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On June 04 2011 01:05 Matharos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 18:58 BackHo wrote: [ 1. The welfarist camp - those who believe that so long as animals are killed 'humanely' (although what is humane, as we would never kill a human) it is OK.
2. The abolitionist camp - those who believe that the meat industry should be outlawed altogether.
So I have a question... I usually only eat meat 2-3 times a week and the meat I do it is all locally raised and organic. I hate the way animals are treated through the use of factory food and I'm a firm believer in animal rights and welfare. so I guess I'm in the welfarist camp? Dos this make me an Ethical Vegan?
You're in the meateating camp. You can't eat meat and then call yourself a vegan/vegetarian.
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On June 04 2011 00:56 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:02 frogurt wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote: Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. I'm a vegan. I'm not a martyr, my life is great. I'm not suffering, I eat wholesomely. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I just don't like meat. I believe that the world would be better with a vegan human race but i'm not going to try and force my own beliefs. I respect meat eaters alternate views. Stop this stereotype that all vegans are liberal hardcores who don't eat meat out of elitism/spite and are constantly trying to 'convert' omnivores. You do realise that let's say tommorow the entire world wakes up vegan the first course of action would be to mass murder all cows, chickens, sheeps, pigs and many more animals right? Or did you think animals like domesticated cows can take care of themselves? You want someone to walk up and down and feed them maybe? Not really sure who would do that because the only reason we feed them at the moment is so they grow and a profit gets made on them. Excluding wild variants entire breeds of cows would have to be exterminated just because they no longer serve a purpose and keeping them alive for no reason is pointless. The picture that pops in your head when you think of pigs or cows are animals that can't survive without humans looking after them. The only reason these strange breeds exist is because humans made them through selective breeding. If people stop eating meat then these animals have pretty much lost their entire purpose. They can't survive without people and people no longer have a reason to take care of them. Slowly eradicating an entire breed of animals doesn't seem much nicer then the horrible treatment they receive in some facilities. But let's be realistic, how would you take care of this problem? Of all these billions of animals that we don't need but can't survive without humans looking after them. Take into account how there is no profit in them anymore and how you need to drastically expand the ammount of land they require if you want to stop keeping them in mass facilities.
You do realize that let's say tomorrow the entire wold wakes up a cannibal, the first course of action would be the mass murder of all humans, right?
Or do you think your friends and family can take care or themselves? You think someone will walk up and down and feed them? Not really sure who would do that, because the only thing we'll need them for tomorrow is subsentence.
Excluding celebrities, entire groups of blue and white color workers would have to be exterminated, as their original purpose would be trumped by their delicious taste and savory texture.
I'll stop now. I just think it's silly that you try to discredit an entire philosophical movement because you can think of an impossible hypothetical situation that would pose problems for it.
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On June 04 2011 00:56 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:02 frogurt wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote: Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. I'm a vegan. I'm not a martyr, my life is great. I'm not suffering, I eat wholesomely. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I just don't like meat. I believe that the world would be better with a vegan human race but i'm not going to try and force my own beliefs. I respect meat eaters alternate views. Stop this stereotype that all vegans are liberal hardcores who don't eat meat out of elitism/spite and are constantly trying to 'convert' omnivores. You do realise that let's say tommorow the entire world wakes up vegan the first course of action would be to mass murder all cows, chickens, sheeps, pigs and many more animals right? Or did you think animals like domesticated cows can take care of themselves? You want someone to walk up and down and feed them maybe? Not really sure who would do that because the only reason we feed them at the moment is so they grow and a profit gets made on them. Excluding wild variants entire breeds of cows would have to be exterminated just because they no longer serve a purpose and keeping them alive for no reason is pointless. The picture that pops in your head when you think of pigs or cows are animals that can't survive without humans looking after them. The only reason these strange breeds exist is because humans made them through selective breeding. If people stop eating meat then these animals have pretty much lost their entire purpose. They can't survive without people and people no longer have a reason to take care of them. Slowly eradicating an entire breed of animals doesn't seem much nicer then the horrible treatment they receive in some facilities. But let's be realistic, how would you take care of this problem? Of all these billions of animals that we don't need but can't survive without humans looking after them. Take into account how there is no profit in them anymore and how you need to drastically expand the ammount of land they require if you want to stop keeping them in mass facilities.
Wrong. All you've done is shown your economic ignorance. Livestock animals are only constantly bred on a repeated cycle BECAUSE of Western demand for fast food. If everyone became a vegan say one month from today and no more cows and pigs were artificially inseminated and chickens killed literally weeks after they're born, you'd find that a large percentage of animals on farms would have disappeared due to being slaughtered for food in that month.
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Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, no one is better than anyone else. Eat meat, don't eat meat, don't drink milk... whatever. This thread is basically about a vegan who wants to change peoples views, and it won't work. Just starts arguments, why is this even allowed on this website?
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Q: By equating speciesism with racism and sexism, don’t you equate animals, people of color, and women? That's kind of insulting. Why would we do that?
