche and an ignorant American and start hating on a country you know nothing about. Well... It seems in your title is states you are from the United States, and neither I nor the other member of TL you mentioned pose the same location. He is from Australia and I am from Canada, aren't you an ignorant American and a hipocrite. And last time I checked, the largest army per capita was Switzerland, and I think we all know something about the French attempts at being an army past the Napoleon Era. (WW1, ope fucked that, WW2, didn't even notice there involvement after being dominated so badly) Good thing that I, being opposite of the ignorant hipocritical American, has video proof of the effective French army. Enjoy : D | ||
Telebear
United Kingdom107 Posts
.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis .... America wasn't involved, in fact there was a distinct lack of US support... is that what your getting at? my point is that historically the US has not supported great powers in maintaining trade routes in favour of regional powers, this was in response to a poster claiming that the US actively controlled such routes in order to benefit its own interests, and america was involved in the suez crisis as it ended it showing an even greater support that moved away from the old system of certain powers controlling trade routes | ||
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6637 Posts
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote: I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria. Lol, I think it might just have been a troll For people who actually know what they're talking about it's quite well documented fact...they are the only countries with blue water navies and decent air forces. Additionally no one mentioned super powers, there is only one super power (actually the hyper power), the US, the UK and France are simply the next strongest countries in terms of military power projection capabilities (obviously Russia and China have more men but good luck getting them anywhere). On June 26 2011 07:12 MERLIN. wrote: Well... It seems in your title is states you are from the United States, and neither I nor the other member of TL you mentioned pose the same location. He is from Australia and I am from Canada, aren't you an ignorant American and a hipocrite. And last time I checked, the largest army per capita was Switzerland, and I think we all know something about the French attempts at being an army past the Napoleon Era. (WW1, ope fucked that, WW2, didn't even notice there involvement after being dominated so badly) Good thing that I, being opposite of the ignorant hipocritical American, has video proof of the effective French army. Enjoy : D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QGG6X5w8qs Where did you see anything about largest army per capita? He simply meant largest army by size and he is correct, the French military is regarded as either the 2nd or 3rd best in the world today. And your history is off, France fought well in WW1 and was on the winning side, it sacrificed the most out of the western allies in that war. AND your video is the freaking Canadian army, jesus christ. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Is it just trade relation with the US and German aka the kings of western arms dealing? It is hard to imagine such a dangerous country that is so small? | ||
Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:53 Voltaire wrote: This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII. Why would there not be an arms race? Countries are constantly investing in research into new potential weapons. Maybe at a slower rate than during the coldwar, but they could always invest more if they thought it was necessary. | ||
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6637 Posts
On June 26 2011 07:43 AttackZerg wrote: How is it possible for countries like the U.K and France to have still have such strong militarizes? Is it just trade relation with the US and German aka the kings of western arms dealing? It is hard to imagine such a dangerous country that is so small? Well really it's just the UK and France, Germany and Italy are probably the next best in Europe but they're quite far behind Britain and France in terms of tech/numbers. Germany was limited like Japan after WW2 so that's why it's not so high up on the list, the UK and France though have been 2 of the richest countries in the world since WW2 and the United States' top allies so it's really expected that they have decent militaries. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On June 26 2011 07:50 jello_biafra wrote: Well really it's just the UK and France, Germany and Italy are probably the next best in Europe but they're quite far behind Britain and France in terms of tech/numbers. Germany was limited like Japan after WW2 so that's why it's not so high up on the list, the UK and France though have been 2 of the richest countries in the world since WW2 and the United States' top allies so it's really expected that they have decent militaries. Okay, then it makes sense why their economies are in bad shape like ours =) | ||
Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
You cant make the correlation Huge army => Economy in shambles, Spain has a much smaller army than France and Germany and is in much grander economic trouble, its a really wierd link you thought up there. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On June 26 2011 08:24 Catch]22 wrote: Except France isnt in bad shape, its one of the more healthy economies of the western world along with us nordic countries (protip, the common denominator is high taxes) You cant make the correlation Huge army => Economy in shambles, Spain has a much smaller army than France and Germany and is in much grander economic trouble, its a really wierd link you thought up there. When I checked european debt last week, france and england were both nearly at 100% GPD in debt? I don't want to derail this thread any further, please if you have linkable information please PM me, I am rather interested in informed information! | ||
Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
On June 26 2011 08:30 AttackZerg wrote: When I checked european debt last week, france and england were both nearly at 100% GPD in debt? I don't want to derail this thread any further, please if you have linkable information please PM me, I am rather interested in informed information! Its more complex than just a solid debt figure. I suggest you read this link for more in depth info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_European_sovereign_debt_crisis | ||
