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On May 28 2011 00:51 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 00:49 zedi wrote:On May 28 2011 00:43 vyyye wrote:
If I was him I'd go and pretend I was praying instead of trying to act like a little douchebag. Jesus Christ, some people. I haven't been Christian in any part of my life but I didn't whine when I was asked to participate in Christian traditions.
What the fuck is wrong with people. I mean.. what's it matter? Really, what does a prayer change?
That said the reaction from the community is even more mind boggling. Tards on both sides of the fence. Acting against illegality and immorality is acting like a douchebag? Guess I'd rather be a douchebag then. If the kid didn't have to become a real party pooper there would never have been an issue. Do you really think he gave two fucks about upholding the law? I can see his anger considering how retarded the community around him seems to be, but come on, he knew nothing good would come out of it. Teens love to be rebellious for the sake of being rebellious.
It doesn't matter why he did what he did, the school was doing something clearly against the law and must stop doing so. It is irresponsible of the other members of the community to have not taken action earlier to uphold the law that and let it come to this; if they had respected the constitution in the first place, there would be no issue as the blatantly illegal prayer would never have been part of the ceremony.
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On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:28 krbz wrote:On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:15 atheistaphobe wrote:
[quote]
Social Sciences prove again and again that devout Christians live a healthier life and that prayer has an effect.
Atheism is nothing. It cannot be proved.
. What about atheism have to be proved. I actually really don't get that :S Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god. Theism is the "belief" that their is a god. They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly. Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. ^aka - The logical choice. Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism. But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist. Unless you can show me proof for either. Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain
Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man.
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On May 28 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:28 krbz wrote:On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote:
[quote]
What about atheism have to be proved.
I actually really don't get that :S Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god. Theism is the "belief" that their is a god. They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly. Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. ^aka - The logical choice. Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism. But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist. Unless you can show me proof for either. Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man.
Unless you're agnostic, in which case you don't know whether or not there is a god.
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Stupid reaction to a stupid kid. Not big surprise. If he's being disruptive, just throw him out for the time being. No need to go into super saiyan uproar about it.
On May 28 2011 00:52 Tony Campolo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 00:45 vyyye wrote:On May 28 2011 00:44 Tony Campolo wrote:
It's actually shocking how many people on TL are Christians and proud of it, and argue in these religious threads claiming that these are only cases of 'extreme' fundamentalists. Anyone who is a true Christian shouldn't be playing Starcraft but instead spending their lives trying to save souls. Imagine this, that if you truly believe that someone who doesn't believe in God is going to go to Hell for all eternity, then it's actually grossly irresponsible and callous to be spending your life playing computer games when all these people are going to Hell if you don't somehow manage to convince them to give their lives to God. All it shows is that they don't truly realise the extent of the horrificacy of what they claim to believe. You really should read up on Christianity, I don't think you have a good grasp of what it means to be Christian in the 21st century. Is playing Starcraft how Jesus would have wanted you to live your life?
To quote the Thor:
"I SAY YES!" However, playing SC is actually a small part of my life, so surely I can't see how ANYONE half-reasonable would have a protest with it except PETA trying to say that massacring the Zerg insectoids is inhumane  . I don't mean this against Zerg players, just to the Zerg species in lore  .
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On May 28 2011 01:05 Tony Campolo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:00 poorbeggarman wrote: On May 28 2011 00:27 Metaphysic wrote:
I really don't understand people who think he should've just shut up and suffered through it. Do those same people think Rosa Parks should've just sat in the back of the bus like she was supposed to?
If not, then why not? The kid is actually trying to uphold the law, while Rosa Parks was breaking the law. Wouldn't your support for Parks be worse? Suffer? Suffer what? A bunch of people going "our father who art in heaven..bla bla bla"? And how long do you think they're gonna go on and on for? 30 mins? an HOUR? Its just a bunch of people mumbling for 5 minutes at most. If it bothers him THAT much, he needs psychiatric help. Rosa parks was defiant against the biased treatment she got due to being an african-american. Atheists aren't oppressed in a similar manner. This kid actually tried too hard to be a prick. According to Christianity atheists are oppressed in the afterlife by serving a life sentence (with torture) in Hell.
