• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:42
CEST 23:42
KST 06:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL51Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Unit and Spell Similarities Help: rep cant save
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 626 users

The Big Programming Thread - Page 922

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 920 921 922 923 924 1031 Next
Thread Rules
1. This is not a "do my homework for me" thread. If you have specific questions, ask, but don't post an assignment or homework problem and expect an exact solution.
2. No recruiting for your cockamamie projects (you won't replace facebook with 3 dudes you found on the internet and $20)
3. If you can't articulate why a language is bad, don't start slinging shit about it. Just remember that nothing is worse than making CSS IE6 compatible.
4. Use [code] tags to format code blocks.
phar
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1080 Posts
November 29 2017 06:25 GMT
#18421
On November 29 2017 08:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 08:05 Excludos wrote:
On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is".


You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions.


Exactly what kind of education do you guys have? In Norway computer science is an engineering degree on the same line as electrical engineer, biochemistry or machine engineers. It requires semi decent grades and quite a bit of math, physics, a bit of chemistry, and a few other general subjects. A for-loop is literally what you learn at first week, and you finish the third year by spending the last 6 months programming a fully functioning program and a full thesis to go along with it. I would have suspected that most of the world operates like this? If so there is simply no way you don't know how to do extremely basic things like a loop after graduating.


I thought the same thing until I interviewed people who couldn't write fizzbuzz with cs degrees.


Yea anyone telling you fizz buzz style questions aren't necessary has not done enough interviews, or is at a tiny company that can be very picky about who they interview (or is unaware of a pipeline in front of them that is filtering for people who can't do fizz buzz).
Who after all is today speaking about the destruction of the Armenians?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17970 Posts
November 29 2017 06:42 GMT
#18422
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4725 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 09:01:18
November 29 2017 08:54 GMT
#18423
On November 29 2017 15:25 phar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 08:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On November 29 2017 08:05 Excludos wrote:
On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is".


You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions.


Exactly what kind of education do you guys have? In Norway computer science is an engineering degree on the same line as electrical engineer, biochemistry or machine engineers. It requires semi decent grades and quite a bit of math, physics, a bit of chemistry, and a few other general subjects. A for-loop is literally what you learn at first week, and you finish the third year by spending the last 6 months programming a fully functioning program and a full thesis to go along with it. I would have suspected that most of the world operates like this? If so there is simply no way you don't know how to do extremely basic things like a loop after graduating.


I thought the same thing until I interviewed people who couldn't write fizzbuzz with cs degrees.


Yea anyone telling you fizz buzz style questions aren't necessary has not done enough interviews, or is at a tiny company that can be very picky about who they interview (or is unaware of a pipeline in front of them that is filtering for people who can't do fizz buzz).


Thats not necessarily true. Different companies have different recruiting schemes.
For example in my company most people are either recommended by present employees or found by headhunters. Then HR vet them for their experience, salary expectation and etc. And only after that they have interview with technical staff. We dont ask fizzbuzz questions at any point.
Even for junior positions.
For junior testers You get some (simple) program and requirements are told to find as many bugs as possible.
For junior developers there are some simple tasks/questions depending on the technology but no fizzbuzz.
And besides tasks there is always a converastion. Every candidate gets hhis chance.
And we are by no means small company. Granted they might do things differently in other locations, but thats how it is done in our polish location.

I do get what You are saying, there are tech companies in my town that do things this way. They invite a hell lot of people throw fizzbuzz/lanaguage standarized tests at them and invite selct few with best results to interview. You can do things this way. But it is not the only way.
Pathetic Greta hater.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17970 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 09:00:20
November 29 2017 08:59 GMT
#18424
On November 29 2017 17:54 Silvanel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 15:25 phar wrote:
On November 29 2017 08:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On November 29 2017 08:05 Excludos wrote:
On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is".


You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions.


