On October 03 2011 04:02 Kukaracha wrote: I think it should either be a simple news feed with no debate whatsoever or else it shouldn't be changed. Some posters have already been tempbanned for the usual conspiracy trolling (read: 9/11) but you can't prevent people from voicing their opinion. There is sometimes a very thin line between conspiracy theories and the actual truth.
When? I honestly cannot think of a conspiracy theory that is even remotely close to truth.
Well, sionism IS much more than just jewish people who want their Holy Land back. And even though NWO theories are just the creation of a bunch of paranoid nutjobs, it IS true that lobbys and financial groups have powers comparable to those governments have. It IS true that conflicts were "banned" out of western territories to be carried out by "middle-men" (1950, Korea, 1964 Nam, 1973 Israël, etc...), it IS true that the military-industrial complex is completely out of control.
Etc, etc. Reading the CIA history is also a big source of paranoia, f-e Operation Phoenix and a number of assassinations of intellectuals in Vietnam to "cut the snake's head", teachers, writers, doctors, in short, innocent people.
The situation is not that different from the European monarchy. It's like one big favoured family that will defend their common superiority, even though conflicts exist among them. Wars opposed France to Prussia, England, Spain, but when the French people decided to cut the king's head, Europe rushed to his defense.
On October 03 2011 15:25 Reedjr wrote: When? I honestly cannot think of a conspiracy theory that is even remotely close to truth.
NATO and CIA organized false flag acts of terror in Europe, killing europeans, to blame it on "red brigades" later. Sound like a crazy conspiracy theory, doesn't it? Pretty sure would result a ban on TL (prior to times when it surfaced of course) "Oh no, it cannot be true, I cannot believe it, we don't do such things". The brain rejects the facts that does not correspond to a personal vision of universe.
But it is a historical fact. It is not a widespread knowledge, for obvious reasons. Try to google it yourself. Hint: Italy. We can be sure that the bigger part of such operations will never surface. Everything is possible.
On October 03 2011 15:25 Reedjr wrote: When? I honestly cannot think of a conspiracy theory that is even remotely close to truth.
NATO and CIA organized false flag acts of terror in Europe, killing europeans, to blame it on "red brigades" later. Sound like a crazy conspiracy theory, doesn't it? Pretty sure would result a ban on TL (prior to times when it surfaced of course) "Oh no, it cannot be true, I cannot believe it, we don't do such things". The brain rejects the facts that does not correspond to a personal vision of universe.
But it is a historical fact. It is not a widespread knowledge, for obvious reasons. Try to google it yourself. Hint: Italy. We can be sure that the bigger part of such operations will never surface. Everything is possible.
On October 03 2011 15:25 Reedjr wrote: When? I honestly cannot think of a conspiracy theory that is even remotely close to truth.
NATO and CIA organized false flag acts of terror in Europe, killing europeans, to blame it on "red brigades" later. Sound like a crazy conspiracy theory, doesn't it? Pretty sure would result a ban on TL (prior to times when it surfaced of course) "Oh no, it cannot be true, I cannot believe it, we don't do such things". The brain rejects the facts that does not correspond to a personal vision of universe.
But it is a historical fact. It is not a widespread knowledge, for obvious reasons. Try to google it yourself. Hint: Italy. We can be sure that the bigger part of such operations will never surface. Everything is possible.
And do you have a credible source for that?
Apparently you need to google it, with a hint of Italy.
To his defense, he's talking about the Italian Gladio who posed as a group on the side of the Red Brigades but who has been said to be controlled by the CIA by many journalists and historians.
On October 04 2011 01:09 Kukaracha wrote: To his defense, he's talking about the Italian Gladio who posed as a group on the side of the Red Brigades but who has been said to be controlled by the CIA by many journalists and historians.
Edit: well, too late.
Gladio and this:
NATO and CIA organized false flag acts of terror in Europe, killing europeans, to blame it on "red brigades" later.
Are miles apart.
It's like the people that love to talk about operation Northwood but when you point out that the plan only involved fake terrorist atacks with no casualties, or you point out that it never even moved past planning stages, they suddenly want to change the topic.