Q: If we become vegetarians, animals will inevitably be harmed when we plant vegetables, and what is the difference between raising and killing animals for food and unintentionally killing them as part of a plant-based agriculture? I think it's more important to say that if we become vegetarians, we'll stop breeding cows and stuff so their population will pretty much go extinct or almost. Meh!
Q: If you are in favor of abolishing the use of animals as human resources, don’t you care more about animals than you do about those humans with illnesses who might possibly be cured through animal research?
A: This question is logically and morally indistinguishable from that which asks whether those who advocated the abolition of human slavery cared less about the well-being of southerners who faced economic ruin if slavery were abolished than they did about the slaves. I get the feeling that you don't know what "logic" is. Also, calling it "morally indistinguishable" is only true if you presume equality, and I completely disagree with the idea that "animals are people too" (figuratively speaking, if you want.)
I value a human much more than I value an animal, and therefore I'd much rather see medicine tested on animals. "The end justifies the means", IMO, when the means are significantly less evil (again, in my opinion) than what would have happened if we hadn't done those unfortunate things. It sucks, but really medicine saves enough lives that I'm fine with the lesser evil. If they were tested on unwilling humans, I would be angry.
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The point that I always bring up though is this one - and I don't know if it applies to anyone who's posted in this thread but here goes. To the vegetarians/vegans who take a position where they claim to have the moral high ground, you should consider that you've merely chosen a battle among many. Most of you, in the west, still work and make an amount of money that could easily be qualified as "ridiculous". Here, we live well above "comfort".
While you get out of your way to only eat veggies despite the acquired functions of your digestive system, kids die in Africa and you don't bother to donate very much. Pollution is rampant - you probably drive, maybe short distances when you're lazy like the rest of us. With the money you used to buy that PS3, you could have done so much more...
I agree - eating meat may not be optimal in that it's a shame that animals die - sometimes in very horrible ways that have shaken me up, although that is not the norm. However, as westerners, we do an incredibly amount of "bad" things, and I don't believe that eating meat is a particularly terrible one. Why choose that battle over poverty and diseases in Africa?
I think that most moral arguments from vegetarians and vegans are very, very weak and that's why you guys need to ***appeal to emotion all the time with sick videos*** and weird premises that don't really work. Note that I have basically appealed to emotion in my post (sort of), and it's because I believe this is all the debate really is - for the most part.
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On June 04 2011 01:05 Matharos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 18:58 BackHo wrote: [ 1. The welfarist camp - those who believe that so long as animals are killed 'humanely' (although what is humane, as we would never kill a human) it is OK.
2. The abolitionist camp - those who believe that the meat industry should be outlawed altogether.
So I have a question... I usually only eat meat 2-3 times a week and the meat I do it is all locally raised and organic. I hate the way animals are treated through the use of factory food and I'm a firm believer in animal rights and welfare. so I guess I'm in the welfarist camp? Dos this make me an Ethical Vegan?
Have a look at this essay and see what you think:
+ Show Spoiler +A Contrast in Theory
The abolitionist approach is a rights-based approach that identifies the core issue of violence inflicted on innocent sentient beings as rooted in the fact that these beings are considered property, commodities, and “things” under the law. This property, commodity, and thing status is at the root of our “moral schizophrenia” regarding nonhuman beings. As long as nonhuman beings are considered “things” or commodities that we own instead of beings like us who have important interests in their lives, we will continue to torture and kill them by the tens of billions while we acknowledge that it would be horrific if someone did such things to young, orphaned children (despite the striking similarities in mentality, sentience, and innocence among nonhuman beings and young children). Therefore, the abolitionist approach as currently conceived advocates a single right for innocent sentient nonhumans: the right not to be property. But as long as we continue to consume the flesh and bodily fluids of these beings, this one right can never be achieved. Therefore, the only way we can break the socially-sanctioned perpetual holocaust and moral schizophrenia and work toward achieving the one right for nonhumans is to go vegan and encourage others to do the same. Therefore, as both a moral and practical matter, vegan education is the only activity that makes sense if our goal is to achieve a minimum standard of decency and civilization regarding nonhuman beings.
The new welfarist approach, in contrast to the abolitionist approach, is a utilitarian-based approach and a bizarre and confusing hodgepodge of traditional welfarism and “animal liberation” philosophy. On one hand, new welfarists want to “liberate” animals from the tyranny of “factory farms”. On the other hand, new welfarists (amazingly) see regulating the perpetual holocaust as one way to achieve such “liberation” (despite 200 years of welfarism resulting in ever increasing cruelty, both in the severity and the mind-boggling numbers of victims). New welfarists engage in ‘vegan’ education, but because treatment rather than use is the primary issue for them, new welfarists generally see veganism as a (temporary?) “boycott of cruelty” and as merely a(n) (optional?) “tool to reduce suffering” rather than as a minimum standard of decency.