NrT.RuSH
Germany214 Posts
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Swagalisk
United States7 Posts
On June 26 2011 06:17 MERLIN. wrote: Who dictates the rights of the United States to even involve themselves in the matter, your "foothold" on every ones earth. Not your earth, don't speak as if you are the peacekeepers of the world, whenever I hear of that I think of Robin Williams take on the military, went something like this (paraphrased) "yeah... (heavy drawl) We sure did save the middle east, we went in, john wayne style, blasted 1 big hole after another, we did good didnt we... We, us Americans, are such great people we decided to go back a few decades later and blow the holes we already blew open, into bigger ones. We like to blow, especially in san fransico, but not to stray from the point, we just decided to move the rubble on the left, slightly to the right... Aren't we kind, bet the people in the Middle East alwaysss thank us for are reconstruction efforts and kind support" United States are far from a peacekeeping nation, and the foothold is only to withhold its general interest in the sector, not attempt to "keep peace" if the American government gives less than a shit about its own population, then I hardly think it cares about SK and NK, or Japan for the matter. It's all about keeping chinas growth limited, trade lanes open, not peace in the area (that's just a perk). Don't be naive, you are right on one thing though, "keeps them in check" because thats all it is, just keeping the interests of America in check. You're an idiot. If you really think our pressence in SK and Japan is about keeping China's growth limited, i reccomend you stop watching so much liberal news casts. User was warned for this post | ||
raviy
Australia207 Posts
The most logical attribute of any person is that of self-preservation. Even if the US pulls their troops out of Asia, that just increases their response time, from a few hours to a few days. The US would still come to the aid of its allies should they need it. NK will not fire nukes at SK without provocation, because they don't want to destroy SK. They want to reunite under their own government. Also, NK knows that a full scale mobilization against SK would lead to their country being invaded by multiple foreign entities. NK cannot give up their military arms, because that would leave them exposed with no bargaining power (See: Libya). NK will just continue posturing, triggering incidents, to increase their perceived threat, to ensure they receive foreign aid in exchange for not attacking anyone. China will not fully mobilize against any country, because that would align the Western powers against them. A lack of US presence in the area will mean that China will be able to use their navy to set up blockades of disputed islands to assert their sovereignty. China will not risk a war with any neighbouring country, in the knowledge that the US will not hesitate to side against it. US military expenditure per capita is currently almost 30x that of China's, and its military expenditure in pure monetary terms amounts to about a third of the world's total military expenditure. Although the Western media likes to report on China's "massive" military spending, China's military spending as a percentage of GDP is at 2.2%, which ranks it between 40th and 50th place in the world. Besides, Japan and SK's military is far ahead of China's due to their military trade agreements with the US. It's hard to imagine China being able to truly threaten any of the developed Asian nations. So... I don't see how the US pulling its troops out of Asia will make much of a difference. | ||
Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:03 Swagalisk wrote: You're an idiot. If you really think our pressence in SK and Japan is about keeping China's growth limited, i reccomend you stop watching so much liberal news casts. It's not directly keeping China in check, but it certainly is indirectly. The US bases in the region and more importantly, quickly establishing a logistics line in the case of any conflict from further bases in the Pacific at the very least allows some countries plan their foreign relations around a possible US response. And don't call others idiots. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
I'm not scared of china or a chinese threat, I've always viewed china as a ying, yang situation and hoped for equality among super powers, but how is it possible to truly trust government reports on military spending, and yet nobody knows accurate costs of the nuclear age of america-russia and how much money is spent on the different covert agencies around the world. I don't think it is possible to judge a military according to world numbers about spending. Why would any country fully disclose what they spend on and especially a country which limits information in and out of the country. | ||
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote: I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now. wtf you talking ? seriously in germany are nearly all us troops gone (bad for german economy cause they was in not that righ regions and bring alot of jobs/money etc so far a BIG lose for germany) out of japan well i dont know perhaps japan lose some money but i think its not that problem but south korea ? realy ? the day they do north korea just destroy south korea man .. their army is like 200 times bigger i dont think they are able to take on japan cause of the ocean and the way bigger japan army then the south korean, also they not attack other countrys without americans in the region, but with south korea they still IN WAR | ||
tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed. Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure. Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past. This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years. Absolutely ridiculous. | ||
hizBALLIN
United States163 Posts
