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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. |
On March 18 2011 09:06 RxN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:03 Derez wrote:On March 18 2011 08:55 Fattah wrote:
Gaddafi already adpoted the Israeli approach of war in 1956 and 1967, by just running to the furthest point and declaring it in their hands. All the other small cities will fall after that. The Israelis held only Suez and left whole Sinai untoched. Gaddafi might try to hold Tobruk and wait for the rest to fall. Then, diplomacy starts again. French airplanes can be over libya in a matter of hours, not days. Ghadaffi's militay basicly consists of 3 pick-up trucks and 2 crop dusters. The UN resolution allows for a 'no-drive zone' (incl. actively bombing ghadaffi's troops). We've had this situation before, go google highway of death. Ghadaffi isn't taking another city. So it's not a No-Fly Zone and more of a direct military intervention on behalf of the rebels.
It's a resolution that allows any means neccesary to protect civilians, but it allows no invasion of libya.
The most extreme option is a 'no-drive' policy, where loyal troops get actively targetted by airplanes, usually combined with special forces presence in the country. What however can never happen under the current resolution is western countries deploying thousands of troops on libyan soil.
On another note: Look at Benghazi now. The UN can never ever let Ghadaffi touch it now I'd say, it would be the biggest discreditment in UN history after the Suez debacle. They wouldn't have made this resolution if they weren't able to enforce it right now. If Ghadaffi tries anything, you're gonna see stuff explode rather soon.
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On March 18 2011 09:11 accela wrote:
oh great another "humanitarian" war
there were plenty of good points in time those past weeks/months for UN to actually make a difference and save hundreds of lives in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.
now this decision is more like a bad joke and smells kinda like invasion in the long term.
Tunisia and Egypt were not even close to what happens in lybia.
An Invasion is not possible.
At least not with this resolution because it excludes troops on the ground.
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On March 18 2011 09:11 accela wrote:
oh great another "humanitarian" war
there were plenty of good points in time those past weeks/months for UN to actually make a difference and save hundreds of lives in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.
now this decision is more like a bad joke and smells kinda like invasion in the long term.
what? Why would they have intervened in Tunisia or Egypt when they shouldn't in Lybia now? I agree that it is kinda late for Libya but still definitely better than nothing.
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Where was the UN for Gaza, where was it for Tunisia, where was it for Egypt, where was it for Yemen, Bahrain, Georgia, Tibet, Iraq...........
Apples and oranges. They hate gaddafi, spotlight his "shit" mixed in with a few billion dollars and you got a resolution.
The Arab states were asleep for far to long that they allowed the US and EU handle our shit for us.
Snipers? Happened in Egypt and Tunisia. But, I know that that is not the main reason.
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On March 18 2011 09:11 accela wrote:
oh great another "humanitarian" war
there were plenty of good points in time those past weeks/months for UN to actually make a difference and save hundreds of lives in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.
now this decision is more like a bad joke and smells kinda like invasion in the long term.
The winners at the UN were too busy trying to pass a measure praising Libya, who is a member of the Human Rights council and held the rotating presidency, for their stellar advancements in human rights.
The UN is one gigantic joke and actually expecting them to be timely on something is amusing. Just look at how they sat there on Darfur while the Muslim Janjaweed carried out a genocide.
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On March 18 2011 09:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +CAIRO—Egypt's military has begun shipping arms over the border to Libyan rebels with Washington's knowledge, U.S. and Libyan rebel officials said.
The shipments—mostly small arms such as assault rifles and ammunition—appear to be the first confirmed case of an outside government arming the rebel fighters. Those fighters have been losing ground for days in the face of a steady westward advance by forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
The Egyptian shipments are the strongest indication to date that some Arab countries are heeding Western calls to take a lead in efforts to intervene on behalf of pro-democracy rebels in their fight against Mr. Gadhafi in Libya. Washington and other Western countries have long voiced frustration with Arab states' unwillingness to help resolve crises in their own region, even as they criticized Western powers for attempting to do so. Source
This is not surprising as it was the Arab league ( name ? ) that called for a no fly zone over Libya. It is good to see Arab nations standing behind their besieged neighbors.
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On March 18 2011 09:22 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:CAIRO—Egypt's military has begun shipping arms over the border to Libyan rebels with Washington's knowledge, U.S. and Libyan rebel officials said.
