EPTHeadphone enthusiast thread! - Page 171
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [more details] + Sound cards, DACs (referring to the standalone audio products, not just the D/A converter chip that's also called the DAC), some pro audio sound interfaces, and onboard sound chips all present audio output interfaces for the operating system to send sounds through. They have the same functionality in terms of outputting sound. You send sound through one of them. Many sound cards also have multichannel support (e.g. analog line outputs to hook up a 7.1 system), inputs (mics, other inputs), additional processing capability in hardware or software—hardware EAX support, various Dolby processing, some proprietary things, or whatever. There's no inherent difference between any of those options in terms of audio fidelity, getting a better stereo image, or whatever. In practice, different products have different electronics, so the performance is a bit different. + Show Spoiler [Why sound cards?] + Some people only recommend traditional sound cards for gaming audio for headphones, because some support Dolby Headphone or Creative's CMSS-3D (which mixes together left and right channels somewhat in a certain way, adds a certain reverb, etc., or something like that, which can potentially make stereo sound more realistic on headphones). The idea is to use that processing, which will make things sound different in the very least. YMMV. If you're not using that, then there's no inherent difference between a sound card and another option. + Show Spoiler [why mixing might help] + The reason is that a lot of sounds and most music is mastered primarily to be played back on speakers. In a proper speaker setup, your left ear hears some sounds from the right speaker, and the right ear hears some sounds from the left speaker—just with a specific time delay and frequency-dependent attenuation factor that depends on the geometry and composition of your head. Literally. On headphones, your left ear pretty much just gets whatever comes out of the left cup, and similar for the right ear, so sounds are unnaturally panned too hard to the left and right sides. Some type of processing can somewhat correct for this difference. Assuming you're not flying a fighter jet, nobody probably measured your head's acoustics, so their algorithm may be using some one-size-fits-all approach that may not be convincing to you. If you want a Xonar sound card for running headphones, you want the Xonar DG / DGX or Essence ST / STX. The --X versions are PCIe, while the others are PCI. + Show Spoiler [more details] + However, the naming doesn't always completely follow that convention: D1 corresponds to DX (it's not called D1X). Ignore the others, since they're not intended for driving headphones. They have more processing features, more outputs, higher line-output fidelity, and some other advantages over DG / DGX (lowest-end product in the lineup), but the key feature of interest is the integrated headphone amp on the DG / DGX. Depending on which headphones you use, they might be alright on one of the others, but don't bother. If you use a soundcard plus a dedicated headphone amplifier, than any sound card is fair game. I don't think you want Essence ST / STX unless your headphones are actually worth that expense. Just looking at E10 and Xonar cards...Better sound for music, driving most headphones: Essence ST / STX > FiiO E10 > DG / DGX > others Better sound for music, driving a few headphones and certain IEMs, arguably: FiiO E10 > Essence ST / STX > DG / DGX > others | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
Anyways, I've been thinking that I'll not likely be paying incredibly close attention to sound quality if I'm gaming, and if I'm not gaming, I don't edit video or anything else that would be incredibly stressful to my graphics card. So maybe EMI wouldn't make too big of a difference, but I'm just not incredibly confident in my predictive capabilities in this regard. And I'm really not too sure how much of a difference the shield will make. Besides that, I'm confident in my search-engine abilities to judge for myself whether to get the STX or the e10. Thanks again! Edit: I'm also thinking of upgrading my cans too. Soo if I have say $375, would I be better off with $200 headphones and a Xonar STX or $300 headphones and an e10? Edit 2: I figure if I ask a question that is relative to my current setup, I should mention what my current setup is -.- Anyways, I am running AT-ADH700s off of my onboard audio (when I want quality LOL), and some old sound card when I want any volume. | ||
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Esoterikk
Canada1256 Posts
Thoughts on these for a gaming/music pair of IEM's? I am looking to replace my siberia v2's with a real set of headphones but only have roughly 100$ budget (the top end of my budget ideally around 80$). Or does anyone know some IEM that would be better suited for gaming and music, preferably one with a working microphone on the computer because I think the meelectronic ones won't work on a computer since they are a single jack. | ||
