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On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well.
Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". I had a run in January where I applied for a bunch of jobs and needed to do 4 of these tests. 3 of them was so easy I finished them in half of the allotted time, and the last one was so damn badly explained I couldn't understand how to even get the input they were suppose to provide, so I just ended up winging it and, according to them, failed because my "score" wasn't high enough. Honestly seemed like they didn't even bother looking at the code itself. And none of them had the remotest connection to the jobs I actually applied for.
Yes, codewar type challenges can be fun, but they don't provide any reasonable idea of how someone actually functions in a job.
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On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is".
If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method.
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On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method.
How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry.
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Fucking C could be so ugly. One of the questions was asking about what a line means. To me it looked like:
Array of N function pointers (this is already crazy). Each of these function pointers points to a function with 2 parameters.
Parameter 1: Another function pointer
Parameter 2: integer
When you see syntax like that, calling C disgusting is a mild insult. You can write much more readable code in C++ (hint: std::function). Luckily, I never had to have an array of function pointers.
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On November 29 2017 04:33 sc-darkness wrote:
Fucking C could be so ugly. One of the questions was asking about what a line means. To me it looked like:
- Array of N function pointers (this is already crazy). Each of these function pointers point to a function with 2 parameters.
a) Parameter 1: Another function pointer
b) Parameter 2: integer
When you see syntax like calling C disgusting is a mild insult. You can write much more readable code in C++ (hint: std::function).
And just to echo what I said earlier: completely irrelevant to whatever your job is going to be. People strive to write readable code. Yes, you can be a dick if you really want to (look up c trigraph if you want completely unreadable code..granted that's being removed in c++17), but people will get annoyed real quick if you do. Testing people on something they're unlikely to come across is not a good indication for how well you'll be able to do you job.
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Yes, in this case it's not very relevant. I suppose they're interested in how I think logically. Either way, it's always a great pleasure for me to purify C code by turning it into C++. C is just... bad in 2017, especially how it's used by some C developers with all the little hacks they rely on. I think it was a great language at the time though. It's just that C++11 and C++14 are great.
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On November 29 2017 04:05 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method. How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry.
Sure, but how do I know if you wrote the code in your portfolio or if you just copy pasted it from the internet? We have people interview for entry positions all the time with cs degrees who cannot write basic programs or perform string manipulations. I can spend 5 minutes of my time getting you to write fizzbuzz or I can read your github portfolio and try to understand code you might not have even written. I know which one is more efficient use of my time, even if you're never going to write fizzbuzz or anything remotely close to it on the job.
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I’m pretty sure welders and carpenters need to demonstrate some basic competency. Programming is much more advanced than other companies in my opinion because there seems to be this cultural drive to improve efficiency, do things better, etc. that other industries don’t have. If you apply as a structural engineer I’m pretty sure they will ask you to solve some basic questions to make sure you understand the fundamentals.
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On November 29 2017 06:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 04:05 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method. How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry. Sure, but how do I know if you wrote the code in your portfolio or if you just copy pasted it from the internet? We have people interview for entry positions all the time with cs degrees who cannot write basic programs or perform string manipulations. I can spend 5 minutes of my time getting you to write fizzbuzz or I can read your github portfolio and try to understand code you might not have even written. I know which one is more efficient use of my time, even if you're never going to write fizzbuzz or anything remotely close to it on the job.
How do we know the artist actually painted those things in his/her portfolio? Again, this is not a thing in any other field.
And no, having someone write fizzbuzz is a rubbish representation of how good they might or might not be. You are literally wasting your and your potential employees time.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 29 2017 06:29 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 06:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 04:05 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method. How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry. Sure, but how do I know if you wrote the code in your portfolio or if you just copy pasted it from the internet? We have people interview for entry positions all the time with cs degrees who cannot write basic programs or perform string manipulations. I can spend 5 minutes of my time getting you to write fizzbuzz or I can read your github portfolio and try to understand code you might not have even written. I know which one is more efficient use of my time, even if you're never going to write fizzbuzz or anything remotely close to it on the job. How do we know the artist actually painted those things in his/her portfolio? Again, this is not a thing in any other field. And no, having someone write fizzbuzz is a rubbish representation of how good they might or might not be. You are literally wasting your and your potential employees time.
Artists do art-tests all the time when applying for jobs, as I understand it. I've seen a fair few complaints about those as well tho.