And so what? How does that afterlife oppression affect atheists who are still alive?(who incidentally believe that their conciousness and being will be extinguished upon death)
Your reply post is irrelevant, make a better argument.
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On May 28 2011 01:11 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:28 krbz wrote:
[quote]
Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god.
Theism is the "belief" that their is a god.
They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly.
Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.
^aka - The logical choice. Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism. But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist. Unless you can show me proof for either. Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man. Unless you're agnostic, in which case you don't know whether or not there is a god.
Dude are you just trolling me now? Belief=/=knowledge...
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On May 28 2011 01:12 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:11 RoosterSamurai wrote:On May 28 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:
[quote]
Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism.
But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist.
Unless you can show me proof for either.
Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man. Unless you're agnostic, in which case you don't know whether or not there is a god. Dude are you just trolling me now? Belief=/=knowledge...
Sigh....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
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On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:
On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:
Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in Zeus. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist.
My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small".
So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain
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On May 28 2011 01:05 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 00:59 mcc wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:28 krbz wrote:On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:15 atheistaphobe wrote:On May 27 2011 15:08 krbz wrote:
Christianity is backed up by "stories" compiled into a book. The history is only of the stories and completely untestable. I would also like to add that they are stories from an age that had very little understanding of the world around them. They couldn't explain things so they created something to provide that explanation.
Scientific theory cannot take divine power into consideration as it cannot be subjected to testing and verified by multiple parties. It cannot stand in a scientific setting because all a religious follower can present is the book the have "faith" in. Social Sciences prove again and again that devout Christians live a healthier life and that prayer has an effect. Atheism is nothing. It cannot be proved. . What about atheism have to be proved. I actually really don't get that :S Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god. Theism is the "belief" that their is a god. They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly. Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. ^aka - The logical choice. Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism. But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist. Unless you can show me proof for either. Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Meaning of Life and Life itself is pretty hard to explain. Where does everything come from? Why am I here? etc. All question not answered by scientist. Even the Big Bang does not explain why everything is as it is. Why particles behave as they do. Gravitrons, Higgs Bosons or whatever. Where do the rules come from? And if you can point that out, I'll probably answer with " and why is that?" and you would have the next task. Physics does a decent job of explaining rules. but not where they come from. So whenever somebody asks me about all this I just say I don't freakin know, how can I? and this position is absolutely distinct from there can't be a god. Cause there can be one. or two. or we're just an experiment. or this is a pretty cool video game of the future and you wake up when u die. And if they ask me what I think is the most possible solution is, I'll answer with " I DON'T FREAKIN KNOW" and get me a beer. e: added stuff Nope he has it right to some degree, in a dichotomy : 1) I believe in god 2) I lack the belief in god there is no third logical position unless you don't even know what you are thinking, but than there is a different problem. You are thinking about : 1) There is a god 2) There is no god in this case the third position "I don't know" exists. But even in that case it is not really a good position. As for the questions about meaning. Are you sure those are actually sensible questions. There are many gramatically correct questions that are nonsensical and I suspect most questions about meaning of life and universe are of the same nature. That our language allows us to construct a question does not mean that question has an answer or even makes sense. Let me put it this way: 1) I believe that everything just randomly appeared with a pretty descent set of rules of physics. 2) I lack the believe that everything just randomly appeared with a pretty descent set of rules of physics. You see that you can see it from a different point of view. And too me both concerns are vivid and require faith. So I don't think about it. and to the person who said something about easter bunnies. Why don't you get that the world is kind of a wonder and pretty cool for pure randomness and there might exist a point of view where the absence of higher entities is just as unlikely as a god. There are enough points scientist will never explain.
You changed the questions to mean something else than the questions I posted. But from your posts it is pretty clear that you have no understanding of difference between those two scenarios I described, but let me try again.
