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the kid is a siege tank"Got no patience for sittin' around!" "Lay it on me!"
the girls are the banshees "You can only tie the record for low flight.""This could get messy!"
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On June 06 2011 09:30 Nanoko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 06:24 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On June 06 2011 06:06 Asjo wrote:
I see this as a harsh prank by the girls, not a legal matter. Also, I think we have to consider that maybe the kid secretly liked this. The video aside, it's mostly playing around involving close physical contact with girls ...
The reason that people would react differently if it was a bunch of boys would only be due to rationalizations in regards to the sexual aspect of it. People interpret behaviour, consider what it might lead to, and act preventatively. Perhaps this might sometimes lead to an overreaction, but that doesn't mean that you should also overreact to a single instance of bullying by girls in the name of equality. As it is, it was a bunch of young kids acting immaturely and getting physical about it. Obviously, the school/parents will react to avoid things escalating, but as such there is nothing outrageous about the interaction.
I don't know if the comments in this thread about child porn are serious. However, just because someone underage is filmed nude, does not in any way make it child porn. Nudity is the most natural thing in the world. Child porn is about exploitation of children and the often sexualized depiction of such. I dont think youve ever undressed or have been undressed unwillingly in front of relative strangers have you? Try putting yourself in the shoes of the boy, 3 years younger and alone, in public, getting undressed while being kept down by the girls. Sure is quite a lot of humiliation in that. Something similar happened to me once, just that the people doing it were 3 boys from my class and they undressed me for practically everyone in my class to see. Believe me there is nothing to secretly enjoy about this at that age. Later on in your life when you might or might not develop kinks and fetishes is another thing, but dont tell me an 11 year old might be into humiliation, even if it involved being in close contact with some girls. I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it. The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect. Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of  ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. You fail to answer with evidence, yet again, relying on your "intuition" reasoning as "evidence" for your beliefs. This is not evidence, you are not making a valid argument merely by saying "well based on past experiences and my knowledge i have drawn conclusion X" . it's like me saying "Well, based on my past experience and knowledge with religious people they are all overbearing Zealots who want o Burn gays at the stake without exception" and backing up my reasoning by saying "it's intuitive thinking for me, I don't need to provide evidence"....As for 27 year olds having experiences that would make them come to the same conclusions as you, well....as you said intuition is the some of our experiences correct? then to draw this conclusion it is not without reason to say that a person would have had to spend a significant amount of time either around children who are bullied in similar manners OR went through similar experiences as a child in order to INTUITIVELY determine conclusion X,Y, or Z Oh yes And By the way Sexism:" the belief or attitude that one sex is inherently superior to, more competent than, or more valuable than the other. It can also include this type of discrimination in regards to gender. Sexism primarily involves hatred of, or prejudice towards, either sex as a whole (see misogyny and misandry), or the application of stereotypes of masculinity in relation to men, or of femininity in relation to women.[2] It is also called male and female chauvinism."
You're simply repeating your previous point. I will not limit myself to arguing whatever I can find scientific articles to support.
What kind of experiences would be useful in making sense of the situation? Well, many different kinds, for instance: knowledge about bullying, sexual behaviour, mental make-up of youngsters, social dynamics of youth, dominance/submission, alienation, etc.
I'm not sure why you quote a similar albeit differently worded definition of sexism. Doesn't go against what I said in the post you responded to.
On June 06 2011 10:20 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 06:24 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On June 06 2011 06:06 Asjo wrote:
I see this as a harsh prank by the girls, not a legal matter. Also, I think we have to consider that maybe the kid secretly liked this. The video aside, it's mostly playing around involving close physical contact with girls ...
The reason that people would react differently if it was a bunch of boys would only be due to rationalizations in regards to the sexual aspect of it. People interpret behaviour, consider what it might lead to, and act preventatively. Perhaps this might sometimes lead to an overreaction, but that doesn't mean that you should also overreact to a single instance of bullying by girls in the name of equality. As it is, it was a bunch of young kids acting immaturely and getting physical about it. Obviously, the school/parents will react to avoid things escalating, but as such there is nothing outrageous about the interaction.