Telling half truths is little different from lying. Geyzer remains his dishonest self.
zalz, I expected you to knew this. Instead you say that I am lying. I am disappointed...
Nothing to do with being lazy, it's rather you should never expect people to find sources themselves when making certain claims. You should provide them yourself, if anything you're the one being lazy.
Yeah, operation Gladio. Actually it was not only italian thing, it was all over Europe, "stay-behind" operation. There is a long BBC documentary
This is a big thing of course. While "stay-behind" operation is accepted, USA rejects to take responsibility for bombings and will keep it re. However it was investigated in Italy and the link was proved. For example, Wikipedia "The Bologna massacre (Italian: Strage di Bologna) was a terrorist bombing of the Central Station at Bologna, Italy, on the morning of 2 August 1980, which killed 85 people and wounded more than 200. The attack has been attributed to the neo-fascist terrorist organization, Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari, and connected to Operation Gladio, which has been investigated by the EU." There is also such thing http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/European_Parliament_resolution_on_Gladio The operation has very bad influence on the image of West, and no one wants to mess with USA, so the further investigations are slowed down...
I do not think we have to discuss it in the topic of Libya, I just wanted to show that everything is possible. The fact that the Earth is round was a conspiracy theory in the past, for example. There are needs, possibilities and public opinion and nothing else from political and historical perspective.
NATO and CIA organized false flag acts of terror in Europe, killing europeans, to blame it on "red brigades" later.
Are miles apart.
Why? At list one episode was proved. Gladio was not only about false flag terror of course, especially at the beginning. I just want to show that a ridiculous claim may become true. Northwood is another example that everything is possible. Too bad that presidents who block such operations do not live long.
Telling half truths is little different from lying. Geyzer remains his dishonest self.
zalz, you do not provide facts, just unfounded personal assaults. I do not think that I have to answer you.
Bologna massacre wasn't a NATO false flag operation. In the wost case it was actually an embarrassing example of failure and incompetence that proves conspiracies like your can't even be true ever.
We now know how delusionally afraid the western leadership was of the Soviet Union. You can say they wanted to proport this fear for their own gains. But that gives leadership too much credit. It actually turns out they are just stupid. Bush invaded Iraq. People say it was for oil. It turns out their logic was more like this: "Bad arabs attacked us on 9/11. Saddam Hussain is the baddest arab of them al. So let's take out Saddam Hussain first." In the mean time they tried to construct the idea that Iraq could strike destructively anywhere in the world, including the US, with ballistic missiles that may even carry nuclear warheads. An absurd idea. But I really believe some in the Bush administration were able to delude themselves into thinking that indeed Iraq was about to get nuclear weapons. And of course they knew Iraq had WMDs because they sold them themselves to Hussain.
Same way here. Gladio was to set up paramilitary organizations with training and weapons to carry out guerrilla operations when the soviets would invade and occupy. That makes a lot of sense and was indeed a sensible thing to do given they believed a Soviet invasion may be imminent. The problem is that somehow they got all kinds of shady people who were selected or even infiltrated these militia. For some reason they deliberately picked neo nazis and fascists. Maybe because they hated communists most and were most reliable and maybe because they were willing to use violence.
It turned out that fascists/neo nazis and organized crime used the training and weapons they got for their own missions. The Bologna massacra may have been carried out with unintentional NATO operation Gladio support. But that isn't even proven. In fact, there is no evidence at all to support this. It is just asserted by some people. It's pure speculation. That doesn't meet the standards I have for a truth claim. But then you don't care what is true and what is not. Or you are incapable of figuring out when something is probably true and when it is not.
If NATO wanted a false flag they would set up fake communist terrorists or even fund communist terrorists. They didn't.
Then Italy is a deeply corrupt country. We have the P2 lodge, we have the mafia, we have the Vatican.
So yes, Geyzer remains the same liar. Did Gaddafi's son tell you all this nonsense himself?
The fact that the earth is round was a conspiracy theory in the past? WTF dude. You need mental help if you aren't a Gaddafi mercenary. Maybe crazier than a creationist. And religious delusionals, to which I include UFO/alien people as it is a modern religion, have religion as an excuse as it is historical a natural thing for humans to be delusional through religion.