Your refusal to answer does not change anything. The answer still exists, because in the first case there are only two mutually exclusive positions and each human falls into one category or another. It is logical impossibility for it to exist a third position. There is no third position in a question if you believe in god. The third position can be only to a question if you think god exists. You seem to not understand a distinction between those two questions and you seem to think that believing in god and saying god exists are the same.
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On May 28 2011 01:12 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:05 Tony Campolo wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 poorbeggarman wrote: On May 28 2011 00:27 Metaphysic wrote:
I really don't understand people who think he should've just shut up and suffered through it. Do those same people think Rosa Parks should've just sat in the back of the bus like she was supposed to?
If not, then why not? The kid is actually trying to uphold the law, while Rosa Parks was breaking the law. Wouldn't your support for Parks be worse? Suffer? Suffer what? A bunch of people going "our father who art in heaven..bla bla bla"? And how long do you think they're gonna go on and on for? 30 mins? an HOUR? Its just a bunch of people mumbling for 5 minutes at most. If it bothers him THAT much, he needs psychiatric help. Rosa parks was defiant against the biased treatment she got due to being an african-american. Atheists aren't oppressed in a similar manner. This kid actually tried too hard to be a prick. According to Christianity atheists are oppressed in the afterlife by serving a life sentence (with torture) in Hell. And so what? How does that afterlife oppression affect atheists who are still alive?(who incidentally believe that their conciousness and being will be extinguished upon death) Your reply post is irrelevant, make a better argument.
You said atheists aren't oppressed like Rosa Parks. I'd say if Christianity was true and God was real, then the ETERNAL oppression atheists suffer is far worse than a lifetime of suffering for blacks.
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I always found Religion did more harm than good and this is a perfect example for it. As long as religion is a strictly personal matter I`m absolutly fine with it, but when it has influence on other people lives it is too much. I am currently reading "the god delusion" by Richard Dawkins and I recommend everybody to read it. On the other side everybody should read the Bible/Koran as well, because it is always better to have an opinion about things you have informed yourself about.
I feel so sorry for the Boy in this story for what his parents did to him. I mean there are a lot of idiots out there, but when science fiction or fantasy storys (as all religious storys are) cause hate, mistrust and devide people instead of uniting them, they simply need to vanish.
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I would compare this with Tiananmen square
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On May 28 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:28 krbz wrote:On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote:
[quote]
What about atheism have to be proved.
I actually really don't get that :S Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god. Theism is the "belief" that their is a god. They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly. Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. ^aka - The logical choice. Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism. But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist. Unless you can show me proof for either. Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man.
No they are not. Maybe from your point of view. I just don't rule him out. Nor do I say that I believe in him. I just don't know. I can't answer the "Do you believe in God question" either!
Here's an analogy for you. Might not be how you see it, but for me it's kind of the same:
"Do you believe that I wear pink socks right now?". How would u answer? Probably with "I don't know" cause you can't. You just don't know enough (Although pink socks might seem unlikely).
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 28 2011 01:16 zul wrote:
I always found Religion did more harm than good and this is a perfect example for it. As long as religion is a strictly personal matter I`m absolutly fine with it, but when it has influence on other people lives it is too much. I am currently reading "the god delusion" by Richard Dawkins and I recommend everybody to read it. On the other side everybody should read the Bible/Koran as well, because it is always better to have an opinion about things you have informed yourself about.
I feel so sorry for the Boy in this story for what his parents did to him. I mean there are a lot of idiots out there, but when science fiction or fantasy storys (as all religious storys are) cause hate, mistrust and devide people instead of uniting them, they simply need to vanish.
Time for Atheists to petition their governments to get rid of Christians working as doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants, engineers. Yes Christians are in the workplace and yes they have ulterior motives: they want to love you and intercede for you, that God may have mercy on your soul before Last Day. Nothing is more important to a genuine Christian than to see his friends, mates, colleagues and family come to maturity in Christ Jesus Amen.
