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On June 16 2011 11:12 naonao wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 11:04 Nothing-to-No-One wrote:If you don't think that copyright infringement stifles creativity and innovation then you are just wrong. Do you think Hollywood is going to spend $300 million to make a movie that they lose money on? Since when the hell was Hollywood the only ones who made movies? And your missing my point. I am arguing that the sale of a file that can be copied with much ease is a largely less legitimate business then the sale of a theater ticket. Do you think game companies would continue making games if they simply gave it away for free? Do you think software companies will continue producing software if its for free? These are items that are simply files which you can easy copy and distribute.
yes they will, ever heard about Canonical or Red Hat?
I am very happy to pay for a movie, as long as it doesn't have tons of blatant product placement advertising. Just like I wont pay for TV as long as it's financed by advertisment (I pay for TV "distribution").
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On June 16 2011 11:19 Nothing-to-No-One wrote:Show nested quote +Do you think game companies would continue making games if they simply gave it away for free? Do you think software companies will continue producing software if its for free? These are items that are simply files which you can easy copy and distribute. Everyone will die. All the money and wealth you accumulate when you are gone won't be in your possession. Money, objects, items all go away but what sticks are the things you do that enable your fellow humans. It is selfish and goes against the best wishes of the human race to only allow people privileged enough to be born into a scenario where they can pursue a decent job access to an idea and even more so to prevent them from expanding on it. Single minded selfishness hinders world wide development.
Selfishness hinders world wide development?
Man, what a claim! So every major innovation or invention has been created for altruistic purposes, and not for at least some aspect of personal gain?
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On June 16 2011 11:04 Nothing-to-No-One wrote:Show nested quote +If you don't think that copyright infringement stifles creativity and innovation then you are just wrong. Do you think Hollywood is going to spend $300 million to make a movie that they lose money on? Since when the hell was Hollywood the only ones who made movies? And your missing my point. I am arguing that the sale of a file that can be copied with much ease is a largely less legitimate business then the sale of a theater ticket.
I know what your point is. There is no reason for me to argue with your point because we probably have a fundamental difference of opinion that we will never agree on. You say it's not a legitimate business and I say that it is, where can we go from there? Not very far.
So back to creativity and innovation. I am aware that Hollywood is not the only place that makes movies. Are you saying that it's okay if Hollywood is ruined because other places will make films on the cheap?
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Selfishness hinders world wide development?
Man, what a claim! So every major innovation or invention has been created for altruistic purposes, and not for at least some aspect of personal gain? I said hinders not prevents. Eventually that person will die and he will lose royalties to his product but this is a lifetime. Snowball these lifetimes and it is a very large amount of hindrance. Hes throwing steel mesh into the gears of development. You are raised in a capitalistic society, consider the phrase: "How do you look outside of what is to you everything?" -Stephen Colbert
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So back to creativity and innovation. I am aware that Hollywood is not the only place that makes movies. Are you saying that it's okay if Hollywood is ruined because other places will make films on the cheap? Actually it would put more emphasis on the quality and not who made them so that would be a good thing, less movies like the Stars Wars 1 2 3.... Just because someone spends money to make something does not mean it is quality
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United States1216 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:19 KomradeKevin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 10:29 BlackJack wrote:On June 16 2011 10:21 Nothing-to-No-One wrote: Why should a minority profit from it currency wise when the whole world could be enriched by it? Don't you realize that if a minority couldn't profit from it then it wouldn't exist in the first place and thus the world wouldn't be enriched by it anyway? Einstein did not study physics for a profit. The Wright Brothers did not invent flight to make money from it. The best inventions/innovations in the world today were not spawned by desire to make money. Starting to get into why capitalism is not the most efficient way to share resources and provide for the most people possible. The artists don't actually make the amount they should because it gets diluted through an unnecessary corporate structure with too many people being bosses and not enough providing a service or creating a good. Basically copyrights only exist as a way of censoring what thoughts make it to public back when literacy became more common. They claim it is about money but the people saying that have plenty. It is about control and power. They need to stop instituting bandwidth caps and trying to pass legislation to keep internet streaming lower percentage of bandwidth usage. Streaming video is currently 20% of the world's bandwidth. And during peak times in the US it can get much higher. They can't figure out a way to make streaming profitable compared to the companies and individuals who already are. They are scared that their companies will die. If companies are not allowed to go by the waste-side when they are no longer useful/profitable then you take away the very basis of capitalism(free market) but keep the bad side effects or real world capitalism like the only motivation