I don't know if the comments in this thread about child porn are serious. However, just because someone underage is filmed nude, does not in any way make it child porn. Nudity is the most natural thing in the world. Child porn is about exploitation of children and the often sexualized depiction of such. I dont think youve ever undressed or have been undressed unwillingly in front of relative strangers have you? Try putting yourself in the shoes of the boy, 3 years younger and alone, in public, getting undressed while being kept down by the girls. Sure is quite a lot of humiliation in that. Something similar happened to me once, just that the people doing it were 3 boys from my class and they undressed me for practically everyone in my class to see. Believe me there is nothing to secretly enjoy about this at that age. Later on in your life when you might or might not develop kinks and fetishes is another thing, but dont tell me an 11 year old might be into humiliation, even if it involved being in close contact with some girls. I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it. The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect. Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. And you bring up, "he may have secretly liked it". What kind of argument is this? "No, your honor. It wasn't rape, because she orgasmed. She secretly liked it! Besides, she was secretly engaging in behaviour that may have led to this, wearing slutty clothing. SHE HAD IT COMING".
I'm not using it as an argument. You seem not only to have misunderstood what I was saying about it in all my post, but also to have missed the explanation I gave when confronted with a similar deduction:
On June 06 2011 09:18 Asjo wrote:
Your comparison to murder holds little relevance. The reason I brought this up at all, other than provoking people into a different line of thought, is to point out the implications of the incident. I'm not saying that the boy did enjoy it, but that it's potentially ambiguous and not something that people should automatically make big deal out of (which is not necessarily in the interests of the boy). Whereas killing someone is pretty clear-cut and is certainly a big deal.
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On June 06 2011 17:40 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 09:30 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 06:24 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
[quote]
I dont think youve ever undressed or have been undressed unwillingly in front of relative strangers have you? Try putting yourself in the shoes of the boy, 3 years younger and alone, in public, getting undressed while being kept down by the girls. Sure is quite a lot of humiliation in that. Something similar happened to me once, just that the people doing it were 3 boys from my class and they undressed me for practically everyone in my class to see. Believe me there is nothing to secretly enjoy about this at that age. Later on in your life when you might or might not develop kinks and fetishes is another thing, but dont tell me an 11 year old might be into humiliation, even if it involved being in close contact with some girls. I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it. The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect. Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. You fail to answer with evidence, yet again, relying on your "intuition" reasoning as "evidence" for your beliefs. This is not evidence, you are not making a valid argument merely by saying "well based on past experiences and my knowledge i have drawn conclusion X" . it's like me saying "Well, based on my past experience and knowledge with religious people they are all overbearing Zealots who want o Burn gays at the stake without exception" and backing up my reasoning by saying "it's intuitive thinking for me, I don't need to provide evidence"....As for 27 year olds having experiences that would make them come to the same conclusions as you, well....as you said intuition is the some of our experiences correct? then to draw this conclusion it is not without reason to say that a person would have had to spend a significant amount of time either around children who are bullied in similar manners OR went through similar experiences as a child in order to INTUITIVELY determine conclusion X,Y, or Z Oh yes And By the way Sexism:" the belief or attitude that one sex is inherently superior to, more competent than, or more valuable than the other. It can also include this type of discrimination in regards to gender. Sexism primarily involves hatred of, or prejudice towards, either sex as a whole (see misogyny and misandry), or the application of stereotypes of masculinity in relation to men, or of femininity in relation to women.[2] It is also called male and female chauvinism." You're simply repeating your previous point. I will not limit myself to arguing whatever I can find scientific articles to support. What kind of experiences would be useful in making sense of the situation? Well, many different kinds, for instance: knowledge about bullying, sexual behaviour, mental make-up of youngsters, social dynamics of youth, dominance/submission, alienation, etc. I'm not sure why you quote a similar albeit differently worded definition of sexism. Doesn't go against what I said in the post you responded to. Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 10:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 06:24 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
[quote]