The Road to Hell Is Paved with Good Intentions and a Permanent Non-profit Business Cycle: Welfarists “Versus” Industry’s Strength
Industry’s strength is its financial wealth and power, which translates into media, advertising, and information power, as well as political and legislative power. Industry’s weakness is that it is morally deplorable and environmentally disastrous (the eco-disaster will become ever more obvious as huge Asian markets increase demand for animal products). We cannot defeat an opponent of industry’s size and power by mostly avoiding their weakness and attempting to take on their strength, yet this is exactly what the new welfarist movement tries to do.
With welfare reform campaigns, the new welfarist movement seeks to at least weaken industry through legislation, and more ambitiously, legislate and regulate industry away. Most new welfarists call their approach the “two track” approach, and they believe that regulations are an integral part of ‘dismantling’ the giant. One track for them is ‘vegan’ education (albeit ‘vegan’ being merely a ‘boycott’ or ‘tool’); the other is welfare regulation.
But this approach of making welfare regulation a substantial part of eliminating animal agriculture plays to industry’s strength by 1) taking them on where they’re strong (in politics, legislation, and deal-making; see above), 2) diverting resources from the attack on where they are weak (diverting from vegan education), and 3) reinforcing the legal structure and regulated property rights paradigm that animal exploitation is founded upon.
As long as animals are considered property and commodities, it is impossible to balance their interests fairly against human interests. This is not “merely legal theory”, as some new welfarists claim it is (although even in legal theory alone the property status problem is overwhelmingly supported as insurmountable due to the legal trumping power of property rights over regulations, as a matter of the inherent hierarchy of legal concepts [which have very real consequences]).
Rather, we also have overwhelming empirical evidence that this is the case by observing the endless efforts over centuries to regulate chattel slavery, which remained viciously cruel to its very end. As additional evidence, animal welfare laws have been attempting to regulate use for 200 years now, and animals are treated more cruelly and in greater numbers now than ever.
Although we don’t need a slave history scholar to vouch for the utter failure of slave welfare laws and reforms, there is a preeminent non-vegan slave history legal scholar, Alan Watson, who entirely agrees with Gary Francione 1) on this historical empirical fact and 2) that the property status problem will prevent meaningful change in the use and treatment of animals until it is abolished. To quote Professor Francione in Animals As Persons (p. 162), “The interests of slaves will never be viewed as similar to the interests of slave owners. The interests of animals [who] are property will never be viewed as similar to those of human property owners.”
More and more regulations add a regulating structure to animal exploitation supported eventually by more bureaucracy, more inspector jobs, and more ‘legitimacy’ to the entire enterprise, entrenching animals ever deeper into property and commodity status. It’s true that more regulations put short-term profit margin pressure on industry, but industry is very resilient and has a number of options to restore the profit margins, including moving to less restrictive legal jurisdictions (including other international jurisdictions).
On top of regulations reinforcing the property/commodities paradigm, we should ask, what message do these welfare regulation campaigns send to the public? The message, when the regulations are promoted by so-called animal ‘rights’ organizations, is that animals are here for us to exploit and kill, we just have to do it more ‘humanely’ by regulating it more. Also, once the welfare law, regulation, or agreement is made (but usually not enforced), the false public perception is that we are exploiting and killing more ‘humanely’ (so you can feel a little better; after all, there are ‘inspectors’ looking after every animal as if she were his own daughter). Does it shift the paradigm at all? No, it obviously doesn’t. In fact, people feel better than ever about animals as commodities.
What motivation does a new welfarist organization have to do these campaigns? Victories! And the ‘victories’ lead to more donations, permanently supporting the organization’s basic business cycle. If the campaign is directly ‘against’ a particular exploiter, such as in the case of KFC Canada and PETA, PETA will actually do a public relations campaign on behalf of the exploiter as part of the deal. PETA wins with a ‘victory’ to brag about to their donors, leading to the endless cycle of more donations and campaigns. KFC Canada wins PETA approval. The customers win being happily duped into believing that KFC’s chickens are treated ‘humanely’. The animals? Well, PETA, KFC Canada, and KFC’s customers just struck a great deal; what more do you want?
Consider the case of HSUS (a traditional welfarist organization) and Farm Sanctuary and California’s Proposition 2 in November of 2008. HSUS and Farm Sanctuary bragged about getting Prop 2 passed, which doesn’t come into effect until 2015, and when and if it does, will not result in a significant decrease in suffering (especially compared to the public perception of the decrease). Further, if some exploiters don’t like Prop 2, they will merely relocate to another state or to Mexico and ship the product into California. For more on welfare and single-issue campaigns that are so popular with new welfarist organizations, see Picking the Low Hanging Fruit: What Is Wrong with Single-Issue Campaigns?
It is interesting to note that HSUS and PETA sell their welfare reforms to industry based on how profitable they will be for industry to implement, essentially acting as strategic advisers. Some of the welfare reforms, like “controlled atmosphere killing” and crate elimination, are things industry was planning on doing anyway for profitability. For solid evidence of the industry-welfarist partnership in action, see the various links in Four Problems with Welfare in a Nutshell.