being money instead of improving society in some way. These ever increasing copyright laws are similar to not allowing the starving people in the world eat because they don't have money. There is no food shortage, there is a money shortage in Africa. If they had money, they would not be starving. There is plenty of extra in the first world but it costs money. You cannot listen to that song or hear that speech or watch that sport because you don't have enough money even though it costs almost nothing to stream it and they can get ad revenue still. Think about it, who steals a bunch of music or food if they have the money to pay for it to begin with? Of course people would rather be able to pay but it is not always possible. The problem being that even though the ability, technology, and manpower exist, if the money isn't there neither is whatever could have been. An example of this would be the lack of true high speed fiber optics throughout the US. No reason it isn't there yet other than the money for it isn't there. Isolated areas are still choosing satellite or dial up because they do not represent a big enough customer base to justify allowing them access to the internet. There is still cable tv in a lot of these areas here in Kansas, but the cable companies don't offer internet, only tv. At what point do they really need more money and at what point can we learn to share? Information should be free. We should stop holding back our own development because of a lack of money, which was created to make trade easier, it is now not necessary and only creates problems. On a side note, we have the technology, raw materials, and manpower to replace 50% of all jobs by computers/robots. The reason we cannot do this is because how would that 50% be able to pay for things if they have been replaced? This is why we are in the beginning of the next stage in human evolution. I can't wait until a system like the Federation of Planets is our governing body and educating the youth is a top priority.
Wall of text crits you 1 brajillion doing terrible terrible damage
Argument fails in first sentence, would A, any one like to guess what einsteins job was? and B, who wants to make a guess what the wright brothers did with their inventions?
Answers! A. Einstein was paid as a physhics teacher/research throughout his life he just happened to be smart enoguh to work in a field he had a passion for.
B. the wright brothers continually marketed and and tweaked their flying invention with government militaries like the united states.
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On June 16 2011 11:27 Nothing-to-No-One wrote:Show nested quote +Selfishness hinders world wide development?
Man, what a claim! So every major innovation or invention has been created for altruistic purposes, and not for at least some aspect of personal gain? I said hinders not prevents. Eventually that person will die and he will lose royalties to his product but this is a lifetime. Snowball these lifetimes and it is a very large amount of hindrance. Hes throwing steel mesh into the gears of development. You are raised in a capitalistic society, consider the phrase: "How do you look outside of what is to you everything?" -Stephen Colbert
Any evidence to support your claims?
I could just as easily say selfish desires further the cause of technological innovations far more than altruistic purposes. Space race? Selfish interest drove that and all subsequent developments, far more effectively than if there had not been a pressing selfish desire to develop such inventions.
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Neither one of them was motivated by money to invent. They had the inspiration in them already. If I enjoy writing computer programs and happen to get a job writing computer programs, the reason I am doing it is not the fact I am getting paid. The payment only allows me to function and stay alive.
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Let us talk about selfishness then. In North Korea the government is selfish when considering the quality of life for Kim Jong il and the average citizens quality of life. Wouldn't you say if Kim Jong shared more like computers, Internet, and free speech he would enable his citizens to do more then be oppressed and maybe create intuitive works other then synchronized dancing?
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On June 16 2011 10:50 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 10:10 xarthaz wrote:Intellectual property is cancer to society. It creates scarcity and conflict where none is necessary. Media can be peacefully and globally shared without anyone pointing a gun toward someone else. It is purely barbaric to punish people for using content that takes nothing away from anyone else. On June 16 2011 10:01 cfoy3 wrote: I think some people here are being a little ridiculous. I mean corporation's have rights too. Hollywood spends a lot of money making quality entertainment. They need revenue. If this law starts to clamp down on the illegal streaming of entertainment, such as tv shows, then I think its a good thing. If we do not make the business of producing entertainment profitable, then their wont be a business. No, you dont understand. The artificial scarcity is twhat is ridiculous. It is purely evil, due to enforcement of violence over rights that no one need have. You know theres easier way to let people know youre a moron. People who have issues with IP are either children, have the mental capacity of children, or never able to grasp the idea of actually creating somethign for profit. Some of us worked hard not to be minimum wage fry makers like you. the problem isnt profit. it is enforcement of violence for the purposes of creating scarcity of goods that can be freely enjoyed by everyone