Exactly what kind of education do you guys have? In Norway computer science is an engineering degree on the same line as electrical engineer, biochemistry or machine engineers. It requires semi decent grades and quite a bit of math, physics, a bit of chemistry, and a few other general subjects. A for-loop is literally what you learn at first week, and you finish the third year by spending the last 6 months programming a fully functioning program and a full thesis to go along with it. I would have suspected that most of the world operates like this? If so there is simply no way you don't know how to do extremely basic things like a loop after graduating.


I thought the same thing until I interviewed people who couldn't write fizzbuzz with cs degrees.


Yea anyone telling you fizz buzz style questions aren't necessary has not done enough interviews, or is at a tiny company that can be very picky about who they interview (or is unaware of a pipeline in front of them that is filtering for people who can't do fizz buzz).


Thats not necessarily true. Different companies have different recruiting schemes.
For example in my company most people are either recommended by present employees or found by headhunters. Then HR vet them for their experience, salary expectation and etc. And only after that they have interview with technical staff. We dont ask fizzbuzz questions at any point.
Even for junior positions.
For junior testers You get some (simple) program and requirements are told to find as many bugs as possible.
For junior developers there are some simple tasks/questions depending on the technology but no fizzbuzz.
And besides tasks there is always a converastion. Every candidate gets hhis chance.
And we are by no means small company. Granted they might do things differently in other locations, but thats how it is done in our polish location.

Fizzbuzz is being used as a catch-all for "simple programming tasks", which you do. In fact, I'd argue that hunting bugs in someone else's deliberately crappy code is worse than programming a fizzbuzz algorithm from scratch. Both in terms of difficulty and in terms of what you can learn from it about the applicant.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4725 Posts
November 29 2017 09:12 GMT
#18425
Well sure You can argue. But You misunderstood me. I didnt say anything about looking at some crappy code. You have static analysis tools, unit tests and reviewers for that. I am talking about finding bugs in a working program, not code.

And regarding fizzbuzz usage, someone above mentiond "for" loop and in contrast to that i want to clarify that we do not consider writing a for loop "simple programming task".
Pathetic Greta hater.
Hanh
Profile Joined June 2016
146 Posts
November 29 2017 09:51 GMT
#18426
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Doing a fast matrix multiplication is mostly about optimizing register/cache usage. The bottleneck isn't the CPU unless you use 'special tactics'.

Khalum
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria831 Posts
November 29 2017 10:26 GMT
#18427
On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
[..]
Another reason why live programming isn't very helpful. Not only does a person need to program, he needs to be able to learn. And that means googling..a lot. On my first job out of college I literally had to learn the entirety of Qt library, a third party SDK [..]


If you used 'literally' correctly you might be the only person on the planet who knows the entirety of Qt by heart.
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 10:38:58
November 29 2017 10:38 GMT
#18428
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 29 2017 10:49 GMT
#18429
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 10:52:24
November 29 2017 10:51 GMT
#18430
On November 29 2017 19:49 mahrgell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.


Ah my bad, I thought Travis was talking about 100k x 100k. So yeah, what Acrofales said 1mil is nothing.

edit: run time is 0.021 seconds on my system.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8046 Posts
November 29 2017 12:15 GMT
#18431
On November 29 2017 19:26 Khalum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
[..]
Another reason why live programming isn't very helpful. Not only does a person need to program, he needs to be able to learn. And that means googling..a lot. On my first job out of college I literally had to learn the entirety of Qt library, a third party SDK [..]


If you used 'literally' correctly you might be the only person on the planet who knows the entirety of Qt by heart.


Hahaha. Touché. No, I, like most others, google everything I need when I need it I guess the correct word here should have been "figuratively".
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 12:30:56
November 29 2017 12:27 GMT
#18432
On November 29 2017 19:51 emperorchampion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 19:49 mahrgell wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.


