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United States24740 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:33 mikado wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. See this is what I meant by 'interpretations of the book' in the above post. This is specifically what's wrong with religion in general and is the reason why terrorism is possible. You have to be able to read and see that these rules are there for specific reasons, not because Allah wants a specific thing from you (except for maybe spiritual solitude and goodness towards others). To point out specifically; You shall not eat pork because it takes a lot of water to raise pigs, they are dirty animals and people have very low hygiene standards at the time. You don't drink because it's likely you'll become destructive, offensive or just plain addicted; causing you to lead a dysfunctional and inefficient life. You pray 5 times a day, so you thank Allah for what he's given you in your life (that's even what's said in the prayers read 5 times a day), that you'll be good to others and you'll share your food, etc. At each prayer, you basically remind yourself of your core values. It's also an opportunity to get together with friends, bring people together and strengthen community ties. It's when people say things like ' We do it because Allah commanded us so' that you enter the dangerous territory. This takes reason out the window, which Allah certainly wanted you to have. In fact you say 'we don't need a reason, Allah doesn't has to provide us with one, because he's Allah'. That, I'd say, is the mark of an uneducated point of view/mind. If anything, Qur'an diligently states the importance of having an open and inquiring mind, asking the questions 'how' and 'why' and having learning as the primary goal of life.
This is very good. I think every religion should be looked at from this perspective.
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On September 10 2010 23:42 mamelouk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 23:33 mikado wrote:On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. See this is what I meant by 'interpretations of the book' in the above post. This is specifically what's wrong with religion in general and is the reason why terrorism is possible. You have to be able to read and see that these rules are there for specific reasons, not because Allah wants a specific thing from you (except for maybe spiritual solitude and goodness towards others). To point out specifically; You shall not eat pork because it takes a lot of water to raise pigs, they are dirty animals and people have very low hygiene standards at the time. You don't drink because it's likely you'll become destructive, offensive or just plain addicted; causing you to lead a dysfunctional and inefficient life. You pray 5 times a day, so you thank Allah for what he's given you in your life (that's even what's said in the prayers read 5 times a day), that you'll be good to others and you'll share your food, etc. At each prayer, you basically remind yourself of your core values. It's also an opportunity to get together with friends, bring people together and strengthen community ties. It's when people say things like ' We do it because Allah commanded us so' that you enter the dangerous territory. This takes reason out the window, which Allah certainly wanted you to have. In fact you say 'we don't need a reason, Allah doesn't has to provide us with one, because he's Allah'. That, I'd say, is the mark of an educated point of view/mind. If anything, Qur'an diligently states the importance of having an open and inquiring mind, asking the questions 'how' and 'why' and having learning as the primary goal of life. Looks to me you're the one interpreting things. No where in the quran or islam, these reasons are invoked. Sure you should not blindly follow principles, and there is practical reason to each rules. But the real reason you're following them is because to believe in god and trust him You don't follow your country laws because you understand each and every one of them, but because you don't want to be an outlaw, and believe in democracy and stuff
The book is open to nothing if not interpretation. It's very transparent and that's what the extremists take advantage of. The correct interpretation is obviously needed, but with so many uneducated people around, you get these 'you do it, because he said it so'.
You think those laws you speak of are in effect because senators just made them so? They're made for specific purposes. You obey the law, not believe in it. But every law is made for a reason by men (just like these books are written by men to spread peace and order), and are open for discussion and debate. If you don't understand your country's laws, that speaks of your ignorance but not of the lack of need to understand why they exist.
I guess a helpful reminder would be to point out that these books are fiction (speaking of man made law) and that there is no invisible man commanding you to say a prayer 33 times, because it's a special number and only he knows its meaning. But I suppose this is the wrong thread for an atheist to post something like this.
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so the point is to define good, bad (evil) and neutral. I don't see "not eating pork" as evil, but rather cultural (neutral)
I jumped on the train while running. what was the debate root again ?
