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On June 06 2011 21:23 Cyba wrote:
She didn't press charges because she didn't want to do a ridiculous ammount of damage to a bunch of kids. That's all it has nothing to do with society, they are kids, kid problems are solved by parents not a court.
You also turn it into some "if boys did this then blabla discussion", in truth there was no sex crime to be done there, was just a shitty joke, kids do lots of those. Fact that your society has idiots who would send young boys on a road to failure over something like that, doesn't mean the mom was wrong for not pressing charges. It just means your vision is already so warped you can't see a proper action when you're presented with it.
I agree with the mother's choice, what I don't agree with is the school's choice. People should not have their lives ruined over a prank. However this is a pretty bad form of bullying and the school doing nothing about it is pretty sad.
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I think the entire response to this "incident" is pretty exaggerated. Kids are kids, they do stuff like this. The harmful part is that it appeared on Youtube.
If these were kids past puberty with a clear understanding of why it was inappropriate behavior, then sure, throw around sexual harassment claims. Back when I was in school, you could rarely go a day without seeing a kid trying to embarrass another kid by pulling down his/her pants/skirt/whatever.
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The sad thing is, that - if only behind closed doors - I'm sure many of the people who are involved in this (school employees, parents of pupils there etc.) are finding this pretty funny.
Otherwise there would be no justification for the school doing nothing. If I had a son OR a daughter there, I'm not sure if I'd be ok with him/her going to this school ever again. Just because the mere thought of them being taught by people who are ok with pupils assaulting each other wouldn't let me sleep.
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On June 06 2011 21:35 Dox wrote:
I think the entire response to this "incident" is pretty exaggerated. Kids are kids, they do stuff like this. The harmful part is that it appeared on Youtube.
If these were kids past puberty with a clear understanding of why it was inappropriate behavior, then sure, throw around sexual harassment claims. Back when I was in school, you could rarely go a day without seeing a kid trying to embarrass another kid by pulling down his/her pants/skirt/whatever.
Females have usually at least started puberty by the age of 14, I know of a few that had actually finished it by that age.
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Kids these days need to harden the fuck up and parents need to stop being overprotective bitches.
Kids also need to learn that their image is not their entire world. When they get out and step into real world, there are way worse things people can inflict and humiliate them with.
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On June 06 2011 21:41 haduken wrote:
Kids these days need to harden the fuck up and parents need to stop being overprotective bitches.
Kids also need to learn that their image is not their entire world. When they get out and step into real world, there are way worse things people can inflict and humiliate them with.
Yeah I kinda agree with you. Even if I feel the girls were bitches and that the guy should slam them for revenge, what he suffered is still kinda trivial and the girls do not deserve to go to prison for that. It should not even be on TV in the first place.
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On June 06 2011 21:41 haduken wrote:
Kids these days need to harden the fuck up and parents need to stop being overprotective bitches.
Kids also need to learn that their image is not their entire world. When they get out and step into real world, there are way worse things people can inflict and humiliate them with.
I agree with everything but the first bit. He's 11 years old, that's gotta be pretty fucken traumatising and will probably haunt him long time
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On June 06 2011 21:41 haduken wrote:
Kids these days need to harden the fuck up and parents need to stop being overprotective bitches.
Kids also need to learn that their image is not their entire world. When they get out and step into real world, there are way worse things people can inflict and humiliate them with.
Same with those fucking rape victims. All crying and shit, just man up and stop being such pussies, right?
Traumatising? More like "I'm-a-bitch-look-at-how-much-I-suck-at-life-ising."
In all seriousness I hope you choke on semen and die. People with your mindset don't belong in any civilised society.
