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On June 03 2011 19:20 lakrismamma wrote:
You can be heterosexual even though you sleep with men sometimes.
Dunno what planet you're on, but you are considered homosexual/ bi-sexual if you sleep with a man..what the fuck...there is no "oh I just did it but I'm still straight", in any way possible.
And, sorry to come at this thread wrong, but IMO you're trying to justify being a vegan a little too much, as it really doesn't matter what you think, it's just a choice, and I can assure you people will never, ever stop eating animals/meat nor give them the same rights.
(Btw, the stalin/hitler thing, how is that in any way relevant? At all? What does their natural preferences of food have anything to do with what they did within their life? Really?)
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Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is.
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These threads are pointless. People desperately defend themselves in this sort of situation. It's very irrational for both sides.
Get out now before someone dies.
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Countdown to thread close! 10...9...8...
I like that we keep trying- but both sides of this argument get heated too quickly. Pretty soon we'll be arguing about Hitler again and calling eachother immoral douche nozzles. Enjoy the tranquility while it lasts!
User was warned for this post
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On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is.
This is the spark that lights the flame of my righteous fire. It's my birthday today, so instead of politely informing you about how you are wrong on all these points, I'll just let you live in your sad little world were nothing matters and no one does anything. Fair?
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On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is.
What about refusing to use slaves in a society where slavery is the norm?
I dislike taking part in these shitfests but I am genuinely interested in how you can think like this.
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On June 03 2011 23:57 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. This is the spark that lights the flame of my righteous fire. It's my birthday today, so instead of politely informing you about how you are wrong on all these points, I'll just let you live in your sad little world were nothing matters and no one does anything. Fair?
Fair enough I forgot to put that it was my opinion, but looking at it from a strictly logical stand point what don't you agree with?
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On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is.
I'm a vegan. I'm not a martyr, my life is great. I'm not suffering, I eat wholesomely. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I just don't like meat.
I believe that the world would be better with a vegan human race but i'm not going to try and force my own beliefs. I respect meat eaters alternate views.
Stop this stereotype that all vegans are liberal hardcores who don't eat meat out of elitism/spite and are constantly trying to 'convert' omnivores.
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On June 04 2011 00:02 frogurt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. I'm a vegan. I'm not a martyr, my life is great. I'm not suffering, I eat wholesomely. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I just don't like meat. I believe that the world would be better with a vegan human race but i'm not going to try and force my own beliefs. I respect meat eaters alternate views. Stop this stereotype that all vegans are liberal hardcores who don't eat meat out of elitism/spite and are constantly trying to 'convert' omnivores.
Just because I used a strong word to prove my point doesn't mean I think every vegan or vegetarian has an agenda. Although I still think that the fact that since your consciously denying yourself a type of food is personal suffering. If it wasn't personal suffering, no matter how small, I don't think you would even relaise you were a vegan/vegetarian and wouldn't label your self as one. You would just say you don't like meat.
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On June 04 2011 00:00 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. What about refusing to use slaves in a society where slavery is the norm? I dislike taking part in these shitfests but I am genuinely interested in how you can think like this.
I don't understand what you mean. Are you referring to animals as slaves or something?
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On June 03 2011 23:27 Tomkr wrote:
For those who point to science as a source of "proof" that meat-eating is good, you should go out and read Michael Pollan's "In Defence of Food", which shows that the science behind what we eat is pseudo-science at best, and industry-backed lies at worst. Another very good read with regards to eating animals is "Eating Animals" by Jonathan Saffran Foer.
That's a convenient argument that all scientific studies done on food are pseudo-science and "industry-backed lies". Granted, that stuff happens, but claiming all studies are fraudulent is denial(or cherry picking studies to suit your belief system).
BTW, I haven't read this guys' books and probably never will, but I am looking at an hour long youtube video of him right now. He's a pretty smart guy and I agree with him on most everything he has said. However, he is partially incorrect on a few subjects and his viewpoints are not ground breaking. Processed food is bad, tell me something I don't know.
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On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is.
What? I'm no vegetarian/vegan, but this is illogical. You're saying you can't understand why else they'd do it besides being martyrs? What if they don't want to eat meat. Damn martyrs!
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Are we talking about vegans or vegetarians? There is a difference.
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On June 04 2011 00:09 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:02 frogurt wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. I'm a vegan. I'm not a martyr, my life is great. I'm not suffering, I eat wholesomely. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I just don't like meat. I believe that the world would be better with a vegan human race but i'm not going to try and force my own beliefs. I respect meat eaters alternate views. Stop this stereotype that all vegans are liberal hardcores who don't eat meat out of elitism/spite and are constantly trying to 'convert' omnivores. Just because I used a strong word to prove my point doesn't mean I think every vegan or vegetarian has an agenda. Although I still think that the fact that since your consciously denying yourself a type of food is personal suffering. If it wasn't personal suffering, no matter how small, I don't think you would even relaise you were a vegan/vegetarian and wouldn't label your self as one. You would just say you don't like meat.
I don't deny myself meat, deny implies I want it. I find meat disgusting.
And no I don't label myself as a vegan to highlight my suffering. I do it because I'm proud of it. What I call myself is irrelevant.
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On June 04 2011 00:10 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:00 Puosu wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. What about refusing to use slaves in a society where slavery is the norm? I dislike taking part in these shitfests but I am genuinely interested in how you can think like this. I don't understand what you mean. Are you referring to animals as slaves or something?
He drew a parallel between animals and slaves. Which is reasonable because both animals and slaves are beings whose own welfare is disregarded in place of their owner's interests.