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You obey the law, not believe in it
you believe in democracy, not arnachy, so you obey the law
you believe in god, so you obey the commandements
I don't see the subtility here
The book is open to nothing if not interpretation.
have you read even parts of the quran?
sure there's things you can interpret in every situation, religion or not. but this statement is kinda harsh
btw I'm agnostic
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God does not need to give you any reason, religion is not for God, its for mankind. The concept of god doesnt need us, otherwise it wouldnt be God. You can judge, think, talk but the reason for your worship is not because they are good its because God wants it so. Todays perspective of " Everthing must be centered by Man, and everything must be understood or must be found reasonable by our limited brains" is something the concept doesnt accept. You either belaive God himself is not obliged to anything but his words since he is the God, or you dont accep the concept of God because otherwise God wouldnt be godly. After french revolution, the concept of state changed, isntead of states taking power from God, the state placed it self as God over the society. We are the children of this mentality and considering state laws to something completaly different. Anyways I gave my point and it is completaly clear.
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We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran)
We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran.
The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince.
Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it.
See this is what I meant by 'interpretations of the book' in the above post. This is specifically what's wrong with religion in general and is the reason why terrorism is possible. You have to be able to read and see that these rules are there for specific reasons, not because Allah wants a specific thing from you (except for maybe spiritual solitude and goodness towards others). To point out specifically;
You shall not eat pork because it takes a lot of water to raise pigs, they are dirty animals and people have very low hygiene standards at the time.
You don't drink because it's likely you'll become destructive, offensive or just plain addicted; causing you to lead a dysfunctional and inefficient life.
You pray 5 times a day, so you thank Allah for what he's given you in your life (that's even what's said in the prayers read 5 times a day), that you'll be good to others and you'll share your food, etc. At each prayer, you basically remind yourself of your core values. It's also an opportunity to get together with friends, bring people together and strengthen community ties.
It's when people say things like ' We do it because Allah commanded us so' that you enter the dangerous territory. This takes reason out the window, which Allah certainly wanted you to have.
[b]
In fact you say 'we don't need a reason, Allah doesn't has to provide us with one, because he's Allah'. That, I'd say, is the mark of an uneducated point of view/mind. If anything, Qur'an diligently states the importance of having an open and inquiring mind, asking the questions 'how' and 'why' and having learning as the primary goal of life.[/b[
you have no idea what I am talking about, I am talking about the basic principle for worshipping and practicing religion. The basic motive for those I mentioned above MUST be to obey the orders of the god. You can have additional reasons etc but without the intention of following the order, you take religion as a simple civil law nothing else. I am talking about God here, without understanding what I am meaing by God, please dont treat the subject as the belaivers considering God as a simple "State Authority"
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United States24740 Posts
On September 11 2010 00:12 Armut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 23:52 micronesia wrote:On September 10 2010 23:33 mikado wrote:On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. See this is what I meant by 'interpretations of the book' in the above post. This is specifically what's wrong with religion in general and is the reason why terrorism is possible. You have to be able to read and see that these rules are there for specific reasons, not because Allah wants a specific thing from you (except for maybe spiritual solitude and goodness towards others). To point out specifically; You shall not eat pork because it takes a lot of water to raise pigs, they are dirty animals and people have very low hygiene standards at the time. You don't drink because it's likely you'll become destructive, offensive or just plain addicted; causing you to lead a dysfunctional and inefficient life. You pray 5 times a day, so you thank Allah for what he's given you in your life (that's even what's said in the prayers read 5 times a day), that you'll be good to others and you'll share your food, etc. At each prayer, you basically remind yourself of your core values. It's also an opportunity to get together with friends, bring people together and strengthen community ties. It's when people say things like ' We do it because Allah commanded us so' that you enter the dangerous territory. This takes reason out the window, which Allah certainly wanted you to have. [b] In fact you say 'we don't need a reason, Allah doesn't has to provide us with one, because he's Allah'. That, I'd say, is the mark of an uneducated point of view/mind. If anything, Qur'an diligently states the importance of having an open and inquiring mind, asking the questions 'how' and 'why' and having learning as the primary goal of life.[/b[ This is very good. I think every religion should be looked at from this perspective. you have no idea what I am talking about, I am talking about the basic principle for worshipping and practicing religion. The basic motive for those I mentioned above MUST be to obey the orders of the god. You can have additional reasons etc but without the intention of following the order, you take religion as a simple civil law nothing else. I am talking about God here, without understanding what I am meaing by God, please dont treat the subject as the belaivers considering God as a simple "State Authority"
Why are you arguing that I have no idea what you are talking about? I took a post someone else made talking about a way to view religion and its practices, and agreed with it pointing out that I think the same can be said for every religion... not just Islam. If you disagree with me that's fine but don't act like I've been arguing with you.