Ah my bad, I thought Travis was talking about 100k x 100k. So yeah, what Acrofales said 1mil is nothing.

edit: run time is 0.021 seconds on my system.


my bad guy's, it was late
mahgrell's intuition was right, I meant that it was n*n "elements"


so based on what's been said, I am guessing that a million x million is probably out of the realm of all but a few computers out there, unless you do something like use linked lists to represent your matrix?
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 12:47:18
November 29 2017 12:44 GMT
#18433
On November 29 2017 21:27 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 19:51 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:49 mahrgell wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.


Ah my bad, I thought Travis was talking about 100k x 100k. So yeah, what Acrofales said 1mil is nothing.

edit: run time is 0.021 seconds on my system.


my bad guy's, it was late
mahgrell's intuition was right, I meant that it was n*n "elements"


so based on what's been said, I am guessing that a million x million is probably out of the realm of all but a few computers out there, unless you do something like use linked lists to represent your matrix?


Anecdotally, I believe there are groups at my school that run ~100 million (100 mil x 100 mil) DOF simulations modeling blood flow around the heart or something at the Swiss computing center (3rd fastest according to top500). But I'm not really sure on the details. I believe you're are getting into super computing territory at around 1 mil.

edit: unless you have 8000 GB of ram lying around...

edit2: I suppose the simulations are sparse, so I'm not sure about a dense matrix. Pretty sure it will be memory limited though, the actual execution time would probably not be excessively long.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 29 2017 12:48 GMT
#18434
On November 29 2017 21:27 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 19:51 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:49 mahrgell wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.


Ah my bad, I thought Travis was talking about 100k x 100k. So yeah, what Acrofales said 1mil is nothing.

edit: run time is 0.021 seconds on my system.


my bad guy's, it was late
mahgrell's intuition was right, I meant that it was n*n "elements"


so based on what's been said, I am guessing that a million x million is probably out of the realm of all but a few computers out there, unless you do something like use linked lists to represent your matrix?


On most applications where this would be needed, there are mathematical methods to somehow circumvent the problem.
Usually this entails creating more (and sometimes bigger) sparse matrices.

Like in the stuff I'm currently working on, if you just read it directly there are some multiplications M*v, with M being a dense multimillion*multimillion matrix.
But then you can represent M as a product of about 10 matrices, which are all sparse. So instead of calculating M, you take v and multiply it through those 10 matrices from the right, step by step, every time you want to calculate M*v. So you have 10 matrix-vector multiplications, with all matrices being sparse.

The whole issue becomes a bit more difficult, as there are some inverted matrices in between, which again cant be inverted with traditional means in any reasonable time, and the entire process is spread out over a cluster, but in the end everything is done in a way, that you absolutely never ever have to handle large dense matrices in one place.

And this is a huge field of mathematics/numerics which only cares about finding such solutions for all kinds of tasks.
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 12:59:12
November 29 2017 12:55 GMT
#18435
On November 29 2017 21:48 mahrgell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 21:27 travis wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:51 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:49 mahrgell wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.


Ah my bad, I thought Travis was talking about 100k x 100k. So yeah, what Acrofales said 1mil is nothing.

edit: run time is 0.021 seconds on my system.


my bad guy's, it was late
mahgrell's intuition was right, I meant that it was n*n "elements"


so based on what's been said, I am guessing that a million x million is probably out of the realm of all but a few computers out there, unless you do something like use linked lists to represent your matrix?


On most applications where this would be needed, there are mathematical methods to somehow circumvent the problem.
Usually this entails creating more (and sometimes bigger) sparse matrices.

Like in the stuff I'm currently working on, if you just read it directly there are some multiplications M*v, with M being a dense multimillion*multimillion matrix.
But then you can represent M as a product of about 10 matrices, which are all sparse. So instead of calculating M, you take v and multiply it through those 10 matrices from the right, step by step, every time you want to calculate M*v. So you have 10 matrix-vector multiplications, with all matrices being sparse.

The whole issue becomes a bit more difficult, as there are some inverted matrices in between, which again cant be inverted with traditional means in any reasonable time, and the entire process is spread out over a cluster, but in the end everything is done in a way, that you absolutely never ever have to handle large dense matrices in one place.

