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On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote:
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Where else does MKP have an audience besides the GSL?
I don't understand how it "cheapens" e-sports when he is speaking his mind.
"독도 is Korean territory" is on OGN/MBC as well I can't remember which one (but I saw it on the corner of the screen) as well. Just a random fact.
The whole "holding up a sign after a match" thing isn't new to gaming. His sign I guess is considered political and many people might be sensitive/offended to this. But realistically, he can say whatever the fuck he wants (within reasonable limits ofc), unless the PD/managers/coaches/staff say something about it.
Your last comment in all honesty is one of the most childish and ignorant comments I've read today. It is my understand that you don't like the precedent being set allowing stuff like this. That's your opinion and I can respect that but your whole "I hope" hypothetical situation is just brain-meltingly dumb, you do realize what would happen right?
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On April 02 2011 17:57 shinku) wrote:Show nested quote +stop saying "you", that was my point. not all koreans are alike. just like not all japanese are alike. you for example, is showing a bad example of a japanese, if you are one. That's funny. Then whats good example of japanese? Japanese that appologize about something they aren't responsible nor even part of? Japanese that forgive every korean criminals because of something that was done before either aggressor nor victim were born? If every japanese apologize about ww2 when they meet any koreans do your ego feel satisfied? It's so disgusting how some of korean's mind sets are when it comes to history. Very very disgusting. They think every bad thing they do/say on japanese is justified because of something they weren't even part of. And blind themselves purposely from the help they recieved from japan. My stance, I don't even wanna brag nor ask how much koreans should be thankful. Nor do I take any historical bullshit from koreans. I DON'T CARE ALL KOREANS STFU. But koreans keep it going why? Because they want more money and they want something to hate on just so they feel better.
I hope he's trolling... I mean I don't want ppl to think Japanese ppl are like this...
EDIT: NVM, just saw his post count.
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5003 Posts
On April 02 2011 18:17 ThePurist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote:
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit. Where else does MKP have an audience besides the GSL? I don't understand how it "cheapens" e-sports when he is speaking his mind. "독도 is Korean territory" is on OGN/MBC as well I can't remember which one (but I saw it on the corner of the screen) as well. Just a random fact . The whole "holding up a sign after a match" thing isn't new to gaming. His sign I guess is considered political and many people might be sensitive/offended to this. But realistically, he can say whatever the fuck he wants (within reasonable limits ofc), unless the PD/managers/coaches/staff say something about it. Your last comment in all honesty is one of the most childish and ignorant comments I've read today. It is my understand that you don't like the precedent being set allowing stuff like this. But I don't understand how your hypothetical situation helps either.
Politics and Sports don't belong together. Why should those two be related? What do these political statements add to the game, other than potential polarization? Why potentially polarize the audience, why use it as a media to state political things?
Of course he can do whatever the fuck he wants because there aren't any rules set but it's in terribly poor taste. But the whole thing is backed by this bullshit SC2 council nonsense. Why are they getting into political issues? Why should they have opinions on political matters? They're here to play a game not to start a political debate.
I don't know of OGN/MBC doing it -- I've never seen it but I'd be equally as angry if they did something like that.
How is my last statement "ignorant" in any way? How is it "childish"? The point is my hypothetical isn't supposed to "help" the situation in any sort of way. The point is that there will be huge outrage if something like that happens from Korea and honestly because you had a precedence where you allowed one Progamer to do it you should allow the other also, or are we going to discriminate based on political view now? Or since Korean SC2 council "supports" this, will they try and punish the other player? The point is allowing politics into a "competitive sport" is nonsense and it has no place in it and it will only complicate things.
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On April 01 2011 23:29 Sanctimonius wrote:
Personal opinion is no, absolutely not. If you want esports to be taken seriously, then this kind of show should be kept out of it. Would it be right to make this kind of statement in a normal sport? Of course not. Think about the black power salute at the '68 Olympics - was that acceptable? Not to the US Athletics group.
Are you kidding me? This is a historic moment, something that people remember. Yes, it created controversy. But if we look at it now, was it really a bad move or something quite comprehensible in the context of that time? It's very naive to think sports can be unpolitical. This kind of thinking is part of a political culture I can't really support and that I don't want e-sports to a part of. We shouldn't always look at traditional sports and mimic them because that won't work anyway.