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You can be heterosexual even though you sleep with men sometimes.
No, you most certainly can not.
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If we become herbivores, I'd think our population problem will escalate. Eventually we'd either have to engineer a super predator that feeds on humans or occupy another planet.
I mean all herbivores in the wild are prone to predators at least some time in their lives. If we're going to live naturally, we'll need to be prone to predators too. As of now, no creature is truly a threat to us as we have guns to blow their heads off before they even come close.
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On June 03 2011 18:58 BackHo wrote:
If animals have rights, doesn’t that mean we have to intervene to stop animals from killing other animals, or that we must otherwise act affirmatively to prevent harm from coming to animals from any source?
No. The basic right not to be treated as a thing means that we cannot treat animals exclusively as means to human ends–just as we cannot treat other humans exclusively as means to the ends of other humans. Even though we have laws that prevent people from owning other humans, or using them as unconsenting biomedical subjects, we generally do not require that humans prevent harm to other humans in all situations. No law requires that Jane prevent Simon from inflicting harm on John, as long as Jane and Simon are not conspirators in a crime against John or otherwise acting in concert, and as long as Jane has no relationship with John that would give rise to such an obligation.
Moreover, in the United States at least, the law generally imposes on humans no “duty to aid” even when other humans are involved. If I am walking down the street and see a person lying passed out, face down in a small puddle of water and drowning, the law imposes no obligation on me to assist that person even if all I need to do is roll her over, something I can do without risk or serious inconvenience to myself.
The point is that the basic right of humans not to be treated as things does not guarantee that humans will aid other humans, or that we are obligated to intervene to prevent harm from coming to humans from animals or from other humans. Similarly, the basic right of animals not to be treated as things means that we cannot treat animals as our resources. It does not necessarily mean that we have moral or legal obligations to render them aid or to intervene to prevent harm from coming to them.
First bolded part is a redicolous argument if I ever saw one. Legal or not you have an obligation to help that person and you know it.
Second bolded part is good too. While I concede that it doesn't necessairly mean that we should lend aid, I will say that we should end a constant war between sentient beings, as that is really what your entire argument rests on (evident in the rest of you post which I didn't quote). Like humanitarian intervention, however selective or poorly executed it might be, so should animals be helped.
Or you could, of course, like me, realize that we're humans, animals have no rights (and lost out to evolution) and meat is really good.
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Hitler evil? What are you talking about? Have you even read Mein Kampf?
User was warned for this post
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On June 04 2011 00:00 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:57 Lexpar wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote:
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. This is the spark that lights the flame of my righteous fire. It's my birthday today, so instead of politely informing you about how you are wrong on all these points, I'll just let you live in your sad little world were nothing matters and no one does anything. Fair? Fair enough I forgot to put that it was my opinion, but looking at it from a strictly logical stand point what don't you agree with?
Okay TL birthday over. Thanks korean time.
My post was a little nasty. I don't really mean to be that harsh. It was mean to say that you live in a "sad little world"- but It's how your view points make me feel.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, or make me feel good, so I'll do what you asked and explain why- logically- your points don't make sense to me.
Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr.
This is untrue, but I understand why you think it. Most vegetarians and vegans live very full and fulfilling lives. The vast majority of us spend very little of our time suffering. Why I think you believe we are martyr's is because a vocal minority of vegans see themselves that way. The complain about few vegan choices at restaurants, they insist their friends and family cook for them at parties and social events, etc. It's my personal belief that I shouldn't inconvenience people at all because of my vegan choice. I don't tell people I am a vegetarian unless it comes up in conversation, or they're wondering why I won't eat a certain food. Some people see vegetarianism as part of the fiber of their being, of who they are- when the introduce themselves they bring it up. I see why these people would make you think that we are all martyrs who seek attention. Again, it's a vocal minority.
It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one.
This is a big one, but a diet low in saturated and trans fats, high in vitamins, minerals and protein is beneficial to almost everyone. Of course you can be an unhealthy vegan... lots of pasta and white bread is vegan... fatty spreads and oils are vegan. Being an unhealthy vegetarian is even easier with your access to butter, creme, and eggs, which open up a whole world of pastry sinfulness. Similarly, you can be an extremely healthy vegan/vegetarian. There are a few big misconceptions about the vegan/vegetarian diet.
1: You can't be healthy!
"The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada have stated that at all stages of life, a properly planned vegetarian diet is 'healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provides health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases'."
2: Certain nutrients are only found in meat!
Partly true. B12 vitamins and omega fatty acids are most easily found in meat. There are vegan alternatives, but they are unconventional in the American diet, and therefore seen (unfairly) as an unrealistic dietary alternative by many. For instance, Omega fatty acids are easiest to find in nuts and seeds for a vegan (flax particularly), whilst B12 vitamins are only found in fortified soy products and nutritional yeast. Do you have to go out of the way to get these nutrients? Yes. Is it impossible, or even difficult? No.
3: Vegan food is bland and boring!
Untrue. Like meat based cuisine, vegan and vegetarian food has the potential to be incredibly boring and bland, but skilled chefs and dedicated home cooks can make delicious meals with it.
It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one.
Supply and demand. For every 100 people who stop eating half a cow a year, 50 cows will (eventually) not be manufactured in a year by major factory farms. The correlation might not be immediately evident, but it makes zero financial sense to produce product that there is not a demand for. "But you're only 1 person!". Thats like saying" why vote? You're only one person." A lot of individuals getting together under one philosophy is how change is made. Maybe not quickly, but it's impossible not to.
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EPT