The shipments—mostly small arms such as assault rifles and ammunition—appear to be the first confirmed case of an outside government arming the rebel fighters. Those fighters have been losing ground for days in the face of a steady westward advance by forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
The Egyptian shipments are the strongest indication to date that some Arab countries are heeding Western calls to take a lead in efforts to intervene on behalf of pro-democracy rebels in their fight against Mr. Gadhafi in Libya. Washington and other Western countries have long voiced frustration with Arab states' unwillingness to help resolve crises in their own region, even as they criticized Western powers for attempting to do so. Source This is not surprising as it was the Arab league ( name ? ) that called for a no fly zone over Libya. It is good to see Arab nations standing behind their besieged neighbors.
As Algeria, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran violently suppress their own protesters.
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On March 18 2011 09:22 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:CAIRO—Egypt's military has begun shipping arms over the border to Libyan rebels with Washington's knowledge, U.S. and Libyan rebel officials said.
The shipments—mostly small arms such as assault rifles and ammunition—appear to be the first confirmed case of an outside government arming the rebel fighters. Those fighters have been losing ground for days in the face of a steady westward advance by forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
The Egyptian shipments are the strongest indication to date that some Arab countries are heeding Western calls to take a lead in efforts to intervene on behalf of pro-democracy rebels in their fight against Mr. Gadhafi in Libya. Washington and other Western countries have long voiced frustration with Arab states' unwillingness to help resolve crises in their own region, even as they criticized Western powers for attempting to do so. Source This is not surprising as it was the Arab league ( name ? ) that called for a no fly zone over Libya. It is good to see Arab nations standing behind their besieged neighbors.
Amro Mousa the secretary general of the Arab league and Egyptian presidential candidate says hello Arab people I am with you on this one. (with a lol and a troll face at the end)
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On March 18 2011 09:22 RxN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:11 accela wrote:
oh great another "humanitarian" war
there were plenty of good points in time those past weeks/months for UN to actually make a difference and save hundreds of lives in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.
now this decision is more like a bad joke and smells kinda like invasion in the long term. The winners at the UN were too busy trying to pass a measure praising Libya, who is a member of the Human Rights council and held the rotating presidency, for their stellar advancements in human rights. The UN is one gigantic joke and actually expecting them to be timely on something is amusing. Just look at how they sat there on Darfur while the Muslim Janjaweed carried out a genocide.
I dont get what your problem is. Ont he one hand you complain, that the UN let a genocide in Darfur happen and on the other hand you dont want them to prevent another genocide in Lybia.
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On March 18 2011 09:24 RxN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:22 absalom86 wrote:On March 18 2011 09:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:CAIRO—Egypt's military has begun shipping arms over the border to Libyan rebels with Washington's knowledge, U.S. and Libyan rebel officials said.
The shipments—mostly small arms such as assault rifles and ammunition—appear to be the first confirmed case of an outside government arming the rebel fighters. Those fighters have been losing ground for days in the face of a steady westward advance by forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
The Egyptian shipments are the strongest indication to date that some Arab countries are heeding Western calls to take a lead in efforts to intervene on behalf of pro-democracy rebels in their fight against Mr. Gadhafi in Libya. Washington and other Western countries have long voiced frustration with Arab states' unwillingness to help resolve crises in their own region, even as they criticized Western powers for attempting to do so. Source This is not surprising as it was the Arab league ( name ? ) that called for a no fly zone over Libya. It is good to see Arab nations standing behind their besieged neighbors. As Algeria, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran violently suppress their own protesters.
Iran is not a member of the Arab league #_#
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On March 18 2011 09:17 Fattah wrote:
Where was the UN for Gaza, where was it for Tunisia, where was it for Egypt, where was it for Yemen, Bahrain, Georgia, Tibet, Iraq...........
Apples and oranges. They hate gaddafi, spotlight his "shit" mixed in with a few billion dollars and you got a resolution.
The Arab states were asleep for far to long that they allowed the US and EU handle our shit for us.
Snipers? Happened in Egypt and Tunisia. But, I know that that is not the main reason.
The U.S. is a bigot when it comes to her allies, as is China, Russia, the U.K., France and so forth. Welcome to the world and useless U.N. So remember where you were when the United Nations seemed to do something useful for once.
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Regarding the military feasibility for using air power and sea power against Ghadafi:
I think a lot of people don't realize how close to NATO soil this is, and how much the Ghadafi army is outgunned in every way.