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On September 11 2010 00:07 mamelouk wrote:you believe in democracy, not arnachy, so you obey the law you believe in god, so you obey the commandements I don't see the subtility here have you read even parts of the quran? sure there's things you can interpret in every situation, religion or not. but this statement is kinda harsh btw I'm agnostic
You see the reason behind it, that's why you obey it (same thing as seeing why democracy is good, and supporting it, not believing in it). Belief is not applicable to rational existences. It's the wrong word to choose to make an analogy regarding religion.
If you lived in a world where the majority of the population suffered from schizophrenia and that spinning on your head 3 times before you left your house was made into law, would you still obey it because you favor and support democracy?
Having written that statement, obviously I must've read the Qur'an to make such specific references. And why would it be harsh to say that the book is open to interpretation? You'd think with all the elaborate allegories and poetic symbolism in these books, the authors would want you to have a take home message. That's assuming that their target audience is human beings (having the ability to question and infer meaning) and not parrots (blindly repeating every word said or written).
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On September 11 2010 00:12 Armut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 23:52 micronesia wrote:On September 10 2010 23:33 mikado wrote:On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. See this is what I meant by 'interpretations of the book' in the above post. This is specifically what's wrong with religion in general and is the reason why terrorism is possible. You have to be able to read and see that these rules are there for specific reasons, not because Allah wants a specific thing from you (except for maybe spiritual solitude and goodness towards others). To point out specifically; You shall not eat pork because it takes a lot of water to raise pigs, they are dirty animals and people have very low hygiene standards at the time. You don't drink because it's likely you'll become destructive, offensive or just plain addicted; causing you to lead a dysfunctional and inefficient life. You pray 5 times a day, so you thank Allah for what he's given you in your life (that's even what's said in the prayers read 5 times a day), that you'll be good to others and you'll share your food, etc. At each prayer, you basically remind yourself of your core values. It's also an opportunity to get together with friends, bring people together and strengthen community ties. It's when people say things like ' We do it because Allah commanded us so' that you enter the dangerous territory. This takes reason out the window, which Allah certainly wanted you to have. [b] In fact you say 'we don't need a reason, Allah doesn't has to provide us with one, because he's Allah'. That, I'd say, is the mark of an uneducated point of view/mind. If anything, Qur'an diligently states the importance of having an open and inquiring mind, asking the questions 'how' and 'why' and having learning as the primary goal of life.[/b[ This is very good. I think every religion should be looked at from this perspective. you have no idea what I am talking about, I am talking about the basic principle for worshipping and practicing religion. The basic motive for those I mentioned above MUST be to obey the orders of the god. You can have additional reasons etc but without the intention of following the order, you take religion as a simple civil law nothing else. I am talking about God here, without understanding what I am meaing by God, please dont treat the subject as the belaivers considering God as a simple "State Authority"
But here are we really following the words of God or the words of men? Let nothing be too sacred to be questioned - even God.
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On September 11 2010 00:21 mikado wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:07 mamelouk wrote:You obey the law, not believe in it you believe in democracy, not arnachy, so you obey the law you believe in god, so you obey the commandements I don't see the subtility here The book is open to nothing if not interpretation.
have you read even parts of the quran? sure there's things you can interpret in every situation, religion or not. but this statement is kinda harsh btw I'm agnostic You see the reason behind it, that's why you obey it (same thing as seeing why democracy is good, and supporting it, not believing in it). Belief is not applicable to rational existences. It's the wrong word to choose to make an analogy regarding religion.
if you believe in god, the reason why you obey commandments, is that you want to go to heaven. it may not be rational, but it seems a good reason.
and I think that "belief" is a good word to describe your support in democracy. politic is not an exact science, and different people have different convictions, or "beliefs", about these systems. no one have proven that democracy won't slowly bring humanity to a huge failure.
If you lived in a world where the majority of the population suffered from schizophrenia and that spinning on your head 3 times before you left your house was made into law, would you still obey it because you favor and support democracy?
so you're saying you believe in democracy because it works so far?