On April 02 2011 18:29 Milkis wrote:I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
Again it's very naive to think that. Something can be unpolitical only by the absence of politics but this means that you have to keep politics out (regulations) which is a political questionable move. There are plenty of examples why sports are not unrelated to politics and saying that pro gamers shouldn't touch that subject because we want to avoid controversy is highly political in itself. It's like saying "hey we wanna make money here keep the controversy out" but the controversy is always there and always will be. Also people discuss the statement but do they stop watching GSL? I don't think so.
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I'm not sure if politics belongs, but this action certainly seems like biting the hand that feeds you. I lost a ton of respect for MKP. If he really felt this way, he should have protested by refusing to participate in the tournament. Instead he's being an ungrateful whelp.
But I suppose given the circumstances (youth, dropping out from school, playing video games all day) we shouldn't really be surprised.
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another much better political statement: !
![[image loading]](http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/1055/hzxynz.jpg)
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On April 02 2011 18:55 pwei wrote:
I'm not sure if politics belongs, but this action certainly seems like biting the hand that feeds you. I lost a ton of respect for MKP. If he really felt this way, he should have protested by refusing to participate in the tournament. Instead he's being an ungrateful whelp.
I think I can count 4 non sequiturs in there.
But I suppose given the circumstances (youth, dropping out from school, playing video games all day) we shouldn't really be surprised.
You then proceed to double down on your somewhat bizarre argument by suggesting that MKP is an ignorant naive lout.  Alas, if only smugness was a saleable commodity...
Stones, glass houses, some assembly required.
FWIW, I have no problem with MKP or anyone showing their political views in public. Of course, that comes rightfully with criticism. Said criticism should center on content, not venue.
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On April 02 2011 18:29 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 18:17 ThePurist wrote:On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote:
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit. Where else does MKP have an audience besides the GSL? I don't understand how it "cheapens" e-sports when he is speaking his mind. "독도 is Korean territory" is on OGN/MBC as well I can't remember which one (but I saw it on the corner of the screen) as well. Just a random fact . The whole "holding up a sign after a match" thing isn't new to gaming. His sign I guess is considered political and many people might be sensitive/offended to this. But realistically, he can say whatever the fuck he wants (within reasonable limits ofc), unless the PD/managers/coaches/staff say something about it. Your last comment in all honesty is one of the most childish and ignorant comments I've read today. It is my understand that you don't like the precedent being set allowing stuff like this. But I don't understand how your hypothetical situation helps either. Politics and Sports don't belong together. Why should those two be related? What do these political statements add to the game, other than potential polarization? Why potentially polarize the audience, why use it as a media to state political things? Of course he can do whatever the fuck he wants because there aren't any rules set but it's in terribly poor taste. But the whole thing is backed by this bullshit SC2 council nonsense. Why are they getting into political issues? Why should they have opinions on political matters? They're here to play a game not to start a political debate. I don't know of OGN/MBC doing it -- I've never seen it but I'd be equally as angry if they did something like that. How is my last statement "ignorant" in any way? How is it "childish"? The point is my hypothetical isn't supposed to "help" the situation in any sort of way. The point is that there will be huge outrage if something like that happens from Korea and honestly because you had a precedence where you allowed one Progamer to do it you should allow the other also, or are we going to discriminate based on political view now? Or since Korean SC2 council "supports" this, will they try and punish the other player? The point is allowing politics into a "competitive sport" is nonsense and it has no place in it and it will only complicate things.
First off I'd like to state, I don't believe politics and sports should belong together.
But unfortunately it isn't the case in most (if not all major professional sports leagues), there surely is a presence of background politics. Just gotta learn to deal with it unless you feel so strongly against it, and will take matters into your hands do something about it.
"Why should those two be related?"
I don't know why you are asking this, I don't think myself nor anybody else here is in a position to answer this. Ask the GomTV PD? Or better yet, e-mail the executives who authorized the whole thing. He (if he does choose to respond) will probably give you a semi-nationalistic answer that you may choose to regard as bullshit. But what's going to change?