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United States22883 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:24 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 11:04 Nothing-to-No-One wrote:If you don't think that copyright infringement stifles creativity and innovation then you are just wrong. Do you think Hollywood is going to spend $300 million to make a movie that they lose money on? Since when the hell was Hollywood the only ones who made movies? And your missing my point. I am arguing that the sale of a file that can be copied with much ease is a largely less legitimate business then the sale of a theater ticket. I know what your point is. There is no reason for me to argue with your point because we probably have a fundamental difference of opinion that we will never agree on. You say it's not a legitimate business and I say that it is, where can we go from there? Not very far. So back to creativity and innovation. I am aware that Hollywood is not the only place that makes movies. Are you saying that it's okay if Hollywood is ruined because other places will make films on the cheap? Like your just thinking about yourself man. Your like the freaking bodyguards at the Phish concert who had nothing on their mind but messing with my vibe. Im just there to soak in the love like everyone else, why do I need a ticket? You should be paying me for adding to the merryness of the moment. You cant put a price on things like sound waves or water or love, that's bogus man. When my co-op mate Aurora Ray buys a delicious box of Kashi Go Lean Crunch (not pre-processed ultrapastuerized polyeurothanized crap from earth fascists like Kelloggs) can you imagine if he/she charged me for each delicious cluster? Thatd be bogus man. The foods from the Earth and no one owns Mother Earth. Next thing you know people will start charging for stars or to use the growlights at the college's nature center. Its corporatists like you that are raping Mother Earth of good times but i got news for you its time for us to take back the night. Well not the night cause its totally bumming when the suns not out but i got a lot of stress and probably wont be up till 1 or 4pm so then watch out then cause free dom is coming to every1.
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The idea of private propery is one of the core values of Western Societies. Many of you have made compelling arguments for why we should do away with it, however that is not what I feel should be debated right now. You are arguing to radically restructure our society, this bill is about a single issue, whether watching someones IP is illegal withing our society. The answer is yes. You could argue that the society is wrong, and the starting philosospies are incorrect-the right to property-but that does not apply to this one issue. If you want the law repealed you must argue against it within our current society. P.S.I do like The Next Generation and I do hope one day that humanity does develop such a system. However, I feel such a system will only arise once their is a massive over abundance in all resources-energy,food and space. Once we have a situation where no one lacks, then such a system may develop. However, current practical necessitous, I feel , prevents such a system from developing.
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United States1216 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:32 KomradeKevin wrote: Neither one of them was motivated by money to invent. They had the inspiration in them already. If I enjoy writing computer programs and happen to get a job writing computer programs, the reason I am doing it is not the fact I am getting paid. The payment only allows me to function and stay alive.
Einstein is maybe the better of the two to argue with but it was very much part of his job to do science and come up with these things, and he certainly liked getting paid. His type of work is considerably harder to monetize since hes not actually creating anything just explaining, nonetheless he never turned down the money (and prize money which he did a lot fo his work for).
The wright brothers are a terrible argument for you to make, they both talked exensively how the printing company was there to pay the bills while they tried to sell their many inventions. They liked it but they damn well wanted to be paid for their ideas.
The better way of looking at it is this. You got that job writing code because A, you like money(you know you need it to eat and live) and B you like programming. You would be pissed if some one else was taking your code work and turning it in to get paid while you got paid nothing for working all week.
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On June 16 2011 11:03 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 10:54 qdenser wrote:On June 16 2011 10:50 abominare wrote:On June 16 2011 10:10 xarthaz wrote:Intellectual property is cancer to society. It creates scarcity and conflict where none is necessary. Media can be peacefully and globally shared without anyone pointing a gun toward someone else. It is purely barbaric to punish people for using content that takes nothing away from anyone else. On June 16 2011 10:01 cfoy3 wrote: I think some people here are being a little ridiculous. I mean corporation's have rights too. Hollywood spends a lot of money making quality entertainment. They need revenue. If this law starts to clamp down on the illegal streaming of entertainment, such as tv shows, then I think its a good thing. If we do not make the business of producing entertainment profitable, then their wont be a business. No, you dont understand. The artificial scarcity is twhat is ridiculous. It is purely evil, due to enforcement of violence over rights that no one need have. You know theres easier way to let people know youre a moron. People who have issues with IP are either children, have the mental capacity of children, or never able to grasp the idea of actually creating somethign for profit. Some of us worked hard not to be minimum wage fry makers like you. whoa there put down the copy of ayn rand, step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath. isn't oxygen calming? I er, uh, you know what you obviously didn't read her work so I'm not going to explain why you fail at trying to use that joke. Ayn Rand was also and idiot. IP laws are a requirement of a capitalist society regardless, you can't have a functional western marketplace without them. I mean sure we can totally go back several thousand years to an agrarian city state society but I like how it is now. a lot of wealth has been created in eastern european and china due to lack of IP enforcement.