Having written that statement, obviously I must've read the Qur'an to make such specific references. And why would it be harsh to say that the book is open to interpretation?
you said it's open to nothing but interpretation. that's quite different
You'd think with all the elaborate allegories and poetic symbolism in these books, the authors would want you to have a take home message. That's assuming that their target audience is human beings (having the ability to question and infer meaning) and not parrots (blindly repeating every word said or written).
thats a very subtile analysis
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On September 11 2010 00:46 mamelouk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:21 mikado wrote:On September 11 2010 00:07 mamelouk wrote:You obey the law, not believe in it you believe in democracy, not arnachy, so you obey the law you believe in god, so you obey the commandements I don't see the subtility here The book is open to nothing if not interpretation.
have you read even parts of the quran? sure there's things you can interpret in every situation, religion or not. but this statement is kinda harsh btw I'm agnostic You see the reason behind it, that's why you obey it (same thing as seeing why democracy is good, and supporting it, not believing in it). Belief is not applicable to rational existences. It's the wrong word to choose to make an analogy regarding religion. if you believe in god, the reason why you obey commandments, is that you want to go to heaven. it may not be rational, but it seems a good reason. and I think that "belief" is a good word to describe your support in democracy. politic is not an exact science, and different people have different convictions, or "beliefs", about these systems. no one have proven that democracy won't slowly bring humanity to a huge failure. Show nested quote +If you lived in a world where the majority of the population suffered from schizophrenia and that spinning on your head 3 times before you left your house was made into law, would you still obey it because you favor and support democracy? so you're saying you believe in democracy because it works so far? Show nested quote +Having written that statement, obviously I must've read the Qur'an to make such specific references. And why would it be harsh to say that the book is open to interpretation? you said it's open to nothing but interpretation. that's quite different Show nested quote + You'd think with all the elaborate allegories and poetic symbolism in these books, the authors would want you to have a take home message. That's assuming that their target audience is human beings (having the ability to question and infer meaning) and not parrots (blindly repeating every word said or written).
thats a very subtile analysis
If you truly are a religious person, the reason you'd believe in god and obey his commands wouldn't be so that you'd get to go to heaven (how can a god desire such a 'quid pro quo' relationship? what happened to do good without expecting anything in return?). It'd be for the love of god that you'd follow him. The most rational explanation I can come up with is that as you learn more and more about the physics and science of everything that surrounds you, you see it's all a wonder and admire the man behind the curtain. Next step up from this would be appreciating the scientific part of it more, understanding the complexity and embracing the causality and become an atheist. Funny that, being a truly religious and spiritual person and an atheist are thinly separated concepts at best.
Secondly, yes I believe in (synonymous with support, that's why I say the word 'believe' is not the same thing in both concepts) democracy because it works so far. You only have to look at the example I supplied to reason why. You support or are in favor of certain mechanisms, be it within the democratic system or not, or you don't. Regardless of what you believe though, there is a system called democracy.
And the analysis I made there should be obvious to everyone, it's not rocket science. You supply an analogy or a symbol to make a point. Unless, of course, if you literally believe that the earth is 6000 years old. In that case you need to hit the science books.
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On September 11 2010 00:19 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:12 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 23:52 micronesia wrote:On September 10 2010 23:33 mikado wrote:On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. See this is what I meant by 'interpretations of the book' in the above post. This is specifically what's wrong with religion in general and is the reason why terrorism is possible. You have to be able to read and see that these rules are there for specific reasons, not because Allah wants a specific thing from you (except for maybe spiritual solitude and goodness towards others). To point out specifically; You shall not eat pork because it takes a lot of water to raise pigs, they are dirty animals and people have very low hygiene standards at the time. You don't drink because it's likely you'll become destructive, offensive or just plain addicted; causing you to lead a dysfunctional and inefficient life. You pray 5 times a day, so you thank Allah for what he's given you in your life (that's even what's said in the prayers read 5 times a day), that you'll be good to others and you'll share your food, etc. At each prayer, you basically remind yourself of your core values. It's also an opportunity to get together with friends, bring people together and strengthen community ties. It's when people say things like ' We do it because Allah commanded us so' that you enter the dangerous territory. This takes reason out the window, which Allah certainly wanted you to have. [b] In fact you say 'we don't need a reason, Allah doesn't has to provide us with one, because he's Allah'. That, I'd say, is the mark of an uneducated point of view/mind. If anything, Qur'an diligently states the importance of having an open and inquiring mind, asking the questions 'how' and 'why' and having learning as the primary goal of life.[/b[ This is very good. I think every religion should be looked at from this perspective. you have no idea what I am talking about, I am talking about the basic principle for worshipping and practicing religion. The basic motive for those I mentioned above MUST be to obey the orders of the god. You can have additional reasons etc but without the intention of following the order, you take religion as a simple civil law nothing else. I am talking about God here, without understanding what I am meaing by God, please dont treat the subject as the belaivers considering God as a simple "State Authority" Why are you arguing that I have no idea what you are talking about? I took a post someone else made talking about a way to view religion and its practices, and agreed with it pointing out that I think the same can be said for every religion... not just Islam. If you disagree with me that's fine but don't act like I've been arguing with you.
