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Grrr.... just as I was about to post this originally my internet browser crashed so I had to retype everything so I'm sorry for being so brief.
I was wondering why there is such a connection between starcraft and poker. I was just watching an interview with IdrA and he mentioned at one point he was thinking about quiting starcraft and was going to start playing poker and that sparked a quite a few other random memories when I have seen the two sports together. I don't know THAT much about poker but I understand the game and in Starcraft 2 I am a Mid Diamond level player so I am comfortable saying I am knowledgeable enough in that area.
Maybe it is that they are both quite strategic and people who love the strategy part of starcraft can't get enough, or maybe after becoming used to dealing with such intense strategy, starcraft players are generally successful in poker so they figure "hey, why not play a game where I can make a ton of money without having to be the top pros". I am not sure.
If you have any insight as to why there is a connection between the two please enlighten me because I am quite curious.
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It's because poker makes you lots of money, and because if you are good at games, you are good at games. You need quick thinking and the ability to read your opponent, those skills are universal.
There are plenty of top fps players who dropped their games to make a living playing poker and the same is true of mtg players.
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That's what (elky?) did and now he is a millionaire im jealous
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They have a well-trained and agile mind. It's what is required for most high level games in any strategy game.
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because both starcraft and poker requires a high level of intellect and experience. very decision-heavy activities with neither emphasizing on skill or any other physical demands.
there is really no "special" connection if thats what your wondering about.
Its as connected as basketball is to soccer both requires skill and teamwork with little emphasis on intelligence.
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Tillerman quit sc and went to poker as well
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If you have the discipline to reach a high level at BW you have the discipline to do pretty much anything and poker happens to be something you really only need discipline and dedication to reach a high skill level at. There's not much else to it, sure both are games of imperfect information but there aren't that many skills that just instantly carry over.
On August 14 2010 17:10 storm44 wrote:
That's what (elky?) did and now he is a millionaire im jealous
ElkY, Rekrul, Grrrr, FishEye.. the list goes on. ElkY being the most successful.
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Honestly? I think it's almost exclusively because of Elky and Tillerman. The stories that they quit SC / WC3 to become rich with poker is just something that everybody in the SC/SC2/WC3 communiy knows, so it's probably something most people phantasize about during one point or another. At least elky's stories is also very known in the poker community of course (since he is part of Team Pokerstars Pro)
As with the relation from Starcraft to Poker... there is really none. I mean, obviously both are games, but they have quite different skillsets. But it doesn't matter, if you became good at Starcraft you probably are good at improving yourself in a game if you put the time and effort into it, which is why you'll probably be successfull in poker with lots of patience.
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I guess a few high profile players making the switch helped spread the word, but many of the top "poker pros" nowadays have a background in gaming of some sort, not just RTS but FPS or card games like Magic (Brock Parker, David Williams, Haxton, Bonomo etc). Hell, even a number of chess players and actual athletes have made the switch.
If you have the mindset to become good at one competitive game, then it's easy to apply that in a a different field such as poker.
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On August 14 2010 18:04 FuRong wrote:
I guess a few high profile players making the switch helped spread the word, but many of the top "poker pros" nowadays have a background in gaming of some sort, not just RTS but FPS or card games like Magic (Brock Parker, David Williams, Haxton, Bonomo etc). Hell, even a number of chess players and actual athletes have made the switch.
If you have the mindset to become good at one competitive game, then it's easy to apply that in a a different field such as poker.
well, pretty much all pros have some background of that sort. You're only very rarely going to find new players who have a business background or something.
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RTS and hold em have a lot of similar thinking. I would even argue the only major difference is APM (you don't need any in poker obviously).
Early on, you are trying to minimize damage to your money while you get into a position to take out your opponent.
As you transition into mid-game, you can see everybodies relative strength, but they may have a trick or two that can flip the game around, so you can't just go in swinging.
There is a lot of emphasis on passive-aggressive play, deception and general game sense, knowing when you can get away with wild plays and when you can't, even though you have limited knowledge of what your opponent actually has at the moment along with having the patience to wait for the right opportunity.
In the end game, one of the two is clearly in the lead, but that still doesn't give him enough power to tread lightly, a skilled player can rally from virtually nothing and win the match even when it seems impossible.
