UPDATE: I've already purchased a Samsung R480. It was $600 comes with Blu-Ray and Core i3. 4GB RAM. it runs well and so far i've been very happy with it. Could a mod please lock/close this? or it can just turn it into a buying a laptop discussion thread. Thank you for all the replies!!!
Okay first off. Do not just blow me off as some jackass trying to start an argument.
Here's my issue. I'm heading off to university and going to get a laptop. I would like to be versatile, easy-to-use and as convenient as possible. So here is the debate. Mac or PC? I will be studying Mathematics/Chartered Accountancy program, 5 years 1 BMath and Masters in Accounting and a CA designation. I know there is programming and the software is DrScheme. I am not a hardcore gamer i prefer talking to friends, playing sports.
Most of my friends are all yelling "PCs SUCK" , "They crash on me". Of course they all have shiny iPods. (I used to have one till it somehow fell out of my pocket in the airport). So EVERYBODY (about 3 in 4) are buying Macs, Macbook pros. (i live in a city where mummy and daddy buy you stuff). Probably why Apple is now the second largest company on the S&P 500 after Exxon Mobile according to the finance thing i read the other day.
Mac's have this elite "once you buy a mac you never go back" slogan which i keep hearing. I am coming into this debate on BOTH sides. I've actually written this on my Macbook and also use a PC regularly.
Everything i've come up with is for the 2007-08 Macbook. The PC stuff is from my bro running his lenovo and HP computer, also our XP desktop which is still running BW great and SCII fine. great for day to day usage
This is what i came up with for Macs
Pros: Decently fast startup Good support (if you drive to the apple store) Looks cool, you get to be trendy and fashionable? User Friendly Great battery life
Cons: Processing power (I cant run iTunes, Safari, Msn together) **NOTE** People seem to have an issue with my arguement, i honestly try to watch youtube talk on msn and have itunes as well as limewire to download music and it freezes up. im not sure why maybe ill take it into the apple store ** Awful heating problems because its all one big case Crazy fan (if i run a flash game the mac sounds like its taking off a runway) Awful compatibility Expensive
From my limited knowledge of PC laptops (i dont have one myself however many other people i know are running them)
Pros Also fast (Windows 7) Very compatible Cheap Great graphics and gaming Google for any fix related to software
Cons: Awful tech support for hardware issues (try calling HP) Bad battery life
So bottom line what should i get? Can TL help me?
Also if your answer is PC could you give me some suggestions under $1000 please?
Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
I was in the exact same situation as you (going to college, everyones moms buying them 2000$ macbooks) two years ago.
Got my custom sager laptop @ xoticpc.com and am soooooooo fucking glad i did. I got a better screen, processor, graphics card, i can actually play games, memory (which i can upgrade if i want, unlike macs), and hdmi all for like 1/2 - 2/3 the price. At least once a week my roomate for the last two years would say "fuck why did i get a mac" I will say that it is lighter(prob because its 2 inches smaller screenwise) and has a MUCH better battery/trackpad.
IMO there's no reason to go with a mac over pc unless you a) Shit money every morning when you wake up b) have some specific use for it c) are very trendy and hip
What i would do and plan to do by the end of this summer is build a sick desktop for 600-800 and get a netbook for 100-200.
For gaming you can't beat a windows computer (I'm not calling them pc's because macs are pcs too)
Windows laptops generally have worse battery life because they have faster (and thus more power consuming) processors and graphics cards.
As far as tech support is considered; if you buy a computer from a retail store and buy their warranty it usually isnt so bad. Long term it will be much more expensive to fix a mac because there are less people that can do it. Most brick and mortar stores will not service them or will service them at a premium.
Mac compatability is horrendous. And things that work with mac still don't run as well as they do in windows (read the mac client complaints from people previously using bootcamp)
I use a macbook and have a Windows computer i built myself and spend 90% of my time using Windows but its nice to have one of each.
TL;dr if its a primary computer i'd get something with windows.
On June 07 2010 12:11 decafchicken wrote: I was in the exact same situation as you (going to college, everyones moms buying them 2000$ macbooks) two years ago.
Got my custom sager laptop @ xoticpc.com and am soooooooo fucking glad i did. I got a better screen, processor, graphics card, i can actually play games, memory (which i can upgrade if i want, unlike macs), and hdmi all for like 1/2 - 2/3 the price. At least once a week my roomate for the last two years would say "fuck why did i get a mac" I will say that it is lighter(prob because its 2 inches smaller screenwise) and has a MUCH better battery/trackpad.
IMO there's no reason to go with a mac over pc unless you a) Shit money every morning when you wake up b) have some specific use for it c) are very trendy and hip
What i would do and plan to do by the end of this summer is build a sick desktop for 600-800 and get a netbook for 100-200.
gaming pc and netbook in one. can play sc2 in a pinch if you don't mind the 11 inch screen and is portable as fuck for how powerful it is.
I live in a town where people park BMW 5s and 7s outside because the maserati and ferrari are inside and they dont wanna get a bigger house because they like the "neighbourhood"
A lot of students can get discounts on Macs, so that might make it worth it. I'd personally prefer a PC, but if the Mac price is cut for some reason then it may very well be worth it.
On June 07 2010 12:09 sob3k wrote: Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
PC's have awful battery life compared to macs you must plug it in often. i plan to use my pc for over a year. after 1 year PC's need to recharged every 2 hours. macs last 5-6 after a year
im not a tech tard im saying the tech support is awful when you need your PC itself fixed. not the software
Meh, my parents got me a mac for college. Honestly, I don't like it any better or worse than I would've liked a windows. As a result, I'd say stick with windows since macs are way more expensive. Also, I have to dual-boot to play starcraft which is kind of a pain sometimes. (You can install bw on mac, but there is a lag between clicking and the computer responding which is really annoying. Also, no anti-hack.)
I'd give you suggestions, but I don't really know anything at all about computers; just that macs are way more expensive and not that much better.
On June 07 2010 12:04 Mykill wrote: This is what i came up with for Macs
Pros: Decently fast startup Good support (if you drive to the apple store) Looks cool User Friendly Great battery life
Cons: Processing power (I cant run iTunes, Safari, Msn together) Awful heating problems because its all one big case Crazy fan (if i run a flash game the mac sounds like its taking off a runway) Awful compatibility Expensive
From my limited knowledge of PC laptops ( i dont have one)
Pros Also fast (Windows 7) Very compatible Cheap Great graphics and gaming
Cons: Awful tech support (try calling HP) Bad battery life
eh, the user friendlyness of macs depends on the individual. i started using a pc and never thought it was difficult to navigate or get stuff done. i've used macs a couple times (my friends') and i didn't like it (well i'm used to using a pc). but they like using macs. this is something you have to decide if you're deciding between mac and pc.
battery life - i dunno much about macs, but my dell laptop has around 5-6 hours on max performance and around 7 or 8 hours on power saver; it has a 9v battery. i just use this in my room, around campus, and in class sometimes and i've never had it die on me in a place without an outlet.
looks cool - meh, personal taste again. i don't really like its look. do YOU think it looks cool?
based on these and the cons you listed for macs, i don't see why you wouldn't want a pc over a mac.
On June 07 2010 12:15 Melancholia wrote: A lot of students can get discounts on Macs, so that might make it worth it. I'd personally prefer a PC, but if the Mac price is cut for some reason then it may very well be worth it.
I'll throw my hat in for the PC. Mostly because of better compatibility and you also have the ability to actually switch out hardware. In a Mac, if you switch out parts, you void your warranty, and the default macbook parts SUCK... Well they're not as good as a custom PC at least
PCs are cheaper, have better tech support (buy from a good manufacturer!), and also have much more variety. If you care about aesthetic value, then go for a mac by all means. But for serious stuff, I'd stick to PCs (unless you're going into graphic design, but you're not so....)
It depends entirely upon how much you are willing to spend. I would not recommend buying a Macbook Pro that is not 15'' or above.
But as a Macbook Pro user (Using the original 15'' Aluminum body) there are some major complaints I have with the design. Not sure if you will be annoyed with them as well, but here they are:
1. Aluminum Body: Apple markets this as a 'feature' because the aluminum serves as a heatsink (a place where heat gets dumped). No idea why they did it because the laptop still gets extremely hot, and if you try to put it on your lap, it hits 70C or so and becomes very uncomfortable to use. I don't want a heatsink on my lap. 2. Keyboard: The keyboard is absolutely terrible, but I hate 99% of all laptop keyboards so this normally isn't much of an issue. 3. USB 2.0: There are only 2 USB ports. If you are somebody like me who likes to be able to use a mouse and keyboard, you will not be able to connect a printer/flashdrive/etc without disconnecting one, and it gets very annoying very quickly. They are also spaced about 2mm apart which means that the larger USB devices will conflict with each other. 4. Poor battery life: I'm not sure why, but this laptop gets around 3 hours just with browsing the internet and using IRC (not even using music). Not impressive at all to me. This could just be a problem with my Macbook Pro though.
As far as your cons go:
CPU power is not a problem. All of the current macs provide plenty of processing power that will suit your needs easily. Maybe not good for their price range, but they will run programs absolutely fine.
Support has honestly been so-so for me. Last year my HDD died, and after making an appointment with the Apple store, I still had to wait for a long time, and then it took them a week to get my Macbook Pro back to me.
Compatibility is one of the biggest issues with the Mac. You're really stuck with 3rd rate replacements most of the time when it comes to software, and unless you only plan on playing Blizzard games, you will not be able to game at all really.
As for the Pros of the mac (which there are quite a few)
1. Weight: It's actually a fairly light laptop and I like how slim it is. Makes it more portable 2. Visuals: Scoff all you like, but despite the flaws of the functionality, looking at it is a joy (unlike looking at ugly gaming laptops or something). Though ASUS and HP have improved greatly on this front. 3. Mac OS X: This is the biggest pro of the Macbook Pro imo. I honestly believe that Mac OS X is a great OS because while it does have its flaws, most of the most important system properties are easy to access and adjust. Most of the stuff is very straight forward, and unlike Windows, you never have to defrag your hard drive because Mac OS X is very good with HDD management. Though it does not give you as much power as Windows would give you since there are many settings you cannot change (mouse acceleration comes to mind) 4. Charger: I cannot express well enough how awesome the Macbook Pro charger is. There are so many times where I accidently trip over the cord, but it never results in a broken mac because it is comes right off. The magnet thing is one of the most awesome ideas I have ever seen in my life.
I have never really had many problems with my PCs, but I have never actually used Windows 7 extensively so I'll hold back here.
Edit: Another thing I don't like about the Macbook Pro is the connectivity. There is a firewire (largely useless), 2 USB (painfully small amount), Ethernet (obv required), Audio Jack (required), Microphone Jack (useless: disabled automatically by firmware), and a Mini DisplayPort. The biggest problem I have with it is the Mini DisplayPort. Apple expects you to pay $30 for a goddamn DVI-DisplayPort adapter which I find absolutely ridiculous.
And honestly, on a laptop that is so expensive, I would have liked it if Apple had supported USB 3.0 ports (and eSATA too please!) with their new line of Macbook Pros.
The primary difference between a Mac and a PC is that PCs are customizable. They allow you to do a lot of stuff that Macs don't give you the option to. The downside is that you can do stuff to screw up the PC. There's a lot of heat about how PCs crash, blue screen, etc, but these situations all pretty much all created from the user screwing something up. If you simply keep your drivers updated, remove corrupt files, and fix errors, you will rarely ever have any problems.
The advantage of a Mac is that it's restrictive. It restricts the user to a certain number of functionalities tailored towards the common user. At a higher price, a mac user can go on facebook and read email without the worry of screwing things up. If going on facebook and downloading songs onto your ipod is all you do, paying about 1.5 times more for a laptop may or may not be worth it, it's up to you.
In the end, a PC is worth it. If you are getting a lot of crashes or blue screens and you don't know what to do, get a friend from computing science, or make a post on TL and we'll get you fixed. If you end up getting a mac and you have problems, then the only advise we can give you is to get a PC, because there's nothing else you can really do.
Uh, if you get a mac and have problems you generally don't need to go online to find help because you just send it to the Apple store anyways. It's a waste of time trying to diagnose a Mac problem on a forum when you can just send it to the Apple store and get it fixed/new computer...
Also, IBM doesn't sell laptops anymore. They sold their ThinkPad line to Lenovo, and I really would not recommend a ThinkPad. It's an overpriced computer with very limited graphics power at the lower to mid end, and with a very high price tag on the high end.
On June 07 2010 12:09 sob3k wrote: Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
PC's have awful battery life compared to macs you must plug it in often. i plan to use my pc for over a year. after 1 year PC's need to recharged every 2 hours. macs last 5-6 after a year
im not a tech tard im saying the tech support is awful when you need your PC itself fixed. not the software
The battery life generally depends on the quality of the battery, laptop hardware, and your usage habits. You can't just say "pc's have an awful battery life compared to macs." That's wrong. Some laptops will have better batteries than others just like some MacBooks have better batteries than other models of MacBooks.