Suisen, watch the documentary, read some documents. Italians do not see it as "probability". There was investigation, testimonies. I am not interested in the discussion with you. You say strange thing like if Italy has mafia that it's investigation cannot be trusted. I am here not to propagate "truth", I am not good in it. I like to learn,make research and always suggest to do the same. If you are uncomfortable with the idea that CIA may be behind the massacres, it is fully understandable. The more I know the more unhappy and cynic I become . I am part of West, I personally benefit a lot from the way the thing are in the world now. I earn a lot while do not have to work hard. But the money does not make me happy. I like to have discussion with people that I can learn something from and you are certainly is not the case. I already spend to much time on the internet forums but still have plenty of real life and work to do.
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I never liked the idea that the West involved in the Libyan conflict because of oil (same with Iraq)
"Why Gadhafi must die!" - reason from a passionate african american, who want better future for Africa and black people(you can understand it from his other videos).
Something similar from Dan Glazebrook, a political analyst on the Middle East “Gaddafi was the main driving force behind founding the African Union in 2002,” he told RT. “His country was the main financial contributor to the three major financial institutions of the African Union: the African Central Bank, the Investment Bank and the African Monetary Fund. Between them, they would have posed a huge challenge to the IMF hegemony in Africa.”
This opinion share many different people from different parts of the world, do not attack these two or me or the rest, we are not paid by Gaddafi . It is just hard not to share it if you understand how the world economy works.
On October 04 2011 02:40 GeyzeR wrote: Suisen, watch the documentary, read some documents. Italians do not see it as "probability". There was investigation, testimonies. I am not interested in the discussion with you. You say strange thing like if Italy has mafia that it's investigation cannot be trusted. I am here not to propagate "truth", I am not good in it. I like to learn,make research and always suggest to do the same. If you are uncomfortable with the idea that CIA may be behind the massacres, it is fully understandable. The more I know the more unhappy and cynic I become . I am part of West, I personally benefit a lot from the way the thing are in the world now. I earn a lot while do not have to work hard. But the money does not make me happy. I like to have discussion with people that I can learn something from and you are certainly is not the case. I already spend to much time on the internet forums but still have plenty of real life and work to do.
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I never liked the idea that the West involved in the Libyan conflict because of oil (same with Iraq)
"Why Gadhafi must die!" - reason from a passionate african american, who want better future for Africa and black people(you can understand it from his other videos).
Something similar from Dan Glazebrook, a political analyst on the Middle East “Gaddafi was the main driving force behind founding the African Union in 2002,” he told RT. “His country was the main financial contributor to the three major financial institutions of the African Union: the African Central Bank, the Investment Bank and the African Monetary Fund. Between them, they would have posed a huge challenge to the IMF hegemony in Africa.”
This opinion share many different people from different parts of the world, do not attack these two or me or the rest, we are not paid by Gaddafi . It is just hard not to share it if you understand how the world economy works.
You just dodge everything he says when disproving you and then suddenly you don't want to argue about it. hmmm
On October 04 2011 03:54 RvB wrote: You just dodge everything he says when disproving you and then suddenly you don't want to argue about it. hmmm
Because it eventually ends up with warning or temp ban. This is a tread about Libya. Left movement was very strong in Italia after WW2, so the public opinion had to be tuned. That why "red" terror. In case if someone is interested in "stay behind" and Gladio - internet and BBC on your disposal.
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Again about Libya and Africa in general. Africa is rich of resources. Have you ever thought why are they always poor in general? Are they stupid, or corrupt, or lazy or what is the reason? The West takes African resources, what does it give in return?
The only threat to USA hegemony is China. And US is getting weaker and Chine is getting stronger with time. “Over the past decade, China’s military has benefited from robust investment in modern hardware and technology. Many modern systems have reached maturity and others will become operational in the next few years,” the Pentagon said in the report. It added that “there remains uncertainty about how China will use its growing capabilities... China’s rise as a major international actor is likely to stand out as a defining feature of the strategic landscape of the early 21st century." "If you want peace prepare for war". China has the most dynamic and powerful economy. US has dollar and the most powerful army in the world. Washington is dependent on China to buy the lion's share of the US Government debt in the form of Treasury paper. But as China getting stronger, it may reach finally the point when it rejects to save USD and the US economy.
