• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:09
CEST 23:09
KST 06:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event18
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris31Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away Aligulac - Europe takes the podium A Eulogy for the Six Pool Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax 2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Esports World Cup 2025 WardiTV Mondays RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
ASL20 - worst advertising ever... BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups Flash On His 2010 "God" Form, Mind Games, vs JD
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group D [ASL20] Ro24 Group F [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [IPSL] CSLAN Review and CSLPRO Reimagined!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The year 2050 European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment"
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Breaking the Meta: Non-Stand…
TrAiDoS
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1513 users

What would happen if US pulls out of SK and Japan?

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Normal
kaisen
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States601 Posts
June 25 2011 16:32 GMT
#1
Politically speaking, what would happen if US pulls troops out of South Korea and Japan? This is an interesting question because right now there is a huge power struggle in East Asia between china and US. At the moment, both South Korea and Japan are paying billions of dollars for US bases every year and both countries want US troops to stay. But what would happen if US completely pulls out of East Asia? China wants US gone from the region, along with their sphere of influence. US is using both South korea and Japan as buffer zone for china. Will china become sole dominant power in Asia and both South Korea and Japan fall under china's influence? Will US ever pull troops out of both SK and Japan?
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 16:36:16
June 25 2011 16:34 GMT
#2
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 16:38:00
June 25 2011 16:36 GMT
#3
On June 26 2011 01:32 kaisen wrote:
Politically speaking, what would happen if US pulls troops out of South Korea and Japan? This is an interesting question because right now there is a huge power struggle in East Asia between china and US. At the moment, both South Korea and Japan are paying billions of dollars for US bases every year and both countries want US troops to stay. But what would happen if US completely pulls out of East Asia? China wants US gone from the region, along with their sphere of influence. US is using both South korea and Japan as buffer zone for china. Will china become sole dominant power in Asia and both South Korea and Japan fall under china's influence? Will US ever pull troops out of both SK and Japan?

the US would pull out if Ron Paul ever comes to power. Nothing would really happen with China/US in the forseeable future tbh. Only thing why they shouldnt pull out of SK/Japan is ebcause of North Korea. Also, the US should just decommission their bases in Europe already... Its unlikely Russia would invade Europe already.
Skee
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada702 Posts
June 25 2011 16:37 GMT
#4
What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean.

Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea.
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
June 25 2011 16:39 GMT
#5
In answer to your last question: no, never. The United States is not exactly using Japan and South Korea as a "buffer", in your terms, but as economic allies. The military presence of the United States in South Korea is mainly a justification to act against North Korea, as the first area to be hit would be the DMZ, and consequentially, the troops stationed there.

IF the United States were to remove its military from East Asia(not just Japan and South Korea), then neither country would be able to defend itself effectively against China and North Korea without the aid of the US or a more powerful country. The entire area would become reliant on China for economic growth.

But really, the US would never leave those countries. They are to valuable to its national interest.
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
Crisco
Profile Joined March 2011
1170 Posts
June 25 2011 16:40 GMT
#6
On June 26 2011 01:37 Skee wrote:
What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean.

Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea.


Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's
lilky
Profile Joined January 2011
United States131 Posts
June 25 2011 16:41 GMT
#7
If the U.S. ever pulls out of South Korea and Japan, the North Koreans will first invade Japan, then most likely South Korea.

Im south korean, and from our perspective, this is what we know to be the truth.
whiteguycash
Profile Joined April 2010
United States476 Posts
June 25 2011 16:42 GMT
#8
If the US pulls out, then they won't have to pay for another. . . "child" for 18 years. For all intents and purposes, pulling out is always a good thing.
kaisen
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States601 Posts
June 25 2011 16:43 GMT
#9
On June 26 2011 01:41 lilky wrote:
If the U.S. ever pulls out of South Korea and Japan, the North Koreans will first invade Japan, then most likely South Korea.

Im south korean, and from our perspective, this is what we know to be the truth.

China makes so much money by trading with both Japan and South Korea. They are not gonna just sit down and let and watch North Korea do whatever it wants to do.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 16:45:54
June 25 2011 16:45 GMT
#10
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 16:47:28
June 25 2011 16:46 GMT
#11
Anyway, East Asia would be a very pivotal area in terms of economy and politics in the near future. i dont think its in the US's interest to leave.
Sovetsky Soyuz
Profile Joined May 2011
Russian Federation905 Posts
June 25 2011 16:51 GMT
#12
US needs Korea and Japan more than they need US. China will get in anytime to totally mess up the geopolitic if they have the chance
Skee
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 16:54:30
June 25 2011 16:53 GMT
#13
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:37 Skee wrote:
What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean.

Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea.


Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's

But they are a first world country with great industrial capacity, as well as the fact the vastly larger population for drafting and even if North Korea did begin drafting, their population is malnourished and wouldn't support their government in the first place.

Regardless, I don't really know much, so I am going to stop preaching theoretical statements and not come back to this thread before I embarrass myself, lol.
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
June 25 2011 16:53 GMT
#14
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.


This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 16:56:31
June 25 2011 16:55 GMT
#15
On June 26 2011 01:39 PraetorialGamer wrote:
In answer to your last question: no, never. The United States is not exactly using Japan and South Korea as a "buffer", in your terms, but as economic allies. The military presence of the United States in South Korea is mainly a justification to act against North Korea, as the first area to be hit would be the DMZ, and consequentially, the troops stationed there.

IF the United States were to remove its military from East Asia(not just Japan and South Korea), then neither country would be able to defend itself effectively against China and North Korea without the aid of the US or a more powerful country. The entire area would become reliant on China for economic growth.

But really, the US would never leave those countries. They are to valuable to its national interest.


I don't see why the US military pulling out of the region would imply the end of US trade with the region.

I also think that the US will eventually leave. Maintaining military bases overseas is expensive and the US economy isn't doing that well. I expect SK and Japan to remain US allies for some time to come. But eventually shifting geopolitics may change that, as well.
Feridan
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark33 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 16:58:35
June 25 2011 16:56 GMT
#16
The world economic system basically needs one superpower to keep the global sea trading lanes open - used to be the British Empire that filled that role, but after the world wars the US discovered that it had to take over. They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals etc, since they are so dependent on them - and so is the rest of the world. We need the US to maintain that role. If they go all isolationist on us, all hell will break loose between up-and-coming powers seeking to take over in their own spheres of influence: russia in the arctic, china, japan and indonesia in the yellow sea and straits of malacca, brazil in the atlantic and panama, and turkey in the middle east (bab-el-mandeb, suez, hormuz).

They'll have to keep bases up in those areas for a very long time yet.
Klipsys
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1533 Posts
June 25 2011 16:56 GMT
#17
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize
Hudson Valley Progamer
exog
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway279 Posts
June 25 2011 16:57 GMT
#18
Interetsting question, people in general forget that the human mind doesnt change in 50 years, and a new big war should never surprize anyone.

As NK has a mad dictator-family, its very possible they would "retake whats theirs with the blesing of (insert god here)", or any other stupid reason like the americans do all the time. If this happen its very possible that china would support them for political/economicals reasons without dirtying their hands.
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1598 Posts
June 25 2011 16:58 GMT
#19
On June 26 2011 01:53 Voltaire wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.


This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII.


What stops NK or China from taking over? It is actually a good thing that we are still in SK they can concentrate their money on things that aren't military related improving the living conditions of the country. Japan on the other hand could probably defend themselves now.
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 25 2011 16:58 GMT
#20
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize

wut they HAVE an army, just that its made so that its for defensive purposes only.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
June 25 2011 16:59 GMT
#21
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote:
The world economic system basically needs one superpower to keep the global sea trading lanes open - used to be the British Empire that filled that role, but after the world wars the US discovered that it had to take over. They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals etc, since they are so dependent on them - and so is the rest of the world. We need the US to maintain that role. If they go all isolationist on us, all hell will break loose between up-and-coming powers seeking to take over in their own spheres of influence: russia in the arctic, china, japan and indonesia in the yellow sea and straits of malacca, brazil in the atlantic and panama, and turkey in the middle east (bab-el-mandeb, suez, hormuz).


If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so?
Dimagus
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1004 Posts
June 25 2011 17:01 GMT
#22
On June 26 2011 01:59 Azarkon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote:
The world economic system basically needs one superpower to keep the global sea trading lanes open - used to be the British Empire that filled that role, but after the world wars the US discovered that it had to take over. They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals etc, since they are so dependent on them - and so is the rest of the world. We need the US to maintain that role. If they go all isolationist on us, all hell will break loose between up-and-coming powers seeking to take over in their own spheres of influence: russia in the arctic, china, japan and indonesia in the yellow sea and straits of malacca, brazil in the atlantic and panama, and turkey in the middle east (bab-el-mandeb, suez, hormuz).


If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so?


Suggesting that all leaders, governments, and countries would think and act rationally is naive to a certain point.

The short answer is "no" they wouldn't do that without trying to swindle some kind of advantage, leverage, or benefit.
Telebear
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom107 Posts
June 25 2011 17:02 GMT
#23
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's


size of an army means nothing especially when compared to the strength of the South Korean air force and naval capacities as well as having the most modern military equipment on the planet, just because North Korea has more land troops means nothing in terms of their military capabilties
Railz
Profile Joined July 2008
United States1449 Posts
June 25 2011 17:03 GMT
#24
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces

Oh they have an army alright. And a mechanized infantry. And a navy. Japan and US are huge tech traders in terms of military.
Did the whole world just get a lot smaller and go whooosh?_-` Number 0ne By.Fantasy Fanatic!
Telebear
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom107 Posts
June 25 2011 17:04 GMT
#25
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote:
They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals .



have you ever heard of the suez crisis?? The US allowed the situation you're describing as not happening to happen
exog
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway279 Posts
June 25 2011 17:04 GMT
#26
On June 26 2011 01:59 Azarkon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote:
The world economic system basically needs one superpower to keep the global sea trading lanes open - used to be the British Empire that filled that role, but after the world wars the US discovered that it had to take over. They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals etc, since they are so dependent on them - and so is the rest of the world. We need the US to maintain that role. If they go all isolationist on us, all hell will break loose between up-and-coming powers seeking to take over in their own spheres of influence: russia in the arctic, china, japan and indonesia in the yellow sea and straits of malacca, brazil in the atlantic and panama, and turkey in the middle east (bab-el-mandeb, suez, hormuz).


If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so?


Stop being rational and sensible, this is international politics, money, sex, murders and all that jazz. "Benefits", "truth" and "reason" has nothing to do with this. Those concepts are far to advanced for the stone-age thought process of "the strongest is right".
Starcraftplaylist
Profile Joined May 2011
194 Posts
June 25 2011 17:08 GMT
#27
US should at least cut their expenses asap in the zones they are not immediately needed, but the pacific presence is probably the most important.
decemvre
Profile Joined May 2010
Romania639 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 17:10:01
June 25 2011 17:09 GMT
#28
This is why the US will pull out of Germany / Japan and South Korea.

[image loading]

atm the US is 14.000 billion in debt; 1.400 to china alone.
They have already begun to cut funds from NASA etc but very soon they will begin to cut funds from the army. There's no other option since the US citizens already have bad healthcare and other social services. There is nowhere to cut funds from anymore.
decemberTV
Feridan
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark33 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 17:11:36
June 25 2011 17:11 GMT
#29
On June 26 2011 01:59 Azarkon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote:
The world economic system basically needs one superpower to keep the global sea trading lanes open - used to be the British Empire that filled that role, but after the world wars the US discovered that it had to take over. They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals etc, since they are so dependent on them - and so is the rest of the world. We need the US to maintain that role. If they go all isolationist on us, all hell will break loose between up-and-coming powers seeking to take over in their own spheres of influence: russia in the arctic, china, japan and indonesia in the yellow sea and straits of malacca, brazil in the atlantic and panama, and turkey in the middle east (bab-el-mandeb, suez, hormuz).


If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so?


A regional player can gain a lot by flexing their muscles and stopping trade. Just think with Turkey - they can't get into the EU, and the Arab states are falling apart. They ride in to the rescue, become the dominant power in the region, giving aid, propping up new governments etc - the other Sunni muslims are grateful, Turkey becomes the new power - and then it's the US and Israel vs every other Sunni country in the region. If they decide they don't want oil or other goods to go through their sea lanes, or only allow ships through of countries that agree to condemn Israel, what is everyone else going to do about it? Same principle in SE asia. Lots of Chinese communities living in countries throughout the area, China might need to 'protect their people', which requires a naval presence - aaaand maybe they start stopping ships of nations that disagree with their mandate - etc etc.
Crisco
Profile Joined March 2011
1170 Posts
June 25 2011 17:18 GMT
#30
On June 26 2011 02:02 Telebear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's


size of an army means nothing especially when compared to the strength of the South Korean air force and naval capacities as well as having the most modern military equipment on the planet, just because North Korea has more land troops means nothing in terms of their military capabilties


actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support.
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 25 2011 17:22 GMT
#31
On June 26 2011 02:18 Crisco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 02:02 Telebear wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's


size of an army means nothing especially when compared to the strength of the South Korean air force and naval capacities as well as having the most modern military equipment on the planet, just because North Korea has more land troops means nothing in terms of their military capabilties


actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support.

well, NK has enough artillery/bombs to flatten Seoul
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
June 25 2011 17:23 GMT
#32
There's no political pressure in the United States to pull out troops since nothing has really happened (yet).

If the US did pull out troops then it would destabilize the region, because many Asian countries see the US presence as a strong deterrent to the expanding powers and ambitions of the Chinese military.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
decemvre
Profile Joined May 2010
Romania639 Posts
June 25 2011 17:23 GMT
#33
On June 26 2011 02:18 Crisco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 02:02 Telebear wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's


size of an army means nothing especially when compared to the strength of the South Korean air force and naval capacities as well as having the most modern military equipment on the planet, just because North Korea has more land troops means nothing in terms of their military capabilties


actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support.


You've got to be kidding. Have you checked South Korea's GDP recently ? Equipment is easy to buy at any time. South Koreans probably want the US there because they just don't want to invest into the equipment themselves.
decemberTV
Spacely
Profile Joined March 2011
United States108 Posts
June 25 2011 17:28 GMT
#34
I don't know what would happen, but I do know that China owns something like $800BIL of USA's debt..
Telebear
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom107 Posts
June 25 2011 17:30 GMT
#35
On June 26 2011 02:18 Crisco wrote:
[

actually i'm pretty sure military power in general (equipment, numbers, resources) is vastly superior for NK if compared to SK without US support.