I really like the macbook pro keyboards 0.o What really made me choose a mac over a pc laptop is the combination of battery life, size, and power. I was unable to find a laptop that had anywhere as long a battery life as this macbook pro 13' that also has as much power. And comeon, the sleek unibody design is just awesome!
Terrible response. First it feels like you didn't press anything, and then all of sudden your finger hits a solid barrier. Very uncomfortable in my opinion, and it's hard to be sure when typing.
I think battery life is fairly overrated, but it's also not so clearly in Apple's favor anymore.
HP, Acer, Lenovo, MSI and Asus all have thin and light series, and are starting to do metal bodies (although no one does a unibody like Apple.) Most of the new lines from all of them can get 5+ hours with switchable graphics (I think Acer Timeline X have the highest rated times of these companies, at around 8~ hours.) Their switchable graphics are also mostly using ATI 5xxx series, instead of Apple's Nvidia stuff. In terms of performance, the ATI cards dominate all of the Nvidia 300 line.
So I don't think weight/thinness are really in Apple's favor anymore, and battery life is only slightly. What still is is the build quality and screen quality. Most of the above mentioned companies are using plastic cases still, that can be iffy. The plus side is that Asus and MSI give fantastic warranties, and both along with Lenovo have great track records. In terms of screen quality, only the Envy line is going to match Apple, and the 14 might actually surpass it (although I can't imagine ever needing a 400nit laptop screen.)
The Envy 14 comes out later this month, and the only real downside is that HP is unreliable. On paper, the laptop should be pretty fantastic, and with the ingenious slice battery (it's a thin tray that attaches to the bottom), it should get something like 14+ hours of battery life if it's really that important to you.
Sony deserves mention too for meeting these criteria, but their prices are absurd too.
On June 07 2010 12:09 sob3k wrote: Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
PC's have awful battery life compared to macs you must plug it in often. i plan to use my pc for over a year. after 1 year PC's need to recharged every 2 hours. macs last 5-6 after a year
im not a tech tard im saying the tech support is awful when you need your PC itself fixed. not the software
This is flat out not true, you talk about PC's like they are one laptop. Macbooks are generally rated to last 7 hours max, you can get an Acer Timeline that lasts 8, and If you really want to go crazy an Asus UL that can go up to 12.
Your post seems to indicate you know very little about computers.
I'm going with a Mac for a few reasons. One of these is that I fell in love with the OSX. There are a lot of little features that make everything feel a lot more efficient. I really like these little features. Like a lot. I feel like the OSX in its basic state works really well for how I like to run things on my computer.
As far as gaming, I'm only planning to play BW, SC2, and probably TF2. Since Steam is coming out for Mac and all, TF2 will work fine without having to Boot Camp. This is another nice feature though, Boot Camp. I enjoy the option of using both operating systems if I so choose.
I'm switching out the HDD to personally install an SSD. All of this is really dang expensive though, to be completely honest. However, I don't mind the high cost if I don't have to replace the computer for another four years or more.
Because of the simplicity that comes with less overall compatibility, customer support is really good. Apple Care is also really good about fixing or replacing stuff that gets damaged. With PCs the customer support is generally poor, and most will have to resort to purchasing new computers or parts on their own to fix the problem. However, if you are a tech-savvy guy and understand the ins-and-outs of PCs well, go for it!
And yeah, with Macs you're generally going to run into less issues like viruses and adware. Macs receive less of these issues because people don't care enough to write viruses for Mac computers. Personally, I really like this fact haha. Makes life easier. Good PC-savvy individuals know well how to avoid these things and how to keep your computer constantly running at great speeds, but if you're not one of those people, you'll likely be subject to your computer noticeably slowing down as you use it more. If you're well educated about these things, though, PCs will probably work just fine for you.
Mac vs PC always comes down to preference (and cost). I could really care less if Macs were a trend, I really like the OSX, simplicity, lack of viruses, and customer support. SC2 and BW have been running fine for me as well, so the gaming department is covered for me. ^^ The hardware works well for what I want, and the SSD is gonna make it even better. Just go with what you like man. Best of luck!
As a Mac and OSX advocate, there is a lot more parity now than there used to be. I appreciate attention to detail, a thoughtful interface and good build quality.
If you can afford it, I say get a Mac, but honestly it's not a huge difference.
I have a mac for school, and I like it for what it does. The benefit that no one really ever talks about is the ability to walk into an apple store with a problem and literally have them give you whatever part you need for free (if you have the apple care, which you should).
That being said, i am going to get a pc to play starcraft and other games on, while keeping the mac for browsing and school stuff.
On June 07 2010 12:09 sob3k wrote: Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
PC's have awful battery life compared to macs you must plug it in often. i plan to use my pc for over a year. after 1 year PC's need to recharged every 2 hours. macs last 5-6 after a year
im not a tech tard im saying the tech support is awful when you need your PC itself fixed. not the software
This is flat out not true, you talk about PC's like they are one laptop. Macbooks are generally rated to last 7 hours max, you can get an Acer Timeline that lasts 8, and If you really want to go crazy an Asus UL that can go up to 12.
Your post seems to indicate you know very little about computers.
And then you realize that both the ASUS UL and the Acer Timeline have pitiful, old 1.3GHz Core 2 CPUs while the Apple laptops are supposedly able to muster 6-7 hours with a much more powerful i5 cpu which can be clocked as high as around 2.53GHz. Not exactly a fair comparison to be honest.
I'm switching out the HDD to personally install an SSD, which cancels out a lot of your Mac cons (processing power, overheating, loud fan). All of this is really dang expensive though, to be completely honest. However, I don't mind the high cost if I don't have to replace the computer for another four years or more.
I have no idea how a SSD cancels out any of those cons. The loud fan is a CPU fan, and the heat is caused by the CPU. Has nothing to do with the HDD at all.
If your budget is around $1k, I think you should be going for a PC - you'd get a lot more power out of that thousand than on a Mac for the same price.
The general thing I hear about Mac is that you pay a pretty large premium (~$200) for the name / design, but that it works very well / looks+feels really nice. If you can afford it and don't mind spending extra for those benefits, then go ahead and get yourself a MBP.
I'm entering my second year of undergraduate right now and I have a ThinkPad T400, which works great and is really sturdy / hasn't given me any problems, so I'd recommend one of those.
Well for pc you can find alot of tech support online, you'd be suprised. And i dunno i find pc to be more flexible and customizable. You really have access to the core of whatever you are running.
On June 07 2010 12:09 sob3k wrote: Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
PC's have awful battery life compared to macs you must plug it in often. i plan to use my pc for over a year. after 1 year PC's need to recharged every 2 hours. macs last 5-6 after a year
im not a tech tard im saying the tech support is awful when you need your PC itself fixed. not the software
This is flat out not true, you talk about PC's like they are one laptop. Macbooks are generally rated to last 7 hours max, you can get an Acer Timeline that lasts 8, and If you really want to go crazy an Asus UL that can go up to 12.
Your post seems to indicate you know very little about computers.
And then you realize that both the ASUS UL and the Acer Timeline have pitiful, old 1.3GHz Core 2 CPUs while the Apple laptops are supposedly able to muster 6-7 hours with a much more powerful i5 cpu which can be clocked as high as around 2.53GHz. Not exactly a fair comparison to be honest.
I'm switching out the HDD to personally install an SSD, which cancels out a lot of your Mac cons (processing power, overheating, loud fan). All of this is really dang expensive though, to be completely honest. However, I don't mind the high cost if I don't have to replace the computer for another four years or more.
I have no idea how a SSD cancels out any of those cons. The loud fan is a CPU fan, and the heat is caused by the CPU. Has nothing to do with the HDD at all.
Ah, I mistakenly confused the CPU fan for the HDD motor. Horrible brain-fart. My apologies! ^^ I shall edit the post so that it no longer causes this confusion.
On June 07 2010 12:09 sob3k wrote: Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
PC's have awful battery life compared to macs you must plug it in often. i plan to use my pc for over a year. after 1 year PC's need to recharged every 2 hours. macs last 5-6 after a year
im not a tech tard im saying the tech support is awful when you need your PC itself fixed. not the software
This is flat out not true, you talk about PC's like they are one laptop. Macbooks are generally rated to last 7 hours max, you can get an Acer Timeline that lasts 8, and If you really want to go crazy an Asus UL that can go up to 12.
Your post seems to indicate you know very little about computers.
And then you realize that both the ASUS UL and the Acer Timeline have pitiful, old 1.3GHz Core 2 CPUs while the Apple laptops are supposedly able to muster 6-7 hours with a much more powerful i5 cpu which can be clocked as high as around 2.53GHz. Not exactly a fair comparison to be honest.
I'm switching out the HDD to personally install an SSD, which cancels out a lot of your Mac cons (processing power, overheating, loud fan). All of this is really dang expensive though, to be completely honest. However, I don't mind the high cost if I don't have to replace the computer for another four years or more.
I have no idea how a SSD cancels out any of those cons. The loud fan is a CPU fan, and the heat is caused by the CPU. Has nothing to do with the HDD at all.
The Timeline X refresh is all i5s. They're already out in Europe, no word on when they come to the states. The main problem is that it's an Acer.
I forget which Asus has the switchable. The MSI is the GE600.
Just curious, can you undervolt Macs?
FWIW, I just ordered an Ideapad Y460. $999 + 10% Bing Cashback (not sure if it works up there) comes to just over $900. When HP releases the Envy 14, they'll probably run something like 25% BCB. The default configuration is $999, but you can probably expect to add at least another $200 getting the nice screen and everything.
The other thing in terms of boot times is that HP and a few other companies are shipping with pre-OS bootloaders which are basically light versions of Linux that load in 10~ seconds and give you access to internet browsing, Skype and a few other basic things, so you don't have to wait for Win 7 to load if you're just doing simple tasks.
PC! if you want to play games, stay away from intel integrated and ati integrated (im not familiar with ati cards) i got a laptop with 4 gb ram, 2.0 ghz processor and a geforce 9600GTM for 1000 with a 3 year STORE WARRANTY, for 1000 a couple years ago (make sure you get store warranty). gets kind of hot playing crysis, lol. if you dont care about games, you can get a pc under 500 or a mac that is the same speed but costs 2000 bucks. cheap laptops these days are pretty fast. i got mine in store (didnt see it online) at staples, so make sure to check online and in stores.
in terms of batteries, a pcs original battery will give u at least 2.5 hours depending on how much of a hog you have, but if i heard some pcs run 7 hours (must be low consumers). and make sure you bargain with the people in store. i got a 50 buck bag with my laptop and a cheaper warranty
well if you don't care much about the price then go for the Macs, but personally i think you can make a better computer under 1000 dollars. If your on a tight budget (im assuming your not) then buy the PC.
It really all depends on how much money you're (or your parents are) willing to spend.
Many moneys => Mac Not so many moneys => PC
I personally dislike how un-customizable Macs are, but they work pretty well for simple work purposes (and the Macbook Pro has a very cool design). If you're planning on doing any sort of gaming, PC.
Obviously if there are certain programs that you need for your college courses, you're probably better off with the PC.
(If you decide to go with a PC laptop, I definitely suggest Lenovo laptops - its insane how much shit they jam into a tinyass laptop)
Mac is only if you have a purpose for it like others are mentioning... From what I know though you probably can get all those tools for your major on PC easily (cause most everything IS made for PC).
Macs, as one of my friends called them, is a Dell on a different OS + much more $$$. Except Dell has the capability of you swapping parts out yourself cause of handy containment methods... Mac you have to go the Apple store.
Macs are so easily broken into (by Hackers). If I used Safari with Mac last year it could be broken into in 10 seconds... This year they had an improvement! To like 1 minute and 20 seconds... and Firefox isn't much better on Mac either (plus it has the memory leak with Flash thingies). Currently the safest way to run is Win 7 with Google chrome without flash, java or any other highly targeted plugin/program. Of course at the college level I highly doubt someone to target you (much more likely to want to target your parents if your parents are the same as your friend's parents), but otherwise don't piss off other people.
Pcs run fine but... Win 7 (and vista) have a huge bug that doesn't allow for Recovery of the Registry if I remember correctly. So long as you don't f up, ur fine... but it can still happen cause the OS messes up... I personally would recommend staying with Win XP cause most stuff is still gonna support it cause it is less buggy and such. Though you might eventually have to make it go to Win 7 by Junior or Senior year (DO NOT GET VISTA NO MATTER WHAT). If you wanna save the trouble of having to upgrade Win XP to Win 7 (or if they make a new OS by then) just make sure to NOT get vista. Some stores are still selling laptops with Vista, DO NOT GET THEM. Vista is one of the worst OS's out there atm, and 7 is essentially Vista Service Pack 3 (It could be 2 if Microsoft decides to just say screw it and not upgrade Vista any more to bring it up to par).
HP is something my friend says is a problem too... I personally have never had any experience with their products so I have no clue.
Also with Win 7 and Vista (why I prefer XP) is that they're both huge for Operating systems, virus scans will take forever, and as far as I know Combofix's Beta for the 2 kind of destroys the OS... (rumor, haven't actually seen it yet).