I dont think youve ever undressed or have been undressed unwillingly in front of relative strangers have you? Try putting yourself in the shoes of the boy, 3 years younger and alone, in public, getting undressed while being kept down by the girls. Sure is quite a lot of humiliation in that. Something similar happened to me once, just that the people doing it were 3 boys from my class and they undressed me for practically everyone in my class to see. Believe me there is nothing to secretly enjoy about this at that age. Later on in your life when you might or might not develop kinks and fetishes is another thing, but dont tell me an 11 year old might be into humiliation, even if it involved being in close contact with some girls. I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it. The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect. Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. And you bring up, "he may have secretly liked it". What kind of argument is this? "No, your honor. It wasn't rape, because she orgasmed. She secretly liked it! Besides, she was secretly engaging in behaviour that may have led to this, wearing slutty clothing. SHE HAD IT COMING". I'm not using it as an argument. You seem not only to have misunderstood what I was saying about it in all my post, but also to have missed the explanation I gave when confronted with a similar deduction: Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 09:18 Asjo wrote:
Your comparison to murder holds little relevance. The reason I brought this up at all, other than provoking people into a different line of thought, is to point out the implications of the incident. I'm not saying that the boy did enjoy it, but that it's potentially ambiguous and not something that people should automatically make big deal out of (which is not necessarily in the interests of the boy). Whereas killing someone is pretty clear-cut and is certainly a big deal.
You probably should limit yourself to arguing based on evidence, because arguments from intuition are utterly useless drivel.
I fail to see how you pointing out the implications of the incident at all adds to the debate, especially since you seem to be saying that 11 years olds have femdom fantasies. Seriously? What the fuck, mate.
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On June 06 2011 18:20 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 17:40 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 09:30 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:
[quote]
I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it.
The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect.
Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. You fail to answer with evidence, yet again, relying on your "intuition" reasoning as "evidence" for your beliefs. This is not evidence, you are not making a valid argument merely by saying "well based on past experiences and my knowledge i have drawn conclusion X" . it's like me saying "Well, based on my past experience and knowledge with religious people they are all overbearing Zealots who want o Burn gays at the stake without exception" and backing up my reasoning by saying "it's intuitive thinking for me, I don't need to provide evidence"....As for 27 year olds having experiences that would make them come to the same conclusions as you, well....as you said intuition is the some of our experiences correct? then to draw this conclusion it is not without reason to say that a person would have had to spend a significant amount of time either around children who are bullied in similar manners OR went through similar experiences as a child in order to INTUITIVELY determine conclusion X,Y, or Z Oh yes And By the way Sexism:" the belief or attitude that one sex is inherently superior to, more competent than, or more valuable than the other. It can also include this type of discrimination in regards to gender. Sexism primarily involves hatred of, or prejudice towards, either sex as a whole (see misogyny and misandry), or the application of stereotypes of masculinity in relation to men, or of femininity in relation to women.[2] It is also called male and female chauvinism." You're simply repeating your previous point. I will not limit myself to arguing whatever I can find scientific articles to support. What kind of experiences would be useful in making sense of the situation? Well, many different kinds, for instance: knowledge about bullying, sexual behaviour, mental make-up of youngsters, social dynamics of youth, dominance/submission, alienation, etc. I'm not sure why you quote a similar albeit differently worded definition of sexism. Doesn't go against what I said in the post you responded to. On June 06 2011 10:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:
[quote]
I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it.
The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect.
Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. And you bring up, "he may have secretly liked it". What kind of argument is this? "No, your honor. It wasn't rape, because she orgasmed. She secretly liked it! Besides, she was secretly engaging in behaviour that may have led to this, wearing slutty clothing. SHE HAD IT COMING". I'm not using it as an argument. You seem not only to have misunderstood what I was saying about it in all my post, but also to have missed the explanation I gave when confronted with a similar deduction: On June 06 2011 09:18 Asjo wrote:
Your comparison to murder holds little relevance. The reason I brought this up at all, other than provoking people into a different line of thought, is to point out the implications of the incident. I'm not saying that the boy did enjoy it, but that it's potentially ambiguous and not something that people should automatically make big deal out of (which is not necessarily in the interests of the boy). Whereas killing someone is pretty clear-cut and is certainly a big deal.