South Korea has one of the best equipped militaries in the world with the latest technology and equipment numbers aren't an issue size doesnt matter if you're using arms from the 1970's against arms from the 21st century

here is an interesting post on the strength and capabilties of the North Korean army http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
June 25 2011 17:30 GMT
#36
This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII.


Ummm, this is why China is upgrading their navy and air force and to a slightly lesser degree their army, there is no arms race.

What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


Wrong...

And to people who think that Japan would be violating some UN resolution if they were to "re-militarize," totally wrong. Only Japanese law (specifically their constitution) restricts their military. Their constitution says they are not allowed to have any offensive forces whatsoever. That's why their army and navy and air force have "Self-Defense" in the title, that's the only constitutional thing for them to do, they're allowed to have "self-defense forces."

Japan has already become more and more right-wing in its foreign policy especially toward North Korea, if the US left Tokyo and Seoul would both be terrified of Pyongyang and would greatly increase their forces as a result. Japan does not like and is very suspicious of NK especially because of the decades of NK kidnapping random Japanese off Japanese beaches to train NK spies on how to act Japanese.

Japan can change its constitution whenever it wants.

have you ever heard of the suez crisis?? The US allowed the situation you're describing as not happening to happen


Ummm... wrong.

England and France approached Israel and said we're going to attack Egypt you should help us because hurting Egypt will help you in the short and long run. Israel said okay. England and France went to Eisenhower and said you should come too and he said no, and we can't support you in doing it. Don't do it. England and France did it and the US did not support them and forced London and Paris to accept a cease-fire when the USSR threatened to get involved. In England especially what the US did was viewed as the death knell of the British empire and was not very well received by the Brits.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 17:38:23
June 25 2011 17:33 GMT
#37
As it stands, China's military capability is not enough to deter Korea or Japan and both countries will do their absolute best to keep it at that and as for North Korea, people need to wake up, they are not going to invade Japan and in a likely event of war against South they will lose, their only card is causing mass damage on the South Korean population due to the proximity.

China is not going to wage wall on them because it does absolutely nothing for China. Short of a military regime take over and go on a revenge against Japan for the past wars, I just don't see how China would fight Japan. What would they accomplish except killing Japanese for the sake of killing Japanese? They are no oil or resource in Japan or Korea.

Japanese navy alone is enough to stop any Chinese aggression. Land army and tanks don't mean shit when you can't land them.

The game has changed. No sane country is going to attack another for land anymore. It is all about the resources.

Now, about the oil under the sea, that might be something and is a good reason for some build up and posturing but again, unless Japan/Korea totally fuck up their intelligence and upgrades they will still be ahead.

If US pulls out, then in a few decades we will just see both countries arm themselves to appease their voters and in a few decades they will become closely with China due to economic reasons.

I don't think a lot of people understand the amount of investments and money that Japan is making from China. They have a lot at stake just like the west so a war is very unlikely.
Rillanon.au
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
June 25 2011 17:46 GMT
#38
On June 26 2011 01:58 NoobSkills wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:53 Voltaire wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.


This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII.


What stops NK or China from taking over? It is actually a good thing that we are still in SK they can concentrate their money on things that aren't military related improving the living conditions of the country. Japan on the other hand could probably defend themselves now.


SK can defend itself from NK. You are completely naive if you think China would invade.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
ixi.genocide
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States981 Posts
June 25 2011 17:53 GMT
#39
Well, Japan doesn't have a strong standing military.... The U.S army is effectively Japans standing army. SK is still in war with NK so they have a required draft, if they didn't, U.S would be their standing army as well.

In general, the US and China are fairly strong allies and have a good history. The 700b that US spends on military protects a lot of countries. The range of the US military is quite extensive and is one of hte reasons why we have general stability in the world. W/out a standing superpower (china would theoretically take its place) the geography of eastern Europe, middle east, Africa, central and south America would probably change constantly.
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
June 25 2011 17:57 GMT
#40
For all its meddling in foreign affairs, at least the US does some good. Oddly, China appears to be gaining a lot of good-will and influence on the grounds that they aren't meddlers (except in how they're screwing around with everyone else's economies in a clandestine fashion, but hey...). It's a great irony of being in power. The one in power is expected to simultaneously solve everyone's problems and get out of everyone's way. Meanwhile, the one in second place is preparing to strike while he's distracted.
Popss
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden176 Posts
June 25 2011 17:59 GMT
#41
I think its more likely that U.S. will be forced to leave rather than them making that decision themselves.

Those bases was never really popular to begin with for obvious reasons.

thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:02:14
June 25 2011 18:01 GMT
#42
On June 26 2011 02:59 Popss wrote:
I think its more likely that U.S. will be forced to leave rather than them making that decision themselves.

Those bases was never really popular to begin with for obvious reasons.


never popular? among who? South Korea, Japan and USA enjoy really good relations in military and economic terms
Popss
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden176 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:04:43
June 25 2011 18:03 GMT
#43
On June 26 2011 03:01 thoradycus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 02:59 Popss wrote:
I think its more likely that U.S. will be forced to leave rather than them making that decision themselves.

Those bases was never really popular to begin with for obvious reasons.


never popular? among who? South Korea, Japan and USA enjoy really good relations in military and economic terms


General population.

EDIT: Hmm I did some research and I'm wrong on this one.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
June 25 2011 18:11 GMT
#44
If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days.

The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 25 2011 18:18 GMT
#45
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote:
If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days.

The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion.

any chance u hav source? im interested in this kind of stuff lol
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
June 25 2011 18:20 GMT
#46
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote:
If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days.

The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion.

not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so.

for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya.
...from the land of imba
SorYu
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands75 Posts
June 25 2011 18:20 GMT
#47
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. .

can they take their nukes with them too we store for them..stupid junk, we dont want this in europe (Netherlands)
MC - Ret (no terran love right now sry)
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
June 25 2011 18:22 GMT
#48
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote:
If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days.

The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion.


The aftermath of that war would be just miserable. Seoul, being so close to the border and the target of a metric fuckton of long-range artillery, would have been bombarded to rubble (or even nuked) and there would be millions of brainwashed, unemployable (due to lack of industrial skills) North Koreans looking for food, work and shelter.
aqui
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany1023 Posts
June 25 2011 18:22 GMT
#49
Stupid question but don't the USA save money having forces stationed in countries like Japan,Sk or Germany, since those countries pay for the bases not the US and having the forces at home they'd have to pay more to sustain them?
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
June 25 2011 18:23 GMT
#50
On June 26 2011 03:20 SorYu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. .

can they take their nukes with them too we store for them..stupid junk, we dont want this in europe (Netherlands)


Yeah, that'll just leave UK and France.. and the other countries that didn't disclose their development.


Politically I can only see China asserting increased influence over SK and Japan if the United States were to suddenly leave. I don't know if that's for better or worse but I'm certain that would be the result.


But we HAVE to cut funding to the military. The national debt is disgusting.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 25 2011 18:24 GMT
#51
On June 26 2011 03:22 Bibdy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote:
If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days.

The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion.


The aftermath of that war would be just miserable. Seoul, being so close to the border and the target of a metric fuckton of long-range artillery, would have been bombarded to rubble (or even nuked) and there would be millions of brainwashed, unemployable (due to lack of industrial skills) North Koreans looking for food, work and shelter.

yea, their economy would be hit very hard.
Redlol
Profile Joined June 2010
United States181 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:28:34
June 25 2011 18:26 GMT
#52
On June 26 2011 01:53 Voltaire wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.


This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII.


Look at the German military/submarine buildup before World War II, the world relaxed the World War I restrictions because they were outdated(bit of an oversimplification but the point stands). Similarly if the Japanese were to start building their military they would likely be allowed to as long as it was within reason.

On June 26 2011 03:20 dybydx wrote:

not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so.

for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya.


You never, ever have the right to genocide which is what really happened in Libya.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
June 25 2011 18:28 GMT
#53
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote:
If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days.

The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion.


Air superiorty doesn't stop rockets and artillery shells from hitting Seoul. SK will never be the agressor so any situation begins with the initial strike coming from NK.

SK simply will not survive the initial atack. Their entire country is within instant range of NK weaponry. The only tactic that SK has is stalling for international (USA) help wich they well get. The question is how many million will die before they get their help.

not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so.

for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya.


Millions of people will die and an entire nation will be thrown into poverty. Their entire industry destroyed within days.

But ofcourse "they" should have at it. The frightenting mind of a colectivist thinker who has passed the threshold and consider the intrest of nations to supercede the intrests of people living in said nations.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
June 25 2011 18:30 GMT
#54
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:37 Skee wrote:
What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean.

Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea.


Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's


Yes, because NK spends something like 16% GDP on defense... That's appalling. Most countries sit around 1-4%. Priorities are disgusting within that government system...
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:33:12
June 25 2011 18:32 GMT
#55
also what would happen if the Moon falls off the sky? Good question, though i dont see a point to discuss it till there are signs that show it could happen. China not wanting US there is not something new.

When there are some events which would suggest that this is an issue to speak of, then i'm very interested in discussing it, since i study international relations at my university.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
June 25 2011 18:32 GMT
#56
On June 26 2011 03:26 Redlol wrote:
Look at the German military/submarine buildup before World War II, the world relaxed the World War I restrictions because they were outdated(bit of an oversimplification but the point stands). Similarly if the Japanese were to start building their military they would likely be allowed to as long as it was within reason.

Japan spends nearly as much on defense as Russia. although i heard that Japanese themselves have very low opinion of the army and that those who join are viewed as incompetent unemployed youths.
...from the land of imba
NotSupporting
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1998 Posts
June 25 2011 18:35 GMT
#57
Was a long time since I last saw a thread on TL with this much pure speculation, but I guess the question really calls for it. North Korea right now is using it's military to gain respect and influence from the rest of the world, with US army gone from South Korea the situation would get really tense and NK would get a much larger diplomatic edge on SK.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
June 25 2011 18:36 GMT
#58
On June 26 2011 03:20 dybydx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 03:11 Sufficiency wrote:
If I recall correctly, some "experts" said that if NK and SK fights again, NK will lose in about 3-4 days.

The problem is that NK has no airforce whatsoever, nor does it have the money to buy fuel for pilot training. If there is a war, SK will almost instantly have air superiority. Regardless how large NK's land army is, once its supply routes are cut off, it's very hard to maintain the invasion.

not that i support a war, but if NK and SK wants to duke it out. they should have the freedom and right to do so.

for that same reason that we should not be involved in Libya.


Excuse me? That's appalling. Did you somehow miss out on world history and forget about the holocaust, which spawned the UN's drive to "never again" allow for such slaughter? The UN's primary security purpose is to "prevent and protect". This issue emerged again in Rwanda in the 90s, whereby an even greater promise was made after the fact to "never again permit this genocide".

You might think it's okay to let systematic slaughter of thousands - millions - to occur, but fortunately the UN and most of the world do not. NK deciding to steamroll Seoul in a barrage of missiles would not be an act of war. It would be an act of genocide - in Libya, Qaddafi's imminent actions in Benghazi would have been a genocide of over 700,000 - again, not an act of war.

Genocide, mass slaughter, and other humanitarian crimes are not to be ignored just because "people should have the right to duke it out" - that's incredibly naive. People should not have the right to "duke it out".
Cyba
Profile Joined June 2010
Romania221 Posts
June 25 2011 18:39 GMT
#59
On June 26 2011 03:32 dybydx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 03:26 Redlol wrote:
Look at the German military/submarine buildup before World War II, the world relaxed the World War I restrictions because they were outdated(bit of an oversimplification but the point stands). Similarly if the Japanese were to start building their military they would likely be allowed to as long as it was within reason.

Japan spends nearly as much on defense as Russia. although i heard that Japanese themselves have very low opinion of the army and that those who join are viewed as incompetent unemployed youths.


Most people with good education view the kids heading for the army the same in every country... You risk your life but your decisions in life pretty much end there untill you get out. At any rate fact that they see army as incompetent camp is just because they value education alot more then most countries.

Besides nowadays wars between civilised countries are fought with banks, not infantry.
I'm not evil, I'm just good lookin
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:43:42
June 25 2011 18:42 GMT
#60
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:37 Skee wrote:
What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean.

Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea.


Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's

Which doesn't mean much when both countries have enough artillery pointed at each other to wipe out every major city in a matter of hours.

War erases both countries pretty succinctly.
twitch.tv/cratonz
NotSupporting
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1998 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:46:30
June 25 2011 18:45 GMT
#61
For people discussing a potential war between SK and NK I would just like to add that there is a war RIGHT NOW, SK and NK are officially still at war, a peace agreement was never reached only an agreement of ceasefire. Also, people thinking NK has nothing to threaten with anyway - NK has nuclear weapons and Seoul is very close to the border, these two factors are enough to create a huge disaster in case of resumed fighting
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:52:32
June 25 2011 18:49 GMT
#62
The US Asian commitments currently are mostly for show the US military in it's current form could not effectively defend Taiwan if china ever decided to invade the commitments between japan and sk are more easily kept just because we wouldn't have to deal with china in which we would not be able to stop an invasion long enough till the pacific fleet could make it's way there along with the repositioning of the Atlantic fleet. In reality the US has been for a long time a 2 ocean navy it's likely in the next 50 years that it will be an indian ocean and pacific navy cutting down far the Atlantic fleet.

Personally i've always thought of the US military as our most socialist program, we give people education, place to live, money and healthcare in tern they follow though with the US commitments which basically say the US is the world police and if anyone wants to fight one of our allies they will fight us. Although currently alot of the defense budget is operational costs keeping things fueled up and paying those risking their lives, cutting back on the japan and SK commitment isn't super large as most of the military cost is in our active wars.

Also all the ppl on nk vs sk, the US and china has a strong interest in keeping nk as is a little buffer zone. The US waters on the issue is always more murky just becuase more people voice their opinion about matters but the US stance is on continued stalemate with sk on nk.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
June 25 2011 18:50 GMT
#63
NK would lose a war against SK in about a few weeks because the US and Japan would fall on NK from the sea like a ton of bricks.

Unfortunately NK has more than 10,000 artillery pieces and rocket launchers in range of Seoul, yeah they'd lose but they'd tear Seoul to pieces.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 18:52:49
June 25 2011 18:52 GMT
#64
I don't think it would be wise for the US to pull out of these countries, China is without doubt investing a lot in upgrading its military, including navy and airforce with the aim of creating a force that can rival that of the US and the intention of projecting their power further afield, pulling out would be an open invitation to China to take over these countries and others at some point. People are mentioning that Japan's army size is limited because of post-WW2 limitations but their defence force has been steadily building itself up over the years and the US is turning a blind eye because of North Korea, China and the Taiwan situation, they need strong allies and their own military assets in the region to maintain peace and order.