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On June 06 2011 17:40 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 09:30 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 06:24 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
[quote]
I dont think youve ever undressed or have been undressed unwillingly in front of relative strangers have you? Try putting yourself in the shoes of the boy, 3 years younger and alone, in public, getting undressed while being kept down by the girls. Sure is quite a lot of humiliation in that. Something similar happened to me once, just that the people doing it were 3 boys from my class and they undressed me for practically everyone in my class to see. Believe me there is nothing to secretly enjoy about this at that age. Later on in your life when you might or might not develop kinks and fetishes is another thing, but dont tell me an 11 year old might be into humiliation, even if it involved being in close contact with some girls. I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it. The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect. Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of  ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. You fail to answer with evidence, yet again, relying on your "intuition" reasoning as "evidence" for your beliefs. This is not evidence, you are not making a valid argument merely by saying "well based on past experiences and my knowledge i have drawn conclusion X" . it's like me saying "Well, based on my past experience and knowledge with religious people they are all overbearing Zealots who want o Burn gays at the stake without exception" and backing up my reasoning by saying "it's intuitive thinking for me, I don't need to provide evidence"....As for 27 year olds having experiences that would make them come to the same conclusions as you, well....as you said intuition is the some of our experiences correct? then to draw this conclusion it is not without reason to say that a person would have had to spend a significant amount of time either around children who are bullied in similar manners OR went through similar experiences as a child in order to INTUITIVELY determine conclusion X,Y, or Z Oh yes And By the way Sexism:" the belief or attitude that one sex is inherently superior to, more competent than, or more valuable than the other. It can also include this type of discrimination in regards to gender. Sexism primarily involves hatred of, or prejudice towards, either sex as a whole (see misogyny and misandry), or the application of stereotypes of masculinity in relation to men, or of femininity in relation to women.[2] It is also called male and female chauvinism." You're simply repeating your previous point. I will not limit myself to arguing whatever I can find scientific articles to support. What kind of experiences would be useful in making sense of the situation? Well, many different kinds, for instance: knowledge about bullying, sexual behaviour, mental make-up of youngsters, social dynamics of youth, dominance/submission, alienation, etc. I'm not sure why you quote a similar albeit differently worded definition of sexism. Doesn't go against what I said in the post you responded to. Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 10:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 06:36 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 06:24 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
[quote]
I dont think youve ever undressed or have been undressed unwillingly in front of relative strangers have you? Try putting yourself in the shoes of the boy, 3 years younger and alone, in public, getting undressed while being kept down by the girls. Sure is quite a lot of humiliation in that. Something similar happened to me once, just that the people doing it were 3 boys from my class and they undressed me for practically everyone in my class to see. Believe me there is nothing to secretly enjoy about this at that age. Later on in your life when you might or might not develop kinks and fetishes is another thing, but dont tell me an 11 year old might be into humiliation, even if it involved being in close contact with some girls. I beg to differ about your last point. You can develop certain ways of relating to girls in terms physical contact, conversation, etc. At this age your hormones might be kicking in, and you're desperate to somehow get in touch with the girls. So, based on whatever experience you have, you assume a behaviour that allows you to do so. This might mean willingly engaging is humiliating situations of some kind and repeating this due to past "success". For all we know, the boy might have somehow tries to encourage the reaction of the girls, even if not this specific act. We don't know. But I certainly wouldn't count out the fact that the boy might have enjoyed it. The other you example you give is more clear cut. At this age, boys start getting more insecure about group dynamics and will battle for dominance. Your lack of power in relation to the boys that you compete with being so clearly displayed will certainly mark you. Mind you, it likely won't have any long-term effects, but you certainly won't like it. Even more so, the situation being designed to humiliate you (carried out for the audience), not just and act of fun/soperiority/venting, enhances this effect. Add to that the fact that most of us get humiliated terribly during our younger years, often against our will. More often than not, it does not weaken us. We learn from it and grow. It's an integral part of interaction at this stage, and if we never get to be foolish kids and act out all our ugly feelings and go through all the motions, there is little chance of use growing up as wise and well-balanced adults. This doesn't mean that kids should behave and treat each other well, but often this comes as part of a process. There will be bullying, people will act to stop the bullying, and hopefully everyone will learn from it. First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them. It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. And you bring up, "he may have secretly liked it". What kind of argument is this? "No, your honor. It wasn't rape, because she orgasmed. She secretly liked it! Besides, she was secretly engaging in behaviour that may have led to this, wearing slutty clothing. SHE HAD IT COMING". I'm not using it as an argument. You seem not only to have misunderstood what I was saying about it in all my post, but also to have missed the explanation I gave when confronted with a similar deduction: Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 09:18 Asjo wrote:
Your comparison to murder holds little relevance. The reason I brought this up at all, other than provoking people into a different line of thought, is to point out the implications of the incident. I'm not saying that the boy did enjoy it, but that it's potentially ambiguous and not something that people should automatically make big deal out of (which is not necessarily in the interests of the boy). Whereas killing someone is pretty clear-cut and is certainly a big deal.
your constant insistence to refer to this intuition you seem to have developed, one where 11 year old kids like being assault in this case because of hormones. Just holds no water, not on any moral grounds and certainly not in a logic based argument. any random 27 year old joe blow does not have the experiences necessary to say that they have a significant "understanding of the "Mental make-up of youth/Social dynamics of youngsters".It is not possible to say that you, based on your past experiences have such a good understanding of the way a childs mind works as to say he probably enjoyed it. Furthermore to suggest that it might be a generally accepted thing is even more ridiculous, you form your opinions on "intuition" intuition is inherently biased, why? because not everyone has the experiences, persoan A goes through situation F and draws conclusion X from it, person B goes through it and draws conclusion Y about it, person C goes through it and they get Z from it.