Ultimately, as Gary Francione has said countless times, it is a zero-sum game. Every effort made and every dollar spent by a vegan or a pro-vegan organization on welfarism is effort and a dollar directed away from vegan education. Vegan education efforts are causally connected to welfare concerns, but the reverse is not true. Welfare concerns are not causally connected to vegan education. Only vegan education itself creates new vegans. Currently, far too much money and effort of the animal movement goes toward welfarism (for abolitionists, no resources should go to welfarism).
For more reading on this, the following are some links:
Gary Francione’s analysis of Prop 2
Gary Francione’s reply to new welfarist Martin Balluch
The Great ‘Victory’ of New Welfarism
The Industry-Welfarist Partnership
The Road to Justice Is Paved with Creative, Non-violent Vegan Education: Abolitionists Versus Industry’s Weakness
I stated in the previous section that the animal agriculture industry’s strength is its wealth and size, which results in political, legislative, media, and deal-making power. Its weakness is that it is morally deplorable and environmentally disastrous, and that vegan living is deeply satisfying, delightful, and healthy. Most people, however, are unaware of exactly what industry does; how cruel it is both in intensity and magnitude; what speciesism is and how identical it is to racism, sexism, heterosexism and other prejudices; and how, why, and in what specific ways industry is so disastrous to the environment. Most people are also unaware of how delicious and satisfying vegan food is, especially in 2009, with more options available than ever. The possibilities for education are immense, if only we would direct more resources toward them.
There are three (or four, depending on how you count them) prime areas of vegan education, which combined, would provide overwhelmingly strong, positive reasons for insisting on the permanent elimination of animal agriculture, and to which industry and the general public has no adequate rebuttal (“but they taste good” sounds absurd in light of these three areas of vegan education).
The Moral Issue
Two people of approximately similar intelligence, but of different race or sex should be granted equal consideration regarding their important interest in a university education based solely on their similar intelligence. The irrational cultural prejudice of racism and sexism ignores the morally relevant similarity of intelligence in favor of recognizing the irrelevant difference of race or sex.
In the same way, two beings of approximately equal sentience, but of different species should be granted equal consideration regarding their important interest in not being enslaved, exploited, or slaughtered based solely on their similar sentience. The irrational cultural prejudice of speciesism ignores the morally relevant similarity of similar sentience in favor of recognizing the irrelevant difference of species.
We are not very deep into moral philosophy here. Indeed, a dim-witted 10 year-old should not have any problem comprehending the moral argument above. Why doesn’t the animal rights and vegan movement broadcast this basic and irrefutable argument constantly over years, like a well-known advertisement, until it becomes part of the general public’s collective psyche, as a major component of vegan education? Industry’s only reply would be to restate their irrational prejudice. Granted, in our era, the public generally shares industry’s bigotry on the matter, but over time, it should be increasingly difficult to embrace the prejudice in any serious discussion. Eventually, the truth of the matter will weigh heavily on the conscience of decent people, and change will result, perhaps more rapidly than most of us might think likely today.
The Environmental Issue
As set forth in my blog essay entitled On the Environmental Disaster of Animal Agriculture and the important links therein, it is obvious that animal agriculture is the single worst enemy of the environment and a sustainable future.
As animal agribusiness grows into Asian and other markets, adding three billion or more people as customers and quadrupling the number of animals bred, raised, and slaughtered from the current number of approximately 50 billion annually, it is clear that the long-term effects (perhaps even the short-term effects) will bring the Earth’s biosphere into collapse. We simply cannot afford the gluttonous excesses that the combination of animal agriculture and modern technology has enabled. Our survival as a species depends on waking up to animal agriculture’s impact on the future.
Vegan Food and Nutrition
In addition to most people being completely ignorant of the shocking and horrific details of the lives of ‘food’ animals, speciesism, and the environmental disaster created by animal agriculture, most people have no idea what vegans eat or how nutritious and satisfying vegan diets are or can be. Fortunately, there are a lot of great vegan food blogs on the Net these days, and well-planned vegan diets are endorsed by the American Dietetic Association and similar mainstream, science-based organizations. But there is still tremendous untapped opportunity for vegan culinary and nutrition education, including education on deleterious effects of the standard American diet on public health, which is high in damaging animal fats, including cholesterol. Anybody who makes it easier for non-vegans to go vegan is doing effective vegan education in that respect.
Vegan Education and New Welfarists
As I stated in the previous section, new welfarists engage in what they call “two-track activism”, one track being vegan education and the other being welfare reform. So, as a secondary activity to welfare reform advocacy, new welfarists are already engaged in many activities that fall into the above categories. But to the extent that they spend time and money on welfare reform or single-issue campaigns when the opportunity for vegan education in society is so unimaginably vast, they inflict a severe opportunity cost on genuine societal progress. That’s not even to mention the confused and contradictory message they send that I mentioned above, which acts not merely to forgo opportunity, but is counterproductive and regressive.