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On November 29 2017 06:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 04:05 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method. How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry. Sure, but how do I know if you wrote the code in your portfolio or if you just copy pasted it from the internet? We have people interview for entry positions all the time with cs degrees who cannot write basic programs or perform string manipulations. I can spend 5 minutes of my time getting you to write fizzbuzz or I can read your github portfolio and try to understand code you might not have even written. I know which one is more efficient use of my time, even if you're never going to write fizzbuzz or anything remotely close to it on the job.
Don't we all copy code from the internet though? The point is to understand what you're doing.  Not just "copy/paste".
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On November 29 2017 06:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 06:29 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 06:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 04:05 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method. How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry. Sure, but how do I know if you wrote the code in your portfolio or if you just copy pasted it from the internet? We have people interview for entry positions all the time with cs degrees who cannot write basic programs or perform string manipulations. I can spend 5 minutes of my time getting you to write fizzbuzz or I can read your github portfolio and try to understand code you might not have even written. I know which one is more efficient use of my time, even if you're never going to write fizzbuzz or anything remotely close to it on the job. How do we know the artist actually painted those things in his/her portfolio? Again, this is not a thing in any other field. And no, having someone write fizzbuzz is a rubbish representation of how good they might or might not be. You are literally wasting your and your potential employees time. Artists do art-tests all the time when applying for jobs, as I understand it. I've seen a fair few complaints about those as well tho.
That honestly sounds even worse. Unless you're applying for a speed drawing job, you can't really judge a talent by whatever small allotted time you're giving them (You can perhaps see that they're good at sketching I guess?)
On November 29 2017 06:37 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 06:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 04:05 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method. How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry. Sure, but how do I know if you wrote the code in your portfolio or if you just copy pasted it from the internet? We have people interview for entry positions all the time with cs degrees who cannot write basic programs or perform string manipulations. I can spend 5 minutes of my time getting you to write fizzbuzz or I can read your github portfolio and try to understand code you might not have even written. I know which one is more efficient use of my time, even if you're never going to write fizzbuzz or anything remotely close to it on the job. Don't we all copy code from the internet though? The point is to understand what you're doing. Not just "copy/paste".
Another reason why live programming isn't very helpful. Not only does a person need to program, he needs to be able to learn. And that means googling..a lot. On my first job out of college I literally had to learn the entirety of Qt library, a third party SDK I'm not allowed to speak about involving 3d programming, opencv, opengl and a variety of other things from scratch. If I had been tested on any of that, there is no way I would have passed. They seemed decently happy with me nonetheless.
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is".
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On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is".
You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions.
On November 29 2017 06:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 06:29 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 06:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 04:05 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 03:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 02:40 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 02:31 sc-darkness wrote:
I'd applied for a C++ job and I got test questions. Guess what! ANSI C questions instead. Yay! :D
I can manage it, it's just not expected. I feel way more comfortable with C++ though. I'm going to tell recruiter that as well. Honestly I just don't get why people still bother with these tests. They show exactly nothing of what you're capable of beyond the basic "Yes, I know what a for loop is". If you've got a better way to test candidates that doesn't involve a developer spending 10 hours interviewing every candidate I'm sure the industry would switch to your better method. How do you test candidates in other fields? Does welders have to weld a beam before they get accepted? Do carpenters have to build a house in the interview? You don't have to test candidates because it's completely unnecessary. If they are straight from school you already know what they're capabilities are going to be, and if they're not then you know what they've been working on before. CVs and portfolios are much better ways to determine if someone is useful or not. Its how it works in the rest of the entire work industry. Sure, but how do I know if you wrote the code in your portfolio or if you just copy pasted it from the internet? We have people interview for entry positions all the time with cs degrees who cannot write basic programs or perform string manipulations. I can spend 5 minutes of my time getting you to write fizzbuzz or I can read your github portfolio and try to understand code you might not have even written. I know which one is more efficient use of my time, even if you're never going to write fizzbuzz or anything remotely close to it on the job. How do we know the artist actually painted those things in his/her portfolio? Again, this is not a thing in any other field. And no, having someone write fizzbuzz is a rubbish representation of how good they might or might not be. You are literally wasting your and your potential employees time. Artists do art-tests all the time when applying for jobs, as I understand it. I've seen a fair few complaints about those as well tho.
If you ask people in the software engineering field if the interview processes are good, then I suspect almost all of them will tell you no. It's kinda like democracy where there are huge flaws in the system, but until we come up with something better this is what we've got and it functions better than other options.
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On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is". You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions.
I can just confirm that I've been tested on this fizzbuzz stuff when I was a graduate software engineer in the UK. It seems to be worldwide judging by what you say.
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On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is". You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions.