Vista is perfectly fine, I don't think zrules has any idea what he's talking about, although I don't think you'll be able to find any new laptop without OSX or Win7. Recovering in both Vista and 7 is easy, and infinitely better than trying to save a system in XP. Good grief...
I'm a Mac and I can't go back to windows. You wont be piss off on anything. (I can't believe I typed that, but it is true. I don't remember any thing that grinds my gear. Ok beside not able to do bootcamp when my harddrive is all fragged(So if you decide to dual boot, do bootcamp at the very first moment) ) The hardware is both pretty, well-designed and solid. The OS is stable and ui friendly.
some REAL cons for mac are: - software support including games(you can dual boot if you need to run windows app, but to me it's a nuisance as everyone hate switching environment) - premium price
I'm not rich and I have already forgotten the premium price of my macbook. I believe the "premium price" is much less than face value as the pleasant experiences of both the hardware/software that Apple delivers. There is no way the current Windows can provide this. Many software are not Mac-supported, which can be a deciding factor for consumers. So If there is no priority software you need and you're willing to shell out some more money, do yourself a favor and get a mac.
If you can some how use a macbook for half a month.. do it! you probably will agree with me.
Dell Vostro 1520 with a graphics card (9300M GS was what was in mine) and add some memory so its 3 or 4 gb. All that will cost you probably less than 750 bucks.
On June 07 2010 12:04 Mykill wrote: Cons: Processing power (I cant run iTunes, Safari, Msn together) Awful heating problems because its all one big case Crazy fan (if i run a flash game the mac sounds like its taking off a runway) Awful compatibility Expensive
I have a macbook (not pro, the slightly older macbook that looks exactly like the current pro model as opposed to the new macbook which is white) that i use for school and its excellent i would definitely recommend it. I haven't really experienced any of the fan or heating problems you describe, nor have i ever had any problems with processing power i often run safari, itunes, microsoft word, acquisition (similar to limewire) etc simultaneously with no problems.
Macbooks are more expensive and compatibility is an issue, but outside of gaming there hasn't really been any important programs that i can't get to work. My recommendation: If you want the laptop primarily for gaming, get a PC. If you want it primarily for other stuff get a mac, especially if you also have a desktop PC that you can use for gaming cause laptops in general (mac or PC regardless) aren't ideal for gaming. In my experience everything besides gaming is better on a mac laptop, plus they have great resale value compared to PCs if that helps with the pricing.
Also making a poll like this on TL is a liiittle pointless since virtually everyone in the starcraft community uses windows but good luck with the search and stuff
it really depends what you want. Macs have very little in their favor, but the things they do have in their favor have not been replicated by anybody else at this point. so, it follows that if those things are important to you, you will have to get a mac.
the main things macs have going for them currently are build quality,battery life and OSX.
the main things macs don't have going for them is: power, value, compatibility.
now, depending on your situation some of these are not an issue. for example, if you are not a gamer, chances are you don't need the power. if you don't run any windows-specific programs, you don't care about compatibility. on the other hand, if you can't stand OSX, or if you're planning on using your laptop as a desktop replacement, macs are not a good choice.
i'll throw you my 2 cents in the pile (and i suggest you take the same approach when picking a laptop) find out what you want in a laptop
my list had the following: -power (for games) -style -portability -decent quality
unfortunately for mac, the "power(for games)" point automatically threw them out the window. i spent a lot of time actually considering getting a mac, and giving up games, but in the end i decided not to. OSX is a toss-up for me. my choice? envy 14 coming out june 27. here's hoping HP won't fuck it up, although envy 15 gen2 was great so i'm not too worried (and the reason i did not get envy15 gen2 is because it did not have switchable graphics and so its portability in terms of battery life was limited). plus it is not designed by HP engineers but voodooPC engineers so it follows that it will be better than your average HP notebook.
my fallback if hp fucks it up? sony z.
edit: also, you have to consider your own computer skill when making your decision. macs are quite stable and user-friendly, which is normally in their favor unless you're an experienced user in which case it just gets in the way. this was one of the few things i disliked about OSX and the mac philosophy in general. you know your situation. we don't.
edit2: upon reading your introduction in greater detail, i suggest you get a mac.
If you don't want to game then get Linux. Otherwise, get PC.
And DO NOT get a HP laptop, the stuff they have is so badly optimized (you see things like i7 + integrated graphics card going for $1500+) and really expensive.
Do not get a Mac lol. Unless you want to be trendy and/or you're really bad with computers. You can pretty much do anything a Mac can with free third-party software on a PC, and Macs are ridiculously expensive.
Processing power (I cant run iTunes, Safari, Msn together)
What on earth are you talking about? You can run much more than that simultaneously, unless you're somehow getting a Mac with hardware from 15 years ago.
I'm actually getting a laptop in the next week or so, but the difference for me is that I have a budget, and I just personally don't like Macs cuz there's like no games available for it (even though I on'y play SCBW and CS 1.6, and SC2 when it comes out).
Edit: There's an Asus gaming laptop, $899, i5, 3 MB L2 cache, 4 GB RAM, 1 GB video RAM, 16.5 inch screen. This is the one I was considering getting.
macs are overpriced, and the justification is their "good looks". If you look at anything apple has made, it is only popular because of cool looks and marketing, iphone is prolly the only exception
On June 07 2010 14:43 NeCroPoTeNce wrote: I'm actually getting a laptop in the next week or so, but the difference for me is that I have a budget, and I just personally don't like Macs cuz there's like no games available for it (even though I on'y play SCBW and CS 1.6, and SC2 when it comes out).
Edit: There's an Asus gaming laptop, $899, i5, 3 MB L2 cache, 4 GB RAM, 1 GB video RAM, 16.5 inch screen. This is the one I was considering getting.
You'd also have to deal with mouse acceleration with the Mac, which is terrible for all of those games.
If price is no issue and you want reliability, look into a business class laptop if you can. Can't go wrong with a thinkpad imo...well that was the case a few years ago at least, dunno how the whole lenovo thing worked out.
Lol, I dont agree with your cons and pros at all. You really think you cant run iTunes, Safari and Msn together? A MacbookPro is really fast, I have no problems running several heavy applications at all.
I think it boils down to economy, you really have to pay more for the same performance if you go Mac. But if economy is not an issue, I think the Mac has more pro´s. You can even dualboot and run Windows 7 on one partition if you want both. I have XP myself on a small partition just for playing Iccup.
On June 07 2010 13:41 Jibba wrote: Vista is perfectly fine, I don't think zrules has any idea what he's talking about, although I don't think you'll be able to find any new laptop without OSX or Win7. Recovering in both Vista and 7 is easy, and infinitely better than trying to save a system in XP. Good grief...
Course it did get a bump with the Service pack and no longer are there driver issues, but look at Win 7, essentially Vista that had bug fixes.
I can't find sources for the Recovery problem Atm, though I do remember that it does exist in one if not both.
And I don't remember if I posted this in my original post, but a virus such as TDSS 565 are a pain in XP... they are more painful in Vista and 7. And yes XP had problems but XP is still pretty stable as opposed to Vista or 7 (though 7 does run very smoothly with a lot of things I will admit.
If all you're doing is web browsing and typing word documents, Apple make very good laptop. If you're going to do more hefty stuff like Solidworks (probably not for you), you probably want a desktop. You can get cheap, good Macbook Pros refurbished; the main draw of apple laptops is that the build quality is miles above any consumer laptop and better than some business laptops.
The only good thing with OSX are Macbooks and you can get them cheap refurbished. All you are doing with the laptop is watching videos, browsing the web, typing documents, and other low power stuff so buying laptops with last-last generation hardware doesn't really matter.
On June 07 2010 13:41 Jibba wrote: Vista is perfectly fine, I don't think zrules has any idea what he's talking about, although I don't think you'll be able to find any new laptop without OSX or Win7. Recovering in both Vista and 7 is easy, and infinitely better than trying to save a system in XP. Good grief...
Course it did get a bump with the Service pack and no longer are there driver issues, but look at Win 7, essentially Vista that had bug fixes.
I can't find sources for the Recovery problem Atm, though I do remember that it does exist in one if not both.
And I don't remember if I posted this in my original post, but a virus such as TDSS 565 are a pain in XP... they are more painful in Vista and 7. And yes XP had problems but XP is still pretty stable as opposed to Vista or 7 (though 7 does run very smoothly with a lot of things I will admit.
Vista and 7 are both a lot safer and a lot more stable than XP. There is no debate on that. The link you posted is just someone whining about how Aero looks, and how AV programs aren't compatible in mid-2009? That's just flat out wrong. Win7 is modulated Vista with a few extra features, but if you like 7, there's not many reasons you wouldn't like Vista either. Based on your post, I'm guessing you don't have much experience with either.
We really need to know what the OP's budget is to offer a suggestion. Ideapad Y460, MSI GE600, Envy 14, Acer Timeline X would be my initial suggestions.
They're all decently powerful with i5s and upper-mid video cards, they've got switchable graphics for 4+ hour battery life, they're mostly lightweight and thin, and all the other features are good, except missing USB 3.0.
On June 07 2010 12:09 sob3k wrote: Are you AT ALL tech savvy....(If you can google computer problems to fix and don't do retarded shit like delete system32) I would def vote PC...its going to be much faster and more compatible for the same price. I have owned both macs and PC's for years, Macs are user friendly but you pay a HUGE premium for that little bit. I love my pc to death and it has never given me even a hint of problems.
PC unless you are a tech-tard
btw-I have no idea where you got the idea that pc's have bad battery life.
PC's have awful battery life compared to macs you must plug it in often. i plan to use my pc for over a year. after 1 year PC's need to recharged every 2 hours. macs last 5-6 after a year
im not a tech tard im saying the tech support is awful when you need your PC itself fixed. not the software
This is flat out not true, you talk about PC's like they are one laptop. Macbooks are generally rated to last 7 hours max, you can get an Acer Timeline that lasts 8, and If you really want to go crazy an Asus UL that can go up to 12.
Your post seems to indicate you know very little about computers.
And then you realize that both the ASUS UL and the Acer Timeline have pitiful, old 1.3GHz Core 2 CPUs while the Apple laptops are supposedly able to muster 6-7 hours with a much more powerful i5 cpu which can be clocked as high as around 2.53GHz. Not exactly a fair comparison to be honest.
The main thing that kills battery life are the dedicated high TDP graphics cards a lot of these laptops have. Laptops (Asus N61 for example) with switchable graphics can easily reach 5 hours battery life, even with i5 processors.
Again, the main draw of Macbooks is the build quality. The awesome quality of the screens, frame strength, lack of keyboard flex, good screen hinges, etc is still something consumer laptops don't offer in a single package. If you don't need to game on a laptop, a refurbished Macbook Pro is a very good day to day laptop.
Don't give in to the Mac bandwagon. Stick with PC. Especially if you're going into accounting - you may need specific programs that aren't compatible with Macs.
A mac is like smoking, it has a terrible aftertaste, it sinks its teeth into your wallet, and you only end up doing it in the first place because you "look cool and hip". It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Macs are nowhere close as customizable as a non-mac, they only have a fraction of the software options a pc has (in terms of compatibility) and you marry yourself to a company that thrives on bloated hypes and closed platforms.
If you have any knowledge on a PC (like knowing what NOT to delete, knowing or being able to google stuff if you have a problem and stay away from crappy sites) you should go for a pc.
If you have zero knowledge on the thing you want to buy, go with a mac.
Go with the PC, especially if you want to be able to play games on it. The Macbook Pros have a function key where the control key normally is, and trust me this takes a bit to get use to. My pro has started falling apart after a year of steady use, and I find it to be more of a pain to do simple tasks, like check email, than my PC. I suggest looking at the MSI, ASUS, or Thinkpad laptops and going through their high-end product lists. The MAC is not all bad, but if you're use to the PC, stick with a PC, they're far cheaper as well. For example the MSI GX740 has a core i7, a 5870, and 4gb of RAM for about 1500 CAD, these are way better specs than a MAC would have, and for less than the cheapest 15" Macbook Pro.
My vote's in for PC. Honestly 90% of the problems PCs had before was solved with Windows 7. It's not perfect, mind you, but it's more than enough to close the gap if you ask me.
Macs are great for video and sound editing, but for nearly anything else, I find a PC to be superior. The typically shortened battery life only really applies if you have everything maxed out constantly. I have an HP PC that has around 3-4 hours of battery life when it's on the medium/lower settings, and that's usually while I'm running a more intensive game (like Brood War). If all I have open is Chrome and Word, it typically lasts 4-5.
Also, Mac OS may be shiny, but Windows 7 is shiny too!
But yeah, also PCs tend to be worse for people who are Computarded, but as someone else said, if you can effectively Google your issue and not do dumb shit like accidentally reformat your drive (although that might be a hard thing to do on accident), PCs are no problem.