In the end, StarCraft is a lot of fun, but poker is where the money is at. You can make a great living being the 10,000th best person in the world at poker because people will sit down at a table and throw money at you because its fun. Not so much in starcraft.
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I find the Starcraft and Poker discussion very intresting.
Well to put it simple, the reason why they are so tied together is because both games have pretty much the same strategic elements, such as deception, decision making, reading your opponent, adaption, to know when your the underdog and so fourth. (there are probobly many more you can name but you get the point)
What i've discovered lately aswell is the mindset when you sit down and play a game of Starcraft. Because mindset is a huge factor in Starcraft. Being focused, having a plan, no distractions. This applies to Poker aswell, because when your not focused, you'll end up making bad decisions which leads to your loss.
I've studied some poker during the past years (im not a player just a hobby player) and you can find alot of strategic similarity on both games. There is alot of psychological startegies you can apply from Poker to Starcraft, and vice versa.
Is there any interview where these past stracraft -> poker players that cover this subject? I would love to see/read one!
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Personally, ive been good at gaming in general ( not starcraft ) a couple of years ago, i wasnt ubergreat, but i made around 30.000 euros playing computer games (mostly unreal tournament and WC3).
I always was good at games, so when i watched the movie Rounders i wanted to try poker aswell, and when playing it online, it really feels just like playing some computer game.
I didnt make as much as Elky, but i still wont have to worry about work in the next couple of years, but i never realized it to be real money when i played for it until i tried playing poker live, which is fun but reaaaaaalllly slow 
So i guess, since the mind of a gamer is also very good for a poker player, it is clever for poker site affiliates to try and get those ppl to play through their sites, since they are most likely to become long term winning players and therefore make them alot of money.
Thats why alot of advertisements are linked on gaming sites that refer to poker.
Another reason might simple be: Everyone and their mum has tried poker or something similar in their life, and the average joe does it for a couple of times and loses on average 500$ (this is internet poker long term statistics) before he quits. That way he will never be recognized as a poker player, while a good gamer (read: starcraft player) will more likely be successful, like elky and partly Grrr and many more.
Actually, when i visited places to play poker like vegas, i always met alot of young ppl with gaming background, alot of them were superrich through poker. Fact is, most of them werent the best gamers, since ppl who are really good at one thing wont convert as easily as the talented players who never practised enough to make it to the top.
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Russian Federation81 Posts
i think connection of starcraft/chess/,insert your fav game> for success in poker is way overstimated
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On August 14 2010 19:51 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
i think connection of starcraft/chess/,insert your fav game> for success in poker is way overstimated
this.
There are some connections in terms of level of deductive reasoning and thinking in terms of efficiency or maximization, but they are pretty thin beyond that. Not a big correlation between a good poker player and a good gamer, and vice versa. Too many other variables involved.
A lot of poker players have gaming backgrounds/hobbies. That's pretty much it. People who are drawn to games for a living likely played them in their childhood/adolescence, but they are entirely different games.
Idra couldn't handle the SWONGS of poker with his current attitude. Would tilt massively, tap the glass, drive away fish and have people bring their best game against him.
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On August 14 2010 17:49 Puosu wrote:If you have the discipline to reach a high level at BW you have the discipline to do pretty much anything and poker happens to be something you really only need discipline and dedication to reach a high skill level at. There's not much else to it, sure both are games of imperfect information but there aren't that many skills that just instantly carry over. Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 17:10 storm44 wrote:
That's what (elky?) did and now he is a millionaire im jealous ElkY, Rekrul, Grrrr, FishEye.. the list goes on. ElkY being the most successful.
I have heard that Slayer has won even more than Elky but it was a couple of years ago before Elky got sponsored by PS.
Any updates on Slayer ? ( Guy seems quite low profile ).
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I just registered for THIS thread.
correlation between Starcraft and Poker is HUGE.
You won't become a better poker player by playing SC, but i noticed that every SC player with decent skills were doing well in Poker! And Why? That's pretty simple, to be successful at Starcraft mean to be disciplined and always focused! Trying to find the leaks to crush your opponent. I think it would be relevant to see the brain activity of a Progamer while playing Poker and SC. I'm sure the solicited parts are pretty much the same area.