I am sorry for mis quoting I guess I forgot to remove your quote from there I will edit it now.
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On September 10 2010 23:42 mamelouk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 23:33 mikado wrote:On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. See this is what I meant by 'interpretations of the book' in the above post. This is specifically what's wrong with religion in general and is the reason why terrorism is possible. You have to be able to read and see that these rules are there for specific reasons, not because Allah wants a specific thing from you (except for maybe spiritual solitude and goodness towards others). To point out specifically; You shall not eat pork because it takes a lot of water to raise pigs, they are dirty animals and people have very low hygiene standards at the time. You don't drink because it's likely you'll become destructive, offensive or just plain addicted; causing you to lead a dysfunctional and inefficient life. You pray 5 times a day, so you thank Allah for what he's given you in your life (that's even what's said in the prayers read 5 times a day), that you'll be good to others and you'll share your food, etc. At each prayer, you basically remind yourself of your core values. It's also an opportunity to get together with friends, bring people together and strengthen community ties. It's when people say things like ' We do it because Allah commanded us so' that you enter the dangerous territory. This takes reason out the window, which Allah certainly wanted you to have. In fact you say 'we don't need a reason, Allah doesn't has to provide us with one, because he's Allah'. That, I'd say, is the mark of an educated point of view/mind. If anything, Qur'an diligently states the importance of having an open and inquiring mind, asking the questions 'how' and 'why' and having learning as the primary goal of life. Looks to me you're the one interpreting things. No where in the quran or islam, these reasons are invoked. Sure you should not blindly follow principles, and there is practical reason to each rules. But the real reason you're following them is because to believe in god and trust him You don't follow your country laws because you understand each and every one of them, but because you don't want to be an outlaw, and believe in democracy and stuff
So, you honestly think that people should follow law because else they would be outlaw? That's offending. Law and society are just rules for those that can't understand the greater design behind them, because they have never thought about that or for other reasons, like being uneducated. Religion textbooks have a clear, crystal design behind them. Law and religion were both designed for the same reasons, and they follow they same principle, and it's pretty easy to see what's the driving force behind them.
Assuming they're just there because "you have to believe so" it's insulting to the human intelligence, and miss the crucial point about them, because people simply "reading" and not "comprehending" can easily read things as they like. But if you understand the real reason behind such writings, you can see easily what who wrote those wanted you to do, being the message a law or a religion.
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On September 11 2010 01:03 mikado wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:46 mamelouk wrote:On September 11 2010 00:21 mikado wrote:On September 11 2010 00:07 mamelouk wrote:You obey the law, not believe in it you believe in democracy, not arnachy, so you obey the law you believe in god, so you obey the commandements I don't see the subtility here The book is open to nothing if not interpretation.
have you read even parts of the quran? sure there's things you can interpret in every situation, religion or not. but this statement is kinda harsh btw I'm agnostic You see the reason behind it, that's why you obey it (same thing as seeing why democracy is good, and supporting it, not believing in it). Belief is not applicable to rational existences. It's the wrong word to choose to make an analogy regarding religion. if you believe in god, the reason why you obey commandments, is that you want to go to heaven. it may not be rational, but it seems a good reason. and I think that "belief" is a good word to describe your support in democracy. politic is not an exact science, and different people have different convictions, or "beliefs", about these systems. no one have proven that democracy won't slowly bring humanity to a huge failure. If you lived in a world where the majority of the population suffered from schizophrenia and that spinning on your head 3 times before you left your house was made into law, would you still obey it because you favor and support democracy? so you're saying you believe in democracy because it works so far? Having written that statement, obviously I must've read the Qur'an to make such specific references. And why would it be harsh to say that the book is open to interpretation? you said it's open to nothing but interpretation. that's quite different You'd think with all the elaborate allegories and poetic symbolism in these books, the authors would want you to have a take home message. That's assuming that their target audience is human beings (having the ability to question and infer meaning) and not parrots (blindly repeating every word said or written).