Mac: Pros -Great battery life. -High quality screen -High quality keyboard -OS for those who know how to use it
Cons -Runs VERY hot, the high end i7 dual core was reported to hit 100*C! -Expensive, and no i7 720qm as of now (which means no quad core, something macs users need more than pc users for video encoding and such) -Designed with looks over funtionality(the entire thing is a heatsink with poor ventilation) -Warranty is EXPENSIVE -Obsolete hardware over time, they were more than a YEAR late in refreshing the macbook pros to i3/i5/i7's, which shows that unless you buy at the right time(which is now), you will usually be a generation behind.
Notebook Pros -Windows 7 for those who prefer it -Way better price performance -Better overall components -VARIETY! <--very important -good companies give standard 2-3 year warranties
Cons -Retards suck at buying, and end up paying too much anyways -"Gaming" laptops have horrible battery life
PC>Mac anyday, though for schoolwork getting the 13 inch macbook pro with the free itouch isn't too bad of a deal.
The gaming laptop will have horrible battery life point is negated because they will have better gpu's then that mbp.
At least you get more choice in what gpu you want and nvidia is starting to roll out the optimus platform which switches between dedicated and integrated graphics without any problems.
Also notebooks can be upgraded very easily and have switchable batteries if necessary.
Notebooks can't be upgraded easily. The CPU's would have to have a compatible socket. GPU's are almost never user-upgradeable and mobile versions aren't even sold in retail anyways.
The only thing you can upgrade/ever want to upgrade with ease is Ram, HD/SSD, which a Macbook can do easily too(though it does void warranty I think, depends if they have a sticker covering the parts).
I'm not very fond of mobile computing either way. I have an Asus netbook($230 open box on newegg, 11 hour battery) for schoolwork, it does typing/web browsing/youtube, and even stepmania perfectly fine, and a very high end Desktop for gaming(just got a 5970 for $460 ^_^)
Jibba and JeeJee have made some pretty great posts so far imo, I'd reread them if I were the OP.
Something which hasn't really been mentioned is the quality of the one button multitouch trackpad on OSX. it's pretty phenomenal. I don't like hooking up a mouse to my laptop anymore, unless running a game like HoN or SC2, because the trackpad gives me almost the same range of control and is closer to the keyboard than a mouse can get (don't have to move hands very far).
If money is not an issue I would recommend a windows pc for gaming / incompatible software issues and a mac laptop (whether you go the new macbook, or new macbook pro is up to you) for work / school. This way you still get to keep your gaming, compatibility issues are gone, and you get the advantages of OSX on the laptop.
Also, I saw in a quote somewhere in the thread mentioning that they can't run itunes, msn and safari at the same time because of performance. That might be a specific problem with that mac, because I'm using the previous generation 15" mbp and I run half of the adobe suite, a bunch of chat programs, safari, itunes, adium (msn + others) and a whole bunch of productivity software and never run into problems. Right now I'm converting gigs of video 24/7 and the whole thing runs as smoothly as if I weren't.
EDIT: Oh looking at your list of pros and cons I wouldn't really count bootup, you barely ever turn them off, just shut the lid and they go to sleep. If wakeup is what you meant, then yeah, they have near instant wakeup capacity.
The only reasonable way to possess a Mac laptop is to get it free from your work when you need it to do it. With PCs, you can generally get a lot better specs for half the price.
And why the hell are people considering battery life on a gaming laptop? If you want to play games on it, you need to plug it in anyway, because when it's running just on the battery it automatically adjusts settings (lowers everything) to extend battery life instead of performance.
To get an Apple with a dedicated GPU you need to buy a $2600 American dollar laptop just for the most basic video card. Even if money isn't an issue I would buy one of the Alien-ware Gaming laptops in that case. The screen is a bit small but it has great battery life as well as plenty of power under the hood.
Which is also half the price. While there is a lot of crapware when you buy a new laptop I usually clean install an OS when I buy a new computer so I don't need to worry about it. Usually a laptop will have the OS hidden on a separate drive which you can get and use. Check http://www.notebookreview.com/ as it has great information on the good/bad of PCs and Macs as well as bunches of freeware and so on and how to customize your notebook.
And yes, while Macs are also PCs, Macs are commonly referred to as 'Macs' so 'PCs' is a shorter and easier way to abbreviate the whole 'Windows OS' thing so I prefer to call Windows computers PCs.
I got myself a 13 inch MacBook and I can say the biggest advantage is really OSX. You have to use for some time to really appreciate the small things that make it great.
for me, the pros would be: OSX, and other Mac only programs (Adium, Quicksilver ..) build quality size/weight (the difference may be only 500 grams, but if you carry it around all day, it makes a big difference.)
the price issue is not clear: it depends on how much discount you get, I got 20% at my school. Also I couldnt find a another 13 inch laptop at the same level. Most of them were really business oriented and cost more than a mac.
I don't have any experience with a mac. The only pros I can potentially "see" with it are programs, from what I've heard from a friend he prefers macs when it comes to creating media. seeing as how you're going into mathematics and not film-editing or something in that flavour I would say that you choose what OS you're most comfortable with. Don't be afraid because of the "PCs crash on me..."-arguments. Use common sense and don't click on every ad you see saying you've won a prize and you'll most likely be fine. If there's a problem, google it. If you however don't care about the price-tag I can see why one with little free-time would lean a bit towards the mac.
If being trendy is that important to you you just buy a Sony VAIO. I hated having to use my friend's Mac during our shared project times, Mac was being a bitch about basically everything it had to like connecting to the school network or just sharing files with PCs.
Too much headache and silly shit when working with Macs in my opinion. You can do anything on windows but you can't do everything on Mac ( Without jumping through hoops ).
I havent read through the thread, but if you look enough youll find some notebooks with realllly good battery life. Last time I bought one I was considering this other one which had something like 12 hours. Wasn't expensive either, I think it was like a 2,2ghz duo, 4gb ram laptop for about 650$ (sry dont remember which brand/name)
Either way I dont really get why people by macs. I'm no antifanboy but I always like going for something with a good price/performance ratio. And that's just so much better for most notebooks.
Oh also if you care about looks a lot, get a skin for your laptop, I got a great looking one for about 30$
Like a few mentioned before, OSX can become a pretty large factor in your decision, as it does for me. I absolutely enjoy the OSX, and it's really not all that hard to get used to if you don't approach it with a stubborn mindset.
My preferences have always been for: PC/Windows Desktops Mac Laptops
Honestly, don't even look into what's popular. Just find out what you need your laptop for, and which computer is going to satisfy. Although nowhere near as numerous, a lot of more applications and programs are coming to the Mac. It's not perfect yet, but it's a start. Like I said, find out what you need first. If they both satisfy, just go with whichever makes you happier. If Macs make you happy, go for it. If PCs (Windows) work better for you, by all means.
well think of it this way, the way i look at it is that Macs are like supercars ie: Lamborghini, Ferrari all that jazz, extremely expensive, the "cool" factor, gorgeous exterior and interior appearance, only difference is that in terms of performance Macs aren't as top notch as supercars...
now PC's are like street racing cars, think the Fast and the Furious kind of cars, extremely customisable, performance depends on how much cash you dump into the cars, if anything fucks up like exploding engines and shits its your mechanics or your own faults...
I have always been a proponent of apple ever since the first old machine I owned back in '96. I currently own a mac laptop however I'm in the process of buying a desktop pc. Despite the price, I think for what you are going to be doing (lack of gaming) a Mac would be your best choice for a laptop. However with Windows 7 out and Mac starting to get so full of themselves, it's not so cut and dry. Desktop windows still wins hands down for it's customization, but in the laptop department I'd go for a Mac
Well, I'm running a Macbook Pro with an i7 in it and yes . . . I must say I like it a lot. My parents have been with macs for upwards of 20 years and I have just grown up with them [macs].
That being said, I still have the necessary Windows XP partition. For program compatibility and for the fact that my Razer Deathadder Mac Edition ironically still works better with windows.
Since I feel more productive on Mac (remember, I've grown up with them) I use the Mac partition the most, but Windows is always there for gaming/compatibility kind of stuff.
So yeah, I'd totally recommend a mac. I have owned many macs over my lifetime and I hope to own many more.
Use the computer that you have more experience with. All OS have pretty much the same functionality. What it comes down to at this point is simply how good the user is. I have used a PC for my entire life. So i will always use one
It's hard to be impartial but I'll try. All of my comp eng friends think pcs are better than macs nowadays. They kinda know their stuff better than the arts majors. The computing power for the money is definitely better. However people should try to get as good a computer as possible (as long as it's not cutting edge... too expensive) since it's a good investment.
If you are heavily into gaming, pc without a doubt, because as you said: Great graphics and gaming.
If you are casual: You said you were going into a mathematics/chartered accountancy program. The main reason why people even go mac is because they like the arts software. Either they are used to it or they think that it is better. This used to be true, but nowadays pc's have great art software too.
You however, should probably get a pc because all the software you will be using comes from pcs. Many jobs require knowledge of pcs, not macs. I will however add that knowledge of both can be useful for finding certain jobs.
In addition, cross of the battery life things from your list. Even if pcs use different types of batteries, which they don't, you won't be taking your laptop around campus without an outlet nearby, and if you do, power saver mode in power options provides you with enough time.
User Friendly, well macs are user friendly in that they used to do automatic backups and disk defragmentations whereas pc's did not. Now pc's also do these things automatically as well.
Viruses: Mac's are less prone to viruses than pc's but they are not immune. While this used to be the case, since the people who made viruses liked to target the larger population of computer users, they've now realized that they can infect a lot of mac user's computers as well.
Conclusion: Get a pc, It may help you find some computer networking job when you grow up.
I've never used a mac so take everything I say lightly.
After having gone through several laptops from Toshiba over IBM, 2xSamsung, Dell to Lenovo I finally got a Macbook Pro this year. It is without doubt the best laptop I ever had. All the previous ones don't come even close. Also every one of the con points you make does not apply to a 2010 MBP (well, except Expensive).
With Bootcamp out there there is really no drawback I can think of - except the price. If you are willing to pay for the best laptop out there then go for MBP.
Hmm, I really would like to point out to the people that say you need windows for gaming that...
You still have it.
Remember that a Boot Camp partition is basically installing Windows on a chunk of hardware (in this case a "mac" chunk) and that unlike some virtualization programs, Windows installed under Boot Camp is really Windows.
Games work. Mice work. Apps still function. ICCUP will still work. I played starcraft on ICCUP just two nights ago on my windows partition.
I would use a PC, but again it also depends on what your major will end up being. I don't want to make it see to stereotyped; but macs often have the better artsy programs, but its again a matter of preference.
As for PCs crashing business, as long as you aren't doing funny business you should be ok...
I would rather get a PC laptop because its cheaper than a macbook which is way overpriced for what it can do. I also tend to think that Apple abuses their customers a bit by upgrading their gear bit by bit for another hundred bucks or so.
Again though... It's a matter of preference. If you're a gamer you obviously have to go with a PC. No question haha.
I'm using a bootcamp on a macbook pro. But I still wouldn't get a mac considering the price if you are using it for gaming. I don't know about the newer macbook pros but mine gets extremely hot even with fan control and an external cooler. Then again, mine is old and I heard Apple even underclocked the graphics card for heat reasons.
Macs are only good for specialized software, which mostly is video editing stuff (also some web building). For every single other purpose PCs are better.
If you pick a macbook pro, watch the size. 17" is way too big if you're gonna carry it on a back pack regularly. The only difference between 13", 15" and 17" is the screen size.
On June 08 2010 00:03 zatic wrote: After having gone through several laptops from Toshiba over IBM, 2xSamsung, Dell to Lenovo I finally got a Macbook Pro this year. It is without doubt the best laptop I ever had. All the previous ones don't come even close. Also every one of the con points you make does not apply to a 2010 MBP (well, except Expensive).
With Bootcamp out there there is really no drawback I can think of - except the price. If you are willing to pay for the best laptop out there then go for MBP.
What makes it so much better than all other laptops?
For a laptop, i have to vote for the macbook pro. 7 hour battery life, isnt noisy with fans, doesnt crash from overheating (every PC laptop i've had this issue). I would never get a mac desktop, but if you're not going to be playing games the mac laptop is awesome
On June 08 2010 00:03 zatic wrote: After having gone through several laptops from Toshiba over IBM, 2xSamsung, Dell to Lenovo I finally got a Macbook Pro this year. It is without doubt the best laptop I ever had. All the previous ones don't come even close. Also every one of the con points you make does not apply to a 2010 MBP (well, except Expensive).
With Bootcamp out there there is really no drawback I can think of - except the price. If you are willing to pay for the best laptop out there then go for MBP.
What makes it so much better than all other laptops?
as a mobile computing device, it's superior on build quality and battery life and relatively light.
On June 08 2010 00:03 zatic wrote: After having gone through several laptops from Toshiba over IBM, 2xSamsung, Dell to Lenovo I finally got a Macbook Pro this year. It is without doubt the best laptop I ever had. All the previous ones don't come even close. Also every one of the con points you make does not apply to a 2010 MBP (well, except Expensive).