I'm a good SC player , C on iccup(after a huge 5 years break). was Diamond in Sc2 Beta, and i'm doing FINE with Poker ! I will play for a living soon, I'm convinced.
I've also noticed a link between Poker, Starcraft and Students doing an Economic / Finance Degree.
I'm doing all the 3 !
Heres my graff for NL30 and NL50 , only 7k hands played, but its a start.
http://img835.imageshack.us/f/graff.jpg/
I think we are gifted people mentally strong enough to achieve great goals.
No doubt there's a link.
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10387 Posts
I think Idra would be a terrible poker player tbh, he tilts too much for one thing.
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On September 06 2010 07:33 nucky wrote:
I've also noticed a link between Poker, Starcraft and Students doing an Economic / Finance Degree.
they actually tried training korean progamers to become day traders. i didn't follow up on it but i'm curious to know the results. i personally thought they should be groomed to be air traffic controllers and macro the airports of the world so i don't have to wait forever just to begin a vacation.
http://kotaku.com/168440/starcraft-korean-pro gamers-and-day-trading
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Thx for your post Terranist , pretty interesting
I'm fascinated by Aircraft technology, Astronomy etc..
Slayer'sBoxer went in the Air Force when he retired i think..
We are Profiled as potentially good Poker Player 
I used Graphs and statistics combined into chart to find my weakness and step up my game.
The program is called Hold'em Manager.Professional. Crazy Stuff.
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I'm mediocre at both, so there's definitely correlation!
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United States24664 Posts
Yeah I've always found the connection to be interesting.
BTW I'm going to move this to general I guess... SC2 doesn't seem like the right place to me.
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The main problem in poker is vitality. I can log on to a poker site and play a single SnG and have a very, very good chance of placing in the money if not finishing first. However I can't play game after game after game and still have a good chance of winning. I lose my concentration, I get tired of the prize, and I get tilted by losing. The same is true for me in starcraft. I can't play a ton of games without running out of steam, and I get very frustrated by losses (especially after investing half an hour of intense play).
Compared to progamers, who can play their best for 14 hours a day without burning out. That kind of vitality is not a small part of poker.
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On August 14 2010 17:38 virgozero wrote:
because both starcraft and poker requires a high level of intellect and experience. very decision-heavy activities with neither emphasizing on skill or any other physical demands.
there is really no "special" connection if thats what your wondering about.
Its as connected as basketball is to soccer both requires skill and teamwork with little emphasis on intelligence.
A little off topic here - but if you're of the opinion that basketball doesn't require intelligence and decision making, you need to play more sports. Given the same amount of practice, a more intelligent person is probably going to be better at basketball.
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There are a lot of BW players that made a successful transition towards poker.
If you want to know more about the why and how I would suggest going to http://www.liquidpoker.net/. A lot of the players that made the transition hang out there.
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the relation is that they're both games. people try to be successful and make money at one game, and then jump to the next game. plus, people who play rts' well are sometimes pretty smart people (i won't stereotype), so they'd excel at poker anyways.
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On September 06 2010 07:49 Chronocide wrote:
The main problem in poker is vitality. I can log on to a poker site and play a single SnG and have a very, very good chance of placing in the money if not finishing first. However I can't play game after game after game and still have a good chance of winning. I lose my concentration, I get tired of the prize, and I get tilted by losing. The same is true for me in starcraft. I can't play a ton of games without running out of steam, and I get very frustrated by losses (especially after investing half an hour of intense play).
Compared to progamers, who can play their best for 14 hours a day without burning out. That kind of vitality is not a small part of poker.
That's why you have to study yourself.
How many tables is more profitable?
What limit is the most suitable for you?
How Long Can you hold a positive winrate ? $ / Hours
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basically there are two reasons that starcraft and poker have a connection
Elky switched over to poker and became a millionaire...so his fans tried poker as well.
starcraft requires you to not be retarded. Poker also requires this. So a lot of non retarded people switched over and had success with it....which in turn made more people switch over after seeing even more success.
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United States42516 Posts
It's a strategy game of limited information, estimating ranges and reading your opponents intent.
