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Brainteaser for TeamLiquid! - Page 19

Forum Index > General Forum
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chocorush
Profile Joined June 2009
696 Posts
June 10 2011 17:07 GMT
#361
The unedited OP didn't say "other game as well". It just said "other game". The poll itself STILL says "other game". People are going to continue to say 1/3 because, regardless of the explanation at the beginning, the poll itself still asking the probability of drawing Zerg in a single game.


Adding "as well" doesn't change the fact that "other game" isn't in reference to a specific game. It can be either the first game, or the second game, and your probability should reflect this.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
June 10 2011 17:07 GMT
#362
On June 11 2011 00:41 iStarKraft wrote:
...since we know that one of the games was zerg, all we need to do is find the probability that the other game was zerg. This gets affected in no way by the game we KNOW was zerg. Therefore, there are three possibilities for the 'other' game played:

He played as zerg.
He played as terran.
He played as protoss.

Zerg will occur 1/3 of the time. Therefore the answer is 1/3. There is absolutely no purpose to writing out the different combinations of games (ZZ PP TT PT TP... etc.), as we only need to find the probability he played one game as zerg, since we already know one of his games was zerg.

I will happily respond to any counter-arguments, but I would most likely be rewording / repeating myself. (^_^)

iSK

LOL this thread is hopeless, my friends. Even after countless explanations people are still wrong and not reading other posts to see why. I guess the three categorizations are accurate.

Please try to understand the difference between "the probability of having gotten Zerg in both games given Zerg in at least one" and "the probability of getting Zerg in a game." The OP's wordings are more than clear enough to make this distinction. The latter is 1/3 (no shit), the former 1/5. Good God
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2338 Posts
June 10 2011 17:11 GMT
#363
Here's an easier way to understand the problem. Say I flip two coins, we can all agree that the possible outcomes are:

H-T 1/4
H-H 1/4
T-T 1/4
T-H 1/4

Now I tell you that if, and only if, a heads comes up, if the other coin is tails, I win. If the other coin is heads, you win. Simply making this proposition does not change the probability of each result coming up.

H-T I win
H-H I lose
T-T Draw
T-H I win

We already know each of the outcomes has an equal chance of occuring, so in 2/4 results, I win, 1/4 you win. Therefore the odds are 2:1, or 2/3 in my favour, and 1/3 in yours. NOT 1/2.
blankspace
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States292 Posts
June 10 2011 17:13 GMT
#364
come on guys it's not 1/3
Hello friends
Cyba
Profile Joined June 2010
Romania221 Posts
June 10 2011 17:21 GMT
#365
On June 11 2011 02:11 foxmeep wrote:
Here's an easier way to understand the problem. Say I flip two coins, we can all agree that the possible outcomes are:

H-T 1/4
H-H 1/4
T-T 1/4
T-H 1/4

Now I tell you that if, and only if, a heads comes up, if the other coin is tails, I win. If the other coin is heads, you win. Simply making this proposition does not change the probability of each result coming up.

H-T I win
H-H I lose
T-T Draw
T-H I win

We already know each of the outcomes has an equal chance of occuring, so in 2/4 results, I win, 1/4 you win. Therefore the odds are 2:1, or 2/3 in my favour, and 1/3 in yours. NOT 1/2.


That's because you represent the problem differently, the question is what are the odds for TT to drop if we flip it twice in a row. It's only understandable in the way you say it because the OP was a bit bad ;p
I'm not evil, I'm just good lookin
cluedo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom25 Posts
June 10 2011 17:25 GMT
#366
The problem is mainly in how badly the question is worded.
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2338 Posts
June 10 2011 17:27 GMT
#367
On June 11 2011 02:21 Cyba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2011 02:11 foxmeep wrote:
Here's an easier way to understand the problem. Say I flip two coins, we can all agree that the possible outcomes are:

H-T 1/4
H-H 1/4
T-T 1/4
T-H 1/4

Now I tell you that if, and only if, a heads comes up, if the other coin is tails, I win. If the other coin is heads, you win. Simply making this proposition does not change the probability of each result coming up.

H-T I win
H-H I lose
T-T Draw
T-H I win

We already know each of the outcomes has an equal chance of occuring, so in 2/4 results, I win, 1/4 you win. Therefore the odds are 2:1, or 2/3 in my favour, and 1/3 in yours. NOT 1/2.


That's because you represent the problem differently, the question is what are the odds for TT to drop if we flip it twice in a row. It's only understandable in the way you say it because the OP was a bit bad ;p


Incorrect. I represent the problem identical to the OP. If heads comes up, what are the chances that the other coin is heads. If I random Zerg in one game, what are the chances that I random Zerg the other game.
TSM
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Great Britain584 Posts
June 10 2011 17:27 GMT
#368
so your friend says, basically at least 1 of the games was ZvZ so the next game has a 1/3 chance of being zerg again, surely? so if definitely not 1/3?

aah i get it it might not be the first game was a ZVZ so then it will be 1/5. nice-kind-0f-a teaser
The person to smile when everything goes wrong has found someone to blame it on - arthur bloch **** tl:dr *user was banned for this post*
DisneylandSC
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands435 Posts
June 10 2011 17:27 GMT
#369
Z = Zerg Probability = 1/3
N = Not zerg Probability = 2/3

We know 1 match is zerg so the possibilities left are ZN, NZ, ZZ which happen with probability (2/3)*(1/3) = (2/9), again 2/9 and (1/3)*(1/3) = (1/9). Normalizing so that they sum up to 1 we need to multiply with a factor (1/(5/9)) = 9/5. Hence the probability is (1/9)*(9/5)=1/5.