With Bootcamp out there there is really no drawback I can think of - except the price. If you are willing to pay for the best laptop out there then go for MBP.
What makes it so much better than all other laptops?
as a mobile computing device, it's superior on build quality and battery life and relatively light.
And I have to completely disagree.
I would use my IBM laptop over this stupid MPB i'm forced to use any day of the week. I did decide to try a Mac just to see how i would like it but i can honestly say it hasn't been THAT awesome.
Sure the startup is fast and OSX is obviously superior to say Vista...but Windows 7 has closed that gap greatly and for me windows allows me to do the things I want to do on it without jumping through hoops.
Also my MPB could probably boil water on it with how freaking hot it gets sometimes. And yes, this is a 2010 MPB, if you do anything more than surf the internet on it you will burn skin on your legs if you aren't paying attention.
On June 08 2010 00:56 zOula... wrote: For a laptop, i have to vote for the macbook pro. 7 hour battery life, isnt noisy with fans, doesnt crash from overheating (every PC laptop i've had this issue). I would never get a mac desktop, but if you're not going to be playing games the mac laptop is awesome
ive never had problems with overheating laptops with PC (that includes leaving it on in a bag, leaving it on a comforter where all the vents were blocked)
macbook pro is over priced for what you get. the battery life is nice, but it doesnt justify its $$$ tag
i just hope the OP isn't blindly weighing all of these posts equally because quite frankly, a lot of them are pretty bad/misinformed (on both sides of the fence)
let us know what you end up buying and how it works out for you
On June 07 2010 12:47 KOFgokuon wrote: don't get an HP but def get a PC
Second that man, got one 5 month ago, already broken and they say its physical damage which is insane, cause this is the first of my laptops that I only used stationary, so im figthing since 6 weeks for my warranty --------
On Topic: I work for apple, but i still have my PC laptop at home and Iove it, my iMac is good for work and for my mail and pictures and music, but the endless compability in software and Hardware is not to top in a PC laptop, note also, that Apple doesn't do "Laptops" they're "Portables" because they get to fricking hot to have them on your lap.
I can heavily recommend TOSHIBA, reasonable price, good parts composition, and Sturdy like hell, I treat my Notebooks well,but also rough, and believe me nothing kills a Toshiba, no Coke and juice in the keyboard, no falling from the bed about 20 times, no rain, no short-circuiting with a wrong polarized travel-adapter. (well the battery was dead but after blowing the fuse and emitting smoke out of every vent, that aint to shaby) If you want to use the PC to primarily take notes and do research in the University, a small netbook would serve that purpose best, get a Desktop for gaming, music and picture/movie storage, that way you got the best equipment for all possibilities and you wont spend more then when you buy one big screen multi functionality Laptop. (plus longterm upgrade options on the desktop)
on an end note if you are going for a Mac for heaven-sakes get the AppelCareProtection, not some weird retailer insurance. I don't wanna have have you on the phone one day whining why I wont issue a 1000$ dollar logic board repair for free after 2 years.
---------- Aunty Edit says: there is no doubt that a MacbookPro 15" or 17" is one of the best Computers can buy, but what you get for your money is what decides how good something is, and I myself get a 27% discount on our products, I still went for a PC, cause I provided what i needed for 599 instead of 1350.
A: Because everyone is too lazy to learn how to use a program with near-infinite features and instead opt for easier, yet more restricting, OS and programs just so they don't have to "deal with it."
On June 08 2010 01:22 JeeJee wrote: i just hope the OP isn't blindly weighing all of these posts equally because quite frankly, a lot of them are pretty bad/misinformed (on both sides of the fence)
let us know what you end up buying and how it works out for you
Yeah, you can tell a lot of people haven't done research on either side of laptops lately. The change in laptop performance has changed so quickly over the past year, you really need to do research NOW to be up to date. Even a year ago and you're completely out of the loop.
Apple changed the whole game of power/battery life/form factor/display a couple years ago, and now all the PC makers are catching up. This is really the first generation of laptops when they might be caught up in all of those.
I have several macs and PCs and use both os X and win. I love my mac and Os X, but for gaming I always end up in windows. If it was primarily for school I can't see a reason for not getting a mac assuming you can afford it though.
It's more expensive, but you get what you pay for.
I haven't read the whole thread and take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I am a software engineering graduate who works all the day with the computer, therefore I may give you a different view on your problem. Coincidently i recently just bought a new laptop too. I bought the new Dell Vostro 3300 with i3 Core for about 600 € (~ 720 $), it was the first 13 '' laptop with a powerful i3/5 processor available a few weeks ago, therefore I am very happy that I am having it. My main use for it is software development, I'm running several application servers (Java EE servers), multiple programming IDEs and Adobe Photoshop at the same time on it with no problem, due to the i3 Core and the 4 gb RAM. And everything is packed in a small 13'' computer, which is the best size of a laptop imo. 14'', 15'', 17'' laptops are too big and heavy and netbooks are too small and slow to work with properly. In a case where I need a bigger screen for my works, I plug my laptop into my external monitor.
As in my case a normal laptop was just perfect, because in comparison to Macs it is
- much cheaper - all the necessary software needed are running on Win7
Since I have different requirements than you have I will list the criteria which is important for your decision, sorted by relevance in my opinion:
- Software Compatibility
this is the most important thing when you compare Macs/Win/Linux OS, since software is that what makes computers useful. I haven't tried Mac OS yet but with Win you can not go wrong, since all the professional software you need will be available to you. Linux Software compatibility is also good for Software Developers, for others such as Artists, CAD designers it may be too limited etc.
This point can be circumvented by running Virtualization Software for operating systems but it is not convenient.
Honestly, i don't think Mac OSX software is superior to Win software in anyway. As I mentioned all the professional software you cant get are Win software, because Windows is available on most of PCs.
- Hardware
what Hardware you want to have depends heavily on your use of the computer, like for me i needed a capable computer in order to run multiple applications simultanously etc.. Others need a good graphic card for Games, 3D Modelling, Video processing etc. However keep in mind that you will have a greater variety to choose from when you buy a normal laptop. Hardware modification for normal laptops is also easier to do than with Macs. In general Apple is a very proprietary company, you won't have freedom to modify your laptop as you wish, most of the external devices for Macs are proprietary too.
- Size
don't buy something which is too small, don't buy something which is too big, you will regret it. I've had a 15'' laptop, nowadays I would never ever go back to any 15'' laptops anymore, because they are too big and heavy. However if you plan to play games or exchange your Desktop PC with an all-in-one laptop a 13'' or 14'' laptop won't bring you the necessary computing power you need.
- Design/Quality etc.
Apple design and quality is worldclass. You will get that what you've paid for (even when it's always overpriced). For me laptop-case, keyboard, mouse quality is very important. You will notice it in everyday's work.
- Battery Life
This is the most irrelevant criteria of all for students imo. When you are working on your laptop you will always have a power outlet nearby. Most of the time you are working with your laptop is inside, and therefore will never have power problems. If you are using your laptop as a "laptop" much, you should consider buying a table or buying a netbook or an iPad WITH Flash .I have never used my laptop outside, people should do other things than computers outside. This is coming from a computer geek.
- Price
at the end look at the prices and choose what it is the best for you.
If you have the money and care for looks. Buy a high-class business laptop from Dell, Lenovo, Sony or smth. Looking and qualitiy-wise it should be fine and you will be flexible with Windows. You have many vendors to choose your laptop system from. With Mac you only have Apple. There are only a few modifications of MacBooks you can choose from.
If you have the money and care for looks and do not care about computers, buy a Mac. You will have a solid laptop, which is nice looking and is overpriced.
In my experience, macbooks have better cooling then pc laptops. My wife has macbook and I have pc laptop and my air intake in on the bottom of the case (rests against your lap when you are using it as a "laptop" and cuts off air supply) while it is impossible to block the air intake out output in the macbook.
Also, my computer battery is now 100% dead on my pc. It is a mobile desktop now. While my wife's macbook (bought at same time) has a great battery running stuill. Its almost as good as it was when we bought it.
Also, believe it or not, her macbook does better with games. Both of our laptops lack a dedicated graphics card (she doesn't have a pro, its just a macbook) but WoW runs perfectly on her laptop even without the video card while it will not play on mine. Starcraft 1 of course runs great on both, while SC2 will not play on either.
Also, the new macbooks have that amazinng battery life. Its simply amazing. When analyzing laptops, the battery is what MAKES a laptop a laptop. Its importance cannot be overstated and Apple's simply have longer lasting batteries that do not die as fast as PCs.
On June 08 2010 00:03 zatic wrote: After having gone through several laptops from Toshiba over IBM, 2xSamsung, Dell to Lenovo I finally got a Macbook Pro this year. It is without doubt the best laptop I ever had. All the previous ones don't come even close. Also every one of the con points you make does not apply to a 2010 MBP (well, except Expensive).
With Bootcamp out there there is really no drawback I can think of - except the price. If you are willing to pay for the best laptop out there then go for MBP.
What makes it so much better than all other laptops?
as a mobile computing device, it's superior on build quality and battery life and relatively light.
Those are really something I dont care about.. and sure as hell not something I'd be willing to pay 1000€ extra for Plus battery life isn't even necessarily true, like I said there are notebooks with 10h+ battery life
I'd really like to hear zatic's take on what he likes so much about it, I'm curious since I've never had a macbook pro
(Credentials: I'm a PC guy overall, been working as a database developer for 15 years)
PC's are cheaper, without a doubt, but in an apples to apples comparison (pun intended) the Macbook Pro line is only about 15% higher priced...not 1/2 or 1/3 the cost. Remeber...just because you can buy a $1000 PC laptop, doesn't mean the components are remotely similar. I've had some issues getting a true comparison with the MBP 2010 line as they are somewhat behind the curve technology-wise...last I ran the numbers a slightly better high-end Dell laptop was only about $200 cheaper than a comparable MBP. THats not much.
Plus...whether this applies to you is another story...but people routinely sell Macbooks/MBP's for 1/3 to 1/2 of the original purchase price after 2 years. Try selling a 2 year old PC Notebook (Hint: I've tried, many times, licky to get a hundred or two for one that is 2 years old...most of the time I just give the shit away).
Mac's in general are ALWAYS behind the performance point of PC's. Always. THere is a reason though for this...Apple tightly controls both the OS and the hardware used in the Mac lines, and as a result they deliver what is probably the strongest user experience of any computer manufacturer. About the only time a mac will crash is when you run some sort of virtualization, or while you're booted into a Windows partition LOL. They are exceptionally well designed, and because there isn't a huge variety in hardware used the OS is well developed for the specific hardware used.
Generally, as said at the start...I'm a PC guy, mostly because of my gaming addiction. But I freaking LOVE OSX...it is absolutely beautiful in its simplicity. For the artsy-fartsy of us, out of the box a Mac has better software than many paid programs for the PC world...iPhoto, Garage Band, etc "just work" and work perfectly together. The default iMail though (I think) is a pile of shit.
Mac's are not virus/trojan/keylogger free either...there are just fewer programs out there because of the small userbase (comparatively) to the PC world. When it comes to competitions to compromise machines, Mac's are lately the first to fall (PWN2OWN) but in a realistic real-world environment Macs are significantly less likely to pick up malware.
tl:dr: Mac's are more expensive upfront for lesser performance than their Windows counterpart, but tend cheaper in the long term. If you're doing hard gaming (Read: more than WoW/SC/SC2) then Windows PC's are better, period. If gaming isn't your concern, Macs are better quality systems.
I believe enough people before me have explained why. The ones that suggest getting a mac obviously have no clue or simply put looks before usability.
BUT if you don't need a computer for anything but surfing, writing essays and be shiny and if you don't give a fuck about money, then get a mac. It does look better and has a fucking apple on its shell !!!
I voted Mac because you have the money and you've used a mac before. In my experience switching from macs at home to PCs at school sucks. I hate googling how to fix the printer setup - I just want shit to work. I know I'm bad with computers - I'd just rather be skilled at other things.
I am going to be a college sophomore come next semester and I had this same debate when I was ready to buy a laptop for college. I went with a 15" MBP and I'm glad I did.
Gaming wise.. yeah it's kind of a drag if you aren't playing anything Blizzard as most other companies don't port to mac.
While at college my roommate and one of my suite-mates had their PC's die. They were both HP's... so if I had to suggest something I'd steer clear for an HP laptop.
Anyways, I'm not sure what you've been told, or why you think you can't run MSN, Safari and Itunes at the same time. I run SC2, Itunes, safari is always up with tl.net in the background and I'm on ventrilo all at the same time. Yeah, the MBP's get a little hot, but it's pretty standard. Afaik I haven't heard of anyone's MBP dying because of the heat. (Notice I'm not calling it OVERHEATING as I believe the hardware will be able to stand it) and if that doesn't comfort you there are cooling pads that can help with the heating.
The battery life is pretty damn good on mac's as well. Having a full day of classes (4-6 hours) straight running a word processor and itunes at the same time shouldn't be a problem. If you do have some heavy duty programs to run in your classes most universities will have power plugs for you to use.