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stroggos is right, the main connection between starcraft and poker is that all the top foreign sc players are friends with each other and encourage each other to do it. there are plenty of games that are more similar to poker than starcraft.
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On September 06 2010 08:02 stroggos wrote:
Elky switched over to poker and became a millionaire...so his fans tried poker as well.
ahahah
My path was parallel.
I never knew about Elky until today when I clicked on Bertrand "Elky" Grospellier's profile in my PokerStars account.
And I had once asked to myself the same question when I saw a South Korean sponsored by Full Tilt Poker playing online.
heres one :
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/eunjong-byun
Heres another :
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/somyung-sim
THAT's just insane... Lets go make some bread my friends.
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On September 06 2010 07:33 nucky wrote: i'm doing FINE with Poker ! I will play for a living soon, I'm convinced. I've also noticed a link between Poker, Starcraft and Students doing an Economic / Finance Degree. I'm doing all the 3 ! Heres my graff for NL30 and NL50 , only 7k hands played, but its a start. http://img835.imageshack.us/f/graff.jpg/I think we are gifted people mentally strong enough to achieve great goals. No doubt there's a link.
This is the perfect example of what not to be and how not to think... If you have the slightest though of going pro after only 7k hands you will be in a word of shock and will want to kill yourself when you'll hit your first 50 Buy-ins Under EV month....
DO NOT even consider that possibility before AT THE VERY LEAST 200k+ hands...
You shouldn't even tell yourself that you are a "winning player" before at the very least 100-150k hands played at your stakes.
Google "Poker variance simulator" and you'll see how HUGE the variance truly his. A "losing player" that loses at the rate of -2 bb/100 can still be a winner over a sample of 1 Million hands.... Just due to variance. This is exceptionally rare of course, the example I gave his dramatic on purpose but you get the deal.
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Stop being so negative i just showed a 3 days session. ROFL.
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Nucky,
I'm not bashing you. I'm just stating this for everyone interested in poker to know. Understanding this variance is very very very crucial. I hope you understand and don't take it personal.
Edit: By the way, the simple fact that you posted a 7k hands or one session graph would get you labelled as a fish by anyone knowledgeable in poker. It's just nothing, it doesn't mean anything, so why look at it? Why post it?
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On September 06 2010 07:54 Golden Ghost wrote:There are a lot of BW players that made a successful transition towards poker. If you want to know more about the why and how I would suggest going to http://www.liquidpoker.net/. A lot of the players that made the transition hang out there.
I lurk there sometimes to try to learn things about poker. I can only tell what they're talking about like 10% of the time, it's like they speak a foreign language.
I started using pokerstrategy.com after watching the TSL2, but they don't let people from the US see anything beyond the basic-level articles. It's done me well for playing .02nl and dollar sit-and-gos. I'll probably have to actually learn something when I go up in limits, though...
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On September 06 2010 08:10 nucky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 08:02 stroggos wrote:
Elky switched over to poker and became a millionaire...so his fans tried poker as well.
ahahah My path was parallel. I never knew about Elky until today when I clicked on Robert "Elky" Grospellier's profile in my PokerStars account. And I had once asked to myself the same question when I saw a South Korean sponsored by Full Tilt Poker playing online. heres one : http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/eunjong-byunHeres another : http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/somyung-simTHAT's just insane... Lets go make some bread my friends.
It's Bertrand, not Robert 
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I was not here to argue about this anyway, I put a the Graph to show the close link between finance , Starcraft and poker.
I Played over 100k Hands. but lets keep this thread simple and forget the detail 
[/QUOTE]
It's Bertrand, not Robert [/QUOTE]
ahahah , sorry
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On September 06 2010 07:33 nucky wrote:I just registered for THIS thread. correlation between Starcraft and Poker is HUGE. You won't become a better poker player by playing SC, but i noticed that every SC player with decent skills were doing well in Poker! And Why? That's pretty simple, to be successful at Starcraft mean to be disciplined and always focused! Trying to find the leaks to crush your opponent. I think it would be relevant to see the brain activity of a Progamer while playing Poker and SC. I'm sure the solicited parts are pretty much the same area. I'm a good SC player , C on iccup(after a huge 5 years break). was Diamond in Sc2 Beta, and i'm doing FINE with Poker ! I will play for a living soon, I'm convinced. I've also noticed a link between Poker, Starcraft and Students doing an Economic / Finance Degree. I'm doing all the 3 ! Heres my graff for NL30 and NL50 , only 7k hands played, but its a start. http://img835.imageshack.us/f/graff.jpg/I think we are gifted people mentally strong enough to achieve great goals. No doubt there's a link.