Did I win the washer?
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
June 10 2011 17:40 GMT
#370
It's nice. I had to think about it, since i would say 1/3 at first too.
JKira
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada1002 Posts
June 10 2011 17:49 GMT
#371
I learned conditional probability in grade 11, and I don't even think that's early or anything. I was 16 at the time.

Are the majority of people on TL really under 16 years old? I was under the impression that the majority is over 20 years old.
SolC361
Profile Joined July 2010
United States184 Posts
June 10 2011 17:59 GMT
#372
On June 11 2011 02:49 JKira wrote:
I learned conditional probability in grade 11, and I don't even think that's early or anything. I was 16 at the time.

Are the majority of people on TL really under 16 years old? I was under the impression that the majority is over 20 years old.
Condescending much? Even the great mathematician Erdos initially got the Monty Hall problem wrong, which is considered a basic conditional probability problem. And most of the fuss is over the wording ambiguity of the problem, not the problem solving itself.
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
June 10 2011 17:59 GMT
#373
i read the solution, then voted 1/3. youre making the mistake of counting ZT and TZ as two seperate cases, when they are actually exactly the same, given that ordering doesnt matter.
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
June 10 2011 18:00 GMT
#374
OP, In your solution, you claim that there are 5 possible games, ZZ, ZP, ZT, PZ, TZ. This is nonsense, because ZvT is the same as TvZ; meaning you count two of the matchups twice for no reason.

Its 1/3.
Who called in the fleet?
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
June 10 2011 18:01 GMT
#375
Given at least one game was zerg, what's probability that other game was zerg?

Look at all permutations

ZZ
ZT
TZ
PZ
ZP

1/5
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
June 10 2011 18:02 GMT
#376
On June 11 2011 03:00 Millitron wrote:
OP, In your solution, you claim that there are 5 possible games, ZZ, ZP, ZT, PZ, TZ. This is nonsense, because ZvT is the same as TvZ; meaning you count two of the matchups twice for no reason.

Its 1/3.


ZvT is same as TvZ, but playing Z and then playing T is not the same as playing T and then playing Z.

Though realistically

1) Why did you create this thread? Obvious flame... but yes, the answer is technically 1/5.

2) Realistically the answer is close to 1 since most people who play zerg just play zerg every game
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
June 10 2011 18:02 GMT
#377
On June 11 2011 02:11 foxmeep wrote:
Here's an easier way to understand the problem. Say I flip two coins, we can all agree that the possible outcomes are:

H-T 1/4
H-H 1/4
T-T 1/4
T-H 1/4

Now I tell you that if, and only if, a heads comes up, if the other coin is tails, I win. If the other coin is heads, you win. Simply making this proposition does not change the probability of each result coming up.

H-T I win
H-H I lose
T-T Draw
T-H I win

We already know each of the outcomes has an equal chance of occuring, so in 2/4 results, I win, 1/4 you win. Therefore the odds are 2:1, or 2/3 in my favour, and 1/3 in yours. NOT 1/2.

no, because you are making ordering a necessaity in this. the OP's problem does not take ordering into account.
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
June 10 2011 18:03 GMT
#378
On June 11 2011 02:59 L3g3nd_ wrote:
i read the solution, then voted 1/3. youre making the mistake of counting ZT and TZ as two seperate cases, when they are actually exactly the same, given that ordering doesnt matter.


It technically doesn't matter but ZT (or ZT/TZ) is twice as likely as ZZ, so it does matter in a sense.

Alternatively you could look at it as

ZZ
ZT x2
ZP x2
venomium
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands245 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-10 18:13:25
June 10 2011 18:12 GMT
#379
Because English isn't my first language; I had to reread the statement twice.
That the chance 'me being zerg in a game' is a lot bigger than 'me being zerg in a game, one game prior or one game after being zerg in an other game' is obvious; but with the whole story with it you certainly "teased my brain" :D
Very nice!

On the other hand; I haven't been drinking that much the first days after graduating because I wanted to remember all that stuff ^^


Edit: Now I'm ******** up the wording... Stupid English language
" I think we finally found the magic number of guns needed to be pointed at the TL hive mind to deter sexual molestation (9)" -Coagulation
JKira
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada1002 Posts
June 10 2011 18:13 GMT
#380
On June 11 2011 02:59 SolC361 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2011 02:49 JKira wrote:
I learned conditional probability in grade 11, and I don't even think that's early or anything. I was 16 at the time.

Are the majority of people on TL really under 16 years old? I was under the impression that the majority is over 20 years old.
Condescending much? Even the great mathematician Erdos initially got the Monty Hall problem wrong, which is considered a basic conditional probability problem. And most of the fuss is over the wording ambiguity of the problem, not the problem solving itself.


Sorry if I came off that way. I was genuinely surprised at the amount of people saying it's 1/3. I see nothing wrong with the wording of the problem now but I didn't read it pre-edit.
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