That said, the US pulling out of Korea would definitely destabilize the country, but I really cannot say to what extent. The South Korean army is a capable one, and they acquitted themselves well in Vietnam as our allies. My experiences with KATUSAs in the army was mixed, but they generally seemed to be capable individuals. Surely North Korea would be at least somewhat more bold with their probing antics if the US were to leave, though I feel fairly certain that if there was an invasion, The United States would honor their long time allies' requests for help. A more interesting possibility would be that reunification could be an outcome. Aside from an increase in defense spending in Japan, I don't really see a massive change in the Japanese people's lifestyles (though potentially in politics) being the result of a full US withdraw from Okinawa. Their nation operates as if the base on Okinawa is as as insignificant as it probably is. edit: On June 26 2011 07:42 jello_biafra wrote: For people who actually know what they're talking about it's quite well documented fact...they are the only countries with blue water navies and decent air forces. Additionally no one mentioned super powers, there is only one super power (actually the hyper power), the US, the UK and France are simply the next strongest countries in terms of military power projection capabilities (obviously Russia and China have more men but good luck getting them anywhere). China: You really should not discount the Chinese Navy, which is incredibly capable. They have a vast fleet with a large carrier capability, and very advanced submarine technologies. Their air assets are years behind those of the US, the UK, France, Russia, and India, but to assert that they're not a world military power is foolish. Russia: With access to the Atlantic, and very extensive access to the pacific, the Russian navy is probably the closest rival to that of the United States in the pacific ocean. Despite the problems created by the collapse of the USSR twenty years ago, they've rebounded in terms of spending and proficiency, though not to the levels seen during the Cold War era. India's blue water navy is definitely small, but in trials (Cope India 04-the present) against United States and UK fighter pilots, the Indian pilots either won the scenarios outright (as in Cope India 04, with a 90% win rate over the US) or traded at least evenly with their adversaries, while not using the full radar capabilities of their craft as to hide their precision and acquisition techniques. They fly the newest Sukhoi aircraft and are well trained. On a final note, I'd like to add that after the Falkland war, arm chair tacticians (like myself) ought to be more wary of the fallibility of Super Power-level naval craft as nearly every power I've listed (as well as South Korea) field G4 fighter squadrons. Generation 4 Fighter Jets and the weapons they carry continue to evolve in terms of range and shrinking radar cross-sections while the defense capabilities of the sea-going vessels fielded by the navies of the world have largely stagnated for a half a century. While Generation 5 fighters are superior in most terms of detectability, that is not necessarily as viable a trait as maneuverability in close air combat situations, and many (if not most) G4 fighter craft have outright superior maneuvering capabilities to their G5 counterparts, particularly the SU47, which will be entering production in around five years. It's important not to think of Generation 5 stealth fighter craft as the next stage of fighters, but rather as a parallel philosophy of what fighter craft ought to be. With this in mind, G5 fighter craft will never replace G4 fighters, but rather can operate in additional role as deep strike air cover, since they are capable of evading many detection techniques that their predecessors were not. I have digressed pretty significantly; I mean to say that any nation with carrier technology and up to date G4 aircraft are more than capable of standing up to a superpower's navy with the right pilots at the stick. source:G4 Fighter Craft, discusses Cope India results at the bottom fixed some of my own and MERLIN's spelling mistakes. | ||
Dizmaul
United States831 Posts
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stork4ever
United States1036 Posts
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Stiluz
Norway688 Posts
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Ravencruiser
Canada519 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:33 tyCe wrote: I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them. I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed. Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure. Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past. This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years. Absolutely ridiculous. This man knows something. /wins thread. | ||
Shigure
United States215 Posts
If anyone played that game's singleplayer. | ||
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white_horse
1019 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:33 tyCe wrote: I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them. I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed. Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure. Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past. This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years. Absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe I'm reading this. Your fantasy of China and its history as well as general Korean perception of the US "occupation" is just jaw-dropping. | ||
Razzah
United States35 Posts
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obbob
Canada72 Posts
However, if Japan began to militarize, I think China would politically put a ton of pressure to stop it due to the past history of Japan and China. And my opinion on North Korea is that despite being poor as a country, I think their military is actually not as technologically primitive as some claim. One reason every other aspect of their country is devolvoing is due to that their military is probably equivalent to a country much wealthier than them. | ||
Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:32 kaisen wrote: Politically speaking, what would happen if US pulls troops out of South Korea and Japan? This is an interesting question because right now there is a huge power struggle in East Asia between china and US. At the moment, both South Korea and Japan are paying billions of dollars for US bases every year and both countries want US troops to stay. But what would happen if US completely pulls out of East Asia? China wants US gone from the region, along with their sphere of influence. US is using both South korea and Japan as buffer zone for china. Will china become sole dominant power in Asia and both South Korea and Japan fall under china's influence? Will US ever pull troops out of both SK and Japan? Where/how are they paying for US bases in these countries? I am stationed in Japan and I see the exact opposite. The US is essentially paying Japan to be here. Just on the island of Okinawa we have over 100,000 troops and hire over 20,000 Japanese employee's to work on base. All of these people buy goods off the local economy, not to mention about 30,000 DoD personnel living off base paying at on average about $2,500 for housing... Keep in mind Okinawa only has about 1.1mil people as well. | ||
PerkyPenguin
United States99 Posts
On June 26 2011 07:42 jello_biafra wrote: For people who actually know what they're talking about it's quite well documented fact...they are the only countries with blue water navies and decent air forces. Additionally no one mentioned super powers, there is only one super power (actually the hyper power), the US, the UK and France are simply the next strongest countries in terms of military power projection capabilities (obviously Russia and China have more men but good luck getting them anywhere). Well... It seems in your title is states you are from the United States, and neither I nor the other member of TL you mentioned pose the same location. He is from Australia and I am from Canada, aren't you an ignorant American and a hipocrite. And last time I checked, the largest army per capita was Switzerland, and I think we all know something about the French attempts at being an army past the Napoleon Era. (WW1, ope fucked that, WW2, didn't even notice there involvement after being dominated so badly) Good thing that I, being opposite of the ignorant hipocritical American, has video proof of the effective French army. Enjoy : D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QGG6X5w8qs Where did you see anything about largest army per capita? He simply meant largest army by size and he is correct, the French military is regarded as either the 2nd or 3rd best in the world today. And your history is off, France fought well in WW1 and was on the winning side, it sacrificed the most out of the western allies in that war. AND your video is the freaking Canadian army, jesus christ. I lol'd so hard, I guess the whole "ignorant hipocritical" statement was ironic for him | ||
chasfrank
Gambia59 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote: I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now. I'm glad there are US troops in my country. They have a forward base in central Europe and they could help out should we ever be under attack from France again. Edit: Also to whoever said this nonsense about Tibet belonging to China in any kind of way: You are completely wrong. Any claims China makes on Tibet are unjustified. | ||
aqui
Germany1023 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:59 white_horse wrote: I can't believe I'm reading this. Your fantasy of China and its history as well as general Korean perception of the US "occupation" is just jaw-dropping. Financial aspects aside i don't mind it at all having US bases in Germany. I never heard anyone consider them as occupying forces. Even after WW2 when they truly were, they were often viewed as 'friends' in the general populace. After all they allowed Germany to recover from WWII against their allies will and their intervention in WWII prevented the Soviets from taking over Germany. | ||
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white_horse
1019 Posts
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Syben
United States512 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote: If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific. Japan can not return to its once prior status as part of the conditions of surrender in the Postdam Declaration Article 9. By law their "Defense Force" is only supposed to be that. On SK, I think the US would be putting SK in a very bad spot if they pulled out, its really just out of the question. | ||
SouthWales
Canada27 Posts
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MotorDouglas
Brazil66 Posts
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
On June 26 2011 11:42 SouthWales wrote: As far as the US and china are concerned we are living in a MAD world (mutually assured destruction) with the US owning the far superior arsenal (not that it really matters). So having a buffer region for defense against China is kind of silly. I sincerely hope at the age of wars between super powers is over, ww2 was horrific enough and that was before they invented the pocket calculator, think about what havok we could reap on each other today? I know, math would get done everywhere!!!!! | ||
Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:33 tyCe wrote: I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them. I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed. Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure. Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past. This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years. Absolutely ridiculous. I've lived in Japan for 3 years and all the Japanese I've talked to like having us here. The only exceptions would be the people who knew/were victims of some crime (theft/rape etc.) that an American did... At least as far as the 100ish people I've spoken with go. | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:40 Dizmaul wrote: Have any of you read "The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century" by George Friedman? i read it before and i thought it was kinda biased to USA lol. Ill read it again | ||
seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
