Libyan Uprising - Page 56
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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. | ||
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
I've seen the same things being said a dozen times with NO effect at all. Such a large thread with so many participants is not made for a sincere debate; it's only about illuminated people trying to bring us the light ("the UN is so wrooong, they don't know what they're doing / thank God the UN did something, now let's go to Bahrein, Tibet and all over the world!") I guess I'm just getting frustrated. I'm sure the posters who contributed 30 pages ago could just copy/paste their posts, it would answer what is discussed here just like it did a week ago. Nothing new, someone says it's about oil, then someone corrects them, then someone else says it again, etc, etc... | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Gaddafi's supply lines are already very stretched. But revolutionaries have been advised not to advance, and concentrate on defense. I got reports about the supposed "zero hour" for attacks on Gaddafi, but I don't think I should share it just as yet. #Libya Strategically, Gaddafi is more likely to try to attack Tobruq first, rather than go straight for Benghazi. #Libya Files & records are being burned by regime in some parts of Tripoli. #Libya Gaddafi troops are within 90 kms from Tobruq, and revolutionaries there are on high alert. #Libya Misurata still successfully repelling Gaddafi attacks, but things are getting difficult supplies-wise. #Libya | ||
Mofisto
United Kingdom585 Posts
I think you'll find Congo does have oil. About 70% of congo's gdp is from oil. Get your facts straight pal | ||
Half
United States2554 Posts
I don't really see the point of the huge media frenzy in Libya concerning defenceless citizens. Gadaffi is trying to quell an armed insurrection, leave Libya to deal with its own issues. If the UN really wants to support human rights they should intervene in countries like the Congo where innocent unarmed civilians are dying in the thousands. Or the UN could have actually did something in Darfur a billion years ago when the crisis was at its height instead of doing NOTHING. Areas such as the Congo and Darfur are where the real human rights abuses are taking place, intervene there. Because in Libya, you have a very well eductated, secular, and organized opposition that is actively opposing a repressive one that has actively opposed the west and supported terrorists in the past. All you have to do is funnel in some money and jets and gtfo, and earned yourself a friendly, stable ally with lots of oil in a tumult region. In Congo and Darfur, there is no such initiate, so intervening would literally be going in and setting up a freaking government yourself. It would be Afghanistan. Honestly I think its justified, at least the present condition is. Right now there isn't anything super crazy going on right now, and until the people of those state themselves decide they want a liberal democracy, then we should stay out and just send some international aid and stuff. | ||
Mofisto
United Kingdom585 Posts
British warplanes were poised to participate in bombing raids against tanks and other targets after David Cameron and Barack Obama issued an ultimatum to the Libyan leader. The Prime Minister said that Britain would not tolerate Libya "festering" on Europe's borders, alluding to fears that Col Gaddafi may support terrorist attacks in this country. In a statement on Friday night, the US president warned Col Gaddafi that he must withdraw troops from towns previously held by rebels, including Misurata and Zawiyah. The regime should also stop its advance on the rebel stronghold of Benghazi immediately, he said, and basic services including water and electricity should be returned to the areas. Hillary Clinton, the US Secretary of State, said that the "final result" of international action against Libya must be Col Gaddafi's departure from power. World leaders hope that by protecting rebel areas and civilians, Libyans will force the peaceful removal of the dictator and prevent massacres. Latest news from the telegraph | ||
Aurocaido
Canada288 Posts
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On March 19 2011 10:07 Mofisto wrote: I think you'll find Congo does have oil. About 70% of congo's gdp is from oil. Get your facts straight pal While I'm sure your quick googling netted you a wealth of knowledge, bear in mind Congo usually refers to the DRC, not the Republic of the Congo. DRC is where the conflicts are, and it has no oil. Don't mean to derail, just can't stand inaccuracies in such matters, | ||
Mofisto
United Kingdom585 Posts
On March 19 2011 10:28 Elegy wrote: DRC is where the conflicts are, and it has no oil. Don't mean to derail, just can't stand inaccuracies in such matters, Except for its offshore oil fields. I'm not a fan of inaccuracies either Edit: Fair enough, sorry for derailing the thread User was warned for this post | ||
Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On March 19 2011 10:33 Mofisto wrote: Except for its offshore oil fields. I'm not a fan of inaccuracies either Oil is not relevant to the DRC. You're trying to save face by arguing a fruitless point. Like Zambia, metals and minerals are the primary resources. I'm on my phone, really hard to go into detail But I'm sure wiki does a fine job on DRC economy User was warned for this post | ||
Weedk
United States507 Posts
On March 19 2011 10:38 Elegy wrote: Oil is not relevant to the DRC. You're trying to save face by arguing a fruitless point. Like Zambia, metals and minerals are the primary resources. I'm on my phone, really hard to go into detail But I'm sure wiki does a fine job on DRC economy According to wiki, 55% of the DRC's GDP is in agriculture. But we digress from the purpose of this thread. User was warned for this post | ||