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On May 28 2011 01:14 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:12 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:11 RoosterSamurai wrote:On May 28 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
"Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man. Unless you're agnostic, in which case you don't know whether or not there is a god. Dude are you just trolling me now? Belief=/=knowledge... Sigh.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
Agnosticism and atheism/theism are not mutually exclusive. I am an agnostic atheist. Even strong agnostics are either theists or atheists, there is no other position.
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On May 28 2011 01:19 Jayjay54 wrote:
No they are not. Maybe from your point of view. I just don't rule Zeus out. Nor do I say that I believe in him. I just don't know.
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On May 28 2011 01:11 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:28 krbz wrote:
[quote]
Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god.
Theism is the "belief" that their is a god.
They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly.
Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.
^aka - The logical choice. Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism. But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist. Unless you can show me proof for either. Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man. Unless you're agnostic, in which case you don't know whether or not there is a god.
But you know if you believe in him or not. There is a difference between those two question. One is asking about state of the outside world and for such questions answer "I do not know" is valid although sometimes stupid. The second question is about the state of your consciousness. If you cannot answer that, something is wrong.
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On May 28 2011 00:58 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 00:27 NoobSh1t wrote:On May 28 2011 00:21 craz3d wrote:On May 27 2011 13:39 aguy38 wrote:
He didn't have to pray. He could have just sat there. If you read the second line of the article it makes it sound like he said the majority should be stopped on account of him. Did they overreact to him? Hell yea they did, but at some point he should have had the common sense to just not say anything. I agree with you. What a selfish act. Why ruin everyone's fun just because you are the only one opposed to the prayer? Looks like even non-religious people can be intolerant of other religions, who woulda thunk it? Lol a selfish act? Ok so tell me this, is it selfish to stop a group of bullies from picking on a kid? You're ruining their fun. He stopped and illegal school-sponsored prayer if you really wanted to pray go fucking do it on your own time. He spoke out against something that wasn't right. He unlike most people isn't a fucking coward. Okay, but is prayer hurting anyone? The bullies are hurting the kid in your example. Anyways, you're right, it's hard to ignore the fact that this prayer was illegal; however did he act out of care for the law, or did he act because he wanted to screw the other 99% of people who were for the prayer or possibly as a cry for attention?
He just wanted to screw them over and feel better then they are. Bunch of idiots vs 1 bigger idiot, all it was imo.
Bet if they just really wanted to sing the national anthem or w/e and some deuchy kid found a way to ruin their fun they'd treat him the same way.
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I just have to shake my head at the people that are calling this kid a smartass, it's a very hard thing to grow up in the bible belt in the US in a religious family and at the same time shun religion. Believe me I know what it's like.
When I was 9 years old in vacation bible school the youth pastor tells all the kids that one day you'll have to give your life to christ and it's something that we can do today. I remember thinking that I could never do that at that point. I remember praying every night when I was a little kid and going through like a 20 - 30 person list of people asking god to protect each one of them because I thought that if I missed someone they would die. When I was 13-14 after going to church pretty much weekly my entire life and being part of a very religious family, I came to the personal decision that this was nonsensical and I wasn't going to buy into it anymore. It took me three years to tell my family (just my immediate family) and I did it in the heat of an argument. While they fortunately didn't disown me we haven't broached the subject since and I know that they like to think that I was just trying to get under their skin. I still talk to my religious grandmother pretty often and I make up stories about going to church because she's worried about the well being of my eternal soul.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in the US and especially in the evangelical bordering on radical religious culture that encompass parts of it, coming out as an atheist is a very hard thing to do. The only reason that we don't see more discrimination of atheists is because it's a pretty easy thing to hide, unlike discrimination based on race or sexual orientation. The most under-represented group in government right now is probably atheists as I don't believe that any confirmed atheists hold any national elected positions (though I'm sure there are plenty of closet ones). It was a really big deal when Obama mentioned non-believers in his inauguration speech.