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Alabasern
United States4005 Posts
On June 02 2012 11:00 Esoterikk wrote: http://www.meelec.com/MEElectronics_SP51P_Tunable_In_Ear_Headphone_w_mic_p/ep-sp51p-bk-mee.htm Thoughts on these for a gaming/music pair of IEM's? I am looking to replace my siberia v2's with a real set of headphones but only have roughly 100$ budget (the top end of my budget ideally around 80$). Or does anyone know some IEM that would be better suited for gaming and music, preferably one with a working microphone on the computer because I think the meelectronic ones won't work on a computer since they are a single jack. http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Ultimate-Ears-Noise-Isolating-Earphones/dp/B003YKG2XC Maybe...I haven't done any research on it's sound, isolation, or comfort. | ||
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Esoterikk
Canada1256 Posts
On June 02 2012 11:10 Alabasern wrote: http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Ultimate-Ears-Noise-Isolating-Earphones/dp/B003YKG2XC Maybe...I haven't done any research on it's sound, isolation, or comfort. I have heard iffy reviews on logitech sound equipment to be honest, I am willing to sacrifice a mic for sound quality if worse comes to worse. http://www.amazon.com/MEElectronics-M6-BK-Sound-Isolating-In-Ear-Headphones/dp/B0038W0K2K/ref=pd_cp_e_0 Found these as well, they are inexpensive but might be worth picking up until I have a larger budget. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21243 Posts
I have a pair of ATH A700s, and any potential future headphones would be at about that price/quality range. would a Xonar DG give any significant boost to my audio quality, or is it completely unnecessary? Don't really have a huge budget for a sound card so if I need to spend more than what a DG costs I'll probably just end up passing on the sound card. Someone in the computer thread also mentioned a USB DAC as an option, thoughts on that? What would that cost? Cheers. | ||
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Alabasern
United States4005 Posts
On June 03 2012 14:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Hey, was looking into building a computer and was considering a Xonar DG and was directed here. I have a pair of ATH A700s, and any potential future headphones would be at about that price/quality range. would a Xonar DG give any significant boost to my audio quality, or is it completely unnecessary? Don't really have a huge budget for a sound card so if I need to spend more than what a DG costs I'll probably just end up passing on the sound card. Someone in the computer thread also mentioned a USB DAC as an option, thoughts on that? What would that cost? Cheers. USB DAC FiiO E10 = $70 http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B005VO7LG6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1337997558&sr=1-1 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mHQf2.jpg) | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On June 03 2012 14:32 Alabasern wrote: USB DAC FiiO E10 = $70 http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B005VO7LG6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1337997558&sr=1-1 + Show Spoiler + Speaking of which, I went the $300 headphones + e10 route. I'm so psyched, getting the e10 Tuesday, and then I have one month to finalize my plans for the actual cans. Does anyone have any suggestions for this range? I try to be gentle, but I'm a bit ... rough ... with my cans, so I don't think the HD 598 is for me (I've heard that almost universally the headband cracks). I'd have to wait two months for the HD 650, so I don't really want to go that route. I really like what I hear about the AKG 702/701, but now I'm really confused about the Q series being cheaper by about $40 than the K series. So my main questions at this point are whether the k series is worth the extra money for the removable cable. Also, are there any really impressive headphones (preferably with more bass than my AD-700s  ) that I've missed? Finally, are there any good resources for understanding how impedance of the output, input, and other numbers relate to sound? I have a physics book that covers virtually everything except for anything that has to do with audio, so I can get the underlying electrical concepts (AC current, anything else?), but I'm still not quite up to speed on everything else Also, I'm majoring in Physics so I really don't mind equations and calculus | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On June 03 2012 14:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Hey, was looking into building a computer and was considering a Xonar DG and was directed here. I have a pair of ATH A700s, and any potential future headphones would be at about that price/quality range. would a Xonar DG give any significant boost to my audio quality, or is it completely unnecessary? Don't really have a huge budget for a sound card so if I need to spend more than what a DG costs I'll probably