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On June 04 2011 01:06 Aldehyde wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2011 01:05 Matharos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 18:58 BackHo wrote: [ 1. The welfarist camp - those who believe that so long as animals are killed 'humanely' (although what is humane, as we would never kill a human) it is OK.
2. The abolitionist camp - those who believe that the meat industry should be outlawed altogether.
So I have a question... I usually only eat meat 2-3 times a week and the meat I do it is all locally raised and organic. I hate the way animals are treated through the use of factory food and I'm a firm believer in animal rights and welfare. so I guess I'm in the welfarist camp? Dos this make me an Ethical Vegan? You're in the meateating camp. You can't eat meat and then call yourself a vegan/vegetarian.
damn I feel dirty
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Veganism is an odd thing to me. Is the use of anything from an animal forbidden? I am not a vegan or a vegitarian but the thought process of it is very intriguing. A lot of items in this world are manufactured from parts or part of an animal, are you not supposed to use those products?
You can break down a cow to be used in a ton of products most people use everyday. + Show Spoiler +
I know being a vegitarian is more geared towards not eating the meat, but vegans seem to have their different extremes of how far they go.
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Havent you left out the most important question?
Were do you draw the line? Here is the animal lovers hierarchy as I see it, mostly involves drawing a line on the capacity for the animal to suffer.
1) Humans (are animals after all) The definition of suffering is based on our own experiences. This generally involved us being aware of the sensation of our own suffering. Then become sympathetic to others suffering when we see outwardly sights of it similar to our own.
2) Apes, dogs, cute animals etc. These are animals that happen to have traits similar to our own. Apes just like like us in a superficial way, act in ways we may perceive to be like our own, domestic dogs evolved some interdependence with us, the list goes on. The sympathy for such animals is based on much the same way be have sympathy for the suffering of humans: apparent similarities to our own suffering.
3) Ugly animals, animals we have little dependence upon or relationship with, animals that do not exhibit much of a similarity to our own suffering. Sympathy for this category is based on our understanding of the similarities this group has to group 2. We respond to puppies on an emotional level, but not so much rat. We admire eagles, but not so much chickens. At the same time, we realize that these 2 animals share many physical and genetic characteristics. It seems irrational to care about one and not the other so we defend both. This grows to include all mammals, fish, birds, reptiles and so forth
4) This level includes bees, insects, bugs, worms, spiders, etc. Major plants such as trees are also defended. All life is sacred and should be preserved as much as possible. Its acceptable to take food from plants, as long it helps them; i.e. eating fruit helps tress reproduce by spreading their seeds. These lifeforms may still exhibit behavior that suggests suffering, such as a beetle squirming, tree excreting sap or other visible responses to their destruction. These may also be defended on the basis that they support the well-being of animals higher up.
5) This is a hypothetical category; no one is a part of it (except maybe organisms that are a part of it!). This would include micro-organisms and minor plants. We classify these things into discrete categories, but evolution is a continuous process and I recognize that there is going to be overlap in these categories.
My main question is how you can, in light of this, separate these categories logically or on anything other than your own personal emotion.
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On June 03 2011 23:37 minhchi1211 wrote: "you were once vegone, now you will be gone!"
Yeah I loved that scene in Scott Pilgrim
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On June 04 2011 00:30 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:00 haffy wrote:On June 03 2011 23:57 Lexpar wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote: Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. This is the spark that lights the flame of my righteous fire. It's my birthday today, so instead of politely informing you about how you are wrong on all these points, I'll just let you live in your sad little world were nothing matters and no one does anything. Fair? Fair enough I forgot to put that it was my opinion, but looking at it from a strictly logical stand point what don't you agree with? Okay TL birthday over. Thanks korean time. My post was a little nasty. I don't really mean to be that harsh. It was mean to say that you live in a "sad little world"- but It's how your view points make me feel. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, or make me feel good, so I'll do what you asked and explain why- logically- your points don't make sense to me. This is untrue, but I understand why you think it. Most vegetarians and vegans live very full and fulfilling lives. The vast majority of us spend very little of our time suffering. Why I think you believe we are martyr's is because a vocal minority of vegans see themselves that way. The complain about few vegan choices at restaurants, they insist their friends and family cook for them at parties and social events, etc. It's my personal belief that I shouldn't inconvenience people at all because of my vegan choice. I don't tell people I am a vegetarian unless it comes up in conversation, or they're wondering why I won't eat a certain food. Some people see vegetarianism as part of the fiber of their being, of who they are- when the introduce themselves they bring it up. I see why these people would make you think that we are all martyrs who seek attention. Again, it's a vocal minority. This is a big one, but a diet low in saturated and trans fats, high in vitamins, minerals and protein is beneficial to almost everyone. Of course you can be an unhealthy vegan... lots of pasta and white bread is vegan... fatty spreads and oils are vegan. Being an unhealthy vegetarian is even easier with your access to butter, creme, and eggs, which open up a whole world of pastry sinfulness. Similarly, you can be an extremely healthy vegan/vegetarian. There are a few big misconceptions about the vegan/vegetarian diet. 1: You can't be healthy! "The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada have stated that at all stages of life, a properly planned vegetarian diet is 'healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provides health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases'." 2: Certain nutrients are only found in meat! Partly true. B12 vitamins and omega fatty acids are most easily found in meat. There are vegan alternatives, but they are unconventional in the American diet, and therefore seen (unfairly) as an unrealistic dietary alternative by many. For instance, Omega fatty acids are easiest to find in nuts and seeds for a vegan (flax particularly), whilst B12 vitamins are only found in fortified soy products and nutritional yeast. Do you have to go out of the way to get these nutrients? Yes. Is it impossible, or even difficult? No. 3: Vegan food is bland and boring! Untrue. Like meat based cuisine, vegan and vegetarian food has the potential to be incredibly boring and bland, but skilled chefs and dedicated home cooks can make delicious meals with it. Supply and demand. For every 100 people who stop eating half a cow a year, 50 cows will (eventually) not be manufactured in a year by major factory farms. The correlation might not be immediately evident, but it makes zero financial sense to produce product that there is not a demand for. "But you're only 1 person!". Thats like saying" why vote? You're only one person." A lot of individuals getting together under one philosophy is how change is made. Maybe not quickly, but it's impossible not to.
