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Libyan Uprising - Page 56

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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated.
Keniji
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands2569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 00:24:18
March 19 2011 00:17 GMT
#1101
Edit: Nvm. See post below.
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
March 19 2011 00:22 GMT
#1102
Could we cut the debate here and keep it to the news, and commenting those news?

I've seen the same things being said a dozen times with NO effect at all. Such a large thread with so many participants is not made for a sincere debate; it's only about illuminated people trying to bring us the light ("the UN is so wrooong, they don't know what they're doing / thank God the UN did something, now let's go to Bahrein, Tibet and all over the world!")

I guess I'm just getting frustrated. I'm sure the posters who contributed 30 pages ago could just copy/paste their posts, it would answer what is discussed here just like it did a week ago. Nothing new, someone says it's about oil, then someone corrects them, then someone else says it again, etc, etc...
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 19 2011 00:29 GMT
#1103
Gaddafi's supply lines are already very stretched. But revolutionaries have been advised not to advance, and concentrate on defense.


I got reports about the supposed "zero hour" for attacks on Gaddafi, but I don't think I should share it just as yet. #Libya


Strategically, Gaddafi is more likely to try to attack Tobruq first, rather than go straight for Benghazi. #Libya


Files & records are being burned by regime in some parts of Tripoli. #Libya


Gaddafi troops are within 90 kms from Tobruq, and revolutionaries there are on high alert. #Libya


Misurata still successfully repelling Gaddafi attacks, but things are getting difficult supplies-wise. #Libya
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mofisto
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom585 Posts
March 19 2011 01:07 GMT
#1104
On March 19 2011 08:51 Cain0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 07:27 Pika Chu wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:16 Aurocaido wrote:
I don't really see the point of the huge media frenzy in Libya concerning defenceless citizens. Gadaffi is trying to quell an armed insurrection, leave Libya to deal with its own issues. If the UN really wants to support human rights they should intervene in countries like the Congo where innocent unarmed civilians are dying in the thousands. Or the UN could have actually did something in Darfur a billion years ago when the crisis was at its height instead of doing NOTHING.

Areas such as the Congo and Darfur are where the real human rights abuses are taking place, intervene there.


They have oil and money?


Libya has oil, Congo doesn't.



I think you'll find Congo does have oil. About 70% of congo's gdp is from oil. Get your facts straight pal
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 01:15:09
March 19 2011 01:12 GMT
#1105

I don't really see the point of the huge media frenzy in Libya concerning defenceless citizens. Gadaffi is trying to quell an armed insurrection, leave Libya to deal with its own issues. If the UN really wants to support human rights they should intervene in countries like the Congo where innocent unarmed civilians are dying in the thousands. Or the UN could have actually did something in Darfur a billion years ago when the crisis was at its height instead of doing NOTHING.

Areas such as the Congo and Darfur are where the real human rights abuses are taking place, intervene there.


Because in Libya, you have a very well eductated, secular, and organized opposition that is actively opposing a repressive one that has actively opposed the west and supported terrorists in the past. All you have to do is funnel in some money and jets and gtfo, and earned yourself a friendly, stable ally with lots of oil in a tumult region.

In Congo and Darfur, there is no such initiate, so intervening would literally be going in and setting up a freaking government yourself. It would be Afghanistan.

Honestly I think its justified, at least the present condition is. Right now there isn't anything super crazy going on right now, and until the people of those state themselves decide they want a liberal democracy, then we should stay out and just send some international aid and stuff.
Too Busy to Troll!
Mofisto
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom585 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 01:21:10
March 19 2011 01:20 GMT
#1106
British warplanes were poised to participate in bombing raids against tanks and other targets after David Cameron and Barack Obama issued an ultimatum to the Libyan leader.
The Prime Minister said that Britain would not tolerate Libya "festering" on Europe's borders, alluding to fears that Col Gaddafi may support terrorist attacks in this country.
In a statement on Friday night, the US president warned Col Gaddafi that he must withdraw troops from towns previously held by rebels, including Misurata and Zawiyah. The regime should also stop its advance on the rebel stronghold of Benghazi immediately, he said, and basic services including water and electricity should be returned to the areas.
Hillary Clinton, the US Secretary of State, said that the "final result" of international action against Libya must be Col Gaddafi's departure from power.
World leaders hope that by protecting rebel areas and civilians, Libyans will force the peaceful removal of the dictator and prevent massacres.


