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On October 25 2011 10:12 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 10:04 Kingsp4de20 wrote: How people are against this law is beyond me, why would you want your tax dollar going to support someone who obviously isnt going to do anything productive with it... what about using welfare as a means of survival to get off drugs..?
good idea in theory...If it actually happened that way then sure, but in most cases it doesn't.
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skid rowe coming to a city near you.
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i think they should, if your wasting money on drugs and wanting welfare something is wrong.
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On October 25 2011 10:33 Kingsp4de20 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 10:20 Timerly wrote:On October 25 2011 10:04 Kingsp4de20 wrote: How people are against this law is beyond me, why would you want your tax dollar going to support someone who obviously isnt going to do anything productive with it... Maybe because people are addicted but would still like to eat? Do you value the (actually rather small) part of you income that goes to taxes covering welfare expenses higher than somebody else in the same, rich country not starving? It's not like it would be easy for an addict to get a job or get off the stuff just like that. I've worked with addicts. They have a really tough time getting a leg up as nobody will hire them, getting off the stuff without proper therapy (which they can't pay for and isn't covered) is close to impossible with some drugs (looking at you, meth and crack) and they end up doing anything, legal or illegal, to somehow cover their drug expenses before any other concern. That's how addiction works. Now take away their welfare and they'll just end up much deeper in the hole they're already in, doing more crazy illegal stuff as legal ways to obtain money are scarce for them. You'd end up with more robberies, more theft, just generally more crime which would probably cost more in the long term. We're talking prison expenses, extra police force and still higher overall crime rates for very low income parts of the society. It doesn't make it better to withhold basic coverage. With welfare people have a tiny bit of an option to get out of it, without it their status will be cemented. If they cant pay for the drugs how are they going to do them...want to eat don't do drugs. I would rather "the rather small part of my income" go towards someone who isn't and addict or criminal and legitimatly fell on hard times and needs a hand up....
Except the rather small part will be bigger if you introduce a law like that. You'd also just be moving the benefit over to those who have much less of a problem, at least in comparison to addicts. The proposed test also can't provide a good view on possible alcoholism, how do you want to test that? It's much harder to prove, so now alcoholics are better people than crack addicts although they spend the same amount of money on their drug? It's really far from fair, hits the ones at the bottom and doesn't allow for any real option. Remember, addicts spend their money first and foremost on their fix. They will take care of their addiction, then buy food, THEN buy extra drugs from any extra money in relly bad cases. It will be harder to afford food. It will force crime. There have been numerous advances in that direction in many countries, in most it's found to be problematic from consitutional or human rights point of views in addition to the horrible cost effectiveness. The US have had a war on drugs for ages, yet their drug problems are so much bigger than in e. g. the Netherlands (where weed is legal!). You don't fix a national drug problem by prosecuting or banning or withholding money. You fix it by providing basic social standing to those close to the lower end of the society. You could imo make an argument for people having to do the test IF there was free therapy offered to drug addicts. However, you can't force the success of a measure by making it the only option when it really isn't (as money gets there somehow, some way, even if it's a couple coins stolen from your local church).
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Alcohol is sold by legitimate companies rather than drug dealers who get weak people addicted to deadly and illegal drugs.
Sales taxes give money back to the government too. I'd rather give my money to an alcoholic than a heroin addict.
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On October 25 2011 10:46 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 10:33 Kingsp4de20 wrote:On October 25 2011 10:20 Timerly wrote:On October 25 2011 10:04 Kingsp4de20 wrote: How people are against this law is beyond me, why would you want your tax dollar going to support someone who obviously isnt going to do anything productive with it... Maybe because people are addicted but would still like to eat? Do you value the (actually rather small) part of you income that goes to taxes covering welfare expenses higher than somebody else in the same, rich country not starving? It's not like it would be easy for an addict to get a job or get off the stuff just like that. I've worked with addicts. They have a really tough time getting a leg up as nobody will hire them, getting off the stuff without proper therapy (which they can't pay for and isn't covered) is close to impossible with some drugs (looking at you, meth and crack) and they end up doing anything, legal or illegal, to somehow cover their drug expenses before any other concern. That's how addiction works. Now take away their welfare and they'll just end up much deeper in the hole they're already in, doing more crazy illegal stuff as legal ways to obtain money are scarce for them. You'd end up with more robberies, more theft, just generally more crime which would probably cost more in the long term. We're talking prison expenses, extra police force and still higher overall crime rates for very low income parts of the society. It doesn't make it better to withhold basic coverage. With welfare people have a tiny bit of an option to get out of it, without it their status will be cemented. If they cant pay for the drugs how are they going to do them...want to eat don't do drugs. I would rather "the rather small part of my income" go towards someone who isn't and addict or criminal and legitimatly fell on hard times and needs a hand up.... Except the rather small part will be bigger if you introduce a law like that. You'd also just be moving the benefit over to those who have much less of a problem, at least in comparison to addicts. The proposed test also can't provide a good view on possible alcoholism, how do you want to test that? It's much harder to prove, so now alcoholics are better people than crack addicts although they spend the same amount of money on their drug? It's really far from fair, hits the ones at the bottom and doesn't allow for any real option. Remember, addicts spend their money first and foremost on their fix. They will take care of their addiction, then buy food, THEN buy extra drugs from any extra money in relly bad cases. It will be harder to afford food. It will force crime. There have been numerous advances in that direction in many countries, in most it's found to be problematic from consitutional or human rights point of views in addition to the horrible cost effectiveness. The US have had a war on drugs for ages, yet their drug problems are so much bigger than in e. g. the Netherlands (where weed is legal!). You don't fix a national drug problem by prosecuting or banning or withholding money. You fix it by providing basic social standing to those close to the lower end of the society. You could imo make an argument for people having to do the test IF there was free therapy offered to drug addicts. However, you can't force the success of a measure by making it the only option when it really isn't (as money gets there somehow, some way, even if it's a couple coins stolen from your local church).