thats a very subtile analysis If you truly are a religious person, the reason you'd believe in god and obey his commands wouldn't be so that you'd get to go to heaven (how can a god desire such a 'quid pro quo' relationship? what happened to do good without expecting anything in return?). It'd be for the love of god that you'd follow him. The most rational explanation I can come up with is that as you learn more and more about the physics and science of everything that surrounds you, you see it's all a wonder and admire the man behind the curtain. Next step up from this would be appreciating the scientific part of it more, understanding the complexity and embracing the causality and become an atheist. Funny that, being a truly religious and spiritual person and an atheist are thinly separated concepts at best.Secondly, yes I believe in (synonymous with support, that's why I say the word 'believe' is not the same thing in both concepts) democracy because it works so far. You only have to look at the example I supplied to reason why. You support or are in favor of certain mechanisms, be it within the democratic system or not, or you don't. Regardless of what you believe though, there is a system called democracy. And the analysis I made there should be obvious to everyone, it's not rocket science. You supply an analogy or a symbol to make a point. Unless, of course, if you literally believe that the earth is 6000 years old. In that case you need to hit the science books.
I hate to talk about things not related to the OP but, I think the other subject is discussed and we are now having a brain storm on other things. I hope TL mods are comfortable with this and sorry for dragging the subject away but had to give an answer.
Anyways lets come to the Quoted part. You perspective is exactly what is described. Muslims also wondered why God created the universe, why do we exist other than worshipping (since God does not need us) Ofcourse the answers are always speculation. One of them is in sunni/sufi/tasavvufi belaif is God wanted to see his own beauty and uniqueness therefore we exist and carrying parts of his soul.
About the heaven deal, there are levels of belaif 2 people are not the same to eachother. Hadiths reports, Allah said "If I did not create heaven and hell, would you not find me worthy of worshipping?" Meaning that the way you should belaive me must be purely for me. (In tasavvuf/sufi belaif the followers wants to dissapear in the existence of God, they dont even wish to go to heaven) But Hadiths also mentions about the people who are hoping to go to heaven and having a good life. They are not to blame because its Allah's promise, and even their level of belaif might not the ultimate one they are still worthy of blessing and there is nothing wrong of hoping to go to heaven or being a good person because you also are afraid of hell or God.
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On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it.
Your belief is that these things are god's will. You understand that many of these things are instructions for living a better life, a better life that includes adherence to a certain religion.
"Because God wills it" is not a justification for morals or actions. There is always an underlying reason behind them. There isn't any moral ground for not eating pork compared to other meats, the reason is simply an economic holdover from a different time. You could fairly easily construct arguments as to why the consumption of alcohol is bad (hindering presence of mind) or why you should pray 5 times a day (reaffirming your own beliefs/allegiances).
The Qur'an was written by men, who believed it was a good idea to include every instruction for how to live the best life possible (at least that's what they believed). Should the same people living in another region of the world attempt to write the same book, you might find several customs and traditions different. This makes sense when viewed historically, as living in a desert in 500 AD, you wouldn't be able to find many people to disagree with your "pork is bad" sentiment.
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On September 11 2010 01:39 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. Your belief is that these things are god's will. You understand that many of these things are instructions for living a better life, a better life that includes adherence to a certain religion. "Because God wills it" is not a justification for morals or actions. There is always an underlying reason behind them. There isn't any moral ground for not eating pork compared to other meats, the reason is simply an economic holdover from a different time. You could fairly easily construct arguments as to why the consumption of alcohol is bad (hindering presence of mind) or why you should pray 5 times a day (reaffirming your own beliefs/allegiances). The Qur'an was written by men, who believed it was a good idea to include every instruction for how to live the best life possible (at least that's what they believed). Should the same people living in another region of the world attempt to write the same book, you might find several customs and traditions different. This makes sense when viewed historically, as living in a desert in 500 AD, you wouldn't be able to find many people to disagree with your "pork is bad" sentiment.