Latest news from the telegraph
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
Aurocaido
Profile Joined December 2009
Canada288 Posts
March 19 2011 01:25 GMT
#1107
Seems UN involvment is going beyond a simple no fly zone.
Elegy
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1629 Posts
March 19 2011 01:28 GMT
#1108
On March 19 2011 10:07 Mofisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 08:51 Cain0 wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:27 Pika Chu wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:16 Aurocaido wrote:
I don't really see the point of the huge media frenzy in Libya concerning defenceless citizens. Gadaffi is trying to quell an armed insurrection, leave Libya to deal with its own issues. If the UN really wants to support human rights they should intervene in countries like the Congo where innocent unarmed civilians are dying in the thousands. Or the UN could have actually did something in Darfur a billion years ago when the crisis was at its height instead of doing NOTHING.

Areas such as the Congo and Darfur are where the real human rights abuses are taking place, intervene there.


They have oil and money?


Libya has oil, Congo doesn't.



I think you'll find Congo does have oil. About 70% of congo's gdp is from oil. Get your facts straight pal


While I'm sure your quick googling netted you a wealth of knowledge, bear in mind Congo usually refers to the DRC, not the Republic of the Congo. DRC is where the conflicts are, and it has no oil.

Don't mean to derail, just can't stand inaccuracies in such matters,
Mofisto
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom585 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 02:07:59
March 19 2011 01:33 GMT
#1109
On March 19 2011 10:28 Elegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 10:07 Mofisto wrote:
On March 19 2011 08:51 Cain0 wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:27 Pika Chu wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:16 Aurocaido wrote:
I don't really see the point of the huge media frenzy in Libya concerning defenceless citizens. Gadaffi is trying to quell an armed insurrection, leave Libya to deal with its own issues. If the UN really wants to support human rights they should intervene in countries like the Congo where innocent unarmed civilians are dying in the thousands. Or the UN could have actually did something in Darfur a billion years ago when the crisis was at its height instead of doing NOTHING.

Areas such as the Congo and Darfur are where the real human rights abuses are taking place, intervene there.


They have oil and money?


Libya has oil, Congo doesn't.



I think you'll find Congo does have oil. About 70% of congo's gdp is from oil. Get your facts straight pal


DRC is where the conflicts are, and it has no oil.

Don't mean to derail, just can't stand inaccuracies in such matters,


Except for its offshore oil fields. I'm not a fan of inaccuracies either

Edit: Fair enough, sorry for derailing the thread

User was warned for this post
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
Elegy
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1629 Posts
March 19 2011 01:38 GMT
#1110
On March 19 2011 10:33 Mofisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 10:28 Elegy wrote:
On March 19 2011 10:07 Mofisto wrote:
On March 19 2011 08:51 Cain0 wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:27 Pika Chu wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:16 Aurocaido wrote:
I don't really see the point of the huge media frenzy in Libya concerning defenceless citizens. Gadaffi is trying to quell an armed insurrection, leave Libya to deal with its own issues. If the UN really wants to support human rights they should intervene in countries like the Congo where innocent unarmed civilians are dying in the thousands. Or the UN could have actually did something in Darfur a billion years ago when the crisis was at its height instead of doing NOTHING.

Areas such as the Congo and Darfur are where the real human rights abuses are taking place, intervene there.


They have oil and money?


Libya has oil, Congo doesn't.



I think you'll find Congo does have oil. About 70% of congo's gdp is from oil. Get your facts straight pal


DRC is where the conflicts are, and it has no oil.

Don't mean to derail, just can't stand inaccuracies in such matters,


Except for its offshore oil fields. I'm not a fan of inaccuracies either


Oil is not relevant to the DRC. You're trying to save face by arguing a fruitless point. Like Zambia, metals and minerals are the primary resources. I'm on my phone, really hard to go into detail
But I'm sure wiki does a fine job on DRC economy

User was warned for this post
Weedk
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States507 Posts
March 19 2011 01:43 GMT
#1111
On March 19 2011 10:38 Elegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 10:33 Mofisto wrote:
On March 19 2011 10:28 Elegy wrote:
On March 19 2011 10:07 Mofisto wrote:
On March 19 2011 08:51 Cain0 wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:27 Pika Chu wrote:
On March 19 2011 07:16 Aurocaido wrote:
I don't really see the point of the huge media frenzy in Libya concerning defenceless citizens. Gadaffi is trying to quell an armed insurrection, leave Libya to deal with its own issues. If the UN really wants to support human rights they should intervene in countries like the Congo where innocent unarmed civilians are dying in the thousands. Or the UN could have actually did something in Darfur a billion years ago when the crisis was at its height instead of doing NOTHING.

Areas such as the Congo and Darfur are where the real human rights abuses are taking place, intervene there.


They have oil and money?


Libya has oil, Congo doesn't.