So I have an economics degree, play diamond in SC2, and was C- on ICCUP, so you think I should take up poker? franky while, I know the rules and have played a handfull of times, I dont see myself being good it. Is there a good place to learn the basics and get a feel for Online poker before you get owned on the low bet tables? lol
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Too bad Rekrul never started his poker training site aimed at gamers.
Could have made a lot of money off of that.
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On September 06 2010 08:22 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:33 nucky wrote:I just registered for THIS thread. correlation between Starcraft and Poker is HUGE. You won't become a better poker player by playing SC, but i noticed that every SC player with decent skills were doing well in Poker! And Why? That's pretty simple, to be successful at Starcraft mean to be disciplined and always focused! Trying to find the leaks to crush your opponent. I think it would be relevant to see the brain activity of a Progamer while playing Poker and SC. I'm sure the solicited parts are pretty much the same area. I'm a good SC player , C on iccup(after a huge 5 years break). was Diamond in Sc2 Beta, and i'm doing FINE with Poker ! I will play for a living soon, I'm convinced. I've also noticed a link between Poker, Starcraft and Students doing an Economic / Finance Degree. I'm doing all the 3 ! Heres my graff for NL30 and NL50 , only 7k hands played, but its a start. http://img835.imageshack.us/f/graff.jpg/I think we are gifted people mentally strong enough to achieve great goals. No doubt there's a link. So I have an economics degree, play diamond in SC2, and was C- on ICCUP, so you think I should take up poker? franky while, I know the rules and have played a handfull of times, I dont see myself being good it. Is there a good place to learn the basics and get a feel for Online poker before you get owned on the low bet tables? lol
Obviously, you will learn the game faster than any other random player.
There's people who never improve you know. The process can be long, but I think that if you dedicate as much time and energy learning poker than you did with SC, you will become a Winning player without a doubt. Just apply some law, odds, be consistent and you win in the long run.
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On September 06 2010 08:22 Darpa wrote:
So I have an economics degree, play diamond in SC2, and was C- on ICCUP, so you think I should take up poker? franky while, I know the rules and have played a handfull of times, I dont see myself being good it. Is there a good place to learn the basics and get a feel for Online poker before you get owned on the low bet tables? lol
Just grind 1c/2c micros and go to poker forums like 2+2, flopturnriver, liquidpoker, etc. and learn from there. If you have the money, you can go and watch coaching videos from deuces cracked, card runners, bluefire poker etc.
Although the games are similar in that they're games of incomplete information, I think that a big factor in why sc, chess, or other strategy gamers become good at poker is the mentality we have. The thing about people who get decent at starcraft is that we're willing to sit down, study the game, and grind till we get things right. In both games, if you're not willing to grind, then the game isn't really for you. Gamers need that passion and curiosity to drive them to work hard at the game. The same thing is required for you to get good at poker or many other things in life. Sure there's natural talent involved, but you also need good work ethic since hard work > talent.
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On September 06 2010 08:36 FoieGras wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 08:22 Darpa wrote:
So I have an economics degree, play diamond in SC2, and was C- on ICCUP, so you think I should take up poker? franky while, I know the rules and have played a handfull of times, I dont see myself being good it. Is there a good place to learn the basics and get a feel for Online poker before you get owned on the low bet tables? lol Just grind 1c/2c micros and go to poker forums like 2+2, flopturnriver, liquidpoker, etc. and learn from there. If you have the money, you can go and watch coaching videos from deuces cracked, card runners, bluefire poker etc. Although the games are similar in that they're games of incomplete information, I think that a big factor in why sc, chess, or other strategy gamers become good at poker is the mentality we have. The thing about people who get decent at starcraft is that we're willing to sit down, study the game, and grind till we get things right. In both games, if you're not willing to grind, then the game isn't really for you. Gamers need that passion and curiosity to drive them to work hard at the game. The same thing is required for you to get good at poker or many other things in life. Sure there's natural talent involved, but you also need good work ethic since hard work > talent.