So we continue to support people who dug themselves a hole so deep they can no longer see the sun and then cemented over it? Ridiculous.
Personal accountability must come into account at some point. At some time you have to say enough is enough and stop allowing trash to continue to live the way they do.
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On October 25 2011 10:55 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 10:46 Timerly wrote:On October 25 2011 10:33 Kingsp4de20 wrote:On October 25 2011 10:20 Timerly wrote:On October 25 2011 10:04 Kingsp4de20 wrote: How people are against this law is beyond me, why would you want your tax dollar going to support someone who obviously isnt going to do anything productive with it... Maybe because people are addicted but would still like to eat? Do you value the (actually rather small) part of you income that goes to taxes covering welfare expenses higher than somebody else in the same, rich country not starving? It's not like it would be easy for an addict to get a job or get off the stuff just like that. I've worked with addicts. They have a really tough time getting a leg up as nobody will hire them, getting off the stuff without proper therapy (which they can't pay for and isn't covered) is close to impossible with some drugs (looking at you, meth and crack) and they end up doing anything, legal or illegal, to somehow cover their drug expenses before any other concern. That's how addiction works. Now take away their welfare and they'll just end up much deeper in the hole they're already in, doing more crazy illegal stuff as legal ways to obtain money are scarce for them. You'd end up with more robberies, more theft, just generally more crime which would probably cost more in the long term. We're talking prison expenses, extra police force and still higher overall crime rates for very low income parts of the society. It doesn't make it better to withhold basic coverage. With welfare people have a tiny bit of an option to get out of it, without it their status will be cemented. If they cant pay for the drugs how are they going to do them...want to eat don't do drugs. I would rather "the rather small part of my income" go towards someone who isn't and addict or criminal and legitimatly fell on hard times and needs a hand up.... Except the rather small part will be bigger if you introduce a law like that. You'd also just be moving the benefit over to those who have much less of a problem, at least in comparison to addicts. The proposed test also can't provide a good view on possible alcoholism, how do you want to test that? It's much harder to prove, so now alcoholics are better people than crack addicts although they spend the same amount of money on their drug? It's really far from fair, hits the ones at the bottom and doesn't allow for any real option. Remember, addicts spend their money first and foremost on their fix. They will take care of their addiction, then buy food, THEN buy extra drugs from any extra money in relly bad cases. It will be harder to afford food. It will force crime. There have been numerous advances in that direction in many countries, in most it's found to be problematic from consitutional or human rights point of views in addition to the horrible cost effectiveness. The US have had a war on drugs for ages, yet their drug problems are so much bigger than in e. g. the Netherlands (where weed is legal!). You don't fix a national drug problem by prosecuting or banning or withholding money. You fix it by providing basic social standing to those close to the lower end of the society. You could imo make an argument for people having to do the test IF there was free therapy offered to drug addicts. However, you can't force the success of a measure by making it the only option when it really isn't (as money gets there somehow, some way, even if it's a couple coins stolen from your local church). So we continue to support people who dug themselves a hole so deep they can no longer see the sun and then cemented over it? Ridiculous. Personal accountability must come into account at some point. At some time you have to say enough is enough and stop allowing trash to continue to live the way they do.
Yup because that has been working so well for your country...
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Honestly, we wouldn't even have this problem if welfare was done away with as a whole.
I completely understand that some people use it temporarily as a 'crutch' of some sort but the amount of abusers, or even the idea of having any abusers at all is enough to not use it. Especially when America is in the debt situation that it's in right now.
