EPTCrisis in Japan - Page 127
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Thread is about the various issues surrounding Japan in the aftermath of the recent earthquake. Don't bring the shit side of the internet to the thread, and post with the realization that this thread is very important, and very real, to your fellow members. Do not post speculative and unconfirmed news you saw on TV or anywhere else. Generally the more dramatic it sounds the less likely it's true. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
That said, In Japan I highly doubt it will ever be as big as part, it's probably not even possible. | ||
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Nienordir
98 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:16 Invol2ver wrote: This is absolutely incorrect. There is no risk of an explosion. Nuclear fusion is an entirely different process than fission (what creates a nuclear blast). There will be no explosion but if a meltdown occurs then you have nothing between the radioactive fuel and the outside environment, as well as liquid metal melting down through the layers of the structure. If this material reaches groundwater, it can spread uncontrolled and that can very be bad. There will be an airborne release as well, this can also be very bad and render the area surrounding the plan uninhabitable for many years. But there is no risk of an explosion. Please don't speculate, this is no place for fear mongering. It's not more speculation than saying it won't happen, because there is no previous data about a full meltdown. The only thing that is preventing the chain reaction is the lack of a decent neutron source, the control rods and boron acid that might still be there. If it melts and forms up in a very very odd way. Why shouldn't the natural decay let it go critical again? I think there are 70t of fuel if they form a big ass clump..why not? You can't count on the melted control rods or that the water injected to cool won't start slowing down the neutrons again.. It's as unlikely as a natural disaster that knocks out pretty much all the safety measures. Either way it is still capable of creating a burst of heat or hydrogen, enough to blow up the containment, because again it's only theory that it will be able to withstand the effects of a meltdown, especially since it might be stressed/weakened from the quake, the constant thermal expansion caused by the hot fuel combined with the cool seawater..it's just made of steel. But again it's very very unlikely and it probably will remain contained or at least 'just' melt through like everyone expects if their cooling efforts fail. They just can't be _that_ unlucky. | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:50 KaiserJohan wrote: Offtopic but, for anyone interested in the effects chernobyl had, really really recommend this: Battle of Chernobyl - a part on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0rhu9VBIM4&feature=related That said, In Japan I highly doubt it will ever be as big as part, it's probably not even possible. Aye, if there is anything positive to say regarding nuclear incidents Chernobyl set the limit for how severe it can get. Mainly because of the inherent design flaws with that power plant, design flaws that would not exist in "modern" power plants. The main reason Chernobyl was so severe was because the structure around the reactor core was capable of catching fire, and the fire spread the radioactive material with the smoke for hours and hours into the air. That can pretty much never happen in todays world. That said, this only means that the fukushima incident is unlikely to have any effect on any other country beyond Japan. But that gives me no comfort... | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:55 Nienordir wrote: It's not more speculation than saying it won't happen, because there is no previous data about a full meltdown. The only thing that is preventing the chain reaction is the lack of a decent neutron source, the control rods and boron acid that might still be there. If it melts and forms up in a very very odd way. Why shouldn't the natural decay let it go critical again? I think there are 70t of fuel if they form a big ass clump..why not? You can't count on the melted control rods or that the water injected to cool won't start slowing down the neutrons again.. It's as unlikely as a natural disaster that knocks out pretty much all the safety measures. Either way it is still capable of creating a burst of heat or hydrogen, enough to blow up the containment, because again it's only theory that it will be able to withstand the effects of a meltdown, especially since it might be stressed/weakened from the quake, the constant thermal expansion caused by the hot fuel combined with the cool seawater..it's just made of steel. But again it's very very unlikely and it probably will remain contained or at least 'just' melt through like everyone expects if their cooling efforts fail. They just can't be _that_ unlucky. No, it is not unlikely it is physically impossible. You can not get a nuclear explosion from a nuclear power plant any more than you can get a nuclear explosion out of a bundle of tnt. It is literally not possible through the laws of physics. | ||