"Why use it as a media to state political things"
Because they can. It is in the interest of the Korean government to secure and fortify the notion of "독도는 우리땅". Everybody knows the conglomerates and politicians work hand-in-hand, why not use GSL to direct a message to a huge foreign audience?
I don't know of OGN/MBC doing it
Top right corner sometimes flashing small box thing if I recall correctly.
How is my last statement "ignorant" in any way? How is it "childish"?
As I have stated before I fully understand your point on setting precedent and I don't believe that is debatable because you are entitled to your opinion. But just read over what you've said, here: "I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins." I don't wanna flame or go over literally and explain why it was bad on many different levels, even if your intention was to prove a point. If you don't find it the least bit childish and ignorant, I regret you feel this way.
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On April 02 2011 18:55 pwei wrote:
I'm not sure if politics belongs, but this action certainly seems like biting the hand that feeds you. I lost a ton of respect for MKP. If he really felt this way, he should have protested by refusing to participate in the tournament. Instead he's being an ungrateful whelp.
But I suppose given the circumstances (youth, dropping out from school, playing video games all day) we shouldn't really be surprised.
Didn't realize fascism was popular among starcraft 2 enthusiasts.
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Dokdo IS Korean Territory. MKP telling it like it is.
People that say MKP shouldn't have caused such a controversy: Charity for tragedy is completely different from making claims to a land that rightfully belongs to Korea.
It's like, I see a guy who's mom has died. Terrible. Does it mean that the Starcraft CD he took from my room is his now? NO
독도는 한국땅!!
On April 02 2011 13:18 shinku) wrote:
Ok Chinese and Koreans can hate Japanese for what they've done in the PAST. But Japanese are starting to hate Chinese and Koreans for what they're doing RIGHT NOW. They come to Japan and commit alot of crime such as stealing and murdering people. Koreans who live and use japanese name are the ones that are worst. They are the one who decided to stay in japan after the ww2, yet they pretend like they were forced to stay. Therefore they act like they're victims, and they ask for alot of special privileges most japanese don't even know.
Yes most Japanese don't know about them. Why? Because they hide them selves from being known. When those Koreans-live-in-Japan commit crime, They use Japanese name. So people think it was Japanese criminal, not Korean. Bull shit.
Remember recently, Chinese ship rammed into Japanese ship. Remember? First Chinese pretended like they were victims, because media is so corrupted and don't even show truth because they think "japan-china relationship is more important". But because of one brave man, now we all know chinese were the aggressors.
Just like these, despite how much rotten japanese government tries to hide truth. People started knowing so many crimes done by both Chinese and Korean people in past so many years. Or should I say ever since ww2 ended. People from those countries feel so justified doing these crimes on japanese, because of something they weren't even born at time.
Sins will be never gone. Sure if you didn't fight war but still think you have all the rights to accuse japan, prepare to take accuse from japanese for what your people been doing too. In your theory, you can not refuse just because crimes were done by someone you don't even know.
User was warned for this post
Yea bro, raping korean women and shit during ww2 was totally cool on Japan's part. Yeah. Okay bro. Keep talking you fucking faggot
Apparently you can't be thankful for Korea extending a helping hand, then Japan goes around the corner and says in textbooks, Takeshima is ours!!! It's called Dokdo, and it's Korean territory.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 02 2011 17:57 shinku) wrote:Show nested quote +stop saying "you", that was my point. not all koreans are alike. just like not all japanese are alike. you for example, is showing a bad example of a japanese, if you are one. That's funny. Then whats good example of japanese? Japanese that appologize about something they aren't responsible nor even part of? Japanese that forgive every korean criminals because of something that was done before either aggressor nor victim were born? If every japanese apologize about ww2 when they meet any koreans do your ego feel satisfied? It's so disgusting how some of korean's mind sets are when it comes to history. Very very disgusting. They think every bad thing they do/say on japanese is justified because of something they weren't even part of. And blind themselves purposely from the help they recieved from japan. My stance, I don't even wanna brag nor ask how much koreans should be thankful. Nor do I take any historical bullshit from koreans. I DON'T CARE ALL KOREANS STFU. But koreans keep it going why? Because they want more money and they want something to hate on just so they feel better. User was temp banned for this post.