The only gripe I have with apple is the price. I know for about half as much as you would pay for a MBP you could get a better PC hardware wise, but I just can't stand windows and I don't think I'll ever go back.
All in all, if you do actually have parents that will fork out the cash, I'd recommend getting a mac.
pc. You have no use for the stuff macs are actually good for, and if you just use a decent firewall and stay away from freaky animal porn sites, you'll have no issues.
i mean, if your parents are paying and you really dont care about spending the money i guess... but PC sounds better.
This is the 15 inch version of the Macbook Pro , you just have to decide if you want to pay a ridiculous amount of money for a machine with little to no performance for the prize in question or a machine with a humane pricetag.
Cons: Processing power (I cant run iTunes, Safari, Msn together): Yes you can.. if you couldn't they would be genuinely worthless.
Awful heating problems because its all one big case: I have no heating problems, and I do have a unibody Macbook. When you set them on your'e lap they really aren't hot because of the material on the bottom, and all in all they, and PCs get to be about the same temperature.
Crazy fan (if i run a flash game the mac sounds like its taking off a runway): Somewhat true, OS X and Flash don't work together well, but my fan has never gone off on my Macbook. On my old Powermac, it's loud, but you won't be buying that.
Awful compatibility: It seems like you won't have compatibility with anything at first, but it's really not true. There hasn't been a single program I couldn't use. Photoshop, Word, Chrome, Starcraft BW, Starcraft 2, whatever, they all work. My printer works with it with no problems, and my old printer did too. Mouses are plug and play, so are keyboards, it's all good. If however, there IS a program you need for school that isn't compatible, do not get a Mac.
Expensive: True, but you get what you pay for, in my opinion.
I don't think any macbook pro's other than the 13 inch are worth it. The 13 inch provides a great a combination of quality, weight, power, and battery life that other laptops in this category don't have for me. However, the 15 inch and the 17 inch are extremely pricey and there exists many pc alternatives that are more powerful and cheaper
OK, I managed to do as close to an Apples to Apples comparison as I can...
Alienware M17x vs MacBook Pro 17" Processor: Both Intel i7 620M (2.66GhZ) (tie) HDD: 500GB 7200 RPM (tie) OS: Windows 7 vs OSX (tie, really) LCD: 17" 1920x1200 LED Backlit (tie) Video: 1GB ATI 5870 vs 512MB nVidia 330M (Big Advantage: Alien) Optical: Slot-load DVD writer (tie) Wireless: 802.11n (tie) Warranty: 3 year in-home (both upgraded from basic 1 year) (tie)
Price: $2,833 vs $3,011 (Canadian dollars) Since you said you're a student, I priced the MBP in the Education Store at Apple: $2,711
So, essentially, in this exact comparison, you are paying a $178 premium (or from the education store, saving $122) for OSX & the Apple logo, and in return getting the same system with a significantly inferior graphics card. (In 3DMark06, the 330M rates approximately 50% of the 5870...now, granted, the 5870 is pretty much the best mobile graphics card on the market today). THe 330m rates almost identical to the ATI HD 4650 for those ATI comparitive folks in the crowd.
And yes, Alienware sucks/is overpriced too, but I'm trying to compare like for like.
something that was not mentioned yet, is the MBP screen. the colors etc; are fantastic, but in my experience, the glossy glass over the display is a nightmare in some situations. it's a shame that such a nice screen is ruined by a "mirror" over the screen. when watching movies with alot of dark/black scenes, i can see myself CLEARLY in the reflection.
finally, does anyone think applecare is worth it? im near the end of my 1 year warranty and i am considering buying it, but i think if something goes wrong in 1 year or so i might be better off buying a new laptop (for the upgrade etc; ). i have a mbp 13" mid-2009 version
On June 08 2010 05:01 samalie wrote: OK, I managed to do as close to an Apples to Apples comparison as I can...
Alienware M17x vs MacBook Pro 17" Processor: Both Intel i7 620M (2.66GhZ) (tie) HDD: 500GB 7200 RPM (tie) OS: Windows 7 vs OSX (tie, really) LCD: 17" 1920x1200 LED Backlit (tie) Video: 1GB ATI 5870 vs 512MB nVidia 330M (Big Advantage: Alien) Optical: Slot-load DVD writer (tie) Wireless: 802.11n (tie) Warranty: 3 year in-home (both upgraded from basic 1 year) (tie)
Price: $2,833 vs $3,011 (Canadian dollars) Since you said you're a student, I priced the MBP in the Education Store at Apple: $2,711
So, essentially, in this exact comparison, you are paying a $178 premium (or from the education store, saving $122) for OSX & the Apple logo, and in return getting the same system with a significantly inferior graphics card. (In 3DMark06, the 330M rates approximately 50% of the 5870...now, granted, the 5870 is pretty much the best mobile graphics card on the market today). THe 330m rates almost identical to the ATI HD 4650 for those ATI comparitive folks in the crowd.
And yes, Alienware sucks/is overpriced too, but I'm trying to compare like for like.
Why would you even buy/compare 17" notebooks? They are so huge and heavy you can't carry them around anyway. I "only" had an 15" notebook and wouldn't buy it again. I'm definitely going for a smaller one now. Why buy a notebook when it's not mobile at all?
To the mac vs windows thing: I have access to both (everyone in my family are mac fanatics since like forever. I even have a Powerbook from 1995 in my room because it looks so oldschool and awesome (yes i'm a nerd) - so I'm more biased pro mac). Still I would recommend a windows pc when you have to ask. macs defintiely have their pros but they are worse in cost-performance-ratio when you don't know why you buy them. Well, macs do look better and they have this life-style-image (lol), except for that I would buy a windows. (If you need an mac for your image buy an Iphone, because that's actually better than the competition (imo))
I think battery life is actually an important factor for a college student...I'm pretty sure the mbp would have a much longer battery life compared to the alienware laptop
Totally depends on the actual laptop imo. Macbooks tend to be somewhat overpriced, but they are a quality product. Check out some of the new aluminum Asus models with the i3 imo. Since windows 7 is pretty dope I would prob go PC. (I have a 1st gen macbook pro w/ OSX 10.4 and run windows 7 at home).
On June 08 2010 05:10 Bockit wrote: I would disagree with windows 7 vs osx as a "tie, really". Pretty subjective though
I know...rating the OS is extremely subjective, and we could have a bitter argument as long as this thread already is over which OS is superior. Its easier to rate it a tie than to start the fight
The problem is, OS quality changes depending on what you're using the damn thing for.
For the average home user (your parents, my wife, my kid, that sort of thing), OSX probably reigns supreme. Its exceptionally easy to use, and the built in iLife type applications are second to none.
For the gamer and "regualr office drone", Windows is by far the preferred OS. Its standard, there's an asspile of software out there for it, etc.
On June 08 2010 05:19 Keniji wrote: Why would you even buy/compare 17" notebooks? They are so huge and heavy you can't carry them around anyway. I "only" had an 15" notebook and wouldn't buy it again. I'm definitely going for a smaller one now. Why buy a notebook when it's not mobile at all?
I've been on a 17" notebook for ages now...my current Dell XPS is about 10lbs and I have the backpack for it...I carry it around with me everywhere - to say that it's "not mobile" is shortsighted. It may not be what YOU want, but its still plenty "mobile" for my needs.
But for me personally, the laptop is a desktop replacement (which I know I pay a hefty premium for), so 17" is my standard. YMMV.
I have a macbook pro for work and it is well overpriced for the specs you get BUT the quality of the keyboard/touchpad/case is miles ahead of any wintel based laptop. VMWare fusion on Mac OS is also a lot faster than workstation on Windows.
Desktops are always going to be better, cheaper and more fun to use but if you absolutely have to get a laptop and you have $3/4k lying around then you might as well get a macbook. If not you can get a wintel laptop with better specs for $1.4k.
Can always bootcamp install Windows 7 or replace Mac OS altogether if you dislike it also. I've had no issues with drivers.
Get a PC with the most manly Core i7 processor you can find. PC is cheaper, better software compatibility, more options. Never buy a Mac unless you plan to use it in the desert or highly dusty environments due to the macs having fewer holes and vents etc. for dust influx.
On June 08 2010 05:01 samalie wrote: OK, I managed to do as close to an Apples to Apples comparison as I can...
Alienware M17x vs MacBook Pro 17" Processor: Both Intel i7 620M (2.66GhZ) (tie) HDD: 500GB 7200 RPM (tie) OS: Windows 7 vs OSX (tie, really) LCD: 17" 1920x1200 LED Backlit (tie) Video: 1GB ATI 5870 vs 512MB nVidia 330M (Big Advantage: Alien) Optical: Slot-load DVD writer (tie) Wireless: 802.11n (tie) Warranty: 3 year in-home (both upgraded from basic 1 year) (tie)
Price: $2,833 vs $3,011 (Canadian dollars) Since you said you're a student, I priced the MBP in the Education Store at Apple: $2,711
So, essentially, in this exact comparison, you are paying a $178 premium (or from the education store, saving $122) for OSX & the Apple logo, and in return getting the same system with a significantly inferior graphics card. (In 3DMark06, the 330M rates approximately 50% of the 5870...now, granted, the 5870 is pretty much the best mobile graphics card on the market today). THe 330m rates almost identical to the ATI HD 4650 for those ATI comparitive folks in the crowd.
And yes, Alienware sucks/is overpriced too, but I'm trying to compare like for like.
If you're going to compare the big boys, you should really just use the Envy 17, MSI GX740 or Asus G73 to the 17" Macbook Pro. Between the Macbook and an Alienware, I'd take the MBP. Envy 17 is like $1600, GX740 is $1400 and the different G73 models go from $1400-1900. You can also get good Bing Cashback deals on all the PC laptops. HP sometimes does 25%.
Most people on TL don't know what they're talking about. >.> You'll get less biased answers there, with less PC and Mac fanboys, and people are up to date. You won't get anyone recommending their 3 year old Thinkpad, or people trying to win arguments with image macros... >.>
On June 08 2010 00:03 zatic wrote: After having gone through several laptops from Toshiba over IBM, 2xSamsung, Dell to Lenovo I finally got a Macbook Pro this year. It is without doubt the best laptop I ever had. All the previous ones don't come even close. Also every one of the con points you make does not apply to a 2010 MBP (well, except Expensive).
With Bootcamp out there there is really no drawback I can think of - except the price. If you are willing to pay for the best laptop out there then go for MBP.
What makes it so much better than all other laptops?
as a mobile computing device, it's superior on build quality and battery life and relatively light.
Those are really something I dont care about.. and sure as hell not something I'd be willing to pay 1000€ extra for Plus battery life isn't even necessarily true, like I said there are notebooks with 10h+ battery life
I'd really like to hear zatic's take on what he likes so much about it, I'm curious since I've never had a macbook pro
Quality, battery, power, weight, display just don't come as good in one package anywhere else. It's not like it's the best in each category but if all those are important to you than the MBP will offer the best overall combination, if that makes any sense.
For example I was long considering getting a Samsung X460 which looks comparable to a MBP on paper, but just working on both for 5 minutes is such a difference. Build quality is just second to none with the MacBooks.
I wouldn't trade it for the touchpad alone now. I don't know why nobody else can build something seemingly so simple as a touchpad as well but when I switch to my work laptop (Lenovo) it feels like I going back to using a ball mouse.
For reference I was never a mac head and the first thing I did on the MBP was install windows, so I really don't like it for OSX but for the hardware.
It depends if you like OS X as an OS over Windows. Besides, with a mac laptop, you can always bootcamp into Windows 7 and get a spot on Windows experience.
There are some programs that you can only run on OS X - if that's the case, then get a mac. (Logic Pro is my 'killer app' I need OS X for).Macs are generally decent with the CPU, but a bit rubbish on the GPU, they have a ton of extra stuff in there you may or may not use, like Firewire 800, Bluetooth, digital audio inputs and the like, do you want these? Do you need these? Is the extra cost justified?
I agree with Zatic that the MBP trackpad is fantastic.
On June 08 2010 00:03 zatic wrote: After having gone through several laptops from Toshiba over IBM, 2xSamsung, Dell to Lenovo I finally got a Macbook Pro this year. It is without doubt the best laptop I ever had. All the previous ones don't come even close. Also every one of the con points you make does not apply to a 2010 MBP (well, except Expensive).
With Bootcamp out there there is really no drawback I can think of - except the price. If you are willing to pay for the best laptop out there then go for MBP.
What makes it so much better than all other laptops?
as a mobile computing device, it's superior on build quality and battery life and relatively light.
And I have to completely disagree.
I would use my IBM laptop over this stupid MPB i'm forced to use any day of the week. I did decide to try a Mac just to see how i would like it but i can honestly say it hasn't been THAT awesome.
Sure the startup is fast and OSX is obviously superior to say Vista...but Windows 7 has closed that gap greatly and for me windows allows me to do the things I want to do on it without jumping through hoops.