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Invol2ver
United States330 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:55 Nienordir wrote: It's not more speculation than saying it won't happen, because there is no previous data about a full meltdown. The only thing that is preventing the chain reaction is the lack of a decent neutron source, the control rods and boron acid that might still be there. If it melts and forms up in a very very odd way. Why shouldn't the natural decay let it go critical again? I think there are 70t of fuel if they form a big ass clump..why not? You can't count on the melted control rods or that the water injected to cool won't start slowing down the neutrons again.. It's as unlikely as a natural disaster that knocks out pretty much all the safety measures. Either way it is still capable of creating a burst of heat or hydrogen, enough to blow up the containment, because again it's only theory that it will be able to withstand the effects of a meltdown, especially since it might be stressed/weakened from the quake, the constant thermal expansion caused by the hot fuel combined with the cool seawater..it's just made of steel. But again it's very very unlikely and it probably will remain contained or at least 'just' melt through like everyone expects if their cooling efforts fail. They just can't be _that_ unlucky. A hydrogen or burst of heat yes. My post was in response to someone saying that there could be a NUCLEAR explosion. Which is just not possible in this case. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
This is what could happen | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
1941 uSv / hr @ 7:30 ~8000 uSv / hr @ 8:31 (explosion) ~ 2400 uSv / hr @ 8:35 (minutes after) | ||
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Nienordir
98 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:59 Invol2ver wrote: A hydrogen or burst of heat yes. My post was in response to someone saying that there could be a NUCLEAR explosion. Which is just not possible in this case. I must have missed that part, but we're debating about details. It doesn't matter what kind of explosion would breach the containment it could be capable of injecting huge amounts of radioactive particles into the air or at least enough to expose the core, which would be very bad too, because it remains hot and the hot air would carry the particles into the sky, but again very unlikely but not impossible. | ||
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Kirb
Germany900 Posts
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:55 Nienordir wrote: It's not more speculation than saying it won't happen, because there is no previous data about a full meltdown. The only thing that is preventing the chain reaction is the lack of a decent neutron source, the control rods and boron acid that might still be there. If it melts and forms up in a very very odd way. Why shouldn't the natural decay let it go critical again? I think there are 70t of fuel if they form a big ass clump..why not? You can't count on the melted control rods or that the water injected to cool won't start slowing down the neutrons again.. It's as unlikely as a natural disaster that knocks out pretty much all the safety measures. Either way it is still capable of creating a burst of heat or hydrogen, enough to blow up the containment, because again it's only theory that it will be able to withstand the effects of a meltdown, especially since it might be stressed/weakened from the quake, the constant thermal expansion caused by the hot fuel combined with the cool seawater..it's just made of steel. But again it's very very unlikely and it probably will remain contained or at least 'just' melt through like everyone expects if their cooling efforts fail. They just can't be _that_ unlucky. Three Mile Island had a >50% meltdown, but the containment building and the reactor vessel did their jobs and kept the molten fuel from interacting with the environment. Natural decay won't let it go critical. The control rods are inserted, there is a ton of boron in that core, which will absorb all of the thermal neutrons. The natural decay of the fission products is very different from the actual fission process. There are a few neutrons generated through decay reactions, but those alone are not enough to allow the reactor to go critical. Also, even if it were to all melt to a giant lump it wouldn't go critical. In order for a reactor by itself to get started there must be a sufficient amount of moderator present to slow the neutrons. The fast neutrons generated by fission are too energetic and thus have too low of an absorption cross section to allow for a sustained reaction. A lump of uranium will not slow the neutrons, they will just bounce around (like 1 or 2 times if that) and exit the lump. I don't know the specifics of these reactors, but some reactors actually have to reflect neutrons back into the core in order to maintain criticality. Yes it is bad, but it is no where near Chernobyl. Based on the information I have seen it isn't even as bad as Three Mile Island in terms of core conditions. I should know more information tomorrow evening after an information session that the nuclear engineering department here is putting together. Also, good source for technical information on the events: http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/default.aspx | ||