I don't think you are japanese lol I think I know where you from but I don't want to embarass you 
I know you are pissing your pants since some korean guy took your girl friend or beat you badly in starcraft but the stuff you wrote is pure fantasy.
Koreans have one of the lowest crime rate in Japan. It's even lower than Japanese themselves.
Why do you think some of the richest guys in Japan are ethnically Korean? I'm pretty sure they didn't rob their way up there. Despite being a tiny minority and often being discriminated, they worked their ass off. That's how!
As far as who helped who, it goes both ways and it has been that way since the birth of those two countries. There were period where they help each other and period where they just beat each other up. It is what it is, hate and love relationship. Based on recent survey and polls, they actually like each other more. It's just the loud ones are the one that hate.
As for Dokdo and what MKP said, whether it was appropriate or not is debatable but he made a true statement. Dokdo is Korean territory just like hawaii is american territory. I don't think he helped by holding up that sign since it does seems like it's a disputed island when it really isn't it.
It's like I'm wearing my awesome autographed Kobe bryant jersey and some guy is telling everyone how that jersey is actually his when it really isn't. What is he going to do? Steal the jersey? Koreans are no longer weaklings like they were 60 years ago. All their weapons are modernized and like Japan they are capable of building a nuclear weapon less than a year. There isn't anything Japan can do to take that island unless they declare a war which won't ever happen.
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Humans are so dumb and constrained its amazing.
When du they beginn to realize that there is no Japan no Korea and therefore no Japanese and no Koreans.
These are only constructs in minds of lower persons who clinge to some framework and hold on because they cant see the wold as it is.
What is a country ? Another dumb construct, a game in the minds of so many and yet they fail to realize that this is only a stupid game invented by those who benefit from it and the other humans are playing it because they believe it to be real and force themselves and others to do so.
Please open your mind and see the things as what they really are and not as what you are told. And beginn to learn history, but the correct way, so that it wont repeat itself.
As for me it stands to reason that this boy wanted attention, not for any cause, but for himself.
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Although worded poorly, I kind of see where shinku) is coming from.
Both countries seem to have a very.. rigid mindset when it comes to history.
Of course, my personal experiences are very limited in comparison to others - the hate seemed to me to be very onesided. During my stay in Japan (~1½ year), not once did I hear anyone talk about Korea in a way that was blatantly negative. Two weeks in South Korea and the subject was pretty common.
A friend of mine who studied in Seoul during my time abroad told me that her impression was that cussing over Japan was as normal as talking about the weather.
(Might just have been us hanging around with completely different crowds, thus screwing impressions)
The emperor of Japan even formally apologised for the atrocities that South Korea was exposed to during WW2, and while that certainly doesn't make all fine and dandy - didn't like the next prime minister demand that they apologise again? Or similar.
In a japanese point of view, it'd seem like Korea just demands more for crimes that were comitted by their grandparents. I'd be frustrated too :>
What happened was terrible and shouldn't be forgotten, so I think the rage is justified when "incidents" like when official-ish school books change the wordings to make it look like Japan is less faulty. The Dokdo case seems to be yet another of these, but I'm not updated on the matter enough to judge.
TLDR:
I don't mind having players express political statements every now and then, but in my head this entire ordeal feels more like hate mongering. We need moar love!
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Agreed with Jitensha (nice name btw... :D) - where's the love?
This is why statements like this don't belong in sports or esports, and if you want esports to be taken as seriously you need to be as strict. Korea says the islands are theirs. Fair enough. Rightwing Japanese political groups (from personal experience the average Japanese person doesn't particularly care about them either) say the islands are Japanese - fair enough again. I don't really care, and as people can plainly see they are two rocks in the middle of nowhere with little resources, so I can't really see why they are getting so worked up over them. So why bring it into Starcraft, which has nothing to do with politics? It was unnecessary, simple as.
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On April 02 2011 20:40 Holy_AT wrote:
Humans are so dumb and constrained its amazing.
When du they beginn to realize that there is no Japan no Korea and therefore no Japanese and no Koreans.
These are only constructs in minds of lower persons who clinge to some framework and hold on because they cant see the wold as it is.