A could be a racist because of their experiences, B could be sexist because of their experiences, and C could be an rapist because of their experiences. Not everyone will get to the same conclusion from the same set of experiences as well, because of their morals and different other factors in their life and their different beliefs in general. what you're saying is utter nonsense, From your logic, from your argument i can say, and apparently be right or even be agreed with by the majority, "person X was assaulted because of reason Y, I can say this intuitively therefore it is true and most likely a majority of people agree with me" Do you see what's wrong with this way of thinking? Based on your responses, probably not, it is more then likely that you have a twisted set of moral standards and your experiences "with sexual behaviour, child mentality/social dynamics of youth are heavily skewed based on personal experiences, saying that based on your intuitive thinking it must be trued is biased, skewed in one direction, and is completely illogical and irrelevant to this discussion because of it's inherent bias.
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On June 06 2011 18:58 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 18:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 17:40 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 09:30 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:
[quote]
First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them.
It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow
I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. You fail to answer with evidence, yet again, relying on your "intuition" reasoning as "evidence" for your beliefs. This is not evidence, you are not making a valid argument merely by saying "well based on past experiences and my knowledge i have drawn conclusion X" . it's like me saying "Well, based on my past experience and knowledge with religious people they are all overbearing Zealots who want o Burn gays at the stake without exception" and backing up my reasoning by saying "it's intuitive thinking for me, I don't need to provide evidence"....As for 27 year olds having experiences that would make them come to the same conclusions as you, well....as you said intuition is the some of our experiences correct? then to draw this conclusion it is not without reason to say that a person would have had to spend a significant amount of time either around children who are bullied in similar manners OR went through similar experiences as a child in order to INTUITIVELY determine conclusion X,Y, or Z Oh yes And By the way Sexism:" the belief or attitude that one sex is inherently superior to, more competent than, or more valuable than the other. It can also include this type of discrimination in regards to gender. Sexism primarily involves hatred of, or prejudice towards, either sex as a whole (see misogyny and misandry), or the application of stereotypes of masculinity in relation to men, or of femininity in relation to women.[2] It is also called male and female chauvinism." You're simply repeating your previous point. I will not limit myself to arguing whatever I can find scientific articles to support. What kind of experiences would be useful in making sense of the situation? Well, many different kinds, for instance: knowledge about bullying, sexual behaviour, mental make-up of youngsters, social dynamics of youth, dominance/submission, alienation, etc. I'm not sure why you quote a similar albeit differently worded definition of sexism. Doesn't go against what I said in the post you responded to. On June 06 2011 10:20 vetinari wrote:On June 06 2011 09:01 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:49 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:34 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 08:24 Nanoko wrote:On June 06 2011 08:04 Asjo wrote:On June 06 2011 07:49 Nanoko wrote:
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First of all let's say he did enjoy it..why was he screaming and bawling his eyes out?,if I am correct in believing that being publicly humiliated to some people is enjoyable...they wouldn't be screaming or protesting against it would they? Call me crazy, but when people do stuff that they enjoy (Even S&M activities) they don't react in the same way that kid did...do they? NO! Good, now we're learning! Also the whole "Close physical contact with girls" thing, at the onset of puberty (can start in either sex between ages of 10-13, potentially earlier, potentially later). You begin to develop an interest in girls...that is not to say you want to see them NAKED OR that you want THEM TO SEE YOU NAKED, you merely begin to get interested at them. You're not by any means "Desperate" to get into contact with girls, in my experience most guys are scared to hell to even TALK to a girl at around that age BECAUSE of their new found interest in them.