Also my MPB could probably boil water on it with how freaking hot it gets sometimes. And yes, this is a 2010 MPB, if you do anything more than surf the internet on it you will burn skin on your legs if you aren't paying attention.
Yes there were/are several brands that also have those features like IBM/Lenovo. I think Asus are doing quite well in that part too. But in general all macbook's line up(current) have the same unibody, battery technology, etc. Compare to HP some are just fat-ass heavy and only the hi-end models have the better build quality and features.
And yes heating problem might occur if you do intensive computing on a macbook. But as a mobile computer, intensive computing is less of a concern and less common.
Mind mentioning on task you have to jump through hoops to execute in OSX?
I'm sorry for not reading everything, but I just thought I'd mention that Dell use to do a Student and Military discount on Dell and Alienware laptops. It wasn't that long ago, so the offer may still be around. I want to say it was something like 10% off.
Originally I wanted to say "buy a mac so you use your laptop fur studying and not gaming", but since we get a Mac SC2 client, this argument is gone. So, do the only reasonable thing and get a PC.
On June 08 2010 07:07 Jibba wrote: If you're going to compare the big boys, you should really just use the Envy 17, MSI GX740 or Asus G73 to the 17" Macbook Pro. Between the Macbook and an Alienware, I'd take the MBP. Envy 17 is like $1600, GX740 is $1400 and the different G73 models go from $1400-1900. You can also get good Bing Cashback deals on all the PC laptops. HP sometimes does 25%.
Most people on TL don't know what they're talking about. >.> You'll get less biased answers there, with less PC and Mac fanboys, and people are up to date. You won't get anyone recommending their 3 year old Thinkpad, or people trying to win arguments with image macros... >.>
Just priced the Envy 17, for the hell of it (again, trying to compare as directly as is possible).
I won't go as deep in the analysis as I did last time, but with a quad-core I7 instead of the dual-core in the MBP/Alien, and the ATI 5850 GFX card, adding in the photo editing & other nicities that come with the MBP (or at least a PC equivalant) came out to $2,374 USD. At today's exchange, that works out to $2,474.06 CAD. THis time, a savings of $150 over the education store at apple for a similar MBP, give or take. Yes, the Envy is a better deal...but I would argue that overall the MBP is the better notebook.
Face it, bottom line, while the MBP definetely commands a premium pricetag, once you get down and dirty the premium isn't that huge...at most 10-15%. Factor in the fact that you can easily sell a well taken care of MBP 3 years later for 25% of its original value...and the "Apple Tax" vanishes entirely.
PC's will always be cheaper up-front, but Mac's Total Cost of Ownership is way less.
Again, credentials, I'm a PC guy & database developer (Microsoft) for 15 years...I love the PC...but Mac's aren't the piles of crap they once were on a price comparative basis anymore.
i just got a 13 inch macbook pro, with iWork (similar to microsoft office)
got 100$ off as a student, and 30$ off iWork, so that only cost 40$. ( microsoft office student edition is like 180$) Making the total be 1140$ before tax
I also got a free ipod touch which I already sold, a day later, for 175$, and I got a free printer worth 150$ which I would have bought anyways.
So i figure this beautiful laptop cost me only about 815$
Anyone trying to say thats not a good deal is crazy
Get an ASUS UL. Pretty solid line of laptops, but make sure to get one that has an nVidia chip (all of them have integrated graphics, but some have an extra nVidia dedicated card so you can switch to that to sacrifice battery power for awesome graphics).
On June 08 2010 07:07 Jibba wrote: If you're going to compare the big boys, you should really just use the Envy 17, MSI GX740 or Asus G73 to the 17" Macbook Pro. Between the Macbook and an Alienware, I'd take the MBP. Envy 17 is like $1600, GX740 is $1400 and the different G73 models go from $1400-1900. You can also get good Bing Cashback deals on all the PC laptops. HP sometimes does 25%.
Most people on TL don't know what they're talking about. >.> You'll get less biased answers there, with less PC and Mac fanboys, and people are up to date. You won't get anyone recommending their 3 year old Thinkpad, or people trying to win arguments with image macros... >.>
Just priced the Envy 17, for the hell of it (again, trying to compare as directly as is possible).
I won't go as deep in the analysis as I did last time, but with a quad-core I7 instead of the dual-core in the MBP/Alien, and the ATI 5850 GFX card, adding in the photo editing & other nicities that come with the MBP (or at least a PC equivalant) came out to $2,374 USD. At today's exchange, that works out to $2,474.06 CAD. THis time, a savings of $150 over the education store at apple for a similar MBP, give or take. Yes, the Envy is a better deal...but I would argue that overall the MBP is the better notebook.
Face it, bottom line, while the MBP definetely commands a premium pricetag, once you get down and dirty the premium isn't that huge...at most 10-15%. Factor in the fact that you can easily sell a well taken care of MBP 3 years later for 25% of its original value...and the "Apple Tax" vanishes entirely.
PC's will always be cheaper up-front, but Mac's Total Cost of Ownership is way less.
Again, credentials, I'm a PC guy & database developer (Microsoft) for 15 years...I love the PC...but Mac's aren't the piles of crap they once were on a price comparative basis anymore.
You're doing it wrong.
Envy 17 from Amazon Processor: i7 720QM RAM: 8GB DDR3 @ 1333 HDD: 640 GB (2x320 7200rpm) Display: 17.3" 1920x1080 FHD Video card: ATI Radeon 5850 mobile Other 'extra' features: USB 3.0, Intel 6200 wireless card, Beats audio speakers (actually 2.0 speaker quality laptop speakers), 1x eSATA, 1x HDMI, 1x Mini Display port, 1x VGA $1649.99
Default 17" MBP (upgrading ram and harddrive is a ripoff through both HP and Apple, I see no reason to do it to either) Processor: i5 540 RAM: 4GB DDR3 @ 1066 HDD: 500GB (5400rpm) Display: 17" 1920x1080 FHD Video card: Nvidia GT 330M Extras: MagSafe power port, Firewire, 1x Mini Display port, best battery life of any 17" laptop $2299
They both have backlit keyboards, multitouch trackpads, metal case, etc. Apple has much better support and reliability, but again, in specs, the machine that's $600 cheaper crushes it in performance. Not just beats, but crushes it.
And if you're going to use the 10% Apple student discount (fyi, my school had Dell and CDW discounts as well), you should probably also consider the 25% Bing Cashback that goes on twice a month (until 7/30 )
If you configured a near equivalent notebook through HP (i5 540, 4gigs 1066 ram, 500gb 7200 rpm hdd, same everything else) and factor in Bing, you're looking at $1236.75. If you do the really smart thing and go with an i5 430, its $1124. That's a big difference.
As a MAC owner, don't get one. If your fucking mobo breaks they will try to charge u 750 USD to fix it, or if you want the "CHEAP" option, best buy did mine for 370 USD because apple charges some absurd amount of money for a new one. If i could go back a few years i'd get a PC for the same price (like 1200 USD) because this thing is a PoS, seriously the parts aren't good at all, and for like 800 u could get the same shitty laptop WITH OS X.
On June 08 2010 04:25 haruharu wrote: I don't think any macbook pro's other than the 13 inch are worth it. The 13 inch provides a great a combination of quality, weight, power, and battery life that other laptops in this category don't have for me. However, the 15 inch and the 17 inch are extremely pricey and there exists many pc alternatives that are more powerful and cheaper
On June 08 2010 07:07 Jibba wrote: If you're going to compare the big boys, you should really just use the Envy 17, MSI GX740 or Asus G73 to the 17" Macbook Pro. Between the Macbook and an Alienware, I'd take the MBP. Envy 17 is like $1600, GX740 is $1400 and the different G73 models go from $1400-1900. You can also get good Bing Cashback deals on all the PC laptops. HP sometimes does 25%.
Most people on TL don't know what they're talking about. >.> You'll get less biased answers there, with less PC and Mac fanboys, and people are up to date. You won't get anyone recommending their 3 year old Thinkpad, or people trying to win arguments with image macros... >.>
Just priced the Envy 17, for the hell of it (again, trying to compare as directly as is possible).
I won't go as deep in the analysis as I did last time, but with a quad-core I7 instead of the dual-core in the MBP/Alien, and the ATI 5850 GFX card, adding in the photo editing & other nicities that come with the MBP (or at least a PC equivalant) came out to $2,374 USD. At today's exchange, that works out to $2,474.06 CAD. THis time, a savings of $150 over the education store at apple for a similar MBP, give or take. Yes, the Envy is a better deal...but I would argue that overall the MBP is the better notebook.
Face it, bottom line, while the MBP definetely commands a premium pricetag, once you get down and dirty the premium isn't that huge...at most 10-15%. Factor in the fact that you can easily sell a well taken care of MBP 3 years later for 25% of its original value...and the "Apple Tax" vanishes entirely.
PC's will always be cheaper up-front, but Mac's Total Cost of Ownership is way less.
Again, credentials, I'm a PC guy & database developer (Microsoft) for 15 years...I love the PC...but Mac's aren't the piles of crap they once were on a price comparative basis anymore.
out of curiosity, how did you manage that? care to list out the specs of both the hp and the mbp? my numbers are not even remotely close to these, and i'm totally ignoring the fact that envy's video card absolutely destroys MBPs (treating them as equal)
there are many things you can argue in favor of apple's notebooks. price/value isn't one of them.
The 5850M is actually a much better card than the Nvidia Optimus 330M GT that comes with the macbook pros. Much better and on completely different tiers.
If your willing to learn a little about computers / OSes I would suggest building a desktop that will do the heavy lifting of your computing needs and a netbook / small laptop that is for the portability (mainly for battery and remoting into your desktop).
All this won't be a huge sink in your wallet because you can build a decent desktop that can run most high end games for under $1000 and a netbook is under $300.
I just got a netbook for $230 from woot and its so far what i payed for. Mainly got it for the battery life and portability when I go back to school later this year.
Windows 7 is actually pretty nice been using it since it was in beta. One of the big thing is its really user friendly. And some schools give you free OS. I go to Rochester Institute Technology (RIT) and got bunch of keys from MSDNAA
If your going into a math program you prob want a windows machine because you will run a lot of programs that where made for windows then maybe ported to mac.
EDIT: Oh and learning to reformatting is really useful skill to have because it fixes all windows problems its not that hard either.
On June 07 2010 12:04 Mykill wrote:Cons: Processing power (I cant run iTunes, Safari, Msn together) **NOTE** People seem to have an issue with my arguement, i honestly try to watch youtube talk on msn and have itunes as well as limewire to download music and it freezes up. im not sure why maybe ill take it into the apple store **
The reason for the freezing up is probably because of the SSD. (I assume this is the macbook pro)
Standard JMicron MLC SSDs have atrocious multitasking capabilities, SLCs are only slightly better, and the only viable SSD is the new Intel X-25 Series which costs a fortune. Right now SSD has so many trade-offs, so you are still better off with a stock standard 2.5in laptop HD. Usually they are 5400 rpm, but you can get 7200 rpm ones or even 10,000 rpm ones (they might overheat though).
Western Digital Caviar SE16 (standard 7200 rpm HD): 1.26 MB/s JMicron JMF602B MLC (SSD): 0.02 MB/s
Fast boot time can be achieved easily with Windows XP if you use nliteXP and remove programs and services that don't matter, boot times can become insanely fast after that. One problem is how windows installs programs which pretty much requires you to reformat every 6 months, but one thing you can do is use as many portable programs as possible, rather than installers, it should make a big difference to maintaining your boot time.
I got a Macbook Pro just because it was the only decent high-end laptop available at the medium I bought it at (I wouldn't have to pay tax).
After like a day on the Mac OS, I installed Windows 7 lol. It does have some driver issues (headphones won't work unless you already have them plugged in before launching a game, stuff like that) but otherwise works pretty well.
On June 10 2010 07:02 JeeJee wrote: out of curiosity, how did you manage that? care to list out the specs of both the hp and the mbp? my numbers are not even remotely close to these, and i'm totally ignoring the fact that envy's video card absolutely destroys MBPs (treating them as equal)
there are many things you can argue in favor of apple's notebooks. price/value isn't one of them.
The vidoe card absolutely destorys the MBP...100% agreed...and in this case the processor is better too.
My numbers came from a custom built system using HP's own online ordering system, and also included some photo editing/CD software to try to compare somewhat to the iLife suite on the MBP.
But I will still argue that, when you factor in the Total Cost of Ownership, Apple can and does often beat out a Windows PC (TCO factors in the "extra" software you all but need on a PC, resale value, etc). The Mac will ALWAYS cost more upfront than the same WinPC, but in the long term (3+ years) the Mac will usually win on TCO.
I am a PC user and always have been. I'm also a college student.
For college, get a Mac laptop.
They have big screens and are very easy to use. If you watch netflix on them, you will be very pleased. They are the potentate for graphics design as well, so if you decide to do some art classes, you'll be good.
On June 08 2010 08:56 Mykill wrote: thanks for all the advice guys!