Thanks for replying in great detail. But I'm going to have to reply in short otherwise I'll get too much of my opinion into the argument. And since I have never been a vegetarian or vegan it will just be too biased.
1. I used a pretty harsh word by saying martyr, but it does sum up what I think vegans/vegetarians go through. Even if it is easy for some people to be a vegetarian/vegan, I think they would have some urge to eat some sort of food that contained meat. Which is why even though it may be very small for some people, I think there is personal suffering for everyone who decides to be a vegan/vegetarian.
2. Sorry for such a short reply to this part. But my point was it is not a benefit to be a vegan/vegetarian. Meaning you would gain something from becoming one. This is just a list of ways to cut down on the disadvantages of becoming one.
3. I think your right on this point and I exaggerated my point. But I think there is more effective ways of cutting down on meat production by reducing how much everyone eats meat rather than a select few stopping completely.
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Tree killer, I think thats your hierarchy of animals. Mine goes something like
Humans.
Vertebrates.
Invertebrates.
Why? Because it's our dense nervous system that allows us to feel pain and emotion. This list basically goes in order from how likely an animal is to feel pain end emotion in a similar way to us. Animals without a spinal column or well developed nervous system have a much much lower chance of having the ability to feel pain or emotion. Of course, its very difficult to be 100% sure that any animals experience pain or emotion like we do.
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I just love the viewpoint of those that are up in arms about animal brutality who aren't vegetarians. "I got no problem with killing and eating animals, but heaven forbid that they have crappy living conditions, that's just monstrous!" Man is an animal, the only difference between us and the other species is that we're smart enough to farm them and not vice versa.
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"There is a vegetarian option..
You can fuck off".
<3 Frankie Boyle
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On June 04 2011 01:11 Matharos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 01:06 Aldehyde wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2011 01:05 Matharos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 18:58 BackHo wrote: [ 1. The welfarist camp - those who believe that so long as animals are killed 'humanely' (although what is humane, as we would never kill a human) it is OK.
2. The abolitionist camp - those who believe that the meat industry should be outlawed altogether.
So I have a question... I usually only eat meat 2-3 times a week and the meat I do it is all locally raised and organic. I hate the way animals are treated through the use of factory food and I'm a firm believer in animal rights and welfare. so I guess I'm in the welfarist camp? Dos this make me an Ethical Vegan? You're in the meateating camp. You can't eat meat and then call yourself a vegan/vegetarian. damn I feel dirty
How so? You're supporting local businesses and it's organic. You're doing more than most. Don't see why you should have to feel dirty just because you're eating meat.
Here's a video of how a small local slaughterhouse does its work. Nothing like those sensational videos that always come up in these threads. http://vimeo.com/22077752
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On June 04 2011 01:20 Aldehyde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 01:11 Matharos wrote:On June 04 2011 01:06 Aldehyde wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2011 01:05 Matharos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 18:58 BackHo wrote: [ 1. The welfarist camp - those who believe that so long as animals are killed 'humanely' (although what is humane, as we would never kill a human) it is OK.
2. The abolitionist camp - those who believe that the meat industry should be outlawed altogether.
So I have a question... I usually only eat meat 2-3 times a week and the meat I do it is all locally raised and organic. I hate the way animals are treated through the use of factory food and I'm a firm believer in animal rights and welfare. so I guess I'm in the welfarist camp? Dos this make me an Ethical Vegan? You're in the meateating camp. You can't eat meat and then call yourself a vegan/vegetarian. damn I feel dirty How so? You're supporting local businesses and it's organic. You're doing more than most. Don't see why you should have to feel dirty just because you're eating meat. Here's a video of how a small local slaughterhouse does its work. Nothing like those sensational videos that always come up in these threads. http://vimeo.com/22077752
I love that video. I wish all meat production happened respectfully and locally like this man does.