I won't lie and say that many of you have valid points but it's really impossible to outline why the United States should be in Japan or South Korea with the simple public knowledge we have. It's obvious that we think it's because of the looming threat that North Korea poses to the region but it has a lot to do with China. The United States keeps its bases there as a foothold on the East Asian region. The US's regional control is through South Korea and Japan and it works for the US to balance against China. The US views East Asia through a realism lens which involves balancing against nations like China by creating a bandwagon with nations like Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. I read one post here trying to debunk the fact that China is trying to consolidate regional power in the East Asia region and I must say that post was simply naivete and "for a lack of a better word" stupid. China exerts its force on Taiwan and Tibet because it believes these states are still part of the old China. China also is in constant debate with India over mountain territories which is just a microcosm of the real struggle for super-population prowess in the region. Then there is the link between China and Iran in which China is still providing Iran with natural resources and possible other resources. This relationship serves China as a means to balancing against the embargoes and sanctions that have been placed on Iran by the United States. China also trades with the Janjuweed of Sudan who has sparked genocide in Darfur and mass-displacement of people in the nation of Sudan and its neighbors. There are many other examples of China's aggressive policy including its role in the 6-party talks with North Korea and its impassivity and indecisiveness. You all fail to realize that the world is a complicated multi-dimensional game of Risk and Civilization combined. China needs to balance the scale with the United States and the United States needs to do the same against China while trying to trade with each other and such. If the United States left the East Asian region, China's dominance would be further advanced and progressed without much hindrance let alone the looming aggressive threat of North Korea. The US's presence in the East Asian region is essential for the United States and would be worse than better for the United States to leave. | ||
trucejl
120 Posts
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote: Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics. Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other. Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side. Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least. In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend. | ||
Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
Either way its not going to make much of a difference, USA doesnt really do much in that region anyways and they will always have Taiwan for a friend. | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:41 trucejl wrote: Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other. Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side. Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least. In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend. China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW | ||
seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
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trucejl
120 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:51 thoradycus wrote: China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied? vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country. Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity. Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia. | ||
ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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neo_sporin
United States516 Posts
While I think a normal gun war would always preempt a nuke fight, lets just be honest that if any governmental power (not terrorist organization) attacked the US or its allies, they would be putting themselves in a lot of danger. One reason that I am a big fan of Ron Paul is because he would (or at least I beleive he would) pull out all troops out of all regions. We got crap here to worry about rather than spending billions on other countries. QUOTE]On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote: On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote: If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific. What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize[/QUOTE] Yea, after WW1 whatever the equivolent of the UN (I forget the name, history not my strong point) really stopped Germany from re-militarizing. If Japan did anything in terms of building an army and not being agressive about it, the UN would write a strongly worded letter and then "sanction" Japan which would essentially mean they tell japan they disapprove. Nothing would happen to Japan... | ||
TALegion
United States1187 Posts
Larger =/= Better It's be like saying that 10 babies are able to beat up a full grown man because there are more of them. Also, the babies are stuck with technology from the 70's. | ||
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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dartoo
India2889 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:08 trucejl wrote: Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied? vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country. Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity. Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia. You make it sound like India was the aggressor, the reason for the war was china demanding territores that are a part of the Indian union when chinese map makers suddenly printed certain parts of India as china. It still continues to demand them, and continues random aggression (even in kashmir). The reason why china gave them up was due to intense international pressure, not the good of heart by china. Relation up to that point were very cordial and the aggression by china was seen to be an act of betraying friendship. | ||
Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote: I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now. It would cost more money to move all of our stuff home. There is no reason our troops shouldn't be stationed where they are. Most of those bases were established decades ago (after WWII). Most importantly they give our army "mobility". We are more mobile than other countries simply because we have more troops stationed in more places, ready to defend. It has nothing to do with Imperialism. I'm pretty sure that Germany, Japan, and SK governments couldn't give a shit about us, but that doesn't mean they are offended to have our troops stationed in their country (helping their economy). | ||