Given that the US not only has bases in SK but also helps supply the SK army and has strong ties with Japan and SK and encouraged them to make a defence pact with each other too, I don't think they'll be leaving any time soon.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
June 25 2011 18:52 GMT
#65
On June 26 2011 02:04 exog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:59 Azarkon wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote:
The world economic system basically needs one superpower to keep the global sea trading lanes open - used to be the British Empire that filled that role, but after the world wars the US discovered that it had to take over. They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals etc, since they are so dependent on them - and so is the rest of the world. We need the US to maintain that role. If they go all isolationist on us, all hell will break loose between up-and-coming powers seeking to take over in their own spheres of influence: russia in the arctic, china, japan and indonesia in the yellow sea and straits of malacca, brazil in the atlantic and panama, and turkey in the middle east (bab-el-mandeb, suez, hormuz).


If keeping the global sea lanes open is beneficial to the world economy, wouldn't that suggest they'd be kept open with or without a superpower police, since it'd be in the interests of each country to do so?


Stop being rational and sensible, this is international politics, money, sex, murders and all that jazz. "Benefits", "truth" and "reason" has nothing to do with this. Those concepts are far to advanced for the stone-age thought process of "the strongest is right".

If there's no enforcement, then the rational thing to do is to try and control your own sphere of power, before you're disadvantaged against someone else. The economic paradigm still hasn't proven itself against neo-realism.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 19:53:32
June 25 2011 19:47 GMT
#66
On June 26 2011 03:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:
NK would lose a war against SK in about a few weeks because the US and Japan would fall on NK from the sea like a ton of bricks.

Unfortunately NK has more than 10,000 artillery pieces and rocket launchers in range of Seoul, yeah they'd lose but they'd tear Seoul to pieces.


Japan is within nuclear missiles range of North-Korea and NK hates Japan with a passion that rivals the US.

When a war breaks out they will use their artillery to fire at SK and launch their nuclear missiles at Japanese cities. And there is no reliable way to stop those missiles.


They are currently estimated to have around 5 nukes. Even if we take into account that their missiles might not be very accurate, is it really that hard to hit a Japanese major city? They are rather large targets where a missile being off by a kilometer doesn't mean that much, it's still going to kill a lot of people.

don't think it would be wise for the US to pull out of these countries, China is without doubt investing a lot in upgrading its military, including navy and airforce with the aim of creating a force that can rival that of the US and the intention of projecting their power further afield, pulling out would be an open invitation to China to take over these countries and others at some point. People are mentioning that Japan's army size is limited because of post-WW2 limitations but their defence force has been steadily building itself up over the years and the US is turning a blind eye because of North Korea, China and the Taiwan situation, they need strong allies and their own military assets in the region to maintain peace and order.


At this point China's army couldn't hope to stand against the US for any serious ammount of time. Infact no country in the world could hope to fight the current US army.

Thanks to Hollywood the idea of the mobile modern army has become imprinted in people's minds as being the standard. The American army is insanely well funded compared to any other army in the world.


Even if the Chinese army was to rival the US in terms of funding (currently the US spends something like 20x as much) then the difference in strength would come from experience. The US has experience in several wars whilst China has experience in rolling over Tibet.

The US army is more seasoned and more funded. It will be decades before the Chinese army can be considered equall to the US.


It's not even just a matter of funding, you still got the problem of what to buy with the money. The US has a massive war machine that is constantly creating new and highly modern weaponry. China doesn't have a similar structure.

In terms for a military industrial complex China is like a country that has no roads and the US like a country that has roads, railroads, highways and a fully functional air communication structure.
rickybobby
Profile Joined October 2010
United States405 Posts
June 25 2011 19:54 GMT
#67
china is pumping so much money into its military if the US pulled out china might be tempted to flex its muscles and try to assert moar control of the region.
Tatari
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 20:02:43
June 25 2011 20:02 GMT
#68
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


Wait, what happened to the JSDF? It's a military force. :I
A fed jungler is no longer a jungler, but a terrorist.
hookyelyak
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Egypt184 Posts
June 25 2011 20:02 GMT
#69
wont happen
life.parting.mkp.hero.rain.
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 20:27:43
June 25 2011 20:19 GMT
#70
On June 26 2011 04:47 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 03:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:
NK would lose a war against SK in about a few weeks because the US and Japan would fall on NK from the sea like a ton of bricks.

Unfortunately NK has more than 10,000 artillery pieces and rocket launchers in range of Seoul, yeah they'd lose but they'd tear Seoul to pieces.


Japan is within nuclear missiles range of North-Korea and NK hates Japan with a passion that rivals the US.

When a war breaks out they will use their artillery to fire at SK and launch their nuclear missiles at Japanese cities. And there is no reliable way to stop those missiles.


They are currently estimated to have around 5 nukes. Even if we take into account that their missiles might not be very accurate, is it really that hard to hit a Japanese major city? They are rather large targets where a missile being off by a kilometer doesn't mean that much, it's still going to kill a lot of people.

Show nested quote +
don't think it would be wise for the US to pull out of these countries, China is without doubt investing a lot in upgrading its military, including navy and airforce with the aim of creating a force that can rival that of the US and the intention of projecting their power further afield, pulling out would be an open invitation to China to take over these countries and others at some point. People are mentioning that Japan's army size is limited because of post-WW2 limitations but their defence force has been steadily building itself up over the years and the US is turning a blind eye because of North Korea, China and the Taiwan situation, they need strong allies and their own military assets in the region to maintain peace and order.


At this point China's army couldn't hope to stand against the US for any serious ammount of time. Infact no country in the world could hope to fight the current US army.

Thanks to Hollywood the idea of the mobile modern army has become imprinted in people's minds as being the standard. The American army is insanely well funded compared to any other army in the world.


Even if the Chinese army was to rival the US in terms of funding (currently the US spends something like 20x as much) then the difference in strength would come from experience. The US has experience in several wars whilst China has experience in rolling over Tibet.

The US army is more seasoned and more funded. It will be decades before the Chinese army can be considered equall to the US.


It's not even just a matter of funding, you still got the problem of what to buy with the money. The US has a massive war machine that is constantly creating new and highly modern weaponry. China doesn't have a similar structure.

In terms for a military industrial complex China is like a country that has no roads and the US like a country that has roads, railroads, highways and a fully functional air communication structure.

I realize that, there are only 3 countries on earth that are really capable of projecting force all around the globe, the US, the UK and France and only the US can do it on a really substantial scale.

This is the reason China is investing huge amounts of money and resources into developing new fighters, aircraft carriers and methods of destroying carriers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12154991
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13761711

A couple links on it, this isn't just me fear mongering or some shit, it's a genuine concern of US government officials.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
June 25 2011 20:22 GMT
#71
On June 26 2011 02:30 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Show nested quote +
This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII.


Ummm, this is why China is upgrading their navy and air force and to a slightly lesser degree their army, there is no arms race.

Show nested quote +
What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


Wrong...

And to people who think that Japan would be violating some UN resolution if they were to "re-militarize," totally wrong. Only Japanese law (specifically their constitution) restricts their military. Their constitution says they are not allowed to have any offensive forces whatsoever. That's why their army and navy and air force have "Self-Defense" in the title, that's the only constitutional thing for them to do, they're allowed to have "self-defense forces."

Japan has already become more and more right-wing in its foreign policy especially toward North Korea, if the US left Tokyo and Seoul would both be terrified of Pyongyang and would greatly increase their forces as a result. Japan does not like and is very suspicious of NK especially because of the decades of NK kidnapping random Japanese off Japanese beaches to train NK spies on how to act Japanese.

Japan can change its constitution whenever it wants.

Show nested quote +
have you ever heard of the suez crisis?? The US allowed the situation you're describing as not happening to happen


Ummm... wrong.

England and France approached Israel and said we're going to attack Egypt you should help us because hurting Egypt will help you in the short and long run. Israel said okay. England and France went to Eisenhower and said you should come too and he said no, and we can't support you in doing it. Don't do it. England and France did it and the US did not support them and forced London and Paris to accept a cease-fire when the USSR threatened to get involved. In England especially what the US did was viewed as the death knell of the British empire and was not very well received by the Brits.


Well, since you decided to rip apart peoples statements lets get one thing clear,
Ummm, this is why China is upgrading their navy and air force

This "navy" you speak of is a joke, and anyone informed knows this. That new carrier they have upgraded from a soviet warship, not even built themselves is touted as a "peice of junk" by the American military and the Pentagon, the thought that this is even strikingly an issue for "arms" discussion is behond me.

There is no country carrying a navy as superior as the United States navy, and there will be no arms race in Navy terms, especially from China. There is no arms race, there is the United States, who since its revolution has had over 20 major wars, and many minor conflicts. The nation is bred for war, was made by a war, and will continue to thrive in that regard. So don't pretend that there is a military race of arms, in anyway shape or form, you'll be kidding yourself. That being said, I think the country is failing because of this, and in that regard will either use the military to enforce its survival or there will be some economic global change which will bail them out, because I think with 14 trillion in debt, you pass a limit where it is impossible to surpass the interest, I'm confident that happened a long time ago before they pass 10trillion, because it's just been exponentially declining.

Nothing like privatizing banks and getting rid of regulation to really put yourself in debt.
"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
June 25 2011 20:24 GMT
#72
are those bases present there so that if they are attacked then the US can claim self defence and help against the invaders if such and such happens?

its not like countries build and maintain military bases for no reason at all.
"Mudkip"
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
June 25 2011 20:25 GMT
#73
Current logic is that without US presence in South Korea, North Korea with its 4th largest standing army in the world will rush across the DMZ and capture Seoul, South Korea in no time at all. Which would compromise US and South Korea's interests for obvious reasons.

Japan lacks an army that is capable of striking beyond its borders, as is decreed in the post war constitution.
twitch.tv/medrea
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
June 25 2011 20:31 GMT
#74
Bases in SK and Japan certainly are going nowhere, for obvious reasons. Maybe in a perfect, sensible world they wouldn't be there, but in the real world you put a military presence where military and economic threats exist.
Dr_Jones
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway252 Posts
June 25 2011 20:33 GMT
#75
On June 26 2011 03:45 NotSupporting wrote:
For people discussing a potential war between SK and NK I would just like to add that there is a war RIGHT NOW, SK and NK are officially still at war, a peace agreement was never reached only an agreement of ceasefire. Also, people thinking NK has nothing to threaten with anyway - NK has nuclear weapons and Seoul is very close to the border, these two factors are enough to create a huge disaster in case of resumed fighting


North Korea has nuclear DEVICES, although there is no credible evidence they possess the means of delivery, or the stability a nuclear weapons attack would require. Stop confusing facts.
wubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwub I love me some dubstep wubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwub
Happykola
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom62 Posts
June 25 2011 20:37 GMT
#76
i'm not sure if it's accurate that japan wants us troops to stay, afaik the most recent japanese prime minister ran heavily on getting the americans off okinawa.
Ars long, Vita brevis, Occasio praeceps, Experimentum periculosum, Iudicium difficile
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 20:44:05
June 25 2011 20:41 GMT
#77
Too many people underestimate the SK military. Look at this graph that shows military spending and notice that North Korea is not even on the list bc their spending is too small compared to the rest. This is what happens when your GDP is so tiny.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/military-spending

So SK spends 2.8% of GDP while NK spends 15%+ and SK still spends more. And generally in modern warfare, the more you spend the better your military capabilities are.
Skullflower
Profile Joined July 2010
United States3779 Posts
June 25 2011 20:51 GMT
#78
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


They have an incredibly high-tech and well equipped army but it's only for defensive purposes. And now their main focus has moved from Russia to China.
The ruminations are mine, let the world be yours.
Gryffes
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom763 Posts
June 25 2011 20:59 GMT
#79
Absolutely nothing, except for saving a lot of money.
www.youtube.com/gryffes - Random Gaming Videos.
Swagalisk
Profile Joined April 2011
United States7 Posts
June 25 2011 21:00 GMT
#80
Just as a note. We will never "pull out" of Japan or South Korea. It doesn't matter who the President at the time; our pressence there is needed. Simply us being near by to "dangerous" countries keeps them in check.

For example, lets say North Korea does attack countries in that region. We could launch an offensive from Japan or South Korea the same day. As apposed to having to fight for a foot hold in that region, which could take some time.
"The worst thing I can be is the same as everybody else. I hate that." Arnold Schwarzenegger
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
June 25 2011 21:16 GMT
#81
On June 26 2011 05:41 Klogon wrote:
Too many people underestimate the SK military. Look at this graph that shows military spending and notice that North Korea is not even on the list bc their spending is too small compared to the rest. This is what happens when your GDP is so tiny.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/military-spending

So SK spends 2.8% of GDP while NK spends 15%+ and SK still spends more. And generally in modern warfare, the more you spend the better your military capabilities are.


In modern warfare you still can't discount an army of 1+ million enlisted and 8+ million reserves, even if they are probably armed in cold war era munitions.
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
June 25 2011 21:17 GMT
#82
On June 26 2011 06:00 Swagalisk wrote:
Just as a note. We will never "pull out" of Japan or South Korea. It doesn't matter who the President at the time; our pressence there is needed. Simply us being near by to "dangerous" countries keeps them in check.

For example, lets say North Korea does attack countries in that region. We could launch an offensive from Japan or South Korea the same day. As apposed to having to fight for a foot hold in that region, which could take some time.


Who dictates the rights of the United States to even involve themselves in the matter, your "foothold" on every ones earth. Not your earth, don't speak as if you are the peacekeepers of the world, whenever I hear of that I think of Robin Williams take on the military, went something like this (paraphrased)

"yeah... (heavy drawl) We sure did save the middle east, we went in, john wayne style, blasted 1 big hole after another, we did good didnt we... We, us Americans, are such great people we decided to go back a few decades later and blow the holes we already blew open, into bigger ones. We like to blow, especially in san fransico, but not to stray from the point, we just decided to move the rubble on the left, slightly to the right... Aren't we kind, bet the people in the Middle East alwaysss thank us for are reconstruction efforts and kind support"

United States are far from a peacekeeping nation, and the foothold is only to withhold its general interest in the sector, not attempt to "keep peace" if the American government gives less than a shit about its own population, then I hardly think it cares about SK and NK, or Japan for the matter. It's all about keeping chinas growth limited, trade lanes open, not peace in the area (that's just a perk). Don't be naive, you are right on one thing though, "keeps them in check" because thats all it is, just keeping the interests of America in check.
"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
Dr_Jones
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway252 Posts
June 25 2011 21:18 GMT
#83
On June 26 2011 01:32 kaisen wrote:
Politically speaking, what would happen if US pulls troops out of South Korea and Japan? This is an interesting question because right now there is a huge power struggle in East Asia between china and US. At the moment, both South Korea and Japan are paying billions of dollars for US bases every year and both countries want US troops to stay. But what would happen if US completely pulls out of East Asia? China wants US gone from the region, along with their sphere of influence. US is using both South korea and Japan as buffer zone for china. Will china become sole dominant power in Asia and both South Korea and Japan fall under china's influence? Will US ever pull troops out of both SK and Japan?