I think you'll find Congo does have oil. About 70% of congo's gdp is from oil. Get your facts straight pal


DRC is where the conflicts are, and it has no oil.

Don't mean to derail, just can't stand inaccuracies in such matters,


Except for its offshore oil fields. I'm not a fan of inaccuracies either


Oil is not relevant to the DRC. You're trying to save face by arguing a fruitless point. Like Zambia, metals and minerals are the primary resources. I'm on my phone, really hard to go into detail
But I'm sure wiki does a fine job on DRC economy


According to wiki, 55% of the DRC's GDP is in agriculture. But we digress from the purpose of this thread.


User was warned for this post
Elegy
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1629 Posts
March 19 2011 01:45 GMT
#1112
Yes i was referring to the more "valuable" exports, I checked the wiki article
And it was gerribl
Disquiet
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia628 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 01:52:43
March 19 2011 01:50 GMT
#1113
On March 19 2011 08:54 Taguchi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 08:30 Pika Chu wrote:
Taguchi, oil is just one of the factors, and after some countries openly supported the rebbelion i doubt Gaddafi would sell them oil at the same decent price.

Anyway in a war there are much important places to make money. Rebuilding is why a war is so profitable, invading countries will get very big contracts on rebuilding the country after war... infrastructure and everything.

Do you see Iraq as an occupation? Do you also see it as a necessity? I see it as both. I don't want the same to Libya, ok we take down the dictator, but what do we do if we find out it's unstable (giving the tribe organization culture) and we need to sit around for decades to babysit them so it doesn't turn out in a civil war. You think we can leave if that happens? No we can't, unless it's very stable us leaving means very much blood on our hands, more than letting them sort it out themselves right now.


i just see the intervention in libya as the morally correct thing to do and i dont see how on earth anyone can argue on this point, given what gaddafi has said and done in the last few weeks

i also believe it took that long for the americans to decide to get involved precisely because they saw no great profit out of it
france and england have far greater ties to the region and can thus profit the most from rebuilding etc (so they pushed for intervention more than the others)

from a moral perspective, the libyan situation seems clear cut

from an economic/political perspective its a bit more jumbled
hopefully the westerners will decide that befriending the arab nations is be better than supporting oppressive dictators (or not, when u look at bahrain, or the time it took to ask for mubarak to step down, but this is an ongoing situation so there is still hope)

the bottom line is never going to involve morality in international affairs, but when morality and the money trail coincide, why the hell argue?


You really think the rebels will be any better than gaddafi? This is as much about tribe vs tribe as it is removing a corrupt dictator. I don't know if you know but in the past gaddafi was the one leading the rebellion to remove a dictator, and look how that turned out.

Furthermore I don't expect peace to come to libya for a long time. There was a chance if gaddafi crushed the rebellion but if the rebels win... well lets just say there are a lot of gaddafi loyalists, who will no doubt continue to fight. All I see the UN having done is extend a long and bloody civil war by helping the losing side.
Mofisto
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom585 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 02:00:12
March 19 2011 01:57 GMT
#1114
In Washington on Friday, Hillary Clinton said the United States would respond only to the actions of the Libyan government, rather than its rhetoric.
The US Secretary of State said that it was not at all clear whether the announcement of a ceasefire was being matched by a cessation of violence on the ground by forces loyal to Col Gaddafi.
The statement came after reports of continued fighting in the Libyan city of Misurata.
Mrs Clinton added that the American government would continue in its demands for Muammar Gaddafi to step down.
"We will continue to work with our partners in the international community to press Gaddafi to leave and to support the legitimate aspirations of the Libyan people."


Seems like we'll be imposing more than a no fly zone
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
March 19 2011 02:06 GMT
#1115
If I remember correctly, the UN didn't only vote a no-fly zone but the deployment of any means necessary to protect the lives of civilians, or something along those lines (which means that they can indeed do much more than stopping all air traffic).

I'm also very skeptical about anyone claiming that there are "many Ghadaffi loyalists". The only reports of such support that I have heard have been people in Tripoli chanting in the streets... while many of them admitted to the press that they were in fact from the police or state security.

Having to hire mercenaries to replace his own army also seems like an odd indication that there is a large support for Ghadaffi's action. I thought he was quite isolated from the start.

Please explain.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Taguchi
Profile Joined February 2003
Greece1575 Posts
March 19 2011 02:15 GMT
#1116
On March 19 2011 10:50 Disquiet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 08:54 Taguchi wrote:
On March 19 2011 08:30 Pika Chu wrote:
Taguchi, oil is just one of the factors, and after some countries openly supported the rebbelion i doubt Gaddafi would sell them oil at the same decent price.