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
One of the best montage of the tsunami effects. Hard to watch without feeling sad when you know thousands are drowning in the water as you watch the clips. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1894 Posts
DJ: Japan Edano: Daiichi No. 2 Reactor Facility Damaged ------------------------------ 23:00 DJ: Japan Nuclear Agency: Explosion Heard At Fukushima Daiichi No. 2 Reactor At 2110 GMT - Nikkei ------------------------------ 23:02 DJ: Japan Nuclear Agency: No. 2 Reactor Suppression Pool Damaged From Explosion ------------------------------ 23:11 DJ: Tepco: Explosion Heard At Fukushima Daiichi No.2 Reactor At 2100 GMT-2115 GMT ------------------------------ 23:12 DJ: Tepco: Declined Pressure In Reactor Suppression Pool ------------------------------ 23:19 DJ: Japan Nuclear Agency: Radiation Levels Outside Fukushima Daiichi Plant 965.5 Micro Sieverts At 2200 GMT - Kyodo ------------------------------ 23:24 DJ: Japan Nuclear Agency: No Serious Radiation Leak ------------------------------ 23:29 DJ: Higher Radiation Levels Measured In Ibaraki -- South Of Fukushima - Kyodo ------------------------------ 23:34 DJ: Japan Safety Agency: Radioactive Materials Feared To Be Leaking - Kyodo ------------------------------ 23:43 DJ: Tepco: Evacuated Officials To Avoid Radiation ------------------------------ 0:43 DJ: Fukushima's No. 2 Reactor Container Damaged, Radiation Leak Feared - Kyodo ------------------------------ 1:02 DJ: Radiation Levels Outside Fukushima Daiichi Plant Later Dropped To 2400 Micro Sieverts - NHK ------------------------------ | ||
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TimeOut
Germany1277 Posts
On March 15 2011 10:39 Rus_Brain wrote: 0:43 DJ: Fukushima's No. 2 Reactor Container Damaged, Radiation Leak Feared - Kyodo Official press release by TEPCO says the exact opposite: + Show Spoiler [Manual translation] + March 15th 2011 Tokyo Electric Power Company Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power Plant Today, at around 6:14AM JST, at the same time as the sound of an explosion was heard at the #2 reactor at the Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power plant's suppression chamber area, due to a decrease in the pressure within said chamber, it was judged that there existed the possibility that an abnormal event had occurred in the chamber. Henceforth, we are continuing efforts with full force to add water to the reactor pressure container, however, efforts to temporarily move personnel unconnected to this operation, including affiliated partners and TEPCO employees, to a safe facility on the premises have begun. At the present, we are making full efforts to ensure the safety of all personnel present at the Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power facility. Presently we are not measuring any deviation in the parameters of the number 2 reactor pressure container and reactor vessel. We would like to express our sincere apologies for causing distress to the people in the region. That is all. Source: http://www.tepco.co.jp/cc/press/11031504-j.html (Google Translate) | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
By the way, people like this... Wow, just wow. User was warned for this post | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
Some papers/channels are reporting that the supression chamber has been breached. Now, as far as I understand all of this, the supression chamber has a direct connection to the core. Doesn't this pretty much guarantee the nasty stuff spilling out (idione, caesium, etc)? And if caesium and iodine are leaking, wouldn't that mean that they won't be able to maintain cooling reactors 1 and 3 in the longterm? I mean, if one is leaking, the japanese won't have the manpower to rotate in enough new people, and aren't we looking at a complete meltdown of all 3 cores? On a different note: I hate that this is happening to Japan, the only country to actually experience the full effects of nuclear detonation. It's just not fair :/. | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
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NobleDog
United States65 Posts
She belongs in a previous era when they threw people into lakes to see if the guilty would float and the innocent sink. | ||
nihaolol
Sweden7 Posts
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