just end up passing on the sound card. Someone in the computer thread also mentioned a USB DAC as an option, thoughts on that? What would that cost? Cheers. The E10 mentioned above isn't the cheapest USB option by any stretch, or the cheapest USB option of any quality, but it's certainly the best you can do for $70, by a decent margin. But I'm not sure why that was mentioned, since you're looking around the $25 price range. DG is probably worthwhile. It really depends on the headphones, and the quality of the onboard audio in your system (which depends on a lot more than just which audio chip is used). If the onboard actually sucks in your situation, then it's worth it. Otherwise, maybe not. There's little real-world testing of most sound cards and onboard audio, especially with regards to driving headphones, but it should be that the DG is okay. Unlike many sound cards, it spent a little bit of money for some kind of buffer for the headphone output, which is a good thing. Cheap and somewhat decent USB options around the DG cost are Asus Xonar U3 and Creative X-Fi Go. They have different advantages and disadvantages, but for about 64 ohms impedance headphones, it should be pretty close. On June 03 2012 15:31 Mordanis wrote: Speaking of which, I went the $300 headphones + e10 route. I'm so psyched, getting the e10 Tuesday, and then I have one month to finalize my plans for the actual cans. Does anyone have any suggestions for this range? I try to be gentle, but I'm a bit ... rough ... with my cans, so I don't think the HD 598 is for me (I've heard that almost universally the headband cracks). I'd have to wait two months for the HD 650, so I don't really want to go that route. I really like what I hear about the AKG 702/701, but now I'm really confused about the Q series being cheaper by about $40 than the K series. So my main questions at this point are whether the k series is worth the extra money for the removable cable. Also, are there any really impressive headphones (preferably with more bass than my AD-700s ) that I've missed? Finally, are there any good resources for understanding how impedance of the output, input, and other numbers relate to sound? I have a physics book that covers virtually everything except for anything that has to do with audio, so I can get the underlying electrical concepts (AC current, anything else?), but I'm still not quite up to speed on everything else Also, I'm majoring in Physics so I really don't mind equations and calculus K701 has no detachable cable. K702 and Q701 both do. I don't know if there are legitimate differences between the Q701 and very similar K701/K702 in terms of sound quality (see here for some discussion), but people seem to think they're the same or prefer the Q701. So the Q701 is more desirable anyway. Pricing on headphones always shifts, and I think the K models could be somewhat being phased out; don't think much into the price difference. The build quality on those isn't amazing, but it's not poor. If you're rough, consider Beyerdynamic DT880 (250 ohms is okay on E10 unless you listen somewhat loudly, like 107 dB SPL peaks. Actually, if you listen to a lot of well-recorded classical or jazz music, then that's probably too low; otherwise, probably okay. 32 ohms version is definitely okay in terms of volume, but supposedly is not as good.). There's not much of a relationship between headphone impedance and sound (no generalization like higher impedance headphones sound better), except for a few issues: + Show Spoiler +
Amplifiers can be voltage, current, or power limited before they clip, driving certain headphones to louder volumes. So the headphone and amp output impedance play a role there. However, what's even more important is how loud you listen and the sensitivity—loudness per electric input (dB sound pressure level per milliwatt or sometimes volt input). With a low-sensitivity headphone, you need more power, voltage, and current to play at a given volume. e.g. something like Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohms has a medium sensitivity, but because of the high impedance, it needs some 5V or so to play at 110 dB SPL, which is more than most sound cards and all USB-powered DACs can output. You may want to start reading these articles, which should be pretty accessible: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-impedance-explained.html http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/gain-and-headphone-ampsdacs.html What do you mean by "other numbers"? Maybe this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_system_measurements | ||
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DarthSidious
United States18 Posts
Any opinions on them? Are expensive headphones a waste if I just plan on using them with a smartphone? (like galaxy nexus) | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