And this is a huge field of mathematics/numerics which only cares about finding such solutions for all kinds of tasks.


Do you have a nice paper for this mahrgell?

Also, if I understand correctly, naively you would have to do this process n (n = something million) times if you want to square M?
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
November 29 2017 13:02 GMT
#18436
One last thing, if you use single precision, 100 k is feasible on a desktop in a naive manner (memory req is around 40 GB on Matlab).
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 29 2017 13:32 GMT
#18437
On November 29 2017 21:55 emperorchampion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 21:48 mahrgell wrote:
On November 29 2017 21:27 travis wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:51 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:49 mahrgell wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.


Ah my bad, I thought Travis was talking about 100k x 100k. So yeah, what Acrofales said 1mil is nothing.

edit: run time is 0.021 seconds on my system.


my bad guy's, it was late
mahgrell's intuition was right, I meant that it was n*n "elements"


so based on what's been said, I am guessing that a million x million is probably out of the realm of all but a few computers out there, unless you do something like use linked lists to represent your matrix?


On most applications where this would be needed, there are mathematical methods to somehow circumvent the problem.
Usually this entails creating more (and sometimes bigger) sparse matrices.

Like in the stuff I'm currently working on, if you just read it directly there are some multiplications M*v, with M being a dense multimillion*multimillion matrix.
But then you can represent M as a product of about 10 matrices, which are all sparse. So instead of calculating M, you take v and multiply it through those 10 matrices from the right, step by step, every time you want to calculate M*v. So you have 10 matrix-vector multiplications, with all matrices being sparse.

The whole issue becomes a bit more difficult, as there are some inverted matrices in between, which again cant be inverted with traditional means in any reasonable time, and the entire process is spread out over a cluster, but in the end everything is done in a way, that you absolutely never ever have to handle large dense matrices in one place.

And this is a huge field of mathematics/numerics which only cares about finding such solutions for all kinds of tasks.


Do you have a nice paper for this mahrgell?

Also, if I understand correctly, naively you would have to do this process n (n = something million) times if you want to square M?


The process I described shouldn't be used to square matrices.

But what would be very similar to what I described was, if you had something like r=M*M*v, that instead you would calculate v1 = Mv, r = M*v. This would massively reduce the number of required operations, even if you do this a fair number of times in your code. But even that would probably blow up in your face, so in a more serious approach, you would try to completely disassemble M and somehow split it up in bits that are easier to handle.

The point was, that in most cases you really are not interested in the result of M*M itself or whatever massive operations you are doing. But instead you are just using this as part of other calculations. So now the task is to find ways, how to do those calculations in ways that you don't have to calculate those massive operations.

And often those pathes are longer, more difficult and require significant work. But in the end they are still faster.


About the paper: I don't have any free links for it, but what I'm working on is a cluster implementation of FETI-DP, for which you can find some free papers. But those papers are all targeted at mathematicians (who can code).
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8046 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 17:14:43
November 29 2017 17:11 GMT
#18438
On November 29 2017 21:27 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 19:51 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:49 mahrgell wrote:
On November 29 2017 19:38 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 29 2017 15:42 Acrofales wrote:
100k?

And the only operation is squaring? Couple of seconds at most, probably less if you use the right tools (e.g. Matlab): modern personal computers can do a couple of gflops, or a few billion floating point calculations per second. Memory isn't a problem: squaring you only need a single row and column at a time. But even if you needed to store the entire matrix three times, and the matrix contains doubles, you're still only up to 2.4 mb of memory.

1million is still not a problem. Remember: matrix multiplication is O(n^3) with n row/column length.

Anyway, just run some tests! Generate large matrices with random data and multiply them. You'll quickly see what your computer can handle.


Checked with:

A = rand(n, n);
tic;
A = A * A;
toc

n = 100k takes 74.5 GB (n = 1mil is 7450 GB). As Hanh said, you will need to have some algorithm that minimizes the communication time between the memory levels since likely at that level you'll be having to store on the hard drive (SSD).