You are pretty sure about what you write altough they are base on your assumption. I am not goint to argue about what you speculate since you cannot prove anything, and I dont have to prove anything about my belaif too. Lets continue our lives where you belaive Quran is man made, and I belaive not.
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You can't stop someone from doing something legal. No matter how distasteful you personally find it. Whether or not one is even right to consider it distasteful is another matter, but you can't stop someone from doing something legal. And religious freedom is, dare I say it, the principle on which the USA was founded on. The moment we back away from that, we lose all credibility to call ourselves the leader of the free world.
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On September 11 2010 02:05 Armut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 01:39 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 23:16 Armut wrote:On September 10 2010 22:51 Offhand wrote:On September 10 2010 14:25 Deyster wrote:On September 01 2010 01:47 Offhand wrote:
Are the Qu'ranists rejecting all hadiths or just the Sunni ones? Either way, good luck getting any religion to discard a set of holy works. I know the Qu'ran was written/compiled some 200 years after Mohamed, but I don't know if it's as distorted and politicized as original versions of the bible. Wrong. The Qur'an was written down while prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was alive. Add to that the Qur'an was also memorized by Muslims since the days of prophet Muhammad as we use the Qur'an in our daily prayers. So this pretty much protected the Qur'an from being modified to fit a certain group's agenda. This still doesn't prevent the book from being a collection of political points from the time it was written. That's how we get most of our nonsensical sounding religious functions. For example, it's against Kosher law to eat pork. The stated reason being that pigs are unclean animals which is pretty much a double standard when you consider the era it was written down predates most soap use. The reality is that it takes an enormous amount of water to raise a pig, this doesn't work well with a group of desert peoples. We dont eat pork, because Allah advised us not to. We dont drink alcohol simply because Allah advised not to (you can still do these things and be a muslim, these are sins, not fundemantel rules of "faith" it just makes you little less ideal muslim described in Quran) We are not praying 5 times a day, because it is good for our bones (the movement I am referring) but we are doing it because the prophet showed us the way, and Allah ordered it in Quran. The religious practices are done because the Gods wants so. If we accept the existence of God, and his nature and adjectives described in QUran and in other books, theres no need for another reason. Because the creator of everthing is not obliged to show creatures any reason for any order of him, why? because he is the God. It is the same principle for not allowing Adam to eat that only fruit on the tree. No because the fruid was bad for him but in the sake of testing his obedeince. Just wanted to clear out the confusion about Quranic practice and the reasons behind it. Your belief is that these things are god's will. You understand that many of these things are instructions for living a better life, a better life that includes adherence to a certain religion. "Because God wills it" is not a justification for morals or actions. There is always an underlying reason behind them. There isn't any moral ground for not eating pork compared to other meats, the reason is simply an economic holdover from a different time. You could fairly easily construct arguments as to why the consumption of alcohol is bad (hindering presence of mind) or why you should pray 5 times a day (reaffirming your own beliefs/allegiances). The Qur'an was written by men, who believed it was a good idea to include every instruction for how to live the best life possible (at least that's what they believed). Should the same people living in another region of the world attempt to write the same book, you might find several customs and traditions different. This makes sense when viewed historically, as living in a desert in 500 AD, you wouldn't be able to find many people to disagree with your "pork is bad" sentiment. You are pretty sure about what you write altough they are base on your assumption. I am not goint to argue about what you speculate since you cannot prove anything, and I dont have to prove anything about my belaif too. Lets continue our lives where you belaive Quran is man made, and I belaive not.
Surely any being that can call itself God must have a reason for it's actions, God does not decree such things for shits and giggles. If so, then what is the justification for not eating pork? Have you considered that God may only have given that advice to Muhammad and his immediate followers of the time? Have you considered that some laws weren't meant to be eternal? Even under your own belief system, these rules do not make sense.
+ Show Spoiler +God does not exist, religion is an ancient bonding technique to increase the strength of a group via numbers. There is no debate as to whether the Qur'an is man made or not, as "God" does not write things down. The only issue is whether or not you believe rules made for an entirely different time and culture could possibly apply to modern society.
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I don't even know how people can say God doesn't exist, there's no way you can prove that, and to say so affirmatively without concrete proof is just arrogant and stupid.
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EPT