China investing a lot in Africa in the recent years. It was #1 investor in Libya. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2010/02/17/china-and-africa-friends-with-benefits/ It also invests to the country which are of low western interest, like Chad or Burkina Faso. They build major roads in Burkina Faso, an infrastructure. They take payment with cacao and other resources for this. While africans are not very fond of the western influence and still often think of them as colonisators, they like chinese and thinks that they help them a lot.
China is very thirsty for resources with its economy. US and EU must limit China's resources supply if they want to stay dominant. My friend now lives in China and he is impressed. It is growing tremendously.
As you can see in this and my previous post, that there is a number of economical(so is political) reasons to remove Gaddafi from power. Independent african banks with its own currency, growing influence and resources income for China - all together is a disaster for West and especially USA.
It is pure luck that part of Libya started its revolt AND Gaddafi "killed peaceful protesters" so NATO could intervene and eventually remove him from power. But think a bit. Preventing such huge geopolitical changes with grave consequences cannot depend on lucky circumstances. It simply cannot. "We need to remove Gaddafi, but what can we do, if only a sporadic popular unrest will be violently suppressed, then we could do it". Do you really think it works this way?
It's not Gaddafi "killed peaceful protestors" like that's some big lie and his regime would never hurt a fly. It's confirmed. It's the truth. His regime has killed many innocent people not just in February but throughout his 42 year reign. Are you saying the entire revolt was somehow incited by the US and/or the West?
The other part of your argument seems to revolve around the idea that Libyan (and African) resources will be exploited either way, so maybe it would be better if China exploited them than the West? I don't follow.
Tangentially, China is the biggest foreign holder of US debt, but the majority is actually still held by American investors.
Few words about the current situation. There is almost no resistance from Libyan army. Khamis brigade has just few hundreds left, Khamis is not in Libya, but in a hospotal outside, he is wounded twice. Jamahiriya is no more present.. The rebels cannot take Ben Walid and Sirte without western ground troops so I think they have to make a deal finally. Tripoli is under full rebels control. The rebels search homes, looking for the weapons that Gaddafi distributed before. If they find it and it has no bullets left - they can execute the man. Rebels flags are everywhere. If a car does not have the flag, it can be topped and the people inside beated. Tripolitanians are simply afraid for they life. They are not warriors, they live they comfortable life and it is better to lose that comfort then getting killed. West provided money and distributes them 500 dinars p.p. You have to sign the paper that you support the revolution to get the money. Infowar is pretty over. I still find some news on pro-Gaddafi sites claiming that Jamahiriya is still fighting. They cannot accept the reality they do not like. Libya is becoming a typical African country, where elite share the resources with west and gains the privilege to be rich. Do not expect much left for people. Libyans have to learn how to work again, there will be no more 1,5 millions of poor Africans who did the dirty job for them. There is fighting among the rebels sides - who will become that elite, or compradors . They had just one thing in common - to remove Gaddafi from their way and now this common thing has gone. There is prowestern" ex-Gaddafi politicans, there is Misurata group, Benghazi Islamist, Derna fundamentals, many tribes, tuaregs etc. So Libya is again divided like it was before Gaddafi. At this point NATO is not that interested to continue the operation as the goal is reached and for them is not that important who will become the new Libyan power until they obey and they will be of course. I've read somewhere that it will take 10 years to get to the point where Libya was before 2011. Gaddafi would die of age by that tie anyway and Saif, his most likely successor, was quite western friendly. Libya already was western friendly, developing and changing. It would be better to let them evolve, instead of revolve, in case if you are care about simple libyan people.
On October 03 2011 04:02 Kukaracha wrote: I think it should either be a simple news feed with no debate whatsoever or else it shouldn't be changed. Some posters have already been tempbanned for the usual conspiracy trolling (read: 9/11) but you can't prevent people from voicing their opinion. There is sometimes a very thin line between conspiracy theories and the actual truth.
When? I honestly cannot think of a conspiracy theory that is even remotely close to truth.