Exactly what kind of education do you guys have? In Norway computer science is an engineering degree on the same line as electrical engineer, biochemistry or machine engineers. It requires semi decent grades and quite a bit of math, physics, a bit of chemistry, and a few other general subjects. A for-loop is literally what you learn at first week, and you finish the third year by spending the last 6 months programming a fully functioning program and a full thesis to go along with it. I would have suspected that most of the world operates like this? If so there is simply no way you don't know how to do extremely basic things like a loop after graduating.
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On November 29 2017 08:05 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is". You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions. Exactly what kind of education do you guys have? In Norway computer science is an engineering degree on the same line as electrical engineer, biochemistry or machine engineers. It requires semi decent grades and quite a bit of math, physics, a bit of chemistry, and a few other general subjects. A for-loop is literally what you learn at first week, and you finish the third year by spending the last 6 months programming a fully functioning program and a full thesis to go along with it. I would have suspected that most of the world operates like this? If so there is simply no way you don't know how to do extremely basic things like a loop after graduating.
I thought the same thing until I interviewed people who couldn't write fizzbuzz with cs degrees.
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On November 29 2017 08:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 08:05 Excludos wrote:On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is". You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions. Exactly what kind of education do you guys have? In Norway computer science is an engineering degree on the same line as electrical engineer, biochemistry or machine engineers. It requires semi decent grades and quite a bit of math, physics, a bit of chemistry, and a few other general subjects. A for-loop is literally what you learn at first week, and you finish the third year by spending the last 6 months programming a fully functioning program and a full thesis to go along with it. I would have suspected that most of the world operates like this? If so there is simply no way you don't know how to do extremely basic things like a loop after graduating. I thought the same thing until I interviewed people who couldn't write fizzbuzz with cs degrees.
Good for us maybe? :D Less people in industry - more demand and money.
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On November 29 2017 08:05 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is". You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions. Exactly what kind of education do you guys have? In Norway computer science is an engineering degree on the same line as electrical engineer, biochemistry or machine engineers. It requires semi decent grades and quite a bit of math, physics, a bit of chemistry, and a few other general subjects. A for-loop is literally what you learn at first week, and you finish the third year by spending the last 6 months programming a fully functioning program and a full thesis to go along with it. I would have suspected that most of the world operates like this? If so there is simply no way you don't know how to do extremely basic things like a loop after graduating.
Given the appalling level of some of my students, a university education is not a guarantee that they can code. I'm somewhat surprised some of them can tie their shoelaces on their own...
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On November 29 2017 04:33 sc-darkness wrote:
When you see syntax like that, calling C disgusting is a mild insult. You can write much more readable code in C++ (hint: std::function). Luckily, I never had to have an array of function pointers.
I'd take C over C++ any day. C++ is like the ugliest widespread language out there.
On November 29 2017 08:05 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 07:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 29 2017 07:15 Excludos wrote:
You can't expect someone to know of every possible scenario they might come across. And if you can't test for that, all you can really test for is a super easy fizzbuzz function, which tells you exactly nothing about a person beyond "He does indeed know what a for loop is". You keep harping on this, but that is exactly what we're testing for. What percentage of candidates do you think we interview that can not write fizzbuzz? We do this for our interns and our entry/newgrad level positions. Exactly what kind of education do you guys have?
I've got bachelor's in sociology 
Anyway, I find fizzbuzz at interviews to be fine. It immediately weeds out people who absolutely should not look for a job in programming, gives little trouble to new people who haven't come across it before (it's rather easy, just a matter of using most basic stuff and thinking about it) and no trouble at all for anyone who's either seen it or has some experience under their belt.
I'm slowly approaching a point where I might just leave out of the interview if they start asking me technical questions, but I know it's they're job and a lot of strange things happen. For example, we interviewed a girl with 8 years of experience in PHP under her belt. She knew she was writing code in Zend Framework, but didn't even know which version...
Also, there's plenty of people who just come to work, clock in their hours by doing the bare minimum and never go beyond that. You don't want such people in your company, they're just drones without ability to learn.
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How long would it take someone using an appropriate algorithm to square a dense 100,000 element matrix using a typical modern PC? Is it even possible with ~8gb of ram? Like, are there algorithms that partition the matrices into smaller matrices, or compilers that handle matrices in a way that all the elements won't need to be in memory at once?
I am asking in terms of actual minutes passed. Just an estimation of course.
And if it is possible, what about 1,000,000 element matrix squared?
If these things aren't possible, what kind of specs would I need to multiply matrices these large? Would my university be likely to have such computers?
Probably difficult questions, but i'll be happy if someone has any clue.
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EPT