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6637 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:20 neo_sporin wrote: So in one of my history classes way back when we were talking about the Cold War and nuclear deterrence. Essentially we learned the US has enough nuclear warheads to level the ENTIRE WORLD 3 times over, I would assume in the 7 years since that class that number has gone up. While I think a normal gun war would always preempt a nuke fight, lets just be honest that if any governmental power (not terrorist organization) attacked the US or its allies, they would be putting themselves in a lot of danger. One reason that I am a big fan of Ron Paul is because he would (or at least I beleive he would) pull out all troops out of all regions. We got crap here to worry about rather than spending billions on other countries. Yea, after WW1 whatever the equivolent of the UN (I forget the name, history not my strong point) really stopped Germany from re-militarizing. If Japan did anything in terms of building an army and not being agressive about it, the UN would write a strongly worded letter and then "sanction" Japan which would essentially mean they tell japan they disapprove. Nothing would happen to Japan... Actually the nuclear weapon stockpiles of both the US and Russia have been reduced massively since the end of the cold war and they're still making new treaties to reduce it further. And Japan's defence force is quite powerful, they've been steadily enlarging it for decades. America was the only country that was actually monitoring it in the first place and they've let it happen because they want another strong ally in the region. | ||
itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On June 26 2011 02:09 decemberTV wrote: This is why the US will pull out of Germany / Japan and South Korea. ![]() atm the US is 14.000 billion in debt; 1.400 to china alone. They have already begun to cut funds from NASA etc but very soon they will begin to cut funds from the army. There's no other option since the US citizens already have bad healthcare and other social services. There is nowhere to cut funds from anymore. Looking at this just makes me sad. It begins to curb and level out again in the clinton era, but then... "gotcha!" and it starts spiking up again. On topic, if the US pulled out then tension would definitely rise in the region. But if the US continued to back SK verbally, I don't think NK would take any kind of untoward action they wouldn't have taken anyway. | ||
smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On June 26 2011 11:53 MotorDouglas wrote: US don't want to nuke China because then they would have to deal with NK, Iran and Russia Oh, right, that must be why. We're just itchin to nuke em otherwise. Lmao where does this shit come from? | ||
forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
On June 26 2011 14:13 smokeyhoodoo wrote: Oh, right, that must be why. We're just itchin to nuke em otherwise. Lmao where does this shit come from? Not to mention we're now pushing to dismantle all nuclear weaponry by 2030. (Source: Economist 06/18/11) | ||
haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:44 dartoo wrote: You make it sound like India was the aggressor, the reason for the war was china demanding territores that are a part of the Indian union when chinese map makers suddenly printed certain parts of India as china. It still continues to demand them, and continues random aggression (even in kashmir). The reason why china gave them up was due to intense international pressure, not the good of heart by china. Relation up to that point were very cordial and the aggression by china was seen to be an act of betraying friendship. And the fact that the PLA's strategic position was untenable, they've beaten the Indian army but it would be disastrous for them to cross into India proper. They were thousands miles far from Sichuan and when the winter sets it they would be cut off. Implying that China is non-aggressive or non-expansionist based on some pseudo history is naive at best. Have a look at the map of Imperial China from Song to present days and read up on Qian Long's 10 Great military deeds and tell me what is so special about the Chinese empire to say they are non-expansionist? China will flex their muscle when they see fit and rightly so due to its strength and position in the global affairs. | ||
Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
Also I've actually spoken to a lot of Japanese online (mostly in FFXIV or other games) about the U.S. presence there, and opinion is pretty divided. A lot say stuff like "Sometimes we get mad at them, but we don't want them to go away completely" and such. I would of course be in favor of having them vote whether they want the U.S. there or not, but to say that they all want the U.S. gone is just plain false. Again, I think countries should just put it to a vote with their people, and the U.S. should abide by that decision. That would be ideal to me. | ||
Geefking
Australia41 Posts
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MrHoon
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10183 Posts
Yeah guys those 200 1960s Russian MIGS with 15 hours of flight time will totally rape two countries Totally. | ||
Willes
Germany199 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:49 Wrongspeedy wrote: It would cost more money to move all of our stuff home. There is no reason our troops shouldn't be stationed where they are. Most of those bases were established decades ago (after WWII). Most importantly they give our army "mobility". We are more mobile than other countries simply because we have more troops stationed in more places, ready to defend. It has nothing to do with Imperialism. I'm pretty sure that Germany, Japan, and SK governments couldn't give a shit about us, but that doesn't mean they are offended to have our troops stationed in their country (helping their economy). Do you learn this at your schools in the US? It has nothing to do with imperialism? Ok how about that, lets place troops from europe in the USA, to increase mobility if they need to defend your country. Lets say 50k-100k soldiers will be ok for the start. We build bases all around the USA, there is no reason to not do this. They will gain all the benefits you explained in your post, thats a good deal , huh? "Your" eco needs alot of help, so our troups are welcome, soon you dont have money for this hudge military, we support "you" , of course. It has nothing to do with imperialism, we jsut want to help your poor country, with a mobile, eco-helping force, sounds like a good deal for both sides, what do you think? | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On topic, I think North Korea would feel a little more liberated to be aggressive towards Japan and might even invade (but that seems pretty far out). I don't see much of a difference for China. | ||