9/11 is a conspiracy theory, but why do people somehow been taught that conspiracy theory is crazy? If you look up the definition and meaning of conspiracy theory its actually very sensible thing and in 99% of the cases is based on actual facts. I won't go into who exactly did it, because people get scared, but I'd say that small office fires can't destroy a 54 stories tall steel structure.
You only have to look at the videos of building 7 falling down and you see the vertical explosions on the right side of the building and less than a second later the building collapses in less than 5 seconds on itself.
But I'd rather keep the discussion on topic and just say that if you think NATO is there for humanitarian reasons you need your head examined. NATO bombs have destroyed many civilian buildings, including hospitals, just google it and you will find all the articles with images and all.
So the fact that people defend it for such reasons is wrong as its not a humanitarian action as NATO and the Al-Qaeda rebels have killed more people in just 6 months than Gaddafi has killed in all his years in power. If you think you are benefiting from this you are sorely mistaken again. The oil will go the the big oil corporations, the gold is going to go to the likes of JP Morgan and/or Paribas.
You the average citizen of the USA, Britain and France fund the military actions that then benefit the big banks and oil corporations and when there is a huge world economic crisis and you are out of money and out of job you wonder why that is. Well its because your money have been used to occupy countries all over the world, killing thousands and thousands of civilians in the process and then giving all the spoils of war to big monopoly oil corporations who then increase the price of oil, because there is less competition and free flowing of oil.
The USA, France, Britain and whoever would benefit from just buying the oil at normal oil prices and being friends with middle eastern and African countries. The oil would be much cheaper then, but that won't work because then you the average citizen get the benefits and not the big oil corporations and the big military complex doesn't get the trillions for war machines.
So my advice to all of you is look at it from a logical perspective and ask yourself who benefits from all of this? Once you realize its not the Libyan people and its not you benefiting, you then realize hey I've been lied and screwed over and I've payed for all of these wars and its just to benefit these huge military and oil companies.
On October 04 2011 02:06 Suisen wrote: Bologna massacre wasn't a NATO false flag operation. In the wost case it was actually an embarrassing example of failure and incompetence that proves conspiracies like your can't even be true ever.
We now know how delusionally afraid the western leadership was of the Soviet Union. You can say they wanted to proport this fear for their own gains. But that gives leadership too much credit. It actually turns out they are just stupid. Bush invaded Iraq. People say it was for oil. It turns out their logic was more like this: "Bad arabs attacked us on 9/11. Saddam Hussain is the baddest arab of them al. So let's take out Saddam Hussain first." In the mean time they tried to construct the idea that Iraq could strike destructively anywhere in the world, including the US, with ballistic missiles that may even carry nuclear warheads. An absurd idea. But I really believe some in the Bush administration were able to delude themselves into thinking that indeed Iraq was about to get nuclear weapons. And of course they knew Iraq had WMDs because they sold them themselves to Hussain.
Same way here. Gladio was to set up paramilitary organizations with training and weapons to carry out guerrilla operations when the soviets would invade and occupy. That makes a lot of sense and was indeed a sensible thing to do given they believed a Soviet invasion may be imminent. The problem is that somehow they got all kinds of shady people who were selected or even infiltrated these militia. For some reason they deliberately picked neo nazis and fascists. Maybe because they hated communists most and were most reliable and maybe because they were willing to use violence.
It turned out that fascists/neo nazis and organized crime used the training and weapons they got for their own missions. The Bologna massacra may have been carried out with unintentional NATO operation Gladio support. But that isn't even proven. In fact, there is no evidence at all to support this. It is just asserted by some people. It's pure speculation. That doesn't meet the standards I have for a truth claim. But then you don't care what is true and what is not. Or you are incapable of figuring out when something is probably true and when it is not.
If NATO wanted a false flag they would set up fake communist terrorists or even fund communist terrorists. They didn't.
Then Italy is a deeply corrupt country. We have the P2 lodge, we have the mafia, we have the Vatican.
So yes, Geyzer remains the same liar. Did Gaddafi's son tell you all this nonsense himself?
The fact that the earth is round was a conspiracy theory in the past? WTF dude. You need mental help if you aren't a Gaddafi mercenary. Maybe crazier than a creationist. And religious delusionals, to which I include UFO/alien people as it is a modern religion, have religion as an excuse as it is historical a natural thing for humans to be delusional through religion.