The libyan army was not very big from the outset, and after all the mutinys we dont know how much is left. Libya is flat, with long swathes of deserts between the towns and cities. This isn't Afghanistan or Yugoslavia for that matter, air power is going to be totally unstoppable for anything Ghadafi can bring to the table if this becomes a shooting war.
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On March 18 2011 09:27 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:24 RxN wrote:On March 18 2011 09:22 absalom86 wrote:On March 18 2011 09:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:CAIRO—Egypt's military has begun shipping arms over the border to Libyan rebels with Washington's knowledge, U.S. and Libyan rebel officials said.
The shipments—mostly small arms such as assault rifles and ammunition—appear to be the first confirmed case of an outside government arming the rebel fighters. Those fighters have been losing ground for days in the face of a steady westward advance by forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
The Egyptian shipments are the strongest indication to date that some Arab countries are heeding Western calls to take a lead in efforts to intervene on behalf of pro-democracy rebels in their fight against Mr. Gadhafi in Libya. Washington and other Western countries have long voiced frustration with Arab states' unwillingness to help resolve crises in their own region, even as they criticized Western powers for attempting to do so. Source This is not surprising as it was the Arab league ( name ? ) that called for a no fly zone over Libya. It is good to see Arab nations standing behind their besieged neighbors. As Algeria, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran violently suppress their own protesters. Iran is not a member of the Arab league #_#
True. Got carried away rattling off the list of Muslim countries violently suppressing protesters. My mistake.
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Or it could be the catalyst for another Islamist state cut from the same cloth as Iran popping up. The rebels are very disorganized, there will probably be a power vacuum should Qadaffi fall and, to top it off, eastern Libya is a breeding ground for jihadists/terrorists.
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On March 18 2011 09:32 RxN wrote:Or it could be the catalyst for another Islamist state cut from the same cloth as Iran popping up. The rebels are very disorganized, there will probably be a power vacuum should Qadaffi fall and, to top it off, eastern Libya is a breeding ground for jihadists/terrorists.
Iran islamists ( Shias) have nothing to do with Sunni islamists. People in Libya are Sunni #_#
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On March 18 2011 09:35 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:32 RxN wrote:Or it could be the catalyst for another Islamist state cut from the same cloth as Iran popping up. The rebels are very disorganized, there will probably be a power vacuum should Qadaffi fall and, to top it off, eastern Libya is a breeding ground for jihadists/terrorists. Iran islamists ( Shias) have nothing to do with Sunni islamists. People in Libya are Sunni #_#
No way? Didn't know that!
I was using Iran as an example of a radical Islamist state that is not a democracy nor a beacon of positive change.
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US is ramping up the rhetoric very very quickly. Gates quoted on Al-Jazeera saying something along the lines of 'we expect to bomb soon' and a state dept. guy who seems pretty confident of their ability to enforce it.
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On March 18 2011 09:37 RxN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:35 Boblion wrote:On March 18 2011 09:32 RxN wrote:Or it could be the catalyst for another Islamist state cut from the same cloth as Iran popping up. The rebels are very disorganized, there will probably be a power vacuum should Qadaffi fall and, to top it off, eastern Libya is a breeding ground for jihadists/terrorists. Iran islamists ( Shias) have nothing to do with Sunni islamists. People in Libya are Sunni #_# No way? Didn't know that! I was using Iran as an example of a radical Islamist state that is not a democracy nor a beacon of positive change.
Well you could have used a Sunni Islamist state instead, like Saudi Arabia for example... oh wait they are best friends with the US !
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Oh right, you fear another Libyan state. Now your posts make sense. You're still wrong but I understand now.
Jihad is a result of oppression. The solution is foreign light and "positive" intervention.
Letting Ghadaffi massacre thousands and the next generation will be 100% jihadist, of that you can be sure.
Now I don't understand you again.
Btw you quoted countries where the government has repressed revols, but comparing Bouteflika's repression to Ghadaffi's attacks, really?
If I punch you and then kill your neighbour with a baseball bat, do you consider you've been hurt in the same way?
Even if you take these problems from a very cynical/egoistical point of view, you still need to see that there is something happening, and that the west needed to intervene to make sure they keep their interests intact, whether the people in charge remain the same or whether they change. Helping Libya is a way to make sure that the west wil have its peace of cake and not another hostile lion kept in a cage by some corrupt lunatic.
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EPT