You probably should limit yourself to arguing based on evidence, because arguments from intuition are utterly useless drivel. I fail to see how you pointing out the implications of the incident at all adds to the debate, especially since you seem to be saying that 11 years olds have femdom fantasies. Seriously? What the fuck, mate.
Of course I shouldn't. Scientific proof in no way dictates debates. All but a few percentages of debates have their base in common knowledge, experience, morality, etc. That does not make them "useless drivel" and the points can be just as valid without the backing of a scientific article.
Once again, it seems that people prefer using rhetorics and twisting my points rather than to actually argue. Here, you translate "touching" and "getting into contact with" to "being dominated by". Not that I think the part about femdom fantasies would be impossible, but that's not what I said. I have already pointed out what it adds; it helps point out the ambiguity of the situation.
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On June 06 2011 18:58 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 18:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 17:40 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 09:30 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:
[quote]
First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them.
It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow
I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. You fail to answer with evidence, yet again, relying on your "intuition" reasoning as "evidence" for your beliefs. This is not evidence, you are not making a valid argument merely by saying "well based on past experiences and my knowledge i have drawn conclusion X" . it's like me saying "Well, based on my past experience and knowledge with religious people they are all overbearing Zealots who want o Burn gays at the stake without exception" and backing up my reasoning by saying "it's intuitive thinking for me, I don't need to provide evidence"....As for 27 year olds having experiences that would make them come to the same conclusions as you, well....as you said intuition is the some of our experiences correct? then to draw this conclusion it is not without reason to say that a person would have had to spend a significant amount of time either around children who are bullied in similar manners OR went through similar experiences as a child in order to INTUITIVELY determine conclusion X,Y, or Z Oh yes And By the way Sexism:" the belief or attitude that one sex is inherently superior to, more competent than, or more valuable than the other. It can also include this type of discrimination in regards to gender. Sexism primarily involves hatred of, or prejudice towards, either sex as a whole (see misogyny and misandry), or the application of stereotypes of masculinity in relation to men, or of femininity in relation to women.[2] It is also called male and female chauvinism." You're simply repeating your previous point. I will not limit myself to arguing whatever I can find scientific articles to support. What kind of experiences would be useful in making sense of the situation? Well, many different kinds, for instance: knowledge about bullying, sexual behaviour, mental make-up of youngsters, social dynamics of youth, dominance/submission, alienation, etc. I'm not sure why you quote a similar albeit differently worded definition of sexism. Doesn't go against what I said in the post you responded to. On June 06 2011 10:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:
[quote]
First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them.
It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow
I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. And you bring up, "he may have secretly liked it". What kind of argument is this? "No, your honor. It wasn't rape, because she orgasmed. She secretly liked it! Besides, she was secretly engaging in behaviour that may have led to this, wearing slutty clothing. SHE HAD IT COMING". I'm not using it as an argument. You seem not only to have misunderstood what I was saying about it in all my post, but also to have missed the explanation I gave when confronted with a similar deduction: On June 06 2011 09:18 Asjo wrote:
Your comparison to murder holds little relevance. The reason I brought this up at all, other than provoking people into a different line of thought, is to point out the implications of the incident. I'm not saying that the boy did enjoy it, but that it's potentially ambiguous and not something that people should automatically make big deal out of (which is not necessarily in the interests of the boy). Whereas killing someone is pretty clear-cut and is certainly a big deal.