Smartphone audio quality varies widely (and there's little real information on audio quality and characteristics for particular models), so maybe it's a good idea to avoid overgeneralizing. But good headphones sound mostly good out of most anything, usually. Just checking, but you realize that all headphones you mentioned are non-isolating, so they leak almost all sound in and out? It's a waste if there's a lot of ambient noise and you can't really hear much of anything anyway. Otherwise, it costs a certain amount of money and some people would find it worthwhile? DT 990 600 ohms is unusually quiet compared to most headphones out of a given source, so you may be really disappointed running that out of a phone. That's why they make 32 ohms versions of the 770/880/990 models. Even the Senn 650 is too quiet out of a phone, for some music or some tastes. | ||
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DarthSidious
United States18 Posts
On June 04 2012 09:09 Myrmidon wrote: Beyerdynamic DT 770, 880, and 990 are old staples that are well respected (particularly 880, and less so for 770 maybe), having a little different characteristics and advantages. Smartphone audio quality varies widely (and there's little real information on audio quality and characteristics for particular models), so maybe it's a good idea to avoid overgeneralizing. But good headphones sound mostly good out of most anything, usually. Just checking, but you realize that all headphones you mentioned are non-isolating, so they leak almost all sound in and out? It's a waste if there's a lot of ambient noise and you can't really hear much of anything anyway. Otherwise, it costs a certain amount of money and some people would find it worthwhile? DT 990 600 ohms is unusually quiet compared to most headphones out of a given source, so you may be really disappointed running that out of a phone. That's why they make 32 ohms versions of the 770/880/990 models. Even the Senn 650 is too quiet out of a phone, for some music or some tastes. Thanks! I was going to buy the wrong 990 ohms model. For isolating/noise-canceling, what's the best? I found the Sennheiser PXC 450 and the Bose® QuietComfort® 3. | ||
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
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maga33
United States247 Posts
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On June 04 2012 11:15 maga33 wrote: I asked a few months ago about upgrading from an ad700. I ended up going with the senn HD650s. I'm wondering whats a good dac/sound card for headphones. My budget is $150 Audinst HUD-MX1. | ||
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Himmel
United States68 Posts
On June 04 2012 11:15 maga33 wrote: I asked a few months ago about upgrading from an ad700. I ended up going with the senn HD650s. I'm wondering whats a good dac/sound card for headphones. My budget is $150 Spend a little more and go with a Yulong U100 | ||
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OneBaseKing
Afghanistan412 Posts
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ThePurist
Canada686 Posts
Still can't see how it appeals so greatly to a vast majority of people. The pros were very readily available online so I won't even bother. I'll just mention the "unspoken" cons. - Zalman mic is like $5~9 or whatever I guess at its pricepoint it isn't that bad. However it picks up background noise very well and does not have any noise cancelling features. I guess if you game in a quiet environment it is not that bad, but I tested a short Skype call vs. a $15 logitech headset and the headset was much clearer. Furthermore, the clip on mic has little clips on the main cable that is supposed to clip onto your headset but it is terribly made and may not work with the headphones you own. - AD700 I mean it's a pretty decent headphone but it's over-hyped like no tomorrow. I love Audio Technica (am a huge fanboy) and own a few of the W series but there are too many cons with the "gaming combo". Once again, the greatest con is the environmental factors (open-design), as well as others. - The sound quality on the AD700 is not bad for the price, but I would argue there are many better alternatives if one were to go for a Headphone+mic combo. 1) ATH-M50 = $100, looks better (subjective), comes in white/silver/black, there are certain deals to make it extremely cheap online, portable, can use on the go as well, closed headphone (although it doesn't isolate too well) - Primary usage: Studio Monitoring/Mixing 2) Shure SRH440 = $80, looks better (subjective) great sound for given price point, detachable cable, collapsible can use on the go if you want. Primary usage: Studio Monitoring/Mixing 3) Any of those Beyerdynamic headset models. Pricey but I guess if you want one of the best you might want one. Primary usage: Commentating/Broadacasting 4) Or just a normal headset. $10~100. Usually has good features for "gaming". Primary usage: Gaming 5) Any "audiophile" headphone. Primary usage: To enjoy music All in all, I'm just saying there are tons of choices. Jumping on the bandwagon and considering the AD700+Zalman the greatest is just stupid. If you are happy with it that's great, but then I would say ignorance is bliss. | ||
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