nihoh
Australia978 Posts
From this, we can establish if the US ever pulled out of South Korea and Japan (unlikely as it is the last two places on Earth the US would pull out of [name another place the US would like to keep troops in, in terms of money spent and need]), China would do everything to keep the status quo going, funnily enough as it seems, either by preventing NK aggression or by forcing NK to slowly open up, either northwards or southwards. Now to the question... if NK decided to make a move southwards or eastwards to SK or Japan, a couple million of either South Koreans or Japanese will die within the space of a couple of hours. Then NK would get owned in the next week (by China or the US), with some form of government put back in place. A couple million of South Koreans and Japanese dead, but that's OK, cos the bomb would be defused. Then everything keeps running as usual with NK having either some sort of Chinese proxy government, or having some clown from the NK elite continue to lead it, on a short international leash, less sanctions, more aid, a little bit more opened up, no more nuclear weapons, and no-one blinks an eye (apart from some South Korean and Japnese people). | ||
RJGooner
United States2076 Posts
On June 26 2011 14:54 Willes wrote: Do you learn this at your schools in the US? It has nothing to do with imperialism? Ok how about that, lets place troops from europe in the USA, to increase mobility if they need to defend your country. Lets say 50k-100k soldiers will be ok for the start. We build bases all around the USA, there is no reason to not do this. They will gain all the benefits you explained in your post, thats a good deal , huh? "Your" eco needs alot of help, so our troups are welcome, soon you dont have money for this hudge military, we support "you" , of course. It has nothing to do with imperialism, we jsut want to help your poor country, with a mobile, eco-helping force, sounds like a good deal for both sides, what do you think? Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord. And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense. | ||
Willes
Germany199 Posts
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Willes
Germany199 Posts
Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord. And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense. - Imperialism, as defined by The Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." - You can google stuff for yourself the next time you think you need to tell us something. ^^ | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 26 2011 15:16 RJGooner wrote: Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord. And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense. Just only, I was reading this article:http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2011/06/libya-europe-and-future-nato | ||
RJGooner
United States2076 Posts
On June 26 2011 15:26 Willes wrote: - Imperialism, as defined by The Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." - You can google stuff for yourself the next time you think you need to tell us something. ^^ Yes and do you think that having a mutual agreement to maintain troops on South Korean soil qualifies as "an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship"? Also, do you believe that the United States is "dominating or subordinating" SK or Japan? Seriously please take a minute to think about things before you post. | ||
Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
On June 26 2011 15:16 RJGooner wrote: Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord. And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense. My biggest fear for the future is that, when China and India overtake the US, my country is going to be lumped in with it as the enemy. The US has less friends than it thinks and while policing the world might make it feel safe, its making other countries in those regions uncomfortable. We constantly hear about this percieved threat from China, and China's no virgin I'm not saying that, but which of the two countries has been more agressive towards the other in the last decade? I would be an advocate of distancing ourselves from America, if we didn't have all of our Nuclear arms tied up under US control. When the world changes the least we could do is not be seen as America's whipping boy. I don't know where we even got the idea that we needed to compete with the big boys in the world. We're on a shitty island, outside of our international relayions, what reason would somebody have for trying to invade us? I'd like my country to take a leaf out of Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland's book and realise that we actually have almost nothing of value to any country. | ||
Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote: What the.... You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize They have the JSDF, and according to Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, the army must only be strong enough to act in self defense. However, there has been controversy over what that entails exactly. And in Iraq, Japan sent troops at the request of the US, which was the first time since WW2 Japan had deployed troops abroad. So basically, yes technically they aren't allowed to have a 'real' army, but in practice there is leeway around that. The only thing that is clear is that Japan definitely cannot possess nuclear arms. Anyways I watched too much Ghost in the Shell. | ||
raviy
Australia207 Posts