It's not like puberty hits and boys are just like "Wow...I never thought about this before but...girls..are awesome, I wanna hang out with them...and ...i get this weird feeling whenever I'm near them..i wonder if they touch me?....". I really am astonished at how you, and people like you can think this way..it's Mind boggling, absolutely Mind Boggling. as for it not being child porn, Clearly you do not know what child porn is, they do not have to be sexually explicit and child nudity IS considered Child Porn. Maybe at ages 1-4 i can see it not being child porn, cause it's just a baby...but even then there are some Sick Fucks out there. I'm honestly hoping you're just trolling, because this is a pretty fucked up way to look at this....saying that kid, who was clearly NOT enjoying being publicly humiliated and assaulted, could've liked it is just...Wow
I would say you have a very narrow-minded interpreation of what I am saying. My point is completely valid; he could definitely have enjoyed it. I'm using my own experience and knowledge to make that call. I haven't watched the video with sound (sitting on an old computer with no sound right now), so I don't know whather than would change my perception. However, I do know that even if he got enjoyment from it, he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it. I never said that child porn had to be sexually explicit. I'm saying it involved the exploitation of children. This is not exploitation of the boy for the sake of child pornography (at least not that we know of ). He just happens to be naked, the context not at all related. Now, if you're a family father who takes pictures of your daughter while she is naked and bathing there is nothing wrong with that, even if you have her pose. There is nothing wrong with putting these pictures in your family album and showing said album to visitors. However, if you circulate all the nude pictures among other adult males the circumstances do start to point towards to use of these pictures as child pornography. You must be conscious about the heavy stigma that had developed around child pornograpy due to media coverage of incidents. This has gotten to the point where some fathers are afraid to touch their own daughters. It is important to insist that the fear of child explotation does invade and dictate other areas of life, where children can be naked in completely normal circumstances, where they are not being exploited. I'm narrow-minded? Ok I'll bite, from what personal experiences have you concluded that this kid could potentially enjoy this, not related to you by friends, the internet, or anywhere else. What PERSONAL experience with being publicly stripped down by 3 other people and enjoying it do you have? You say that you're using your experience and knowledge, so knowledge of what? do you have a degree in child psychology? most likely not, were you as a child stripped down naked and had a video of it posted on the internet for thousands to see? Also the whole " he would certainly react vividly and show his dismay. This, as such, is what would serve to encourage to girls and also keep up appearances. He doesn't want it to be known that he enjoys it." thing....11 year olds are not Smart enough to have thought that out While being Assaulted, this isn't speculation, this is fact, Kids are not that smart, that's why Adults make the majority of their decisions for them. but no, this kid is obviously faking it cause he wants the sexy time with the ladies right? ofc couldn't possible be he is actually being traumatized, potentially for life or anything? not at all. Of course they can be that smart. As I have speculated earlier, he might have engaged in a similar pattern of behaviour that eventually lead to this, so he understands what will make the girls do what he wants. I think the part of this that is most likely cause actual resistance is the fact that he is being filmed and could risk a degree of exposure that he would find too much. It's silly of your to assert that to understand anything you have to have experiences precisely that or have to have a degree. Me not being a child psychologist does not mean that I would not be able to understand a child better than one such would. And experiences with something similar would give me and understand of what could be going on in this situation. And you poking fun at my statements or exaggerating them does not make them any less valid. My point stands. no,no,no you don't just get to side-step. i asked you from what personal Experiences did you draw your conclusions from. your Speculation is just that...speculation,unless you can provide some sort of evidence, from personal experience or a professional source, that proves that your speculation has the potential to be accurate, what you're saying is nothing more then inane prattle from a sexist. Furthermore, if you're suggesting he engaged in similar behaviour then there is also a likely chance that there is documentation, and possible news coverage of that incident....Furthermore implying that an elven year old has that sophisticated a concept of manipulation, which is exactly what it would be is a little bit preposterous. you said from your own experiences, from your own intuition you drew this conclusion specifically. What experience? what made you draw this conclusion? At the age of eleven I can say with confidence that nearly every eleven year old would find being publicly stripped too much exposure. Your insistence on evidence simply forces me to repeat my previous point; it's intuition, the sum of all our experiences. I am not going to write several pages of life experiences which might give me an insight into the different aspects of human behaviour that are represented in the situation. Suffice to say, most 27-year olds would have sufficient experience to make an informed interpretation of this situation. I doubt anyone will "document" other incidents, unless this went to court. I don't see what revelance it has to bring this up. And you bring up, "he may have secretly liked it". What kind of argument is this? "No, your honor. It wasn't rape, because she orgasmed. She secretly liked it! Besides, she was secretly engaging in behaviour that may have led to this, wearing slutty clothing. SHE HAD IT COMING". I'm not using it as an argument. You seem not only to have misunderstood what I was saying about it in all my post, but also to have missed the explanation I gave when confronted with a similar deduction: On June 06 2011 09:18 Asjo wrote:
Your comparison to murder holds little relevance. The reason I brought this up at all, other than provoking people into a different line of thought, is to point out the implications of the incident. I'm not saying that the boy did enjoy it, but that it's potentially ambiguous and not something that people should automatically make big deal out of (which is not necessarily in the interests of the boy). Whereas killing someone is pretty clear-cut and is certainly a big deal.