Open Spoiler if you want SOME reflected opinions on this matter based on facts, rather than assumptions/heresay.

+ Show Spoiler +
It is highly unlikely that the US would pull out of South Korea and Japan at this time. That being said, they have gradually decreased the number of standing military personnell in these countries since the end of the Cold War, so their military commitment to the region (being East Asia) has decreased somewhat.

However, they still maintain a HUGE influence on this region, centered around the Korean Peninsula, with the major contenders for influence being China, Russia, and of course the US of A. This is evident in the "Six Party Talks", a multilateral security forum aiming to lower tensions on the peninsula specifically, and the region as a whole. Basically, a complete military retreat from the region would no longer legitimise American claims for a continued influence in this political sphere, and both Russia and China would jump to fill the power gap (that does NOT necessairly mean war/military action).

Now, let's look at this from an economical perspective. Japan was JUST recently overtaken by China as the second largest economy in the world, and is still FAR behind the US in this regard. Japan and South Korea's economies are larger than the Chinese economy when put together by a fair ammount. As such, China cannot dictate regional policy purely based on economic pressure/extortion, nor would they want to as they are interested in continued trade and economic growth, especially with the US.

I also see a lot of people saying stuff like "North Korea could crush South Korea with artillery and nuke Japan, and then kill everyone who invaded because they have such a large army, etc". Ok, so, what is the overall goal of the North Korean regime? To survive. This is their ONLY goal; not the spread of communism, not the fight against capitalism, nor any other ideological struggle. They simply want to carry on and be left alone (except for the continued shipments of food/oil/medicine.) North Korea is fucked if they invade South Korea, the regime would NOT survive such a war, and the region would suffer devastating consequences. Contrary to popular belief, North Korea DOES NOT possess any dependable means of delivery of a nuclear weapon, nor is there any empirical evidence of them actually managing to produce a nuclear weapon. Yes, I am aware a nuclear explosion was recorded a little while back by American Seismological instruments, but this was a relatively small explosion, much smaller than the Nagasaki bomb, and indeed it was downclassed to that of a nuclear device, NOT a bomb. As for means of delivery, North Korea has made several attempts to launch a satellite into orbit, failing miserably every time. Yes, they do possess some missile systems, but no, these are not accurate enough, nor do they have the range to really harm Japan, unless they get lucky (kinda like V1 rockets ruing WW2). In a conventional war, North Korea has a superior lead in both standing army, tanks, guns, ships, etc ON PAPER. Did you know most North Korean vessels are actually mini-submarines or gunboats/patrol boats? Did you know the standing army is largely due to the millions of reservists they have conscripted? And have you even considered the technoligical deficit they would find themselves in when going against the most advanced war machines on the planet?

Finally, China would NEVER engange in a war that North Korea had started. They didn't do so in 1950, they wouldn't do so now. They were even instrumental in the division of the country along the 38th parallel


Feel free to argue any of these points, I wrote my bachelor on the subject and would love to have some more credible insight/reflected debate on the matter. Oh right.. TL.net forums, better not hope for too too much!
wubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwub I love me some dubstep wubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwubwub
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
June 25 2011 21:22 GMT
#84
I personally think it's very likely that China will emerge as the new superpower in the world within this decade. Whether the U.S. is able to maintain it's status along side China joining the club, is up in the air. In some ways China has reached that status already. Of course they are trying to expand their sphere of influence. That what superpowers do.

China is becoming such an economic powerhouse, they won't have to make war in order to grow in power. They will be able to suck nations dry from the inside. I think they realize this.

I think Japan will stay as it is for the foreseeable future. But I would be very surprised if North Korea didn't collapse in the next few years. Things are bad there, and the Dictator is getting pretty old.

My take on the possibilities there are that if the government did collapse, it would make the most sense for the people of North Korea to either reunite with the South. Or be absorbed by China. But sometimes things like this are a slow process taking decades.

:)
Telebear
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom107 Posts
June 25 2011 21:25 GMT
#85
On June 26 2011 05:25 Medrea wrote:
Current logic is that without US presence in South Korea, North Korea with its 4th largest standing army in the world will rush across the DMZ and capture Seoul, South Korea in no time at all.
.



please stop spouting this absolute nonsense as has already been established in this thread and for anyone who knows anything about the conflict the size of north koreas army doesnt matter
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
June 25 2011 21:27 GMT
#86
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll
"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
June 25 2011 21:33 GMT
#87
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

maybe the post was 90 years old
lalala
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6637 Posts
June 25 2011 21:33 GMT
#88
On June 26 2011 06:25 Telebear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 05:25 Medrea wrote:
Current logic is that without US presence in South Korea, North Korea with its 4th largest standing army in the world will rush across the DMZ and capture Seoul, South Korea in no time at all.
.



please stop spouting this absolute nonsense as has already been established in this thread and for anyone who knows anything about the conflict the size of north koreas army doesnt matter

The main problem is the ridiculous amount of artillery they have targeted at Seoul, lying in wait. That isn't quite so easy to stop.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
June 25 2011 21:36 GMT
#89
People need to watchBrotherhood of War The best korean movie of all time, and it clearly shows why need to have our troops in Korea. Hell would break loose if we left that place.
Aah thats the stuff..
Koreish
Profile Joined June 2011
United States17 Posts
June 25 2011 21:38 GMT
#90
On June 26 2011 01:57 exog wrote:
Interetsting question, people in general forget that the human mind doesnt change in 50 years, and a new big war should never surprize anyone.

As NK has a mad dictator-family, its very possible they would "retake whats theirs with the blesing of (insert god here)", or any other stupid reason like the americans do all the time. If this happen its very possible that china would support them for political/economicals reasons without dirtying their hands.



You do realize that the only ties between North Korea and China is that they are both communist right? China wants nothing to do with Kim Jeong Il and his family. Everyone in Asia is afraid of that man and what he might do if he declares war. Remember North Korea has been testing and making nuclear weaponry, although it can't reach the US or Europe, the nukes can still take out much of Japan, South Korea, and China before anyone could respond.

It is because larger countries like Germany, Russia, and the United States have bases around, and can bring down swift military retaliation that North Korea hasn't tried anything yet. I'm not a big fan of war and with very few exceptions have seen any war to be necessary. I do feel however we need to keep our bases in that area running just to try and keep North Korea in check.
Playguuu
Profile Joined April 2010
United States926 Posts
June 25 2011 21:41 GMT
#91
It's a launching point in case shit goes down. If we have no bases anywhere and someone decides to attack Japan or South Korea, you're pretty much SOL .
I used to be just like you, then I took a sweetroll to the knee.
Hinanawi
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2250 Posts
June 25 2011 21:50 GMT
#92
Personally I feel like the citizens of each country should be allowed to decide whether they want US bases in their country or not.

I imagine that would result in us leaving Germany (seems dumb to even still be there), Japan MIGHT kick the U.S. out (it might be a close vote, I'm not sure what would happen), but South Korea definitely, definitely doesn't want the U.S. gone.
Favorite progamers (in order): Flash, Stork, Violet, Sea. ||| Get better soon, Violet!
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 22:11:43
June 25 2011 21:51 GMT
#93
On June 26 2011 06:16 DannyJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 05:41 Klogon wrote:
Too many people underestimate the SK military. Look at this graph that shows military spending and notice that North Korea is not even on the list bc their spending is too small compared to the rest. This is what happens when your GDP is so tiny.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/military-spending

So SK spends 2.8% of GDP while NK spends 15%+ and SK still spends more. And generally in modern warfare, the more you spend the better your military capabilities are.


In modern warfare you still can't discount an army of 1+ million enlisted and 8+ million reserves, even if they are probably armed in cold war era munitions.


Nobody is discounting anything. NK will pummel much of Seoul's infrastructure within days with artillery. But to say NK's 1million man cold-war era army would sweep through SK's 600,000 man modern army that has complete air-dominance is not accurate.
RevLesMis
Profile Joined February 2011
United States23 Posts
June 25 2011 22:00 GMT
#94
On June 26 2011 06:33 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

maybe the post was 90 years old


lol look it up the French Armed Forces is currently the largest army in Europe the 3rd largest army in NATO and only the US and Russia have more nukes then France. SO yeah check your facts before you start being a douche and an ignorant American and start hating on a country you know nothing about.
Ideas are more dangerous then guns, if we don't let our enemies have guns why should we let them have ideas? - Stalin
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
June 25 2011 22:04 GMT
#95
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


true but what if NK attacks? then what.
Kuhva
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom183 Posts
June 25 2011 22:04 GMT
#96
On June 26 2011 02:04 Telebear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:56 Feridan wrote:
They can't allow a regional power to shut down the Straits of Malacca, Straits of Hormuz, the Panama or Suez canals .



have you ever heard of the suez crisis?? The US allowed the situation you're describing as not happening to happen


....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis

....

America wasn't involved, in fact there was a distinct lack of US support... is that what your getting at?
Brotoss Fighting!!!!
Novalisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Israel1818 Posts
June 25 2011 22:06 GMT
#97
Did this inspire the OP, by any chance?

/commercial
emc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3088 Posts
June 25 2011 22:08 GMT
#98
I don't see a problem with the bases, if anything they offer a place where they can easily transport goods from in case of emergencies. I'm sure our base in japan helped a TON during the tsunami. We're pretty big donators when it comes to emergency relief.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 22:11:43
June 25 2011 22:11 GMT
#99
On June 26 2011 06:51 Klogon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 06:16 DannyJ wrote:
On June 26 2011 05:41 Klogon wrote:
Too many people underestimate the SK military. Look at this graph that shows military spending and notice that North Korea is not even on the list bc their spending is too small compared to the rest. This is what happens when your GDP is so tiny.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/06/military-spending

So SK spends 2.8% of GDP while NK spends 15%+ and SK still spends more. And generally in modern warfare, the more you spend the better your military capabilities are.


In modern warfare you still can't discount an army of 1+ million enlisted and 8+ million reserves, even if they are probably armed in cold war era munitions.


Nobody is discounting anything. NK will pummel much of Seoul's infrastructure within days with artillery. But to say NK's 1million man cold-war era army would sweep through SK's 600,000 man modern army with complete air-dominance is not accurate.


But that's the whole problem.

Everyone can agree that NK would never win such a war but given their army size there can't be any doubt that the destruction and loss of human life would be on an enormous scale.

Winning a war doesn't mean that you can't lose it.
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
June 25 2011 22:12 GMT
#100
On June 26 2011 07:00 RevLesMis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 06:33 youngminii wrote:
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

maybe the post was 90 years old


lol look it up the French Armed Forces is currently the largest army in Europe the 3rd largest army in NATO and only the US and Russia have more nukes then France. SO yeah check your facts before you start being a douche and an ignorant American and start hating on a country you know nothing about.


Well... It seems in your title is states you are from the United States, and neither I nor the other member of TL you mentioned pose the same location. He is from Australia and I am from Canada, aren't you an ignorant American and a hipocrite.

And last time I checked, the largest army per capita was Switzerland, and I think we all know something about the French attempts at being an army past the Napoleon Era. (WW1, ope fucked that, WW2, didn't even notice there involvement after being dominated so badly)

Good thing that I, being opposite of the ignorant hipocritical American, has video proof of the effective French army.

Enjoy : D

"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
Telebear
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom107 Posts
June 25 2011 22:41 GMT
#101


.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis

....

America wasn't involved, in fact there was a distinct lack of US support... is that what your getting at?



my point is that historically the US has not supported great powers in maintaining trade routes in favour of regional powers, this was in response to a poster claiming that the US actively controlled such routes in order to benefit its own interests, and america was involved in the suez crisis as it ended it showing an even greater support that moved away from the old system of certain powers controlling trade routes
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 00:23:44
June 25 2011 22:42 GMT
#102
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

For people who actually know what they're talking about it's quite well documented fact...they are the only countries with blue water navies and decent air forces. Additionally no one mentioned super powers, there is only one super power (actually the hyper power), the US, the UK and France are simply the next strongest countries in terms of military power projection capabilities (obviously Russia and China have more men but good luck getting them anywhere).

On June 26 2011 07:12 MERLIN. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 07:00 RevLesMis wrote:
On June 26 2011 06:33 youngminii wrote:
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

maybe the post was 90 years old


lol look it up the French Armed Forces is currently the largest army in Europe the 3rd largest army in NATO and only the US and Russia have more nukes then France. SO yeah check your facts before you start being a douche and an ignorant American and start hating on a country you know nothing about.


Well... It seems in your title is states you are from the United States, and neither I nor the other member of TL you mentioned pose the same location. He is from Australia and I am from Canada, aren't you an ignorant American and a hipocrite.

And last time I checked, the largest army per capita was Switzerland, and I think we all know something about the French attempts at being an army past the Napoleon Era. (WW1, ope fucked that, WW2, didn't even notice there involvement after being dominated so badly)

Good thing that I, being opposite of the ignorant hipocritical American, has video proof of the effective French army.

Enjoy : D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QGG6X5w8qs

Where did you see anything about largest army per capita? He simply meant largest army by size and he is correct, the French military is regarded as either the 2nd or 3rd best in the world today.

And your history is off, France fought well in WW1 and was on the winning side, it sacrificed the most out of the western allies in that war.

AND your video is the freaking Canadian army, jesus christ.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
June 25 2011 22:43 GMT
#103
How is it possible for countries like the U.K and France to have still have such strong militarizes?

Is it just trade relation with the US and German aka the kings of western arms dealing?

It is hard to imagine such a dangerous country that is so small?
Eufouria
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom4425 Posts
June 25 2011 22:44 GMT
#104
On June 26 2011 01:53 Voltaire wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.


This isn't 1930, there is no way an "arms race" would emerge in the present day. Also there are severe restrictions on the Japanese military because of WWII.

Why would there not be an arms race? Countries are constantly investing in research into new potential weapons. Maybe at a slower rate than during the coldwar, but they could always invest more if they thought it was necessary.
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 22:52:19
June 25 2011 22:50 GMT
#105
On June 26 2011 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:
How is it possible for countries like the U.K and France to have still have such strong militarizes?

Is it just trade relation with the US and German aka the kings of western arms dealing?

It is hard to imagine such a dangerous country that is so small?