You probably should limit yourself to arguing based on evidence, because arguments from intuition are utterly useless drivel. I fail to see how you pointing out the implications of the incident at all adds to the debate, especially since you seem to be saying that 11 years olds have femdom fantasies. Seriously? What the fuck, mate. Of course I shouldn't. Scientific proof in no way dictates debates. All but a few percentages of debates have their base in common knowledge, experience, morality, etc. That does not make them "useless drivel" and the points can be just as valid without the backing of a scientific article. Once again, it seems that people prefer using rhetorics and twisting my points rather than to actually argue. Here, you translate "touching" and "getting into contact with" to "being dominated by". Not that I think the part about femdom fantasies would be impossible, but that's not what I said. I have already pointed out what it adds; it helps point out the ambiguity of the situation.
Fair enough, though my attitude towards people who claim something as fact is still [citation needed]
The situation at hand is one of domination, though, so pointing out that he might have enjoyed it had they undressed him in a different manner is bit silly.
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On June 06 2011 16:54 Redukt wrote:
Deduce that the mother must be siding with the girls against her son, possibly due to the awesome telepathic power of vaginas. Also, there would apparently be rape charges if the genders were reversed, despite actual video evidence that no rape took place. Some of you even appear to have taken this entire what-if-the-genders-were-reversed situation, constructed a little story in which CNN and a jury of soccer moms make sure some 14-year old boys get castrated, and on these grounds decided that USA is a matriarchy.
While there are people here who do not understand the difference between sexual assault and rape, the general idea that if the genders were reversed that 14-year-old boys would face sexual criminal charges is likely accurate.
This doesn't make the USA a matriarchy, but it certainly does highlight an inherently sexist social view of sexual assault, even if it stems from gender roles that are simultaneously misogynistic and misandrc.
This is one of several situations where systemic misogyny results in misandric practices: see also "women and children first".
No, it isn't, and the fact that you think so suggests you've been drinking too much of the feminist Kool-Aid.
Sexist things happen to girls? Misogyny!
Sexist things happen to boys? Misogyny still!
I don't suppose it has ever occured to you that it's not black-and-white, and that society can hold views that are both misogynistic and misandric?
Someone upthread correctly pointed out that feminists are not a hive mind, but I am quite confident that you'll be hard pressed to find a feminist who endorses the behavior of these girls. Certainly all the feminists I know, and I include myself here, would find that "prank" reprehensible. And I know some pretty diverse feminists, including some I disagree with about almost everything.
It's more likely that this incident will be overlooked by the feminist community entirely, since harm to boys is not one of their concerns. I certainly haven't seen any sort of discussion of this going on at Jezebel, Feministe, Shakesville, or the rest of the feminist blogosphere.
However, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, Lorena Bobbitt was widely hailed as a feminist hero when that incident occurred. There's been several other high-profile incidents, such as the recent Hofstra false rape allegation case, where a majority of feminists have sided against innocent males. In most cases, any wrong done by a woman or girl is white-washed with something along the lines of the 'patriarchy made them do it'.
It is not unreasonable to draw the conclusion that feminists as a group (though not all of them) would side with the girls here in a similar fashion; e.g., something like the girls don't deserve to be punished because they are merely acting out social scripts conferred by rape culture, the boy isn't really humiliated since hegemonic masculinity makes that impossible, the boy must have provoked the attack, etc.
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On June 06 2011 13:34 Eknoid4 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 11:15 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 10:57 Eknoid4 wrote:
Males complaining about gender double standards is pretty hilarious.
if you're a white male you benefit from double standards more than any other demographic in the country. [citation needed] oh ok. White males aren't the most privileged or powerful demographic, my mistake.
Hi Chip, get off the shoulder. Your not racist at all. LOL!
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On June 06 2011 19:45 gold_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 13:34 Eknoid4 wrote:On June 06 2011 11:15 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 10:57 Eknoid4 wrote:
Males complaining about gender double standards is pretty hilarious.
if you're a white male you benefit from double standards more than any other demographic in the country. [citation needed] oh ok. White males aren't the most privileged or powerful demographic, my mistake. Hi Chip, get off the shoulder. Your not racist at all. LOL!
lol they are? i think it highly depends on where you live lol...