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There are a ton of leeches in the system, so I don't mind this in the least, provided it isn't too much of a bother for those involved (I REALLY doubt it is).
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On October 25 2011 11:30 Xarow wrote: Honestly, we wouldn't even have this problem if welfare was done away with as a whole.
I completely understand that some people use it temporarily as a 'crutch' of some sort but the amount of abusers, or even the idea of having any abusers at all is enough to not use it. Especially when America is in the debt situation that it's in right now. doesn't social security have something like a trillion dollar surplus? or am i thinking of something else?
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On October 25 2011 11:37 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 11:30 Xarow wrote: Honestly, we wouldn't even have this problem if welfare was done away with as a whole.
I completely understand that some people use it temporarily as a 'crutch' of some sort but the amount of abusers, or even the idea of having any abusers at all is enough to not use it. Especially when America is in the debt situation that it's in right now. doesn't social security have something like a trillion dollar surplus? or am i thinking of something else?
lol social security is broken, definitely no surplus there......
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On June 10 2011 04:27 Kamuy wrote: I'm sorry, whats wrong with this? You stick your hand out asking me for money, I want some assurance its not going to be injected into your arm or smoked. Beggar's can't be choosers.
This x 100.
I can almost assure that it feels insulting for those who are collecting welfare on the basis of hardships in their life but unfortunately there is not really much other way to weed out people who are fueling drug addictions off tax-payers.
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So if I'm on welfare in florida, and I spend $0 on drugs, but have friends who smoke me up at a party, I lose welfare even though I never spent any money on drugs.
This is a case where you're trying punish people in a wrong and stupid way and it won't work. Also, cutting welfare doesn't help anyone, states pay a lot more money for dumb bullshit like freebies for the politicians and inside deals. When are we going to cut those out?
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On October 25 2011 14:23 darkscream wrote: So if I'm on welfare in florida, and I spend $0 on drugs, but have friends who smoke me up at a party, I lose welfare even though I never spent any money on drugs.
This is a case where you're trying punish people in a wrong and stupid way and it won't work. Also, cutting welfare doesn't help anyone, states pay a lot more money for dumb bullshit like freebies for the politicians and inside deals. When are we going to cut those out?
Maybe you shouldn't let your "friends smoke you up at a party" then? What kind of fucked up scenario is that? "Sorry Mr Welfare officer, I went to a party with free drugs being thrown at me, I'm really not squandering welfare $ on them!"
Also, maybe if the person in the said scenario wasn't smoking / snorting / injecting hed be able to hold a job?
As to dumb bullshit freebies, its hardly the topic here is it? Every time the govt wants legitimately save money in one area someone has to step in and bitch that its being wasted somewhere else. How is that productive at all? Do you expect them to stop this initiative and focus only on on "dumb bullshit like freebies" or do you think they should work on cutting dumb spending across the board? I know what I'd want them to do...
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It's a good idea to be honest, I like it.
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I agree with this notion completely... If the government is going to be using my tax money on people on welfare, I want to be sure I'm not indirectly funding the drug cartels in Latin America. Lol
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My only question is why just drugs? What about alcohol? What about candies? Is someone spending all their welfare money on sweets somewhat better? Money wasted is money wasted. Rather than doing all kinds of fancy tests, do a simple screening process in case of doubt. Now, with law like that everyone applying for welfare will have to be tested, tests costs as well and if the percentage of people they will actually filter out will be relatively small it will be actually bigger waste of money in the end.
All in all the system of welfare all around the world is flawed, but most politicians just look for solutions that will look nicely on their press conference rather than for ones that will actually solve problems. I doubt it will be change much, or bring any real savings.
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On June 10 2011 04:25 SpoR wrote: I mean it makes sense but yea the government testing for drugs without probable cause is kind of strange. Guilty before proven innocent kind of thing.
Except guilty before innocent relates to being tried for a crime. This is merely protecting hard-earned taxpayer money before it is spent on free food for their fellow-citizens. Who knows, this may even help people overcome drug addictions?
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On October 25 2011 16:05 SynthFae wrote: My only question is why just drugs? What about alcohol? What about candies? Is someone spending all their welfare money on sweets somewhat better? Money wasted is money wasted. Rather than doing all kinds of fancy tests, do a simple screening process in case of doubt. Now, with law like that everyone applying for welfare will have to be tested, tests costs as well and if the percentage of people they will actually filter out will be relatively small it will be actually bigger waste of money in the end.
All in all the system of welfare all around the world is flawed, but most politicians just look for solutions that will look nicely on their press conference rather than for ones that will actually solve problems. I doubt it will be change much, or bring any real savings.
How do you propose we do a 'Candies Test' then?
o.O
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