Well really it's just the UK and France, Germany and Italy are probably the next best in Europe but they're quite far behind Britain and France in terms of tech/numbers.

Germany was limited like Japan after WW2 so that's why it's not so high up on the list, the UK and France though have been 2 of the richest countries in the world since WW2 and the United States' top allies so it's really expected that they have decent militaries.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
June 25 2011 22:56 GMT
#106
On June 26 2011 07:50 jello_biafra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 07:43 AttackZerg wrote:
How is it possible for countries like the U.K and France to have still have such strong militarizes?

Is it just trade relation with the US and German aka the kings of western arms dealing?

It is hard to imagine such a dangerous country that is so small?

Well really it's just the UK and France, Germany and Italy are probably the next best in Europe but they're quite far behind Britain and France in terms of tech/numbers.

Germany was limited like Japan after WW2 so that's why it's not so high up on the list, the UK and France though have been 2 of the richest countries in the world since WW2 and the United States' top allies so it's really expected that they have decent militaries.


Okay, then it makes sense why their economies are in bad shape like ours =)
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 23:25:42
June 25 2011 23:24 GMT
#107
Except France isnt in bad shape, its one of the more healthy economies of the western world along with us nordic countries (protip, the common denominator is high taxes)

You cant make the correlation Huge army => Economy in shambles, Spain has a much smaller army than France and Germany and is in much grander economic trouble, its a really wierd link you thought up there.
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
June 25 2011 23:30 GMT
#108
On June 26 2011 08:24 Catch]22 wrote:
Except France isnt in bad shape, its one of the more healthy economies of the western world along with us nordic countries (protip, the common denominator is high taxes)

You cant make the correlation Huge army => Economy in shambles, Spain has a much smaller army than France and Germany and is in much grander economic trouble, its a really wierd link you thought up there.


When I checked european debt last week, france and england were both nearly at 100% GPD in debt?

I don't want to derail this thread any further, please if you have linkable information please PM me, I am rather interested in informed information!

Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
June 25 2011 23:41 GMT
#109
On June 26 2011 08:30 AttackZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 08:24 Catch]22 wrote:
Except France isnt in bad shape, its one of the more healthy economies of the western world along with us nordic countries (protip, the common denominator is high taxes)

You cant make the correlation Huge army => Economy in shambles, Spain has a much smaller army than France and Germany and is in much grander economic trouble, its a really wierd link you thought up there.


When I checked european debt last week, france and england were both nearly at 100% GPD in debt?

I don't want to derail this thread any further, please if you have linkable information please PM me, I am rather interested in informed information!



Its more complex than just a solid debt figure. I suggest you read this link for more in depth info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_European_sovereign_debt_crisis
NrT.RuSH
Profile Joined September 2007
Germany214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 00:01:22
June 25 2011 23:59 GMT
#110
You know one thing i love is how people cry about "We spent to much money on war and blah blah yet they wont go live in one of those countries who suffer from war everyday or there own goverment or terrorist groups killing the locals. If USA doesnt have bases its hard for us to respond to emergency situations and also to provide backup as we need a place to land/takeoff. Also many of you dont know there is a hospital in Germany for wounded troops coming home from afghanistan and iraq? Do we just shut it down? Go live in another country were war is everyday and then come back here and post "Lets bring our troops home so we can have war at our homefront!"
US Air Force Stationed in Ramstein, Germany. Char: NrTRuSH Code: 768
Swagalisk
Profile Joined April 2011
United States7 Posts
June 26 2011 00:03 GMT
#111
On June 26 2011 06:17 MERLIN. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 06:00 Swagalisk wrote:
Just as a note. We will never "pull out" of Japan or South Korea. It doesn't matter who the President at the time; our pressence there is needed. Simply us being near by to "dangerous" countries keeps them in check.

For example, lets say North Korea does attack countries in that region. We could launch an offensive from Japan or South Korea the same day. As apposed to having to fight for a foot hold in that region, which could take some time.


Who dictates the rights of the United States to even involve themselves in the matter, your "foothold" on every ones earth. Not your earth, don't speak as if you are the peacekeepers of the world, whenever I hear of that I think of Robin Williams take on the military, went something like this (paraphrased)

"yeah... (heavy drawl) We sure did save the middle east, we went in, john wayne style, blasted 1 big hole after another, we did good didnt we... We, us Americans, are such great people we decided to go back a few decades later and blow the holes we already blew open, into bigger ones. We like to blow, especially in san fransico, but not to stray from the point, we just decided to move the rubble on the left, slightly to the right... Aren't we kind, bet the people in the Middle East alwaysss thank us for are reconstruction efforts and kind support"

United States are far from a peacekeeping nation, and the foothold is only to withhold its general interest in the sector, not attempt to "keep peace" if the American government gives less than a shit about its own population, then I hardly think it cares about SK and NK, or Japan for the matter. It's all about keeping chinas growth limited, trade lanes open, not peace in the area (that's just a perk). Don't be naive, you are right on one thing though, "keeps them in check" because thats all it is, just keeping the interests of America in check.


You're an idiot. If you really think our pressence in SK and Japan is about keeping China's growth limited, i reccomend you stop watching so much liberal news casts.

User was warned for this post
"The worst thing I can be is the same as everybody else. I hate that." Arnold Schwarzenegger
raviy
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia207 Posts
June 26 2011 00:17 GMT
#112
I understand that the Western media likes to portray the Chinese, Iranian, and Korean leadership as being insane, but... the truth is, to have become major leaders and held onto their positions, there must be more to it.

The most logical attribute of any person is that of self-preservation. Even if the US pulls their troops out of Asia, that just increases their response time, from a few hours to a few days. The US would still come to the aid of its allies should they need it.

NK will not fire nukes at SK without provocation, because they don't want to destroy SK. They want to reunite under their own government. Also, NK knows that a full scale mobilization against SK would lead to their country being invaded by multiple foreign entities. NK cannot give up their military arms, because that would leave them exposed with no bargaining power (See: Libya). NK will just continue posturing, triggering incidents, to increase their perceived threat, to ensure they receive foreign aid in exchange for not attacking anyone.

China will not fully mobilize against any country, because that would align the Western powers against them. A lack of US presence in the area will mean that China will be able to use their navy to set up blockades of disputed islands to assert their sovereignty. China will not risk a war with any neighbouring country, in the knowledge that the US will not hesitate to side against it.

US military expenditure per capita is currently almost 30x that of China's, and its military expenditure in pure monetary terms amounts to about a third of the world's total military expenditure. Although the Western media likes to report on China's "massive" military spending, China's military spending as a percentage of GDP is at 2.2%, which ranks it between 40th and 50th place in the world. Besides, Japan and SK's military is far ahead of China's due to their military trade agreements with the US. It's hard to imagine China being able to truly threaten any of the developed Asian nations.

So... I don't see how the US pulling its troops out of Asia will make much of a difference.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
June 26 2011 00:22 GMT
#113
On June 26 2011 09:03 Swagalisk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 06:17 MERLIN. wrote:
On June 26 2011 06:00 Swagalisk wrote:
Just as a note. We will never "pull out" of Japan or South Korea. It doesn't matter who the President at the time; our pressence there is needed. Simply us being near by to "dangerous" countries keeps them in check.

For example, lets say North Korea does attack countries in that region. We could launch an offensive from Japan or South Korea the same day. As apposed to having to fight for a foot hold in that region, which could take some time.


Who dictates the rights of the United States to even involve themselves in the matter, your "foothold" on every ones earth. Not your earth, don't speak as if you are the peacekeepers of the world, whenever I hear of that I think of Robin Williams take on the military, went something like this (paraphrased)

"yeah... (heavy drawl) We sure did save the middle east, we went in, john wayne style, blasted 1 big hole after another, we did good didnt we... We, us Americans, are such great people we decided to go back a few decades later and blow the holes we already blew open, into bigger ones. We like to blow, especially in san fransico, but not to stray from the point, we just decided to move the rubble on the left, slightly to the right... Aren't we kind, bet the people in the Middle East alwaysss thank us for are reconstruction efforts and kind support"

United States are far from a peacekeeping nation, and the foothold is only to withhold its general interest in the sector, not attempt to "keep peace" if the American government gives less than a shit about its own population, then I hardly think it cares about SK and NK, or Japan for the matter. It's all about keeping chinas growth limited, trade lanes open, not peace in the area (that's just a perk). Don't be naive, you are right on one thing though, "keeps them in check" because thats all it is, just keeping the interests of America in check.


You're an idiot. If you really think our pressence in SK and Japan is about keeping China's growth limited, i reccomend you stop watching so much liberal news casts.


It's not directly keeping China in check, but it certainly is indirectly. The US bases in the region and more importantly, quickly establishing a logistics line in the case of any conflict from further bases in the Pacific at the very least allows some countries plan their foreign relations around a possible US response.

And don't call others idiots.
Get it by your hands...
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
June 26 2011 00:23 GMT
#114
How accurate can we assume the reports of military spending in nations across the world to actually be?

I'm not scared of china or a chinese threat, I've always viewed china as a ying, yang situation and hoped for equality among super powers, but how is it possible to truly trust government reports on military spending, and yet nobody knows accurate costs of the nuclear age of america-russia and how much money is spent on the different covert agencies around the world. I don't think it is possible to judge a military according to world numbers about spending. Why would any country fully disclose what they spend on and especially a country which limits information in and out of the country.
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 00:31:39
June 26 2011 00:30 GMT
#115
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


wtf you talking ? seriously

in germany are nearly all us troops gone (bad for german economy cause they was in not that righ regions and bring alot of jobs/money etc so far a BIG lose for germany)
out of japan well i dont know perhaps japan lose some money but i think its not that problem

but south korea ? realy ? the day they do north korea just destroy south korea man .. their army is like 200 times bigger

i dont think they are able to take on japan cause of the ocean and the way bigger japan army then the south korean, also they not attack other countrys without americans in the region, but with south korea they still IN WAR
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
June 26 2011 00:33 GMT
#116
I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them.

I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed.

Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure.

Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past.

This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years.

Absolutely ridiculous.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
hizBALLIN
Profile Joined June 2010
United States163 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 01:14:02
June 26 2011 00:35 GMT
#117
As a preface to my post, I would like to state that the enormous presence of valuable cobalt in Korea will keep the United States there until it is mined out, like the newly discovered wealth of lithium will keep the US in Afghanistan for until it is depleted.

That said, the US pulling out of Korea would definitely destabilize the country, but I really cannot say to what extent. The South Korean army is a capable one, and they acquitted themselves well in Vietnam as our allies. My experiences with KATUSAs in the army was mixed, but they generally seemed to be capable individuals. Surely North Korea would be at least somewhat more bold with their probing antics if the US were to leave, though I feel fairly certain that if there was an invasion, The United States would honor their long time allies' requests for help. A more interesting possibility would be that reunification could be an outcome.

Aside from an increase in defense spending in Japan, I don't really see a massive change in the Japanese people's lifestyles (though potentially in politics) being the result of a full US withdraw from Okinawa. Their nation operates as if the base on Okinawa is as as insignificant as it probably is.

edit:
On June 26 2011 07:42 jello_biafra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definitely) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasn't had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to today's Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

For people who actually know what they're talking about it's quite well documented fact...they are the only countries with blue water navies and decent air forces. Additionally no one mentioned super powers, there is only one super power (actually the hyper power), the US, the UK and France are simply the next strongest countries in terms of military power projection capabilities (obviously Russia and China have more men but good luck getting them anywhere).


China: You really should not discount the Chinese Navy, which is incredibly capable. They have a vast fleet with a large carrier capability, and very advanced submarine technologies. Their air assets are years behind those of the US, the UK, France, Russia, and India, but to assert that they're not a world military power is foolish.

Russia: With access to the Atlantic, and very extensive access to the pacific, the Russian navy is probably the closest rival to that of the United States in the pacific ocean. Despite the problems created by the collapse of the USSR twenty years ago, they've rebounded in terms of spending and proficiency, though not to the levels seen during the Cold War era.

India's blue water navy is definitely small, but in trials (Cope India 04-the present) against United States and UK fighter pilots, the Indian pilots either won the scenarios outright (as in Cope India 04, with a 90% win rate over the US) or traded at least evenly with their adversaries, while not using the full radar capabilities of their craft as to hide their precision and acquisition techniques. They fly the newest Sukhoi aircraft and are well trained. On a final note, I'd like to add that after the Falkland war, arm chair tacticians (like myself) ought to be more wary of the fallibility of Super Power-level naval craft as nearly every power I've listed (as well as South Korea) field G4 fighter squadrons. Generation 4 Fighter Jets and the weapons they carry continue to evolve in terms of range and shrinking radar cross-sections while the defense capabilities of the sea-going vessels fielded by the navies of the world have largely stagnated for a half a century. While Generation 5 fighters are superior in most terms of detectability, that is not necessarily as viable a trait as maneuverability in close air combat situations, and many (if not most) G4 fighter craft have outright superior maneuvering capabilities to their G5 counterparts, particularly the SU47, which will be entering production in around five years. It's important not to think of Generation 5 stealth fighter craft as the next stage of fighters, but rather as a parallel philosophy of what fighter craft ought to be. With this in mind, G5 fighter craft will never replace G4 fighters, but rather can operate in additional role as deep strike air cover, since they are capable of evading many detection techniques that their predecessors were not. I have digressed pretty significantly; I mean to say that any nation with carrier technology and up to date G4 aircraft are more than capable of standing up to a superpower's navy with the right pilots at the stick.

source:G4 Fighter Craft, discusses Cope India results at the bottom

fixed some of my own and MERLIN's spelling mistakes.
That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcomes; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace.
Dizmaul
Profile Joined March 2010
United States831 Posts
June 26 2011 00:40 GMT
#118
Have any of you read "The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century" by George Friedman?
It is what it is
stork4ever
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1036 Posts
June 26 2011 00:41 GMT
#119
Most likely nothing will happen, but I doubt the United States, Japan, and S. Korea would want to find out.
Stiluz
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway688 Posts
June 26 2011 00:43 GMT
#120
If the US pulled out of South Korea and Japan, the region would be a little destabilized. It would depend on to what extent they pulled their forces. Maintaining the alliances, but pulling the troops would not do too much, but if the alliance obligations were severely weakened, I think Japan would face new problems. They would have to up their defense spending considerably lest they be in a weak military position, and East-Asian countries usually react negative to any increase in the Japanese military due to WW2. Another problem Japan would face would be if they lost their "nuclear umbrella" the US provides, as the Japanese population would certainly object to any nuclear weaponry being developed.
Ravencruiser
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada519 Posts
June 26 2011 00:54 GMT
#121
On June 26 2011 09:33 tyCe wrote:
I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them.