FYI I ran n = 10k, took 9.323 seconds on my desktop.


They talked about n elements of the matrix. At least the initial post did. Not about n*n elements.
But sure, 10 billion entries blow up your memory.


Ah my bad, I thought Travis was talking about 100k x 100k. So yeah, what Acrofales said 1mil is nothing.

edit: run time is 0.021 seconds on my system.


my bad guy's, it was late
mahgrell's intuition was right, I meant that it was n*n "elements"


so based on what's been said, I am guessing that a million x million is probably out of the realm of all but a few computers out there, unless you do something like use linked lists to represent your matrix?


I was about to say "100k isn't that bad". But 100k x 100k would indeed take up something like half an hour if you even have enough memory to hold it all (Unsure if Matlab lets you do it without enough memory. It might have some kind of semi-smart solution for cases like these).

1m x 1m on the other hand is pretty much impossible on normal systems indeed. But what exactly are you attempting to do here? Is it possible to compress these numbers in any way?

edit: I don't know what university you're at, but some of them do have supercomputers which might be used for good reasons. Their runtime is somewhat expensive tho, so you'd need a really good one, and not just "I'm kinda curious".
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-29 19:22:31
November 29 2017 18:35 GMT
#18439
Do you guys fail logic tests and/or programming tests which ask you to write code which you're unlikely to use at work/in real life? For example, I was told to write code for an MxM matrix. It's artificially split into layers. Here's an example:

1 1 1 1
1 2 2 1
1 2 2 1
1 1 1 1

Outer layer starts with one. The deeper you dig the higher the number which is 2 in this case. Matrix can be from 1x1 to 9x9 or 100x100. I can't remember exactly. I had to take matrix input and validate if each layer has the expected number.

Also, if you have 1x1 and 2x2 matrix, then they only have an outer layer.

Overall test had to take 1 hour and 30 minutes. It was split into 3 categories - logic questions, SQL questions (8.6/9.0 here) and 2 programming questions. I just think this matrix stuff alone is so time-consuming that it will fuck up your remaining time anyway. Or, is it just me who is being silly?

Personally, it was very easy for me to understand what this matrix question was about. Programming isn't my weakness overall, but coming up with an algorithm/helper functions to check inner layers proved to be the more difficult task. Do you have any suggestions what to read/do so I can become better at tricky stuff like that?

Edit: Fixed matrix because example was wrong.
Artesimo
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany546 Posts
November 29 2017 19:17 GMT
#18440
On November 29 2017 11:43 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2017 04:33 sc-darkness wrote:
When you see syntax like that, calling C disgusting is a mild insult. You can write much more readable code in C++ (hint: std::function). Luckily, I never had to have an array of function pointers.


I'd take C over C++ any day. C++ is like the ugliest widespread language out there.



You wanna fight me IRL or what?
Prev 1 920 921 922 923 924 1031 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 18m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 200
JuggernautJason126
ProTech83
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2558
Dewaltoss 124
ZZZero.O 96
NaDa 20
Shine 15
MaD[AoV]4
Dota 2
capcasts128
NeuroSwarm29
League of Legends
JimRising 621
Counter-Strike
flusha732
Foxcn270
taco 173
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu538
Other Games
summit1g6638
Grubby4157
tarik_tv3010
FrodaN1662
fl0m853
ZombieGrub223
Pyrionflax164
ViBE122
Sick66
PPMD27
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV43
StarCraft 2
angryscii 24
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 67
• davetesta45
• LUISG 16
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21343
League of Legends
• Doublelift5156
• Jankos3028
Other Games
• Scarra1333
• imaqtpie798
• Shiphtur295
Upcoming Events
Korean StarCraft League
5h 18m
CranKy Ducklings
12h 18m
RSL Revival
12h 18m
ByuN vs Cham
herO vs Reynor
FEL
18h 18m
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
1d 14h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 20h
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.