THIS.
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I have a pet theory that the hole-cam set-back pro-esports a decade. (everywhere but Korea)
The poker boom took away potential gamers and sucked up sponsorship money.
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I like to compare poker with SC how people obsess over their opening builds in SC, doing everything to make it perfect, just how you work over and over on your preflop ranges in poker as in which hands you play and how. Then when you've made it through the opening part there's so many more options to make based on how you want to continue the match and based on what your opponent does. It's pretty much the same way of thinking and approach when playing SC and poker. There's also the "grind" part to it (a physical part) and being able to handle downswings (mental part). Both games are surprisingly similar in what you need to be able to become succesful at it.
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On September 06 2010 08:55 gyth wrote:
I have a pet theory that the hole-cam set-back pro-esports a decade. (everywhere but Korea)
The poker boom took away potential gamers and sucked up sponsorship money.
Interesting theory. I personally don't think the demographic is the same though. Poker is probably 17-60 years old. While esports is a lot younger I'd say 14-25 years old.
If anything I think Poker has injected money into esports (PokerStrategy sponsoring the TSL, Hevhad Khan backing/Sponsoring fighting games tournaments and big money matches, Fatal1ty being sponsored by Full Tilt Poker, etc.) Rekrul wanted to start a poker training site aimed at gamers and I'm quite sure we'll see more of these kinds of business ventures pretty soon. Could be highly profitable for both worlds.
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Poker is a universal thing, really. I'm not sure there could be said that there is a strong connection, or that there are strong parallels between Starcraft and poker (besides being smart), or if they exist, that they are even that unique. Magic: the Gathering players have succeeded in poker too. Like somebody above said, you can make a lot more in poker than in games. Poker is where the money is at.
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At first I was like "lol IdrA at poker?" but then I remembered how ElkY said in an interview he listens to The Gladiator theme while smashing his keyboards to bad beats in a very old interview.
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rofl, thanks for the laugh
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I was reading about a few gamers that made livings from online poker because they used their "micro" to play 10-25 tables at a time. I think there were 3 or 4 WoW players that did/do that.
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was one of the guys that started poker back when rekrul posted his shady korean backroom poker storys and when LP was launched.
got pretty fast into it and played poker for a "living"/extra money for some years. nothing major just grinding nl50/100 mainly. made some thousands $ in that time of the initial 5$ i got for free from pokerstrategy.de.
if youre good at broodwar you most likely are a atlest semi smart person with enough dedication and focus. with those feats many have a rather easy time getting into poker (atleast compared to random dudes). imo thats all there is to it outside of our old bw heros all getting into it .
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Idk why starcraft is like poker, but the strategy boards on this forum remind a lot of the strategy boards on 2p2, and the mindset of the people posting on them seems pretty similar (except all the imbalance talk - omg this guy is 3betting me every hand, that is so imbalanced!). Also they are the only two games that I've gotten into with the same level of intensity. I think it has something to do with the fact that they are games with a lot of depth and are fun to think about as well as to play, so the depth is quickly probed and the game evolves in interesting ways.
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We probably don't hear about all the SC players who try out and poker and don't make it. It's possible there are just as many who don't do well.
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Just a quick note, I wouldn't get into poker to make money at all anymore if you are new. The difficulty of the games just doesn't make it a good investment: find something more useful for your time. If you want to make a ton of money, study hard and go to med school or law school or spend your time working on your own business. Don't try to get into poker to make money: it is no longer anywhere near a good choice. If you enjoy the game, though, play it.
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because well placed bets are similar to well-made timing pushes. both are based on position and scouting info and both force your opponent to react one way or another.
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302 Posts
Theres is a big difference between both.
Do you know how Pros usualy spam in the start of the game? You cant spam in poker....EVER if you have ADD like that your fucked.