On June 26 2011 17:13 Ocedic wrote: They have the JSDF, and according to Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, the army must only be strong enough to act in self defense. However, there has been controversy over what that entails exactly. And in Iraq, Japan sent troops at the request of the US, which was the first time since WW2 Japan had deployed troops abroad. So basically, yes technically they aren't allowed to have a 'real' army, but in practice there is leeway around that. The only thing that is clear is that Japan definitely cannot possess nuclear arms. Anyways I watched too much Ghost in the Shell. This. Also, whenever any country invades another country, it's always for their "defense". The British eradicated the American Indian tribes in the defense of their settlers, the French in Indochina, the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan in the defense of their country, Japan invaded Korea and China in the defense of their economic interests. No country with any political sense will attack another country and declare it as expansionism. They always find a way to call it the defense of their country, so this restriction on Japan may as well be non-existent. | ||
Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11540 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:08 trucejl wrote: Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied? vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country. Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity. Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia. I don't know about china, and whether or not they are aggressive. I just wanted to say that with the same arguments one could claim that Nazi Germany was not aggressive expansionistic until the start of WW2. They were just "reclaiming disputed territory". Nearly no country will invade something and then say "Ha, its our now". They always make something up about how that territory was justily theirs all the time, and the others stole it before, and they are just taking it back. | ||
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On June 26 2011 14:39 haduken wrote: And the fact that the PLA's strategic position was untenable, they've beaten the Indian army but it would be disastrous for them to cross into India proper. They were thousands miles far from Sichuan and when the winter sets it they would be cut off. Implying that China is non-aggressive or non-expansionist based on some pseudo history is naive at best. Have a look at the map of Imperial China from Song to present days and read up on Qian Long's 10 Great military deeds and tell me what is so special about the Chinese empire to say they are non-expansionist? China will flex their muscle when they see fit and rightly so due to its strength and position in the global affairs. Perhaps it isn't really sensible to use ancient history to define a country's foreign policy today. Too many unaccounted for differences in context. By your argument, England is the most expansionist country in history and should be watched carefully lest they resurrect the empire on which the sun never sets. | ||
Ciryandor
United States3735 Posts
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trucejl
120 Posts
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On June 27 2011 02:25 trucejl wrote: Ask yourselves this question. Is China any more aggressive/expansionist than other powerful countries? Especially those with border dispute with its neighbors? There hasn't really been much of an expansionist war in the last few decades. So no country has actually engaged in that kind of behaviour. All the ones i can think of have been a few decades ago and on a very small scale. But i think since they took over Tibet that does put them pretty high on the list simply due to lack of competition. | ||
BlackOmega
United States26 Posts
North Korea is mostly a threat because of their WMD. Their soldiers are poorly trained and fed and most of their tanks date back to the 1950s. South Korea's army is well trained ahd has modern equipment. NK could still inflict tragic casualties in the opening stages of a war with their artillery, but that would not win them a war. | ||
Xpace
United States2209 Posts
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k-lob
United States9 Posts
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MozzarellaL
United States822 Posts
You can bet there's going to be an arms race in the near future. On June 27 2011 11:34 Xpace wrote: Without America, North Korea would plow through South Korea within a week. Every Korean knows this. Is that why there's a pretty large political party in SK that advocates strengthening ties with NK towards reconciliation and removing US military bases from the country? If North Korea tried to invade South Korea they would advance at most a few hundred miles, and then immediately collapse under the weight of their own infrastructure, or rather, lack thereof. China will not assist NK in this day and age. If they would, NK would have already invaded. | ||
mikyaJ
1834 Posts
Actually, SK's Navy and Air Force is not only larger, but far more advanced than NK. NK just has more foot soldiers... which, would mean something say 50 years ago, but no. The thing is, South Korea would probably 'win' in a war with the North, but at what cost? That's why they don't want to fight them, not because "north korea would plow through south korea" as another poster so eloquently put it. | ||
obbob
Canada72 Posts
If they have the ability to neutralize all the nukes, then SK should be able to defend against NK. If not, well, SK could have functional Gundam mech's but Nukes tend to be pretty helpful in winning a war... | ||
Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On June 26 2011 15:20 Willes wrote: Wow you really believe in your propaganda. And what do you believe in? There is mutual agreement between Germany and the USA over the US army bases, so what's your point? | ||
thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 29 2011 16:47 Maenander wrote: And what do you believe in? There is mutual agreement between Germany and the USA over the US army bases, so what's your point? a lot of people keeps forgetting that | ||
MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
On June 27 2011 04:27 zalz wrote: There hasn't really been much of an expansionist war in the last few decades. So no country has actually engaged in that kind of behaviour. All the ones i can think of have been a few decades ago and on a very small scale. But i think since they took over Tibet that does put them pretty high on the list simply due to lack of competition. Israel? Although they're a bit more subtile about it. | ||
evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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