What is a country ? Another dumb construct, a game in the minds of so many and yet they fail to realize that this is only a stupid game invented by those who benefit from it and the other humans are playing it because they believe it to be real and force themselves and others to do so.
Please open your mind and see the things as what they really are and not as what you are told. And beginn to learn history, but the correct way, so that it wont repeat itself.
As for me it stands to reason that this boy wanted attention, not for any cause, but for himself.
Unless you can let your neighbour take piece of land (home) from you and do not feel negatively, you are not in position to judge 'humans'. I can see that you are imagining a future where everyone is one, equal, sharing, caring and trusting each other but that won't happen unless it starts with you. However it can't and does not start with you no matter how high and mighty you are because of your instinct won't let someone take stuff away from you, it's the way 'humans' have evolved and pretty much any living thing has evolved. Humans are so constrained, I agree but that is because we are constrained by our instincts not intelligence. Thus we have political debates and try to stimulate our minds to fight our natural instincts, not going off to some hypothetical place in our minds where everyone is all happy and dandy.
Of course, this does mean I encourage politics in public (sports). It gets people thinking about the problem, debating and constructing arguments. Will be solve the problem? Well talking about the problem is always a good start. :D
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not going off to some hypothetical place in our minds where everyone is all happy and dandy.
That is not what I am doing that is what 95% of people are doing, because otherwise there would be an outcry because of injustice, intolerance but as long as everyone has there TV and beer, they are happy ....
I am the other. I am not blinded by greed in that way people are today ...
There are people politicans, managers and others who have more then enough to live, better than everyone else and yet they still want more. This is a reson for failure. Someone wants, .... money ?... land ? .... power ?..... and they want it so badly they ignore values and ethics.
We want money ? Well shit on safty regulations and cut corners, to bad it was done in an atomic power plant ....
People dont realize what they are doing, neither am I to a ful extent, but what I want to do are good things and thats what I am missing today.
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On April 02 2011 21:35 Sanctimonius wrote:
Agreed with Jitensha (nice name btw... :D) - where's the love?
This is why statements like this don't belong in sports or esports, and if you want esports to be taken as seriously you need to be as strict. Korea says the islands are theirs. Fair enough. Rightwing Japanese political groups (from personal experience the average Japanese person doesn't particularly care about them either) say the islands are Japanese - fair enough again. I don't really care, and as people can plainly see they are two rocks in the middle of nowhere with little resources, so I can't really see why they are getting so worked up over them. So why bring it into Starcraft, which has nothing to do with politics? It was unnecessary, simple as.
HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE fishing territory. Like ridiculously huge.
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On April 02 2011 21:35 Sanctimonius wrote:
Agreed with Jitensha (nice name btw... :D) - where's the love?
This is why statements like this don't belong in sports or esports, and if you want esports to be taken as seriously you need to be as strict. Korea says the islands are theirs. Fair enough. Rightwing Japanese political groups (from personal experience the average Japanese person doesn't particularly care about them either) say the islands are Japanese - fair enough again. I don't really care, and as people can plainly see they are two rocks in the middle of nowhere with little resources, so I can't really see why they are getting so worked up over them. So why bring it into Starcraft, which has nothing to do with politics? It was unnecessary, simple as.
I agree that it was unnecessary, but I don't think it should be permitted. I know that it is common for major sports but cutting down freedom of speech is never a good thing.
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It's fine if sports become politicized? I don't like it, but does it really matter?
If you're sensitive enough to stop watching a sport because you feel insulted about a particular matter....then that's your fault and not someone else's.
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On April 02 2011 22:26 Zergneedsfood wrote:
It's fine if sports become politicized? I don't like it, but does it really matter?
If you're sensitive enough to stop watching a sport because you feel insulted about a particular matter....then that's your fault and not someone else's.
This is a narrow mindset. Most people here has no problem with it ourself, but we are here looking out for ESport.
Just because this particular issue not big enough to polarize community doesn't mean it won't in the future. Imagine someone bring up gay rights, gun politics into MLG.
Edit: If you want to talk about something, there are proper channels and places to do it. Otherwise it creates a battlefield that does not lead to anything. It's same as talking about balance issue in a live report thread.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img859.imageshack.us/i/hzxynz.jpg/)