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On June 06 2011 19:25 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 16:54 Redukt wrote:
This doesn't make the USA a matriarchy, but it certainly does highlight an inherently sexist social view of sexual assault, even if it stems from gender roles that are simultaneously misogynistic and misandrc.
lol before the pilgrims came, this ground was ruled by mothers lol...i think
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On June 06 2011 18:58 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 18:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 17:40 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 09:30 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:
[quote]
First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them.
It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow
I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. You fail to answer with evidence, yet again, relying on your "intuition" reasoning as "evidence" for your beliefs. This is not evidence, you are not making a valid argument merely by saying "well based on past experiences and my knowledge i have drawn conclusion X" . it's like me saying "Well, based on my past experience and knowledge with religious people they are all overbearing Zealots who want o Burn gays at the stake without exception" and backing up my reasoning by saying "it's intuitive thinking for me, I don't need to provide evidence"....As for 27 year olds having experiences that would make them come to the same conclusions as you, well....as you said intuition is the some of our experiences correct? then to draw this conclusion it is not without reason to say that a person would have had to spend a significant amount of time either around children who are bullied in similar manners OR went through similar experiences as a child in order to INTUITIVELY determine conclusion X,Y, or Z Oh yes And By the way Sexism:" the belief or attitude that one sex is inherently superior to, more competent than, or more valuable than the other. It can also include this type of discrimination in regards to gender. Sexism primarily involves hatred of, or prejudice towards, either sex as a whole (see misogyny and misandry), or the application of stereotypes of masculinity in relation to men, or of femininity in relation to women.[2] It is also called male and female chauvinism." You're simply repeating your previous point. I will not limit myself to arguing whatever I can find scientific articles to support. What kind of experiences would be useful in making sense of the situation? Well, many different kinds, for instance: knowledge about bullying, sexual behaviour, mental make-up of youngsters, social dynamics of youth, dominance/submission, alienation, etc. I'm not sure why you quote a similar albeit differently worded definition of sexism. Doesn't go against what I said in the post you responded to. On June 06 2011 10:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:
[quote]
First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them.
It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow
I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. And you bring up, "he may have secretly liked it". What kind of argument is this? "No, your honor. It wasn't rape, because she orgasmed. She secretly liked it! Besides, she was secretly engaging in behaviour that may have led to this, wearing slutty clothing. SHE HAD IT COMING". I'm not using it as an argument. You seem not only to have misunderstood what I was saying about it in all my post, but also to have missed the explanation I gave when confronted with a similar deduction: On June 06 2011 09:18 Asjo wrote:
Your comparison to murder holds little relevance. The reason I brought this up at all, other than provoking people into a different line of thought, is to point out the implications of the incident. I'm not saying that the boy did enjoy it, but that it's potentially ambiguous and not something that people should automatically make big deal out of (which is not necessarily in the interests of the boy). Whereas killing someone is pretty clear-cut and is certainly a big deal.
You probably should limit yourself to arguing based on evidence, because arguments from intuition are utterly useless drivel. I fail to see how you pointing out the implications of the incident at all adds to the debate, especially since you seem to be saying that 11 years olds have femdom fantasies. Seriously? What the fuck, mate. Of course I shouldn't. Scientific proof in no way dictates debates. All but a few percentages of debates have their base in common knowledge, experience, morality, etc. That does not make them "useless drivel" and the points can be just as valid without the backing of a scientific article. Once again, it seems that people prefer using rhetorics and twisting my points rather than to actually argue. Here, you translate "touching" and "getting into contact with" to "being dominated by". Not that I think the part about femdom fantasies would be impossible, but that's not what I said. I have already pointed out what it adds; it helps point out the ambiguity of the situation.
You say a lot and in turn it is actually nothing, you repeat yourself over and over. Your point is the old sexist thinking is still OK? I honestly think you don't even have a point, though. Everything you say is based on either old stereotyping of males or a hypothesis on your side. Almost pointless in responding to you, feel like I am being trolled to keep the thread alive.