I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed.

Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure.

Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past.

This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years.

Absolutely ridiculous.


This man knows something.

/wins thread.
"Yah, free will is a bitch" - Drone
Shigure
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States215 Posts
June 26 2011 00:57 GMT
#122
Homefront would happen lol.
If anyone played that game's singleplayer.
Iam the mod in KawaiiRice's stream, banning you
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
June 26 2011 00:59 GMT
#123
On June 26 2011 09:33 tyCe wrote:
I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them.

I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed.

Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure.

Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past.

This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years.

Absolutely ridiculous.


I can't believe I'm reading this. Your fantasy of China and its history as well as general Korean perception of the US "occupation" is just jaw-dropping.
Translator
Razzah
Profile Joined March 2011
United States35 Posts
June 26 2011 01:04 GMT
#124
You people forget that the Korean War is still in effect to this day. China is obligated to help NK if war were to reopen. That is the only reason U.S stays in SK. As for Japan we should help them fully recover from the Earthquake and than just leave.
obbob
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada72 Posts
June 26 2011 01:08 GMT
#125
China is currently in large economic growth. War costs a ton of money, so I don't think they'll even think about one until either something extreme comes up or they have peaked for a while.

However, if Japan began to militarize, I think China would politically put a ton of pressure to stop it due to the past history of Japan and China.

And my opinion on North Korea is that despite being poor as a country, I think their military is actually not as technologically primitive as some claim. One reason every other aspect of their country is devolvoing is due to that their military is probably equivalent to a country much wealthier than them.
Perseverance
Profile Joined February 2010
Japan2800 Posts
June 26 2011 01:22 GMT
#126
On June 26 2011 01:32 kaisen wrote:
Politically speaking, what would happen if US pulls troops out of South Korea and Japan? This is an interesting question because right now there is a huge power struggle in East Asia between china and US. At the moment, both South Korea and Japan are paying billions of dollars for US bases every year and both countries want US troops to stay. But what would happen if US completely pulls out of East Asia? China wants US gone from the region, along with their sphere of influence. US is using both South korea and Japan as buffer zone for china. Will china become sole dominant power in Asia and both South Korea and Japan fall under china's influence? Will US ever pull troops out of both SK and Japan?




Where/how are they paying for US bases in these countries?


I am stationed in Japan and I see the exact opposite. The US is essentially paying Japan to be here. Just on the island of Okinawa we have over 100,000 troops and hire over 20,000 Japanese employee's to work on base. All of these people buy goods off the local economy, not to mention about 30,000 DoD personnel living off base paying at on average about $2,500 for housing...


Keep in mind Okinawa only has about 1.1mil people as well.

<3 Moonbattles
PerkyPenguin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States99 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 01:52:06
June 26 2011 01:44 GMT
#127
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 26 2011 07:42 jello_biafra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

For people who actually know what they're talking about it's quite well documented fact...they are the only countries with blue water navies and decent air forces. Additionally no one mentioned super powers, there is only one super power (actually the hyper power), the US, the UK and France are simply the next strongest countries in terms of military power projection capabilities (obviously Russia and China have more men but good luck getting them anywhere).

Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 07:12 MERLIN. wrote:
On June 26 2011 07:00 RevLesMis wrote:
On June 26 2011 06:33 youngminii wrote:
On June 26 2011 06:27 MERLIN. wrote:
I think someone posted the 3 superpowers in the globe that can actually implement any force anywhere around the globe were the United states (definatly) the UK(doubt it) and France(Are you fucking kidding? France hasnt had an intimidating military since Prussia was still a nation, and Austria was an vast empire in comparison to todays Austria.

Lol, I think it might just have been a troll

maybe the post was 90 years old


lol look it up the French Armed Forces is currently the largest army in Europe the 3rd largest army in NATO and only the US and Russia have more nukes then France. SO yeah check your facts before you start being a douche and an ignorant American and start hating on a country you know nothing about.



Well... It seems in your title is states you are from the United States, and neither I nor the other member of TL you mentioned pose the same location. He is from Australia and I am from Canada, aren't you an ignorant American and a hipocrite.

And last time I checked, the largest army per capita was Switzerland, and I think we all know something about the French attempts at being an army past the Napoleon Era. (WW1, ope fucked that, WW2, didn't even notice there involvement after being dominated so badly)

Good thing that I, being opposite of the ignorant hipocritical American, has video proof of the effective French army.

Enjoy : D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QGG6X5w8qs
Where did you see anything about largest army per capita? He simply meant largest army by size and he is correct, the French military is regarded as either the 2nd or 3rd best in the world today.

And your history is off, France fought well in WW1 and was on the winning side, it sacrificed the most out of the western allies in that war.

AND your video is the freaking Canadian army, jesus christ.



I lol'd so hard, I guess the whole "ignorant hipocritical" statement was ironic for him
chasfrank
Profile Joined March 2010
Gambia59 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 01:58:27
June 26 2011 01:56 GMT
#128
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


I'm glad there are US troops in my country. They have a forward base in central Europe and they could help out should we ever be under attack from France again.

Edit: Also to whoever said this nonsense about Tibet belonging to China in any kind of way: You are completely wrong. Any claims China makes on Tibet are unjustified.
aqui
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany1023 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 02:19:02
June 26 2011 02:14 GMT
#129
On June 26 2011 09:59 white_horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 09:33 tyCe wrote:
I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them.

I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed.

Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure.

Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past.

This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years.

Absolutely ridiculous.


I can't believe I'm reading this. Your fantasy of China and its history as well as general Korean perception of the US "occupation" is just jaw-dropping.

Financial aspects aside i don't mind it at all having US bases in Germany. I never heard anyone consider them as occupying forces. Even after WW2 when they truly were, they were often viewed as 'friends' in the general populace. After all they allowed Germany to recover from WWII against their allies will and their intervention in WWII prevented the Soviets from taking over Germany.
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 02:36:33
June 26 2011 02:36 GMT
#130
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.
Translator
Syben
Profile Joined October 2010
United States512 Posts
June 26 2011 02:38 GMT
#131
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.


Japan can not return to its once prior status as part of the conditions of surrender in the Postdam Declaration Article 9. By law their "Defense Force" is only supposed to be that.

On SK, I think the US would be putting SK in a very bad spot if they pulled out, its really just out of the question.
Definitely gonna switch to G, the only race I havent played yet. - TLO
SouthWales
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada27 Posts
June 26 2011 02:42 GMT
#132
As far as the US and china are concerned we are living in a MAD world (mutually assured destruction) with the US owning the far superior arsenal (not that it really matters). So having a buffer region for defense against China is kind of silly. I sincerely hope at the age of wars between super powers is over, ww2 was horrific enough and that was before they invented the pocket calculator, think about what havok we could reap on each other today?
MotorDouglas
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil66 Posts
June 26 2011 02:53 GMT
#133
US don't want to nuke China because then they would have to deal with NK, Iran and Russia
i can't come up with something witty to put here (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Perseverance
Profile Joined February 2010
Japan2800 Posts
June 26 2011 02:54 GMT
#134
On June 26 2011 11:42 SouthWales wrote:
As far as the US and china are concerned we are living in a MAD world (mutually assured destruction) with the US owning the far superior arsenal (not that it really matters). So having a buffer region for defense against China is kind of silly. I sincerely hope at the age of wars between super powers is over, ww2 was horrific enough and that was before they invented the pocket calculator, think about what havok we could reap on each other today?



I know, math would get done everywhere!!!!!
<3 Moonbattles
Perseverance
Profile Joined February 2010
Japan2800 Posts
June 26 2011 02:57 GMT
#135
On June 26 2011 09:33 tyCe wrote:
I find the general opinion of this thread absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone even think that China would take over SK or Japan? What would that even do for Chinese interests? China has never been an expansionist state even during the 1000-2000 years that it had capability of doing so. It has always been content to rule within its sphere and use its political influence to keep its neighbours peaceful with them.

I'm not saying that history would repeat itself with the new China. I just want to ask why the hell people treat China as some potentially dangerous or aggressive state. The only areas where China has tried exert dominion over are Tibet and Taiwan, both of which, are part of China's traditional territory that China wishes to or has reclaimed.

Second of all, I firmly think that having one's forces overseas in another State's territory, surrounding this "potential threat" is far, far more aggressive than anything that China has done. USA has always fought its wars on enemy territory. By definition, they have always been the aggressors. By mentality, they have always been the aggressors. Only by politics, have they been "defending the peace" like the Templars "defended the Church" in the Islamic world. Hah! Yeah, sure.

Lastly, I implore all the white Americans in this thread to actually go and ask a Japanese or Korean person (not whitewashed ones from America) how they view the US occupation of their country. The people who I have asked view it as humiliating, demeaning and aggressive. Perhaps in the case of Korea, they actually believe in a genuine threat of NK (although I have doubts about the validity of such fears anyway), but in Japan, it is only a shameful reminder of their past.

This is ridiculous. China would never support NK if they went aggressive on SK. China have been the mediators of peace in the region for a long time, and rightfully so - China is concentrated on economic growth and solving many very major internal issues like social disharmony, environmental pollution and institutional corruption. The last thing they want is a war, and the second last thing they want is to sabotage the image they have been building for themselves in the international community for the last 30 years. Only America and its allies have viewed China as an expansionist threat in the last 20 or so years.

Absolutely ridiculous.



I've lived in Japan for 3 years and all the Japanese I've talked to like having us here. The only exceptions would be the people who knew/were victims of some crime (theft/rape etc.) that an American did...

At least as far as the 100ish people I've spoken with go.
<3 Moonbattles
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 26 2011 03:29 GMT
#136
On June 26 2011 09:40 Dizmaul wrote:
Have any of you read "The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century" by George Friedman?

i read it before and i thought it was kinda biased to USA lol. Ill read it again
seoul_kiM
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States545 Posts
June 26 2011 03:29 GMT
#137
It really is pointless to sit here and discuss this because honestly we don't even know half the story and the business and economics that back every geo-political decision that the top policy makers of nations make. I work for the government with a medium level security clearance and I can't go much further into that but there's information that I get that some of the public has no idea about or maybe know very little about. There are my superiors who know much more and make the decisions they make for classified reasons.

I won't lie and say that many of you have valid points but it's really impossible to outline why the United States should be in Japan or South Korea with the simple public knowledge we have. It's obvious that we think it's because of the looming threat that North Korea poses to the region but it has a lot to do with China. The United States keeps its bases there as a foothold on the East Asian region. The US's regional control is through South Korea and Japan and it works for the US to balance against China. The US views East Asia through a realism lens which involves balancing against nations like China by creating a bandwagon with nations like Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan.

I read one post here trying to debunk the fact that China is trying to consolidate regional power in the East Asia region and I must say that post was simply naivete and "for a lack of a better word" stupid. China exerts its force on Taiwan and Tibet because it believes these states are still part of the old China. China also is in constant debate with India over mountain territories which is just a microcosm of the real struggle for super-population prowess in the region. Then there is the link between China and Iran in which China is still providing Iran with natural resources and possible other resources. This relationship serves China as a means to balancing against the embargoes and sanctions that have been placed on Iran by the United States. China also trades with the Janjuweed of Sudan who has sparked genocide in Darfur and mass-displacement of people in the nation of Sudan and its neighbors. There are many other examples of China's aggressive policy including its role in the 6-party talks with North Korea and its impassivity and indecisiveness.

You all fail to realize that the world is a complicated multi-dimensional game of Risk and Civilization combined. China needs to balance the scale with the United States and the United States needs to do the same against China while trying to trade with each other and such. If the United States left the East Asian region, China's dominance would be further advanced and progressed without much hindrance let alone the looming aggressive threat of North Korea. The US's presence in the East Asian region is essential for the United States and would be worse than better for the United States to leave.
oGs.MC: Repair IMBAAAAAAAAAAa
trucejl
Profile Joined May 2010
120 Posts
June 26 2011 03:41 GMT
#138
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote:
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.


Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other.

Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side.

Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least.

In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend.
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
June 26 2011 03:42 GMT
#139
north korea isnt going to do anything so US can just leave most of that alone. I doubt USA vs china will start eitehr.
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
June 26 2011 03:44 GMT
#140
If they pulled out of Japan and SK they would probably strengthen the rest of their alliances with SEA and Australia. Jp and Sk are strong enough to look after themselves and dont really consider themselves allied with America. They are independent enough to put their own interests ahead of USA's when it comes to politics. Whereas Australians welcome any idea of being more close with America to the point where it is sickening.

Either way its not going to make much of a difference, USA doesnt really do much in that region anyways and they will always have Taiwan for a friend.
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 26 2011 03:51 GMT
#141
On June 26 2011 12:41 trucejl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote:
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.


Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other.

Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side.

Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least.

In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend.

China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW
seoul_kiM
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States545 Posts
June 26 2011 03:52 GMT
#142
You guys are all thinking that expansionism is a strict definition of taking territories by using armies. But it's not.
oGs.MC: Repair IMBAAAAAAAAAAa
trucejl
Profile Joined May 2010
120 Posts
June 26 2011 04:08 GMT
#143
On June 26 2011 12:51 thoradycus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 12:41 trucejl wrote:
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote:
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.


Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other.

Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side.

Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least.

In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend.

China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW


Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied?

vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country.

Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity.

Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia.
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
June 26 2011 04:09 GMT
#144
SK military might be leagues ahead of NK but there isn't a single country in the world which can make it stop raining metal. I doubt even the most advanced defensive systems can stop tonnes of metal falling from the sky.
neo_sporin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States516 Posts
June 26 2011 04:20 GMT
#145
So in one of my history classes way back when we were talking about the Cold War and nuclear deterrence. Essentially we learned the US has enough nuclear warheads to level the ENTIRE WORLD 3 times over, I would assume in the 7 years since that class that number has gone up.
While I think a normal gun war would always preempt a nuke fight, lets just be honest that if any governmental power (not terrorist organization) attacked the US or its allies, they would be putting themselves in a lot of danger. One reason that I am a big fan of Ron Paul is because he would (or at least I beleive he would) pull out all troops out of all regions. We got crap here to worry about rather than spending billions on other countries.

QUOTE]On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize[/QUOTE]

Yea, after WW1 whatever the equivolent of the UN (I forget the name, history not my strong point) really stopped Germany from re-militarizing. If Japan did anything in terms of building an army and not being agressive about it, the UN would write a strongly worded letter and then "sanction" Japan which would essentially mean they tell japan they disapprove. Nothing would happen to Japan...
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
June 26 2011 04:34 GMT
#146
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:37 Skee wrote:
What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean.

Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea.


Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's

Larger =/= Better
It's be like saying that 10 babies are able to beat up a full grown man because there are more of them.
Also, the babies are stuck with technology from the 70's.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
June 26 2011 04:35 GMT
#147
Can you clarify how much SK and Japan are paying (you say billions of dollars) for the U.S. to stay there? I took 2 classes, one that specifically focused on U.S. troops in Japan and SK, and both said basically that it's a major cost to the U.S., while it's saving SK and Japan millions/billions themselves (as if the U.S. wasn't there, they'd have to spend money on their own military which instead could be used for the economy, etc.)
dartoo
Profile Joined May 2010
India2889 Posts
June 26 2011 04:44 GMT
#148
On June 26 2011 13:08 trucejl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 12:51 thoradycus wrote:
On June 26 2011 12:41 trucejl wrote:
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote:
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.


Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other.

Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side.

Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least.

In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend.

China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW


Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied?

vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country.

Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity.

Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia.


You make it sound like India was the aggressor, the reason for the war was china demanding territores that are a part of the Indian union when chinese map makers suddenly printed certain parts of India as china. It still continues to demand them, and continues random aggression (even in kashmir). The reason why china gave them up was due to intense international pressure, not the good of heart by china. Relation up to that point were very cordial and the aggression by china was seen to be an act of betraying friendship.


Wrongspeedy
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1655 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 04:50:19
June 26 2011 04:49 GMT
#149
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


It would cost more money to move all of our stuff home. There is no reason our troops shouldn't be stationed where they are. Most of those bases were established decades ago (after WWII). Most importantly they give our army "mobility". We are more mobile than other countries simply because we have more troops stationed in more places, ready to defend. It has nothing to do with Imperialism. I'm pretty sure that Germany, Japan, and SK governments couldn't give a shit about us, but that doesn't mean they are offended to have our troops stationed in their country (helping their economy).
It is better to be a human dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied.- John Stuart Mill
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 04:52:11
June 26 2011 04:50 GMT
#150
On June 26 2011 13:20 neo_sporin wrote:
So in one of my history classes way back when we were talking about the Cold War and nuclear deterrence. Essentially we learned the US has enough nuclear warheads to level the ENTIRE WORLD 3 times over, I would assume in the 7 years since that class that number has gone up.
While I think a normal gun war would always preempt a nuke fight, lets just be honest that if any governmental power (not terrorist organization) attacked the US or its allies, they would be putting themselves in a lot of danger. One reason that I am a big fan of Ron Paul is because he would (or at least I beleive he would) pull out all troops out of all regions. We got crap here to worry about rather than spending billions on other countries.

Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


Yea, after WW1 whatever the equivolent of the UN (I forget the name, history not my strong point) really stopped Germany from re-militarizing. If Japan did anything in terms of building an army and not being agressive about it, the UN would write a strongly worded letter and then "sanction" Japan which would essentially mean they tell japan they disapprove. Nothing would happen to Japan...

Actually the nuclear weapon stockpiles of both the US and Russia have been reduced massively since the end of the cold war and they're still making new treaties to reduce it further.

And Japan's defence force is quite powerful, they've been steadily enlarging it for decades. America was the only country that was actually monitoring it in the first place and they've let it happen because they want another strong ally in the region.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
itkovian
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1763 Posts
June 26 2011 05:04 GMT
#151
On June 26 2011 02:09 decemberTV wrote:
This is why the US will pull out of Germany / Japan and South Korea.

[image loading]

atm the US is 14.000 billion in debt; 1.400 to china alone.
They have already begun to cut funds from NASA etc but very soon they will begin to cut funds from the army. There's no other option since the US citizens already have bad healthcare and other social services. There is nowhere to cut funds from anymore.



Looking at this just makes me sad. It begins to curb and level out again in the clinton era, but then... "gotcha!" and it starts spiking up again.

On topic, if the US pulled out then tension would definitely rise in the region. But if the US continued to back SK verbally, I don't think NK would take any kind of untoward action they wouldn't have taken anyway.
=)=
smokeyhoodoo
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1021 Posts
June 26 2011 05:13 GMT
#152
On June 26 2011 11:53 MotorDouglas wrote:
US don't want to nuke China because then they would have to deal with NK, Iran and Russia


Oh, right, that must be why. We're just itchin to nuke em otherwise. Lmao where does this shit come from?
There is no cow level
forgotten0ne
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States951 Posts
June 26 2011 05:19 GMT
#153
On June 26 2011 14:13 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 11:53 MotorDouglas wrote:
US don't want to nuke China because then they would have to deal with NK, Iran and Russia


Oh, right, that must be why. We're just itchin to nuke em otherwise. Lmao where does this shit come from?


Not to mention we're now pushing to dismantle all nuclear weaponry by 2030.

(Source: Economist 06/18/11)
"Well it’s obvious that these Terran gamers are just extremely gifted when it comes to RTS games" -Ret, in regards to the first months of SC2
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
June 26 2011 05:39 GMT
#154
On June 26 2011 13:44 dartoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 13:08 trucejl wrote:
On June 26 2011 12:51 thoradycus wrote:
On June 26 2011 12:41 trucejl wrote:
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote:
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.


Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other.

Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side.

Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least.

In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend.

China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW


Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied?

vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country.

Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity.

Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia.


You make it sound like India was the aggressor, the reason for the war was china demanding territores that are a part of the Indian union when chinese map makers suddenly printed certain parts of India as china. It still continues to demand them, and continues random aggression (even in kashmir). The reason why china gave them up was due to intense international pressure, not the good of heart by china. Relation up to that point were very cordial and the aggression by china was seen to be an act of betraying friendship.




And the fact that the PLA's strategic position was untenable, they've beaten the Indian army but it would be disastrous for them to cross into India proper. They were thousands miles far from Sichuan and when the winter sets it they would be cut off.

Implying that China is non-aggressive or non-expansionist based on some pseudo history is naive at best.

Have a look at the map of Imperial China from Song to present days and read up on Qian Long's 10 Great military deeds and tell me what is so special about the Chinese empire to say they are non-expansionist?

China will flex their muscle when they see fit and rightly so due to its strength and position in the global affairs.


Rillanon.au
Hinanawi
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2250 Posts
June 26 2011 05:44 GMT
#155
The idea that the majority of South Koreans want the U.S. military out of their country is pretty absurd. The U.S. enjoys the highest approval rating of any developed country in the world from South Korea (source: http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=map). They absolutely would never pass a vote to have the U.S. leave if one was put forward.

Also I've actually spoken to a lot of Japanese online (mostly in FFXIV or other games) about the U.S. presence there, and opinion is pretty divided. A lot say stuff like "Sometimes we get mad at them, but we don't want them to go away completely" and such. I would of course be in favor of having them vote whether they want the U.S. there or not, but to say that they all want the U.S. gone is just plain false.

Again, I think countries should just put it to a vote with their people, and the U.S. should abide by that decision. That would be ideal to me.
Favorite progamers (in order): Flash, Stork, Violet, Sea. ||| Get better soon, Violet!
Geefking
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia41 Posts
June 26 2011 05:51 GMT
#156
i think it might be milton freidman who argues this but i support it anyway that chinas growth is unsustainable as the country becomes increasinly developed and without their rapid growth the chinese goverment can and will quickly melt away and spilt into many different regions/goverments
Only Sheep Need A Sheppard "Voltaire"
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
June 26 2011 05:53 GMT
#157
lol@ people saying North Korea will take over Japan AND South Korea

Yeah guys those 200 1960s Russian MIGS with 15 hours of flight time will totally rape two countries

Totally.
dats racist
Willes
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany199 Posts
June 26 2011 05:54 GMT
#158
On June 26 2011 13:49 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


It would cost more money to move all of our stuff home. There is no reason our troops shouldn't be stationed where they are. Most of those bases were established decades ago (after WWII). Most importantly they give our army "mobility". We are more mobile than other countries simply because we have more troops stationed in more places, ready to defend. It has nothing to do with Imperialism. I'm pretty sure that Germany, Japan, and SK governments couldn't give a shit about us, but that doesn't mean they are offended to have our troops stationed in their country (helping their economy).



Do you learn this at your schools in the US? It has nothing to do with imperialism? Ok how about that, lets place troops from europe in the USA, to increase mobility if they need to defend your country. Lets say 50k-100k soldiers will be ok for the start.
We build bases all around the USA, there is no reason to not do this.
They will gain all the benefits you explained in your post, thats a good deal , huh?
"Your" eco needs alot of help, so our troups are welcome, soon you dont have money for this hudge military, we support "you" , of course.

It has nothing to do with imperialism, we jsut want to help your poor country, with a mobile, eco-helping force, sounds like a good deal for both sides, what do you think?

mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
June 26 2011 05:59 GMT
#159
I love how liker 90% of topics on Team Liquid turn into page after page of unrelated shit storms.

On topic, I think North Korea would feel a little more liberated to be aggressive towards Japan and might even invade (but that seems pretty far out). I don't see much of a difference for China.
Write your own song!
nihoh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia978 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 06:12:09
June 26 2011 06:11 GMT
#160
North Korea is a buffer state for China, to prevent non-Chinese (read: US and proxies) influence furthering upon the area. And while we're on topic, SK has no intention of re-unification other than from idealogical standpoints. If NK ever fell, the burden of reconstruction and development would be placed on SK, Japan, China and the US. China would be 1. saddled with North Korean refugees heading north of the Korean border, and 2. lose North Korea to a US ally, destabilising the area from the Chinese point of view and 3. cough up aid money for ex-North Korea. The only player in this game who doesn't have anything to lose from changes to the region, is North Korea.

From this, we can establish if the US ever pulled out of South Korea and Japan (unlikely as it is the last two places on Earth the US would pull out of [name another place the US would like to keep troops in, in terms of money spent and need]), China would do everything to keep the status quo going, funnily enough as it seems, either by preventing NK aggression or by forcing NK to slowly open up, either northwards or southwards. Now to the question... if NK decided to make a move southwards or eastwards to SK or Japan, a couple million of either South Koreans or Japanese will die within the space of a couple of hours. Then NK would get owned in the next week (by China or the US), with some form of government put back in place. A couple million of South Koreans and Japanese dead, but that's OK, cos the bomb would be defused. Then everything keeps running as usual with NK having either some sort of Chinese proxy government, or having some clown from the NK elite continue to lead it, on a short international leash, less sanctions, more aid, a little bit more opened up, no more nuclear weapons, and no-one blinks an eye (apart from some South Korean and Japnese people).
Dont look at the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
RJGooner
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2076 Posts
June 26 2011 06:16 GMT
#161
On June 26 2011 14:54 Willes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 13:49 Wrongspeedy wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


It would cost more money to move all of our stuff home. There is no reason our troops shouldn't be stationed where they are. Most of those bases were established decades ago (after WWII). Most importantly they give our army "mobility". We are more mobile than other countries simply because we have more troops stationed in more places, ready to defend. It has nothing to do with Imperialism. I'm pretty sure that Germany, Japan, and SK governments couldn't give a shit about us, but that doesn't mean they are offended to have our troops stationed in their country (helping their economy).



Do you learn this at your schools in the US? It has nothing to do with imperialism? Ok how about that, lets place troops from europe in the USA, to increase mobility if they need to defend your country. Lets say 50k-100k soldiers will be ok for the start.
We build bases all around the USA, there is no reason to not do this.
They will gain all the benefits you explained in your post, thats a good deal , huh?
"Your" eco needs alot of help, so our troups are welcome, soon you dont have money for this hudge military, we support "you" , of course.

It has nothing to do with imperialism, we jsut want to help your poor country, with a mobile, eco-helping force, sounds like a good deal for both sides, what do you think?



Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord.

And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense.
#1 Jaehoon Fan! 김재훈 화팅!
Willes
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany199 Posts
June 26 2011 06:20 GMT
#162
Wow you really believe in your propaganda.
Willes
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany199 Posts
June 26 2011 06:26 GMT
#163


Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord.

And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense.



- Imperialism, as defined by The Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." -

You can google stuff for yourself the next time you think you need to tell us something. ^^
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 26 2011 06:27 GMT
#164
On June 26 2011 15:16 RJGooner wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 14:54 Willes wrote:
On June 26 2011 13:49 Wrongspeedy wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


It would cost more money to move all of our stuff home. There is no reason our troops shouldn't be stationed where they are. Most of those bases were established decades ago (after WWII). Most importantly they give our army "mobility". We are more mobile than other countries simply because we have more troops stationed in more places, ready to defend. It has nothing to do with Imperialism. I'm pretty sure that Germany, Japan, and SK governments couldn't give a shit about us, but that doesn't mean they are offended to have our troops stationed in their country (helping their economy).



Do you learn this at your schools in the US? It has nothing to do with imperialism? Ok how about that, lets place troops from europe in the USA, to increase mobility if they need to defend your country. Lets say 50k-100k soldiers will be ok for the start.
We build bases all around the USA, there is no reason to not do this.
They will gain all the benefits you explained in your post, thats a good deal , huh?
"Your" eco needs alot of help, so our troups are welcome, soon you dont have money for this hudge military, we support "you" , of course.

It has nothing to do with imperialism, we jsut want to help your poor country, with a mobile, eco-helping force, sounds like a good deal for both sides, what do you think?



Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord.

And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense.

Just only, I was reading this article:http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2011/06/libya-europe-and-future-nato
RJGooner
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2076 Posts
June 26 2011 06:32 GMT
#165
On June 26 2011 15:26 Willes wrote:
Show nested quote +


Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord.

And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense.



- Imperialism, as defined by The Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." -

You can google stuff for yourself the next time you think you need to tell us something. ^^



Yes and do you think that having a mutual agreement to maintain troops on South Korean soil qualifies as "an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship"? Also, do you believe that the United States is "dominating or subordinating" SK or Japan? Seriously please take a minute to think about things before you post.
#1 Jaehoon Fan! 김재훈 화팅!
Eufouria
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom4425 Posts
June 26 2011 08:08 GMT
#166
On June 26 2011 15:16 RJGooner wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 14:54 Willes wrote:
On June 26 2011 13:49 Wrongspeedy wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:34 Voltaire wrote:
I think the US should definitely pull out of both South Korea and Japan, along with Germany and other places where there are unnecessary bases. There are things far more important than imperialism for the US to be spending its money on right now.


It would cost more money to move all of our stuff home. There is no reason our troops shouldn't be stationed where they are. Most of those bases were established decades ago (after WWII). Most importantly they give our army "mobility". We are more mobile than other countries simply because we have more troops stationed in more places, ready to defend. It has nothing to do with Imperialism. I'm pretty sure that Germany, Japan, and SK governments couldn't give a shit about us, but that doesn't mean they are offended to have our troops stationed in their country (helping their economy).