Elegy
United States1629 Posts
And it was gerribl | ||
Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
On March 19 2011 08:54 Taguchi wrote: i just see the intervention in libya as the morally correct thing to do and i dont see how on earth anyone can argue on this point, given what gaddafi has said and done in the last few weeks i also believe it took that long for the americans to decide to get involved precisely because they saw no great profit out of it france and england have far greater ties to the region and can thus profit the most from rebuilding etc (so they pushed for intervention more than the others) from a moral perspective, the libyan situation seems clear cut from an economic/political perspective its a bit more jumbled hopefully the westerners will decide that befriending the arab nations is be better than supporting oppressive dictators (or not, when u look at bahrain, or the time it took to ask for mubarak to step down, but this is an ongoing situation so there is still hope) the bottom line is never going to involve morality in international affairs, but when morality and the money trail coincide, why the hell argue? You really think the rebels will be any better than gaddafi? This is as much about tribe vs tribe as it is removing a corrupt dictator. I don't know if you know but in the past gaddafi was the one leading the rebellion to remove a dictator, and look how that turned out. Furthermore I don't expect peace to come to libya for a long time. There was a chance if gaddafi crushed the rebellion but if the rebels win... well lets just say there are a lot of gaddafi loyalists, who will no doubt continue to fight. All I see the UN having done is extend a long and bloody civil war by helping the losing side. | ||
Mofisto
United Kingdom585 Posts
In Washington on Friday, Hillary Clinton said the United States would respond only to the actions of the Libyan government, rather than its rhetoric. The US Secretary of State said that it was not at all clear whether the announcement of a ceasefire was being matched by a cessation of violence on the ground by forces loyal to Col Gaddafi. The statement came after reports of continued fighting in the Libyan city of Misurata. Mrs Clinton added that the American government would continue in its demands for Muammar Gaddafi to step down. "We will continue to work with our partners in the international community to press Gaddafi to leave and to support the legitimate aspirations of the Libyan people." Seems like we'll be imposing more than a no fly zone | ||
Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
I'm also very skeptical about anyone claiming that there are "many Ghadaffi loyalists". The only reports of such support that I have heard have been people in Tripoli chanting in the streets... while many of them admitted to the press that they were in fact from the police or state security. Having to hire mercenaries to replace his own army also seems like an odd indication that there is a large support for Ghadaffi's action. I thought he was quite isolated from the start. Please explain. | ||
Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On March 19 2011 10:50 Disquiet wrote: You really think the rebels will be any better than gaddafi? This is as much about tribe vs tribe as it is removing a corrupt dictator. I don't know if you know but in the past gaddafi was the one leading the rebellion to remove a dictator, and look how that turned out. Furthermore I don't expect peace to come to libya for a long time. There was a chance if gaddafi crushed the rebellion but if the rebels win... well lets just say there are a lot of gaddafi loyalists, who will no doubt continue to fight. All I see the UN having done is extend a long and bloody civil war by helping the losing side. so the preferable solution to a possibly long and bloody civil war (it still could turn out for the better) would be a short and bloody massacre (gaddafi expressly promised this to his rivals just a couple days ago)? we dont know how the rebels will turn out, its entirely possible they'll become the new taliban in a few decades' time (or they could grow to become a modern state, they sure have the money flow available to do that) we do know what gaddafi is, by word and deed, and its no good the UN is giving those people a chance, which is good we will see in the next few days/weeks how things will turn out | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Aurocaido
Canada288 Posts
I would really like that fact finding group to be sent that the Libyan government is calling for from the UN. | ||
Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
The amnesty is also clearly a joke, knowing that Benghazi has always been hostile to Ghadaffi. It would be foolish of him not to use this opportunity as a way to "cleanse" the city which is highly opposed to Ghadaffi's regime. Remeber that he executed many soldiers and officers who refused to open fire on protesters (who weren't armed at that point). His word doesn't seem very solid, since he's mainly relying on his own ressources and militia. And why do you rule out the protesters killed by Ghadaffi's troops long before they were armed? Just an example: "There are reports that between 600 and 2,000 people have already been killed in Tripoli. We don't know the absolute accurate number because we haven't got people there who are able to do assessments ... we've seen some horrific pictures of what is happening and we really want to be able to go in to help people in the time of need." Source | ||
Aurocaido
Canada288 Posts
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