Anyway in a war there are much important places to make money. Rebuilding is why a war is so profitable, invading countries will get very big contracts on rebuilding the country after war... infrastructure and everything.

Do you see Iraq as an occupation? Do you also see it as a necessity? I see it as both. I don't want the same to Libya, ok we take down the dictator, but what do we do if we find out it's unstable (giving the tribe organization culture) and we need to sit around for decades to babysit them so it doesn't turn out in a civil war. You think we can leave if that happens? No we can't, unless it's very stable us leaving means very much blood on our hands, more than letting them sort it out themselves right now.


i just see the intervention in libya as the morally correct thing to do and i dont see how on earth anyone can argue on this point, given what gaddafi has said and done in the last few weeks

i also believe it took that long for the americans to decide to get involved precisely because they saw no great profit out of it
france and england have far greater ties to the region and can thus profit the most from rebuilding etc (so they pushed for intervention more than the others)

from a moral perspective, the libyan situation seems clear cut

from an economic/political perspective its a bit more jumbled
hopefully the westerners will decide that befriending the arab nations is be better than supporting oppressive dictators (or not, when u look at bahrain, or the time it took to ask for mubarak to step down, but this is an ongoing situation so there is still hope)

the bottom line is never going to involve morality in international affairs, but when morality and the money trail coincide, why the hell argue?


You really think the rebels will be any better than gaddafi? This is as much about tribe vs tribe as it is removing a corrupt dictator. I don't know if you know but in the past gaddafi was the one leading the rebellion to remove a dictator, and look how that turned out.

Furthermore I don't expect peace to come to libya for a long time. There was a chance if gaddafi crushed the rebellion but if the rebels win... well lets just say there are a lot of gaddafi loyalists, who will no doubt continue to fight. All I see the UN having done is extend a long and bloody civil war by helping the losing side.


so the preferable solution to a possibly long and bloody civil war (it still could turn out for the better) would be a short and bloody massacre (gaddafi expressly promised this to his rivals just a couple days ago)?

we dont know how the rebels will turn out, its entirely possible they'll become the new taliban in a few decades' time (or they could grow to become a modern state, they sure have the money flow available to do that)
we do know what gaddafi is, by word and deed, and its no good

the UN is giving those people a chance, which is good
we will see in the next few days/weeks how things will turn out
Great minds might think alike, but fastest hands rule the day~
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 19 2011 02:26 GMT
#1117
Confirmed: UAE and Qatar are sending fighter jets and pilots.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Aurocaido
Profile Joined December 2009
Canada288 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 02:32:27
March 19 2011 02:29 GMT
#1118
He also offered amnesty to whoever would throw down their weapons for a speedy resolution to the conflict. I keep hearing about the killing of innocent civilians yet the reports I have seen are all uncoroberated. The majority of dead seem to be combatants, of course there will be civilian casualties its a civil war. However there just is not enough evidence for me to believe the massacre story just yet.

I would really like that fact finding group to be sent that the Libyan government is calling for from the UN.
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
March 19 2011 02:44 GMT
#1119
Check out reports from the FPA, Reuters and Al-Jazeera, of cities being bombed (we know for a fact that Libyan artillery isn't very accurate), mercenaries using ambulances to raid protesters (not only armed fighters), and events in cities like Zawiyah (reported by a french journalist who was there when the attacks begun and who witnessed the attack of civilians; even ambulances were shot at, when trying to take the wounded away).

The amnesty is also clearly a joke, knowing that Benghazi has always been hostile to Ghadaffi. It would be foolish of him not to use this opportunity as a way to "cleanse" the city which is highly opposed to Ghadaffi's regime.
Remeber that he executed many soldiers and officers who refused to open fire on protesters (who weren't armed at that point). His word doesn't seem very solid, since he's mainly relying on his own ressources and militia.

And why do you rule out the protesters killed by Ghadaffi's troops long before they were armed?
Just an example:
"There are reports that between 600 and 2,000 people have already been killed in Tripoli. We don't know the absolute accurate number because we haven't got people there who are able to do assessments ... we've seen some horrific pictures of what is happening and we really want to be able to go in to help people in the time of need."

Source
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Aurocaido
Profile Joined December 2009
Canada288 Posts
March 19 2011 02:56 GMT
#1120
I have been watching Al Jazeera almost nonstop since the Earthquake in Japan. The news I have seen on Libya has been all claims made by the newscasters that was not coroberated. Maybe I have just missed those news broadcasts that coroberate those stories, I will keep watching. And the source you provided was reporting on bombers attacking a munitions depot, not civilian targets.
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