You probably should limit yourself to arguing based on evidence, because arguments from intuition are utterly useless drivel. I fail to see how you pointing out the implications of the incident at all adds to the debate, especially since you seem to be saying that 11 years olds have femdom fantasies. Seriously? What the fuck, mate. Of course I shouldn't. Scientific proof in no way dictates debates. All but a few percentages of debates have their base in common knowledge, experience, morality, etc. That does not make them "useless drivel" and the points can be just as valid without the backing of a scientific article. Once again, it seems that people prefer using rhetorics and twisting my points rather than to actually argue. Here, you translate "touching" and "getting into contact with" to "being dominated by". Not that I think the part about femdom fantasies would be impossible, but that's not what I said. I have already pointed out what it adds; it helps point out the ambiguity of the situation.
there is no ambiguity in this situation, kid is being bullied there is a difference between touching and throwing a kid to the ground, violently, you adding the possibility of "femdom" to this equation makes you look even more ridiculous then you did a few minutes ago. you can't twist someones point if they don't have one everything you've said is bias, and has no place in this discussion at all.
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On June 05 2011 14:51 haduken wrote:
The mother did the right thing. If she went ahead and press charges then her son would be the laughing stock of the school.
Sad but true.
That's a terrible way to think about it. Sexual harrassment isn't worth pressing charges over because you may get laughed at? What if he got raped? "Oh, kids will be kids"? "They didn't *really* know what they were doing"? They're not three years old.
He's already been posted on the internet. There's no "saving face". And to even suggest that your classmate's opinion of you is on par with the law and sexual safety is ridiculous.
On June 06 2011 08:58 Gahlo wrote:
If the genders in this were reversed this would be one hell of a shitstorm.
Agreed. There would be fear of incoming rape, whereas so many people see this example as merely a harmless prank. Why the double standard? Because girls don't/ can't rape boys? Because that's not what the stereotype dictates? It's a pity that people are so closed-minded.
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On June 06 2011 22:02 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 21:41 haduken wrote:
Kids these days need to harden the fuck up and parents need to stop being overprotective bitches.
Kids also need to learn that their image is not their entire world. When they get out and step into real world, there are way worse things people can inflict and humiliate them with. Same with those fucking rape victims. All crying and shit, just man up and stop being such pussies, right? Traumatising? More like "I'm-a-bitch-look-at-how-much-I-suck-at-life-ising." In all seriousness I hope you choke on semen and die. People with your mindset don't belong in any civilised society.
I like your post! except the part about him dying. :D
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Shit sucks for the kid. I had similar crappy experiences growing up, albeit it was a much different time. This kind of thing would never happen when I was a kid (the YouTube element), although in 4th grade a girl did beat me up. Nowadays I would deck any woman that hit me with enough force to piss me off, citing equality, but I'm an entirely different person and I've manned up from the way I was as a kid.
This kid is no different. His mother wants what's best for her son and she's right not resorting to litigation for something like this. The courts should be used for more serious problems than some cruel girls affecting a finite moment in a kid's social life.
The problem is that for every good parent there are about 10 bad ones nowadays. I'll bet many of these girls don't even get punished for what they did because their parents could care less.
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If a bunch of 15 year old boys would do this to a 11 year old girl all hell would break lose.
I agree with not pressing charges, but the school and the parents better come up with serious disciplinary actions to show them how off they were...
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People keep saying how if 4 boys were doing this to a girl it would be a shitstorm. I think that it would be and justifiably so, since girls are generally more pleasant and good-natured than guys. Girls will only go so far as pulling pranks. Boys are a lot more devious and will do things like rape and science. That's why there are so many more men than women in prison.
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On June 06 2011 23:37 Gummy wrote:
People keep saying how if 4 boys were doing this to a girl it would be a shitstorm. I think that it would be and justifiably so, since girls are generally more pleasant and good-natured than guys. Girls will only go so far as pulling pranks. Boys are a lot more devious and will do things like rape and science. That's why there are so many more men than women in prison.
Please tell me you are being sarcastic? Are you saying that the male gender is more responsible for its "pranks" than females? You are basically saying that because it was females assaulting a male that it is ok because females in society are nicer. But if it was males assaulting a female then they should get it more trouble? The law SHOULD NOT CHANGE dependent on gender for cases such as this. There is something twisted in your head if you think that people can be more/less at fault for doing the same thing with gender reversals..
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I think that it would be and justifiably so, since girls are generally more pleasant and good-natured than guys.
Never had a gf eh
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On June 06 2011 23:37 Gummy wrote:
Boys are a lot more devious and will do things like rape and science.
Rape and science, 2 things only males do. Devious bastards.
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It's ok because it's girls bullying a boy. If it was the other way around, there would be a massive outcry and shit would hit the fan so hard, those boys lives would probably be ruined. Here, it's just a harmless funny prank, no charges.
Fact of the matter is equality will never be true.
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EPT