So going back to this situation in particular, when a public institution like a high school officially endorses a christian prayer or christian ritual it demeans people who don't believe in it. It feels like it's effectively saying that this is the correct thing and if you don't believe or go with this then you're wrong. It's not just non-believers who are harmed by this, it's every other faith. Maybe that's not the intent of the prayer but it's certainly a by-product of it.
This kid is an absolute hero to stand up to this and I will defend him all day because I understand why he feels the way he feels. I hope that if I ever get put in a similar situation in the workplace or wherever I'll have the guts to stand up and say wait a minute this is wrong.
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On May 28 2011 01:19 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:09 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:08 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 01:03 Olinim wrote:On May 28 2011 01:00 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:48 marvellosity wrote:On May 28 2011 00:40 Jayjay54 wrote:On May 28 2011 00:26 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 23:25 Popss wrote:On May 27 2011 15:28 krbz wrote:
[quote]
Atheism is the "belief" that their is no god.
Theism is the "belief" that their is a god.
They are equal in that they both take faith, and they both cannot be proven. The "faith" is the issue between the two as they cannot be proven. It is fully illogical to believe either of these since you have to follow both blindly.
Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.
^aka - The logical choice. Ah I keep messing up agnosticism and atheism. But yeah claiming that God does not exist feels about as ridiculous to me as claiming that he does exist. Unless you can show me proof for either. Guess that makes me agnostic. "Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities" actually, it is a third position. agnoticism does not judge the likeliness of a god nor refuses god or other higher instances. they just say that they don't know. did u ever see a poll? the answers are usually "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" (or similar). Three distinct positions. I consider myself an agnostic. and not at all an atheist. Wow, you managed to completely not understand the post you were replying to :| Do you believe in god? If yes, you are theist. If no, you are atheist = lack of belief. It's nothing to do with likeliness or the possibility of the supernatural. I don't know why I HAVE to choose a side. Maybe there is a god, maybe not. And that's a legit position to me, cause we can't know. And by saying "Hey, but it is just more likely that there is no god" and thus makin me an atheist, because I say "I don't know", you judge the likeliness. You just assume that my "I don't know" implies my lack of faith which is just plain wrong. I just don't know. Nothing more, nothing less. you just say that the existence of god needs proove and not the lack of god. That's ok, but something I refuse to rate. From my point of view it is just as likely that nothing makes sense at all and is random energy (with no real origin as it seems), as that some higher entitiy made some pretty cool stuff here, and also that it is something entirely different. We'll never understand how an event horizon actually bends time to infinity or how the borders of the universe are made. Deal with it. That's just stuff our small brain can't handle, so why think of solutions and not just sit back and enjoying the right. So again, it is a third position, right in the middle where no sides exist and I just say "Leave me alone, why think about it, we're too small anyways" Alright this is a Yes or no question, it's very simple. Do you, the person I am speaking to right now, BELIEVE, that is, to hold a belief in a deity. IF YES, you are theist, IF NOT, you are an atheist, although you would be either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist. My position is "I CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. cause we never will be able too, our brains are too small". So I just refuse to answer your "yes" or "no" questions due to lack of information / brain Omg, that is nonsense, you CAN answer the question. You know damn well if you believe in a deity or not. The question isn't "DOES GOD EXIST", it is "Do you believe in a God?'" they are freaking different man. No they are not. Maybe from your point of view. I just don't rule him out. Nor do I say that I believe in him. I just don't know. I can't answer the "Do you believe in God question" either! Here's an analogy for you. Might not be how you see it, but for me it's kind of the same: "Do you believe that I wear pink socks right now?". How would u answer? Probably with "I don't know" cause you can't. You just don't know enough (Although pink socks might seem unlikely).
I could make a guess based on my knowledge, and after that I would either hold the position of an absence of belief in your socks or vice versa. And If i had absolutely no knowledge it's different because one is a on a phsyical state in the outside world, not a question about your consciousness. Also refer to MCC's post he explains this one better ;p
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EPT