If American government was remotely as stupid as you believe, our country (and most likely the USSR as well) would be an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland. I don't think they're that stupid, not by a long shot. Btw, in the light of condemning people for conspiracy theories, saying the US government/corporations/banks/etc. do the things they do out of stupidity rather than deliberate action and thought-out planning is a conspiracy theory in itself. I'm sure some of your heavily nationalistic countrymen quite faithful to how things are would call you conspiratorial for saying there is terrible, terrible corruption in Italia. That said, I'm sure the US government and its adjoining agencies are 1000x more knowledgeable and thoughtful about what they do than say the Italian government, and yet I don't see Italy invading Switzerland because.... Swiss bankers are apparently stealing Italian government funds... and have control of WMDs they apparently bought from France... and are apparently funding Al Qaeda.... apparently... (do note my sarcasm)
Uh no, invading a country isn't about stupidity. It's the result of very well detailed plans and 100% sureness of things going on. It's not a knee-jerk reaction. Not to mention that even if the reasons for invading Iraq were remotely true, it would still have been a terribly stupid excuse. The US govt. and US intelligence agencies aren't a bunch of 5 year-olds. Implying they didn't know that the WMDs and the AQ ties were hoaxes is saying that my dog has more intelligence, data-gathering ability, knowledge, and common sense than the CIA and US government combined. I'm sorry, but that isn't in the slightest conceivable. The US would have to go invade China, for example, if it wants to be in the least consistent. But seriously, you're terribly insulting the US and the American people with your post. No, they knew what they were doing. Yes, they are very competent. Yes, the CIA knows more than anyone in their line of work and can be sure of its validity, unless the GRU is just as hardcore and can contest 1st place. They weren't herping and derping and were like "lol i made an uh-oh. oh well". They would have left right away even if that were the case seeing as their "stated goals" were completely about WMDs and Al Qaeda upon finding out they were completely wrong. What you're talking about though is what propaganda is told to the people. Yes, you need to get the people to support a war and you do that through propaganda, no matter how ludicrous it is (like what you're saying about Iraq). I completely doubt that in their own meetings, intelligence, political, and military commanders gave one thought to this "striking anywhere in the world" because they knew Iraq had no capability of this and they also knew Iraq had no care for doing so either, especially when surviving the sanctions was a lot more important.
Also, following 1991, UNSCOM started to clean up all the chemical weapons. For whatever reason (most likely to cripple the country "legally"), the sanctions on literally everything still remained for 12 years. Losing 75% of GDP and everything falling apart and millions dying from starvation/preventable disease is pretty hardcore when you compare today's sanctions on countries like Iran that do pretty much nothing. I guess the collapse of the Soviet Union allows you to have that much weight over the UN, but hell, if that isn't considered genocide and destruction, Holodomor must have been as great a time as if a Disneyland were to open in Kiev. Heck, what am I saying, even the near extermination of the natives of our current territory isn't considered a big deal.
“Over the past decade, China’s military has benefited from robust investment in modern hardware and technology. Many modern systems have reached maturity and others will become operational in the next few years,” the Pentagon said in the report. It added that “there remains uncertainty about how China will use its growing capabilities... China’s rise as a major international actor is likely to stand out as a defining feature of the strategic landscape of the early 21st century."
If that's true about Chinese military, I can only imagine how godly the Russian military is, considering the Chinese military is a terribly washed-down version of Russian weapons and systems. Also, the Chinese are awfully fond of reverse engineering export variants of old Russian weapons, even trying to smuggle Russian AF Su-27 parts back in 2009 (as opposed to the crap versions the Russians export, so this would have been a huge gain for Chinese aeronautics). Unfortunately, the Soviets/Russians have only ever exported "monkey models" (export variants that are ridiculously inferior to their counterparts used in the Soviet/Russian military) to other countries, so the last time actual Soviet/Russian weapons saw combat against another military was in WW2. I think the Pentagon is more fearful of China because China is showing an aggressive stance, whereas Russia is rather laid back.
EPT
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. It is just hard not to share it if you understand how the world economy works.