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On June 16 2011 11:34 Nothing-to-No-One wrote: Let us talk about selfishness then. In North Korea the government is selfish when considering the quality of life for Kim Jong il and the average citizens quality of life. Wouldn't you say if Kim Jong shared more like computers, Internet, and free speech he would enable his citizens to do more then be oppressed and maybe create intuitive works other then synchronized dancing?
Sure, but that's not what we are talking about.
You are ignoring the point brought up before by other posters (repeatedly) which is that game companies wouldn't make games if they didn't make money. Private medial research involving massive expenditure wouldn't occur if profit incentives didn't exist. The list goes on.
If you are trying to say selfishness only inhibits these innovations, we can just as easily say it was that selfishness that allowed these inventions to occur in the first place, and without selfishness, such innovations would be considerably more rudimentary at best.
Does the enforcement of copyright laws stifle creativity? Who knows? Any proof? Any examples? Give me an example of medical science where copyright laws have a proven hindering effect on further innovation, because we could easily list a hundred other examples were copyright laws could be argued to have the opposite effect (to reward R&D efforts by corporations by ensuring profits over their creation)
This entire thread is just full of broad assumptions and statements with little to no examples, reliable evidence, or research, and you can't claim these great universal truths without evidence to back them up.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2011 11:40 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 11:24 BlackJack wrote:On June 16 2011 11:04 Nothing-to-No-One wrote:If you don't think that copyright infringement stifles creativity and innovation then you are just wrong. Do you think Hollywood is going to spend $300 million to make a movie that they lose money on? Since when the hell was Hollywood the only ones who made movies? And your missing my point. I am arguing that the sale of a file that can be copied with much ease is a largely less legitimate business then the sale of a theater ticket. I know what your point is. There is no reason for me to argue with your point because we probably have a fundamental difference of opinion that we will never agree on. You say it's not a legitimate business and I say that it is, where can we go from there? Not very far. So back to creativity and innovation. I am aware that Hollywood is not the only place that makes movies. Are you saying that it's okay if Hollywood is ruined because other places will make films on the cheap? Like your just thinking about yourself man. Your like the freaking bodyguards at the Phish concert who had nothing on their mind but messing with my vibe. Im just there to soak in the love like everyone else, why do I need a ticket? You should be paying me for adding to the merryness of the moment. You cant put a price on things like sound waves or water or love, that's bogus man. When my co-op mate Aurora Ray buys a delicious box of Kashi Go Lean Crunch (not pre-processed ultrapastuerized polyeurothanized crap from earth fascists like Kelloggs) can you imagine if he/she charged me for each delicious cluster? Thatd be bogus man. The foods from the Earth and no one owns Mother Earth. Next thing you know people will start charging for stars or to use the growlights at the college's nature center. Its corporatists like you that are raping Mother Earth of good times but i got news for you its time for us to take back the night. Well not the night cause its totally bumming when the suns not out but i got a lot of stress and probably wont be up till 1 or 4pm so then watch out then cause free dom is coming to every1. Omg that was super funny but I totally agree, people try to "sell" things that are never theirs to begin with and I don't think its right but what can we do but just wait for some global revolution? Fight the power! :D
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Sure, but that's not what we are talking about.
You are ignoring the point brought up before by other posters (repeatedly) which is that game companies wouldn't make games if they didn't make money. Private medial research involving massive expenditure wouldn't occur if profit incentives didn't exist. The list goes on.
If you are trying to say selfishness only inhibits these innovations, we can just as easily say it was that selfishness that allowed these inventions to occur in the first place, and without selfishness, such innovations would be considerably more rudimentary at best.
Does the enforcement of copyright laws stifle creativity? Who knows? Any proof? Any examples? Give me an example of medical science where copyright laws have a proven hindering effect on further innovation, because we could easily list a hundred other examples were copyright laws could be argued to have the opposite effect (to reward R&D efforts by corporations by ensuring profits over their creation) Let's talk about the medical industry. Now let's say your a poor Nigerian boy outside of the reach of missionaries and charities. One day you get a flu badly and because you can't pay a hospital fee to have yourself treated you die. Sound fair? Those game companies are lacking passion, incentive corresponding to their career, aspiration, and motivation in the first place if the only incentive is money. They will do what the have to to get a paycheck and sure some people will end up passionate and this is where good games come from. However there is a graveyard of video games that are crappy because there was no passion behind them and these are the ones made by people who live only for the paycheck. Related is the fact that a lot of top game producers have unpaid overtime. To stay in that job would mean the money is not the issue and it's the game that is the issue.