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On June 04 2011 01:08 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:56 zalz wrote:On June 04 2011 00:02 frogurt wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote: Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. I'm a vegan. I'm not a martyr, my life is great. I'm not suffering, I eat wholesomely. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I just don't like meat. I believe that the world would be better with a vegan human race but i'm not going to try and force my own beliefs. I respect meat eaters alternate views. Stop this stereotype that all vegans are liberal hardcores who don't eat meat out of elitism/spite and are constantly trying to 'convert' omnivores. You do realise that let's say tommorow the entire world wakes up vegan the first course of action would be to mass murder all cows, chickens, sheeps, pigs and many more animals right? Or did you think animals like domesticated cows can take care of themselves? You want someone to walk up and down and feed them maybe? Not really sure who would do that because the only reason we feed them at the moment is so they grow and a profit gets made on them. Excluding wild variants entire breeds of cows would have to be exterminated just because they no longer serve a purpose and keeping them alive for no reason is pointless. The picture that pops in your head when you think of pigs or cows are animals that can't survive without humans looking after them. The only reason these strange breeds exist is because humans made them through selective breeding. If people stop eating meat then these animals have pretty much lost their entire purpose. They can't survive without people and people no longer have a reason to take care of them. Slowly eradicating an entire breed of animals doesn't seem much nicer then the horrible treatment they receive in some facilities. But let's be realistic, how would you take care of this problem? Of all these billions of animals that we don't need but can't survive without humans looking after them. Take into account how there is no profit in them anymore and how you need to drastically expand the ammount of land they require if you want to stop keeping them in mass facilities. You do realize that let's say tomorrow the entire wold wakes up a cannibal, the first course of action would be the mass murder of all humans, right? Or do you think your friends and family can take care or themselves? You think someone will walk up and down and feed them? Not really sure who would do that, because the only thing we'll need them for tomorrow is subsentence. Excluding celebrities, entire groups of blue and white color workers would have to be exterminated, as their original purpose would be trumped by their delicious taste and savory texture. I'll stop now. I just think it's silly that you try to discredit an entire philosophical movement because you can think of an impossible hypothetical situation that would pose problems for it.
Maybe try taking it up with the guy that started by saying the world would be better if everyone was vegan? I just went off what he said if you have a problem with the premise you need to take that up with the guy that set it in the first place.
Wrong. All you've done is shown your economic ignorance. Livestock animals are only constantly bred on a repeated cycle BECAUSE of Western demand for fast food. If everyone became a vegan say one month from today and no more cows and pigs were artificially inseminated and chickens killed literally weeks after they're born, you'd find that a large percentage of animals on farms would have disappeared due to being slaughtered for food in that month.
Ofcourse, those damn westerners! Always coming up with clever ways of torturing live animals just because they can't help themselves. Ooh wait, meat is an expensive food product so it's logically going to be consumed more by the richest part of the world.
And what are you even talking about? The situation was an all-vegan world so logically no animals would be slaughtered for food. We have to kill them all because they are pointless and nobody is gonna take care of billions of animals and give away millions of acres of land to house them all without any monetary payoff.
If the entire world became vegan in the course of a month this would not change anything. If you let the animal be free then they would continue to breed but they can't find food for themselves and their numbers are too great for them to just graze off the land. We are talking about releasing several billion animals into the wild where they can't survive.
Maybe you want to keep them in big open field farms? That still leaves you with two problems. First up, you would need many more people then the food industry currently has to take care of them all because open field farms are more work intensive. Problem is nobody is gonna work in a non-profit industry for animals, not on the scale that you need. Second problem is that you don't have any money. The animals don't make money and taking care of them will never pay itself off.
You would have to massacre all the animals to a reasonable sustainable level or you would have to create a situation in wich you slowly let them die off wich would still force you sterilize the majority of the animals.
These animals only exist because there is a demand for them. Remove the demand and you remove the need for these animals to exist and with it any motivation for people to take care of them. You don't have enough animal lovers that want to work for free.
What else you want to do? Feed and maintain billions of pointless animals on government funds? Seems rather sick to be paying for animal feed when actuall humans are starving.
I am all for good treatment of animals but you can't pretend like these animals can live on if people don't want to eat them.