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poker seems more like chance... even if you make a good call he can get some totally lucky thing on the turn and/or the river but in sc if you make a good decision like drag all your scvs vs a 13nex you will win, granted you have the micro and don't make a stupid mistake.
poker to me is like choosing a build order, how much money to throw into the round now and then and hope that your opponent doesn't make the straight draw or whatever.
sc is more like, you know what to do and you can adjust your play accordingly all the time and what happens is exactly a result of what you and your opponent did, not some probability calculation.
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In online poker, a lot of people do some insane multi-tabling (play 10, 20, 30 games at at time). This requires a lot of multi-tasking and APM actually. It's a small detail but I think they are related skills.
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On September 07 2010 06:07 oogles wrote:
In online poker, a lot of people do some insane multi-tabling (play 10, 20, 30 games at at time). This requires a lot of multi-tasking and APM actually. It's a small detail but I think they are related skills.
With the big difference that APM in poker doesn't have much at all to do with mechanics. Everyone can learn the actual mechanics for multitabling poker but not everyone can manage to master good micro/macro mechanics in an RTS game.
The similarities in multitabling poker and playing SC2 is the multi-tasking and being able to adjust the way you play based on the information you are given. However in poker there is a way to play perfect (not that it has been solved yet, google "GTO" or "game theory optimal") where you will in the long run at worst break even if your opponent plays perfect as well, which there really isn't in SC/SC2 (if the game is completely balanced all strategies can be countered).
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There's GTO strategy and then there's optimal execution which isn't really a part of game theory.
Problem is that how well you can execute (say, micro mutalisks) in part decides how viable various strategies are (say, 2hat muta vs terran) which complicates the whole "strategy vs execution" thing.
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This isn't SC related but is related to PC Gaming and poker.
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/johnathan-wendel
Fatal1ty, a top Quake player and one of the most famous gamers, plays poker online. People from so many different background play poker.
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On August 14 2010 19:21 Viruuus wrote:Personally, ive been good at gaming in general ( not starcraft ) a couple of years ago, i wasnt ubergreat, but i made around 30.000 euros playing computer games (mostly unreal tournament and WC3). I always was good at games, so when i watched the movie Rounders i wanted to try poker aswell, and when playing it online, it really feels just like playing some computer game. I didnt make as much as Elky, but i still wont have to worry about work in the next couple of years, but i never realized it to be real money when i played for it until i tried playing poker live, which is fun but reaaaaaalllly slow So i guess, since the mind of a gamer is also very good for a poker player, it is clever for poker site affiliates to try and get those ppl to play through their sites, since they are most likely to become long term winning players and therefore make them alot of money. Thats why alot of advertisements are linked on gaming sites that refer to poker. Another reason might simple be: Everyone and their mum has tried poker or something similar in their life, and the average joe does it for a couple of times and loses on average 500$ (this is internet poker long term statistics) before he quits. That way he will never be recognized as a poker player, while a good gamer (read: starcraft player) will more likely be successful, like elky and partly Grrr and many more. Actually, when i visited places to play poker like vegas, i always met alot of young ppl with gaming background, alot of them were superrich through poker. Fact is, most of them werent the best gamers, since ppl who are really good at one thing wont convert as easily as the talented players who never practised enough to make it to the top.
Are you the Virus of UT Classic fame (mTw, pretty good with the dreaded Flak gun iirc)?
Poker is a lot easier than SC2 imo and you can make money immediately if you're any good. Anyone with the will to grind out 8h a day of pro/semipro gaming could make some decent money playing small stakes holdem. The biggest challange is psychology and being able to handle losing money
Sick SC players with insane APM could probably 12+ table rush poker :D
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hmmm i've been actually thinking of this lately, and also if anyone would care to teach me the basics of poker i'd be VERY thankful, i am a good starcraft player and have always thought about playing poker as well, thanks
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On August 14 2010 19:51 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
i think connection of starcraft/chess/,insert your fav game> for success in poker is way overstimated
Well, success in SC and success in chess aren't incredibly correlated. Some people simple physically cannot become the top players in chess. Chess is basically just working with a supercomplex logic framework that grows in complexity every turn, and whoever messes up first loses. Its a game of complete information and no imperfect executions. The minds of top chess players literally function differently then everyone else.