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What is the reason of property? Why should property rights be enforced, at all? This is the fallacy that makes people believe in IP. Regular property has a serious reason for its enforcement - it is the only nonviolent way of using it, as property is exclusive in its use.
Intellectual property however does not need to be enforced to be used in non violent manner - everyone can use it together without excluding each other. As such, the entire basis of justification of IP is eliminated, and the big scam of intellectual property is proven.
On June 16 2011 11:41 cfoy3 wrote: The idea of private propery is one of the core values of Western Societies. Many of you have made compelling arguments for why we should do away with it, however that is not what I feel should be debated right now. You are arguing to radically restructure our society, this bill is about a single issue, whether watching someones IP is illegal withing our society. The answer is yes. You could argue that the society is wrong, and the starting philosospies are incorrect-the right to property-but that does not apply to this one issue. If you want the law repealed you must argue against it within our current society. P.S.I do like The Next Generation and I do hope one day that humanity does develop such a system. However, I feel such a system will only arise once their is a massive over abundance in all resources-energy,food and space. Once we have a situation where no one lacks, then such a system may develop. However, current practical necessitous, I feel , prevents such a system from developing.
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On June 16 2011 11:52 Nothing-to-No-One wrote:Show nested quote +Sure, but that's not what we are talking about.
You are ignoring the point brought up before by other posters (repeatedly) which is that game companies wouldn't make games if they didn't make money. Private medial research involving massive expenditure wouldn't occur if profit incentives didn't exist. The list goes on.
If you are trying to say selfishness only inhibits these innovations, we can just as easily say it was that selfishness that allowed these inventions to occur in the first place, and without selfishness, such innovations would be considerably more rudimentary at best.
Does the enforcement of copyright laws stifle creativity? Who knows? Any proof? Any examples? Give me an example of medical science where copyright laws have a proven hindering effect on further innovation, because we could easily list a hundred other examples were copyright laws could be argued to have the opposite effect (to reward R&D efforts by corporations by ensuring profits over their creation) Let's talk about the medical industry. Now let's say your a poor Nigerian boy outside of the reach of missionaries and charities. One day you get a flu badly and because you can't pay a hospital fee to have yourself treated you die. Sound fair? Those game companies are lacking passion, incentive corresponding to their career, aspiration, and motivation in the first place if the only incentive is money. They will do what the have to to get a paycheck and sure some people will end up passionate and this is where good games come from. However there is a graveyard of video games that are crappy because there was no passion behind them and these are the ones made by people who live only for the paycheck. Related is the fact that a lot of top game producers have unpaid overtime. To stay in that job would mean the money is not the issue and it's the game that is the issue.
Fair? Fair? Who ever said fair? We're talking about the hindering of development based on selfish reasons, not fairness.
Moreover, who is to say the medicine the poor Nigerian boy needed for his particular strain would have even existed in the first place if a private medical corporation based out of the US, or the UK, or Germany, hadn't dropped however many millions of dollars in development costs?
Again, I can just as easily say the selfish drive for profit is what allowed such medicine to be created in the first place, let alone mass produced and perfected to the point where it can treat X disease.
On June 16 2011 11:56 xarthaz wrote:What is the reason of property? Why should property rights be enforced, at all? This is the fallacy that makes people believe in IP. Regular property has a serious reason for its enforcement - it is the only nonviolent way of using it, as property is exclusive in its use. Intellectual property however does not need to be enforced to be used in non violent manner - everyone can use it together without excluding each other. As such, the entire basis of justification of IP is eliminated, and the big scam of intellectual property is proven. Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 11:41 cfoy3 wrote: The idea of private propery is one of the core values of Western Societies. Many of you have made compelling arguments for why we should do away with it, however that is not what I feel should be debated right now. You are arguing to radically restructure our society, this bill is about a single issue, whether watching someones IP is illegal withing our society. The answer is yes. You could argue that the society is wrong, and the starting philosospies are incorrect-the right to property-but that does not apply to this one issue. If you want the law repealed you must argue against it within our current society. P.S.I do like The Next Generation and I do hope one day that humanity does develop such a system. However, I feel such a system will only arise once their is a massive over abundance in all resources-energy,food and space. Once we have a situation where no one lacks, then such a system may develop. However, current practical necessitous, I feel , prevents such a system from developing.
Right.
So Blizzard, after sinking millions into the development of SC2, should let the game be downloaded for free, for everyone to use without paying a dime?
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