Do you learn this at your schools in the US? It has nothing to do with imperialism? Ok how about that, lets place troops from europe in the USA, to increase mobility if they need to defend your country. Lets say 50k-100k soldiers will be ok for the start.
We build bases all around the USA, there is no reason to not do this.
They will gain all the benefits you explained in your post, thats a good deal , huh?
"Your" eco needs alot of help, so our troups are welcome, soon you dont have money for this hudge military, we support "you" , of course.

It has nothing to do with imperialism, we jsut want to help your poor country, with a mobile, eco-helping force, sounds like a good deal for both sides, what do you think?



Do you even know what imperialism is? Good lord.

And there's absolutely no reason for any European country to have a base in the U.S considering we are basically Europe's defense against pretty much everything, so your analogy makes absolutely no sense.

My biggest fear for the future is that, when China and India overtake the US, my country is going to be lumped in with it as the enemy. The US has less friends than it thinks and while policing the world might make it feel safe, its making other countries in those regions uncomfortable. We constantly hear about this percieved threat from China, and China's no virgin I'm not saying that, but which of the two countries has been more agressive towards the other in the last decade?

I would be an advocate of distancing ourselves from America, if we didn't have all of our Nuclear arms tied up under US control. When the world changes the least we could do is not be seen as America's whipping boy.

I don't know where we even got the idea that we needed to compete with the big boys in the world. We're on a shitty island, outside of our international relayions, what reason would somebody have for trying to invade us? I'd like my country to take a leaf out of Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland's book and realise that we actually have almost nothing of value to any country.
Ocedic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1808 Posts
June 26 2011 08:13 GMT
#167

On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


They have the JSDF, and according to Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, the army must only be strong enough to act in self defense. However, there has been controversy over what that entails exactly. And in Iraq, Japan sent troops at the request of the US, which was the first time since WW2 Japan had deployed troops abroad.

So basically, yes technically they aren't allowed to have a 'real' army, but in practice there is leeway around that. The only thing that is clear is that Japan definitely cannot possess nuclear arms.

Anyways I watched too much Ghost in the Shell.
raviy
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia207 Posts
June 26 2011 08:34 GMT
#168
On June 26 2011 17:13 Ocedic wrote:

Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:56 Klipsys wrote:
On June 26 2011 01:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
If the US ever left SK and Japan, both SK and Japan would start enlarging their navies and there would be a naval arms race between them and China. That would be the biggest political change from the US leaving, Japan returning to its status as a premier naval power in the Pacific.



What the....

You know that japan hasn't had a standing army since WW2, and it's a violation of UN resolutions if they re-militarize


They have the JSDF, and according to Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, the army must only be strong enough to act in self defense. However, there has been controversy over what that entails exactly. And in Iraq, Japan sent troops at the request of the US, which was the first time since WW2 Japan had deployed troops abroad.

So basically, yes technically they aren't allowed to have a 'real' army, but in practice there is leeway around that. The only thing that is clear is that Japan definitely cannot possess nuclear arms.

Anyways I watched too much Ghost in the Shell.


This.

Also, whenever any country invades another country, it's always for their "defense". The British eradicated the American Indian tribes in the defense of their settlers, the French in Indochina, the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan in the defense of their country, Japan invaded Korea and China in the defense of their economic interests. No country with any political sense will attack another country and declare it as expansionism. They always find a way to call it the defense of their country, so this restriction on Japan may as well be non-existent.
Perseverance
Profile Joined February 2010
Japan2800 Posts
June 26 2011 08:41 GMT
#169
I really think we could pull out. We can't afford to have so many troops occupying other countries o.o
<3 Moonbattles
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11540 Posts
June 26 2011 09:35 GMT
#170
On June 26 2011 13:08 trucejl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 12:51 thoradycus wrote:
On June 26 2011 12:41 trucejl wrote:
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote:
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.


Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other.

Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side.

Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least.

In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend.

China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW


Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied?

vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country.

Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity.

Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia.


I don't know about china, and whether or not they are aggressive. I just wanted to say that with the same arguments one could claim that Nazi Germany was not aggressive expansionistic until the start of WW2. They were just "reclaiming disputed territory". Nearly no country will invade something and then say "Ha, its our now". They always make something up about how that territory was justily theirs all the time, and the others stole it before, and they are just taking it back.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 15:01:26
June 26 2011 14:55 GMT
#171
On June 26 2011 14:39 haduken wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 13:44 dartoo wrote:
On June 26 2011 13:08 trucejl wrote:
On June 26 2011 12:51 thoradycus wrote:
On June 26 2011 12:41 trucejl wrote:
On June 26 2011 11:36 white_horse wrote:
Believing that China is a peaceful, non-aggressive, non-expansionist state is probably the biggest fantasy that someone could have about current world politics.


Expansionist? What territory has China annexed since the establishment of PROC? Tibet cannot be considered a aggressive or expansionist movement since its basically a internal issue that USA wants to poke its nose in. The south china sea issue has been disputed for a long time now, its hardly anything new. Last I check they haven't fire a shot at any of the southern asia countries, just a bunch of old asian man bitching at each other.

Compared to the USA track record recently, what china is doing is laughable. Current world politics is basically either pro-USA or pro-China. The neutral countries are either in a pile of shit themselves or completely irrelevant on the world scene. Too many people here in the USA needs to find out information from both sides instead of reading news propaganda from only one side.

Didn't the Japanese premier/president get a lot of heat recently for failing to hold up his promise regarding moving the Okinawa base? Seems like a clear example of a portion of the Japanese people wanting the base removed or relocated at least.

In the end, until the Japanese people or Korean people come together as a whole and demand the USA to leave, those base will always be there. The cost will not matter based on the current track records of US spending. Even in a huge debt crisis, the government continues to pursue multiple military operation around the world. No matter the believe from either side, money is being spend and it will continue to be spend.

China has conducted offensives towards India and Vietnam in the CW


Indian was a result of disputed territories that existed even today. Did you know that after China dismantled India's force, it pulled back and didn't take any of the indian territories it could have occupied?

vietnam was a result of the vietnam war in which it helped the communist side since the world at that time was communist vs non communist. Hardly expansionist since the goal was not to gain those territory but to help its communist ally gain control of the country.

Neither conflict were geared toward gaining any sort of territory. Vietnam was a case of alliance help and India was a case of defend China's own territorial integrity.

Expansionism at its core means gaining more territory. Another definition may be something like economical influence or other types of Sphere of influence. IMO the argument against china mainly is preventing it from annexing some parts of asia.


You make it sound like India was the aggressor, the reason for the war was china demanding territores that are a part of the Indian union when chinese map makers suddenly printed certain parts of India as china. It still continues to demand them, and continues random aggression (even in kashmir). The reason why china gave them up was due to intense international pressure, not the good of heart by china. Relation up to that point were very cordial and the aggression by china was seen to be an act of betraying friendship.




And the fact that the PLA's strategic position was untenable, they've beaten the Indian army but it would be disastrous for them to cross into India proper. They were thousands miles far from Sichuan and when the winter sets it they would be cut off.

Implying that China is non-aggressive or non-expansionist based on some pseudo history is naive at best.

Have a look at the map of Imperial China from Song to present days and read up on Qian Long's 10 Great military deeds and tell me what is so special about the Chinese empire to say they are non-expansionist?

China will flex their muscle when they see fit and rightly so due to its strength and position in the global affairs.




Perhaps it isn't really sensible to use ancient history to define a country's foreign policy today. Too many unaccounted for differences in context. By your argument, England is the most expansionist country in history and should be watched carefully lest they resurrect the empire on which the sun never sets.
Ciryandor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3735 Posts
June 26 2011 16:19 GMT
#172
I am sincerely in disbelief over the lack of realization of realpolitik that people have over the presence of the United States in foreign countries; yet I realize the entanglements that do come along with it. Most benefits that come with the presence that is embodied in military bases, logistics stockpiles in the form of pre-positioned warehouses of military hardware and ships and planes at points outside CONUS are not tangible in most ways, and are mostly of indirect benefit, thus the view that these commitments are monetary sinkholes, when in actuality, maintenance on these bases constitute a relatively lower share of the military budget than R&D for multiple, long-term programs and projects.
에일리 and 아이유 <3 - O Captain 박재혁 ・゚✧*:・*゚+..。✧・゚:*・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚* ゜・*:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING ・゜・:・゚✧*:・゚✧。*゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:*・゜・:・゚✧*::
trucejl
Profile Joined May 2010
120 Posts
June 26 2011 17:25 GMT
#173
Ask yourselves this question. Is China any more aggressive/expansionist than other powerful countries? Especially those with border dispute with its neighbors?
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-26 19:28:35
June 26 2011 19:27 GMT
#174
On June 27 2011 02:25 trucejl wrote:
Ask yourselves this question. Is China any more aggressive/expansionist than other powerful countries? Especially those with border dispute with its neighbors?


There hasn't really been much of an expansionist war in the last few decades. So no country has actually engaged in that kind of behaviour.

All the ones i can think of have been a few decades ago and on a very small scale.

But i think since they took over Tibet that does put them pretty high on the list simply due to lack of competition.
BlackOmega
Profile Joined August 2010
United States26 Posts
June 27 2011 02:25 GMT
#175
Hmm..let's see. China has fought India over some disputed territory (1962) and has recently been building up in that region again. Has fought the old Soviet Union over disputed territory(1969). Invaded Vietnam in 1979. Invaded Tibet (1950). I can see why nations would be nervous. I don't think China is going to invade anyone anytime soon. But they seem willing to aggressively use their military and economic power to intimidate their neighbors. Standard power politics and consistent with Chinese foreign policy since well before the start of the 20th century.

North Korea is mostly a threat because of their WMD. Their soldiers are poorly trained and fed and most of their tanks date back to the 1950s. South Korea's army is well trained ahd has modern equipment. NK could still inflict tragic casualties in the opening stages of a war with their artillery, but that would not win them a war.
Xpace
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2209 Posts
June 27 2011 02:34 GMT
#176
Without America, North Korea would plow through South Korea within a week. Every Korean knows this.
k-lob
Profile Joined June 2011
United States9 Posts
June 28 2011 03:33 GMT
#177
As a Canadian reading this title, my immediate thought was "What is the U.S doing in Saskatchewan?"
MozzarellaL
Profile Joined November 2010
United States822 Posts
June 28 2011 03:43 GMT
#178
China is buying up loads of raw materials from South American and African countries, to begin developing their own carrier fleet to compete with Russia's and the United States'.

You can bet there's going to be an arms race in the near future.

On June 27 2011 11:34 Xpace wrote:
Without America, North Korea would plow through South Korea within a week. Every Korean knows this.

Is that why there's a pretty large political party in SK that advocates strengthening ties with NK towards reconciliation and removing US military bases from the country? If North Korea tried to invade South Korea they would advance at most a few hundred miles, and then immediately collapse under the weight of their own infrastructure, or rather, lack thereof. China will not assist NK in this day and age. If they would, NK would have already invaded.
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-28 03:51:19
June 28 2011 03:49 GMT
#179
On June 26 2011 01:40 Crisco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 01:37 Skee wrote:
What do you mean fall under China's influence? Neither South Korea, Japan or China rely on eachother or any other asian country economically speaking and no, China is not going to go to war with them.... So I am having a problem understanding what you mean.

Like the above poster said, the most important reason for troops in South Korea is for the imminent fall of North Korea in the next 50 years. And even then, military-wise South Korea is pretty well off compared to North Korea.


Actually NK's army is vastly larger than SK's

Actually, SK's Navy and Air Force is not only larger, but far more advanced than NK. NK just has more foot soldiers... which, would mean something say 50 years ago, but no.

The thing is, South Korea would probably 'win' in a war with the North, but at what cost? That's why they don't want to fight them, not because "north korea would plow through south korea" as another poster so eloquently put it.
MKP||TSL
obbob
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada72 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 06:46:22
June 29 2011 06:45 GMT
#180
The thing about NK vs SK is, we're not too sure of SK's ability to defend Nukes.

If they have the ability to neutralize all the nukes, then SK should be able to defend against NK.

If not, well, SK could have functional Gundam mech's but Nukes tend to be pretty helpful in winning a war...
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
June 29 2011 07:47 GMT
#181
On June 26 2011 15:20 Willes wrote:
Wow you really believe in your propaganda.

And what do you believe in? There is mutual agreement between Germany and the USA over the US army bases, so what's your point?
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
June 29 2011 08:48 GMT
#182
On June 29 2011 16:47 Maenander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2011 15:20 Willes wrote:
Wow you really believe in your propaganda.

And what do you believe in? There is mutual agreement between Germany and the USA over the US army bases, so what's your point?

a lot of people keeps forgetting that
MoonfireSpam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1153 Posts
June 29 2011 09:15 GMT
#183
On June 27 2011 04:27 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2011 02:25 trucejl wrote:
Ask yourselves this question. Is China any more aggressive/expansionist than other powerful countries? Especially those with border dispute with its neighbors?


There hasn't really been much of an expansionist war in the last few decades. So no country has actually engaged in that kind of behaviour.

All the ones i can think of have been a few decades ago and on a very small scale.

But i think since they took over Tibet that does put them pretty high on the list simply due to lack of competition.


Israel? Although they're a bit more subtile about it.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
June 29 2011 09:24 GMT
#184
Chinese people are farmers, remember that. We don't want to conquest.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 51m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 142
Nathanias 140
ProTech99
JuggernautJason74
StarCraft: Brood War
ajuk12(nOOB) 20
NaDa 14
Beast 3
Dota 2
monkeys_forever317
Pyrionflax240
capcasts181
League of Legends
Reynor75
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K579
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu482
Other Games
Grubby2504
FrodaN784
C9.Mang0194
ToD153
ZombieGrub119
Trikslyr38
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 27
Other Games
BasetradeTV21
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 68
• musti20045 14
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 4
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21780
• Noizen36
League of Legends
• Doublelift3116
• TFBlade218
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie954
Other Games
• Shiphtur153
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 51m
The PondCast
12h 51m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
13h 51m
herO vs MaxPax
Clem vs Classic
Replay Cast
1d 2h
LiuLi Cup
1d 13h
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Cure vs Rogue
Classic vs HeRoMaRinE
Cosmonarchy
1d 18h
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
Big Brain Bouts
1d 18h
Iba vs GgMaChine
TriGGeR vs Bunny
Reynor vs Classic
Serral vs Clem
BSL Team Wars
1d 21h
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
1d 21h
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
SC Evo League
2 days
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
[ Show More ]
Maestros of the Game
2 days
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[BSL 2025] Weekly
2 days
SC Evo League
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
3 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
3 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 3
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
Acropolis #4 - TS1
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.