Poker on the other hand, is intuitive. If your smart enough to be pro at Starcraft, you possess the same intuitive skills needed to be good at poker, and likely the discipline as well.
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Trends show that because I am a competitive gamer, I will be better at poker than non-gamers. So if your a non-gamer and you want to invest in me to learn poker and play poker, then send me a pm. You supply the funding, I gamble with them, and I'll split 75%/25% my way on whatever winnings I make.
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i'd probably say that they are just much more dedicaded than most people
thats why they succeed at games and thats why they succeed in whatever they wanna do
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On September 06 2010 19:59 cz wrote:
Just a quick note, I wouldn't get into poker to make money at all anymore if you are new. The difficulty of the games just doesn't make it a good investment: find something more useful for your time. If you want to make a ton of money, study hard and go to med school or law school or spend your time working on your own business. Don't try to get into poker to make money: it is no longer anywhere near a good choice. If you enjoy the game, though, play it.
I agree with this, unless you'd be content with grinding out 100nl at best or so.
clowntable, if youre the same clowntable from 2p2/ftp i'm surprised you don't know that rush caps tables at 4
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I am and you can play 4x6max; 4xFR and a lower limit. I'd be curious to see how many rush tables guys with 200+ APM could handle without any noticable stress (I'd also be interested in measuring my APM while playing rush) :D
I can't play more than 4x6m+4xFR without my brain frying though, my concentration drops very noticably at > 5 tables already, hourly is probably capped somewhere around 8 tables though
I usually prefer to add 4x6m tables from one limit below to the 4 of my regular limit because FR is pretty tilting
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Oh, I don't play FTP anymore so I didn't know that, guess that makes sense .
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hmm i think the ability to make instant, informed decisions based off of minimal knowledge is the biggest crossover between the two.
knowing what the other player has (and how likely he is to win) off how he bets and reacts isn't so different from guessing the other players entire build order and timings off of when he took his gas
plus, mind games are still mind games whether you're in a bo5 or at a table at wsop
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To be totally honest I used to think along the lines of everyone else, but after more thought I think the main reason that starcraft seems to have some kind of link towards poker is just simply because of the ability of starcraft players to sit down and try at something for a certain length of time without giving up physically or mentally.
Now there are a lot of people who play a lot of poker, so they're trying physically but give up mentally and just do whatever. The real strong starcraft players have a deeper ability to concentrate mentally on something usually very taxing.
I was going to write more but I'm drunk as fuck and can't remember.
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On September 21 2010 09:55 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 19:51 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
i think connection of starcraft/chess/,insert your fav game> for success in poker is way overstimated Well, success in SC and success in chess aren't incredibly correlated. Some people simple physically cannot become the top players in chess. Chess is basically just working with a supercomplex logic framework that grows in complexity every turn, and whoever messes up first loses. Its a game of complete information and no imperfect executions. The minds of top chess players literally function differently then everyone else. Poker on the other hand, is intuitive. If your smart enough to be pro at Starcraft, you possess the same intuitive skills needed to be good at poker, and likely the discipline as well.
This post is unbelievably dumb. How much chess have you played? Because I've probably played a couple thousand hours, and I couldn't disagree more. A "super-complex logic framework?" What the fuck does that mean? You have to look ahead all of a half dozen moves to be an IM or GM, evaluating a few plausible possibilities at each juncture. The relevant skills are a good memory for openings and endgames, "creativity" to see interesting possibilities, pattern recognition to quickly check potential tactics, and the knowledge and experience to put it together and evaluate positions. Playing chess is not like doing math in your head.
And poker is intuitive? Can you define intuitive? Because humans are notoriously naturally bad at intuitively calculating odds; that's why casinos exist. How is it intuitive to play thousands of hands, watching your good strategy lose to lucky players, before you're statistically likely to win out? Poker is about overriding your biases & intuition and putting your trust in strategy and mathematics for the long run.
That said, I manage to disagree completely with your whole post and then agree with the conclusion. People who are good at games are good at games. If you're disciplined and good at games, you can go play whatever and win; if you don't have a strong preference, you may as well play something like poker that you can actually make real money at.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img835.imageshack.us/f/graff.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/4589/idraemotionchart.jpg)