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On June 04 2011 01:28 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 01:08 Lexpar wrote:On June 04 2011 00:56 zalz wrote:On June 04 2011 00:02 frogurt wrote:On June 03 2011 23:52 haffy wrote: Being a vegetarian or vegan is just being a martyr. It doesn't benefit them in the slightest to become one. It doesn't help animals in the slightest to become one. It's just personal suffering to prove a point. Although I have no idea what that point is. I'm a vegan. I'm not a martyr, my life is great. I'm not suffering, I eat wholesomely. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I just don't like meat. I believe that the world would be better with a vegan human race but i'm not going to try and force my own beliefs. I respect meat eaters alternate views. Stop this stereotype that all vegans are liberal hardcores who don't eat meat out of elitism/spite and are constantly trying to 'convert' omnivores. You do realise that let's say tommorow the entire world wakes up vegan the first course of action would be to mass murder all cows, chickens, sheeps, pigs and many more animals right? Or did you think animals like domesticated cows can take care of themselves? You want someone to walk up and down and feed them maybe? Not really sure who would do that because the only reason we feed them at the moment is so they grow and a profit gets made on them. Excluding wild variants entire breeds of cows would have to be exterminated just because they no longer serve a purpose and keeping them alive for no reason is pointless. The picture that pops in your head when you think of pigs or cows are animals that can't survive without humans looking after them. The only reason these strange breeds exist is because humans made them through selective breeding. If people stop eating meat then these animals have pretty much lost their entire purpose. They can't survive without people and people no longer have a reason to take care of them. Slowly eradicating an entire breed of animals doesn't seem much nicer then the horrible treatment they receive in some facilities. But let's be realistic, how would you take care of this problem? Of all these billions of animals that we don't need but can't survive without humans looking after them. Take into account how there is no profit in them anymore and how you need to drastically expand the ammount of land they require if you want to stop keeping them in mass facilities. You do realize that let's say tomorrow the entire wold wakes up a cannibal, the first course of action would be the mass murder of all humans, right? Or do you think your friends and family can take care or themselves? You think someone will walk up and down and feed them? Not really sure who would do that, because the only thing we'll need them for tomorrow is subsentence. Excluding celebrities, entire groups of blue and white color workers would have to be exterminated, as their original purpose would be trumped by their delicious taste and savory texture. I'll stop now. I just think it's silly that you try to discredit an entire philosophical movement because you can think of an impossible hypothetical situation that would pose problems for it. Maybe try taking it up with the guy that started by saying the world would be better if everyone was vegan? I just went off what he said if you have a problem with the premise you need to take that up with the guy that set it in the first place. Show nested quote +Wrong. All you've done is shown your economic ignorance. Livestock animals are only constantly bred on a repeated cycle BECAUSE of Western demand for fast food. If everyone became a vegan say one month from today and no more cows and pigs were artificially inseminated and chickens killed literally weeks after they're born, you'd find that a large percentage of animals on farms would have disappeared due to being slaughtered for food in that month. + Show Spoiler +Ofcourse, those damn westerners! Always coming up with clever ways of torturing live animals just because they can't help themselves. Ooh wait, meat is an expensive food product so it's logically going to be consumed more by the richest part of the world.
And what are you even talking about? The situation was an all-vegan world so logically no animals would be slaughtered for food. We have to kill them all because they are pointless and nobody is gonna take care of billions of animals and give away millions of acres of land to house them all without any monetary payoff.
If the entire world became vegan in the course of a month this would not change anything. If you let the animal be free then they would continue to breed but they can't find food for themselves and their numbers are too great for them to just graze off the land. We are talking about releasing several billion animals into the wild where they can't survive.
Maybe you want to keep them in big open field farms? That still leaves you with two problems. First up, you would need many more people then the food industry currently has to take care of them all because open field farms are more work intensive. Problem is nobody is gonna work in a non-profit industry for animals, not on the scale that you need. Second problem is that you don't have any money. The animals don't make money and taking care of them will never pay itself off.
You would have to massacre all the animals to a reasonable sustainable level or you would have to create a situation in wich you slowly let them die off wich would still force you sterilize the majority of the animals.
These animals only exist because there is a demand for them. Remove the demand and you remove the need for these animals to exist and with it any motivation for people to take care of them. You don't have enough animal lovers that want to work for free.
What else you want to do? Feed and maintain billions of pointless animals on government funds? Seems rather sick to be paying for animal feed when actuall humans are starving.
I am all for good treatment of animals but you can't pretend like these animals can live on if people don't want to eat them.
I had never thought about what you're saying here. I'll add that to my list of counter-arguments for my next debate about this with people. I can't think of any good way to do anything about what you're saying.
Thanks.
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On June 04 2011 01:28 zalz wrote:
Again you're blinding yourself to economic reality. The number of animals in the world would be drastically reduced BECAUSE of people becoming vegans. Less demand = less supply being produced. As I said - most livestock animals are artificially bred - they do not naturally breed to such an extent in nature. To take an example, sows are kept continually pregnant throughout their six year life cycle - one pregnancy after another, going from sow crate to farrowing crate to sow crate, over and over until they die. In the wild they would generally only get pregnant once or twice, not dozens of times during their lifetime until they die an early death due to the repeated pregnancies. Likewise with cows. Their natural lifespan is up to 30 years yet they usually die after 10 after being forced to be constantly pregnant through artificial insemination. Think about it logically - if you got a human female to give birth every year with no rest in between, she would eventually die early due to exhaustion as well. And all this just to meet human demand for meat.
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