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I just want to say one thing to those people who feel discriminated by women, because if the genders would be reversed there would be prisontime.
The thought about sexual assault by women on men was never even tought, because we live in a patriarchaical society, with very strong gender roles. Women have to be protected, are weak, etc. while men (or boys) are strong, masculin and fighters.
The thought that men get sexually attacked by women didn't even exist for a long time, and because boys are stronger, they could just fight back "if they really wanted to".
There's no lawsuit, not because those "evil feminists" want men raped, but because this boy didn't fit in his role given by society.
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Girls should be suspended from school, but that boy needs to hit the gym..... how the hell do he get overpowered by a few girls? Man up, son!
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I think it's very funny that people on an internet message board for a computergame all spout that shit about being "hard" and how you can be beaten up by girls.
so, who of you has ever been in a fight?
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On June 06 2011 20:48 tskarzyn wrote:
Girls should be suspended from school, but that boy needs to hit the gym..... how the hell do he get overpowered by a few girls? Man up, son!
This is pretty funny and I would agree if he was 16+
But since he is 11 year old boy he probably hasn't even hit puberty yet, and as such I doubt there would be that much of a muscular difference, at least not enough to offset the odds.
As for the situation itself, I doubt this kid is going to grow up having healthy views on women. I can understand laughing at a matured male that cannot defend himself physically from women. But seriously this kid had no chance, the fact that society is fine with this makes me facepalm pretty hard.
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Why are people suggesting that ~society~ is fine with it?
Just because charges weren't pressed doesn't mean that the vast majority of people do not find this abhorrently fucked up. Although the fact the school is doing nothing is really quite unfathomable.
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Why are people suggesting that ~society~ is fine with it?
Although the fact the school is doing nothing is really quite unfathomable.
I should rephrase though, society is relatively fine with it. When realistically there is little difference if the genders were swapped in the scenario; in either case the victim was unable to defend themselves.
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On June 05 2011 14:46 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 14:43 Hakker wrote:
Justice? punishment? they just took the kids clothes off lol
if anything in 5 years he'll look back on how lucky he was.
3 14 year old boys forcibly restrain and remove the clothes of an 11 year old girl, and they go on the sex offenders register. 3 14 year old girls forcibly restrain and remove the clothes of an 11 year old boy, and its a harmless prank that maybe got a little bit out of hand.
That wouldn't have been the case if the mom wasn't such a horrible god damn parent. Hard to do anything with such retarded parents on this planet, I bet before this happened the poor child was scarred for life to begin with from some other incident caused by his mother anyways.
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She didn't press charges because she didn't want to do a ridiculous ammount of damage to a bunch of kids. That's all it has nothing to do with society, they are kids, kid problems are solved by parents not a court.
You also turn it into some "if boys did this then blabla discussion", in truth there was no sex crime to be done there, was just a shitty joke, kids do lots of those. Fact that your society has idiots who would send young boys on a road to failure over something like that, doesn't mean the mom was wrong for not pressing charges. It just means your vision is already so warped you can't see a proper action when you're presented with it.
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Yeh the mother's decision is completely understandable, though with the school not punishing the girls I think it'd be hard for me not to pursue a legal course of action unless the son didn't want to.
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On June 05 2011 14:55 Kamais_Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 14:51 haduken wrote:
The mother did the right thing. If she went ahead and press charges then her son would be the laughing stock of the school.
Sad but true. The son already is the laughing stock of the whole school considering the video was posted on youtube + news and stuff, everyone knows what happened and I bet he's going to be bullied and humiliated further more. At the very least, pressing charges would punish the girls well, and I would like for them to get punishment from school as well but alas, the girls face ZERO consequences for their actions.
Okay, but I think that having the mom come in and go hard like that will be even more damaging.
I know I would not want my mom to defend me when I was at that age but then again I've never really being bullied in such way, all the stuff that was dealt to me was settled with fists. I guess I was lucky to have a straight forward option to react.
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EPT