I will probably be buying a Sager, Lenovo or an MSI
Getting iPhone 4G though. its too amazing to pass up
Great choice. Jibba gave you some insightful answers as to where to look. Notebookreview is a great site to look, since there's a lot of information there. I actually posted 2 user reviews on that site, both were Sager laptops.
I had the same debate about a year and a half ago, and I eventually decided on a ThinkPad (not IdeaPad) for slightly under $1000 CAD, it was about $400 cheaper than a MBP with similar specs.
On June 10 2010 07:02 JeeJee wrote: out of curiosity, how did you manage that? care to list out the specs of both the hp and the mbp? my numbers are not even remotely close to these, and i'm totally ignoring the fact that envy's video card absolutely destroys MBPs (treating them as equal)
there are many things you can argue in favor of apple's notebooks. price/value isn't one of them.
The vidoe card absolutely destorys the MBP...100% agreed...and in this case the processor is better too.
My numbers came from a custom built system using HP's own online ordering system, and also included some photo editing/CD software to try to compare somewhat to the iLife suite on the MBP.
But I will still argue that, when you factor in the Total Cost of Ownership, Apple can and does often beat out a Windows PC (TCO factors in the "extra" software you all but need on a PC, resale value, etc). The Mac will ALWAYS cost more upfront than the same WinPC, but in the long term (3+ years) the Mac will usually win on TCO.
Usually.
numbers, not words please. again i can't even come close to replicating MBPs price with envy's, there's always a 500+ premium on the mbp.
I've played around with boot camp on a Mac and the one thing I hate is that the laptop gets hot as hell and the fan is always on full blast making it one of the noisiest things in my house. I'd rather get something that can monitor the hardware better in Windows.
If your PC keeps crashing on you, then you're an idiot and you don't know the first thing about PC maintenance or repair. Also, PCs have the best (free) support in the world. It's called the internet. Any problem you have with a PC can be solved on the internet. Whether it be on forums like this, or FAQs posted online. Also, I don't know is Apple still does this, but I believe they may charge fees for updates to their OS.
On June 07 2010 12:04 Mykill wrote:Cons: Processing power (I cant run iTunes, Safari, Msn together) **NOTE** People seem to have an issue with my arguement, i honestly try to watch youtube talk on msn and have itunes as well as limewire to download music and it freezes up. im not sure why maybe ill take it into the apple store **
The reason for the freezing up is probably because of the SSD. (I assume this is the macbook pro)
Standard JMicron MLC SSDs have atrocious multitasking capabilities, SLCs are only slightly better, and the only viable SSD is the new Intel X-25 Series which costs a fortune. Right now SSD has so many trade-offs, so you are still better off with a stock standard 2.5in laptop HD. Usually they are 5400 rpm, but you can get 7200 rpm ones or even 10,000 rpm ones (they might overheat though). time.
JMicron does not manufacture NAND Flash. SLC/MLC have nothing to do with freezing up, nor does it have anything to do with multitasking. SLC vs MLC is a completely different issue.
What you are talking about is the controller itself, or the brain of the SSD that dictates what goes where. The older JMicron drives were absolutely terrible because the controllers were terrible, and would allocate data inefficiently causing low random reads/writes which caused a freeze. Now, there is the relatively old Intel X25-M (the first decent SSD), but there are also real alternatives to the Intel SSD. There are the Indilinx Barefoot controllers, Sandforce controllers, and even the new JMicron (when it doesn't brick the drive with bad firmware).
I'm no laptop/computer expert, but I can add 2 cents:
1) Don't get an HP. They're just eh from my experience. 2) Imo, Macs give you the same specs, speed, etc as Windows computers, but cost ~$500 more.
My honest opinion about Apple's products is that they're somewhat gimmicky. People have run to Apple because Apple's released a lot of shiny convenient products (iPods) and now all those iPod users think the shiny laptops are great stuff too. I really don't like Macs, I don't find anything special about them after using them, they're just really expensive toys. And now that Windows 7 has replaced the terrible Vista, PCs don't really fail in any particular category in my experience.
On June 11 2010 15:15 InfeSteD wrote: Once you get a MAC, you'll know. It's just better , holds its value and it lastes... just try it and you wont go back (laptops)
On June 11 2010 00:46 ragnasaur wrote: I am a PC user and always have been. I'm also a college student.
For college, get a Mac laptop.
They have big screens and are very easy to use. If you watch netflix on them, you will be very pleased. They are the potentate for graphics design as well, so if you decide to do some art classes, you'll be good.
Yeah screw those pc laptops being be-riddled with confusing mazes and complex encryptions required to use word documents and the internet.
And god damn when are pc's finally gonna get those 'big screens' ive been waiting 2 years for my custom big screen
On June 11 2010 15:15 InfeSteD wrote: Once you get a MAC, you'll know. It's just better , holds its value and it lastes... just try it and you wont go back (laptops)
Just about everyone I know that has owned a Mac would disagree... In truth, there's very little substance behind the Mac hype. Just buy whichever computer you like more. These days, they're all pretty much the same... Unless you absolutely NEED to use some Mac-specific software, there's really little reason to go that route, though. Of course there are those who appreciate the aesthetics or REALLY like OSX, which is fine.
Mac OS X is so incredibly superior to Windows that I couldn't even image the possibility that I would ever buy a PC again.
If you know stuff about computers then build a Hackintosh (putting Mac OS X on non apple hardware). I have never done it personally but I know people that have and they love it.
On June 11 2010 15:28 -SaRiS- wrote: Mac OS X is so incredibly superior to Windows that I couldn't even image the possibility that I would ever buy a PC again.
Care to explain what makes OSX "so incredibly superior" to Windows 7? Seems to me they're pretty comparable.
OK, the thing here is, what will you use it for?, if you are planing on "serious gaming" go for the pc 100%, if you plan on just playing SCBW or SC2 and using the computer for work and studies I would definitely go for the Mac. I own a mac, and I can tell you its super reliable and great for working and studying( I study 3d animation), its super fast and the "problems" are really easy to solve, on the other hand its there isn't such a variety of software you can get your hands on, but the software its good, I can guarantee that Mac Software is pretty good, unless is some kind of Windows to mac adaption . You should also keep in mind Mac can run windows too now
You mentioned you were considering a lenovo, and I have one, so I'll add my 2 cents:
Good stuff: 1. The thumbpad is AWESOME. At first you wonder why the hell there's this random red dot in the middle of your keyboard, and after a month or two you can't live without it. 2. The keyboard is excellent. 3. The computer is super durable... I've dropped it off my desk, banged it into walls, etc, and it barely has a scratch. The all-aluminum macbooks look durable, but a lot of my friends have them and have dented them. This sucker is actually durable. 4. Non-glossy screen is nice.
Bad stuff: 1. The screen really is not meant for movie/TV watching. Colors are kinda washed out compared to other screens. 2. Lenovo has a lot of kinda weird compatibility issues. For example, sometimes video card drivers won't work because they require a lenovo -only version. Lenovo also insists on putting a bunch of software on the comp that, while actually pretty useful, interferes with some windows software. For example, windows system restore doesn't work, but the special lenovo system restore does. It's just a little annoying when trying to do certain things.
Edit -- this only applies to thinkpads, not any other lenovo laptops, but honestly you should be getting a thinkpad if you're getting anything from lenovo anyway :p
FWIW, I just got my Ideapad Y460 earlier today. It's got some heat issues when the 5650 is on (has switchable) but the build is completely solid, moreso than the Envy I tried out, and the keyboard/touch pad are fantastic.
As far as the screen goes, I've been really impressed with it. I know the Y560 has screen issues and I've heard Thinkpads have pretty crappy screens, but this looks really, really good. The low resolution helps, but it's pretty bright.
^Yeah, I'm about to do a clean install of Win7. There's way too much pre-installed crap here.
Care to explain what makes OSX "so incredibly superior" to Windows 7? Seems to me they're pretty comparable.
Words don't seem to work. Just try it.
I have a Macbook Pro. Microsoft has actually done a fantastic job with Windows 7 and OSX isn't really better than it in terms of basic usability. Steve Ballmer just sucks balls at everything and the marketing team at Microsoft is just plain bad so everyone is still in the "VISTA SUX BALLS" phase.
The applications OSX comes with are fantastic but that's a completely different ball park.
On June 11 2010 16:57 Jibba wrote: FWIW, I just got my Ideapad Y460 earlier today. It's got some heat issues when the 5650 is on (has switchable) but the build is completely solid, moreso than the Envy I tried out, and the keyboard/touch pad are fantastic.
As far as the screen goes, I've been really impressed with it. I know the Y560 has screen issues and I've heard Thinkpads have pretty crappy screens, but this looks really, really good. The low resolution helps, but it's pretty bright.
^Yeah, I'm about to do a clean install of Win7. There's way too much pre-installed crap here.
Lenovo laptops are great because they have rock solid build quality and their keyboards are simply divine to use. Yeah its a real shame that the Thinkpads have really awful screens (crap resolution and colour) but the Ideapads are a lot better in that department as you found out.
On June 11 2010 15:28 -SaRiS- wrote: Mac OS X is so incredibly superior to Windows that I couldn't even image the possibility that I would ever buy a PC again.
Feel free to support your argument I'll throw out there that Mac OS X has the worst mouse acceleration curve among any operating system. Any comparison also depends on what version of windows you're talking about..
On June 11 2010 15:28 -SaRiS- wrote: Mac OS X is so incredibly superior to Windows that I couldn't even image the possibility that I would ever buy a PC again.
Feel free to support your argument I'll throw out there that Mac OS X has the worst mouse acceleration curve among any operating system. Any comparison also depends on what version of windows you're talking about..
I currently own a mac that I bought in the same position that you are in now, approximately 5 years ago (iBook G4 12"). You have noted the main issues that I have with my computer (apart from the inability to play BW on iccup and various other games that I would like to):
On June 07 2010 12:04 Mykill wrote: ... This is what i came up with for Macs ... Cons: Awful heating problems because its all one big case Crazy fan (if i run a flash game the mac sounds like its taking off a runway) Awful compatibility ...
From my experience, when you are starting your degree you have no idea what software you would like to/are required to use in a few years time, for games or for degree related software. I do engineering and this is a major annoyance with my mac. As you're doing maths you might need to use mathematica/matlab so you may want to check their compatibility on a mac.
Regarding heating/fan issues: I would get a PC just to get rid of the lawnmower noise my mac makes when it heats up. It is terrible. My mac's fan starts to go insane when I do anything more intensive than reading, typing and listening to music (all at the same time though). For example if I was to go watch a few games of starcraft on youtube I would not only be able to not watch the games in HD (because my video card is shit), but would most likely get my fan going mental after a few games.
Get a PC or buy one of those fans that you can sit on your table and put your mac on. Windows is really pretty good. I would 100% buy some legit antivirus software as well.
On June 11 2010 15:28 -SaRiS- wrote: Mac OS X is so incredibly superior to Windows that I couldn't even image the possibility that I would ever buy a PC again.
Feel free to support your argument I'll throw out there that Mac OS X has the worst mouse acceleration curve among any operating system. Any comparison also depends on what version of windows you're talking about..
On June 11 2010 15:28 -SaRiS- wrote: Mac OS X is so incredibly superior to Windows that I couldn't even image the possibility that I would ever buy a PC again.
Care to explain what makes OSX "so incredibly superior" to Windows 7? Seems to me they're pretty comparable.
It's innovative, and it's mac. Now stop asking questions.
i have a Toshiba A500 laptop and its just been amazing, can run SCII just fine on Medium, i can also run games like fallout 3, cod:mw2 on high and i got it for 800 with taxes
slickdeals.net < camp here for a week or so until you find an i5 for under $600 (or, if you must, an i7 for under $700). It will be a PC and you'll literally pay 1/3 of the price of a comparably spec'd Mac.
I will have used OSX for half a year soon. The only two programs that have crashed on me have been Itunes (problem with playing a cd) and openoffice (which is a bad program for mac, and crashes every-time I try to open a word document), but I've gotten the iWork suite and I'm glad I did; the incredible amount of templates was the sell point for me.
Now, I still have to work on a Windows, both XP and 7, a lot of programs crash often or take ages to load (outlook takes almost a minute and works like a piece of dung, and open source programs take even longer), my Gateway laptop literally takes hours to shut itself down on way too many occasions ("10 programs still have to be closed") and only a practically empty XP machine can compare with the boot time of my mac.
I'm also perfectly content with being a console gamer so Windows doesn't have anything at all that I would want.
Desktop plus netbook imo. You don't need to play games on a portable computer unless you spend a lot of time at stuff like LANs; for doing work a netbook works fine. I get 6 hours of battery life on mine (some Dell Inspiron model; you can likely do better than that for price though).
Getting a laptop that's comparable to my desktop would probably have cost me about as much as my desktop + peripherals + netbook together, so yeah....
get pc i bought a macbook recently (pc user before) and although it has its cool gimmicks and stuff like Spaces and the trackpad being cool with 2-3-4 finger combos... the PC is way cheaper and more practical. unless you're a big musician or anything then you'll need a macbook
To fix the battery life problem, see if the company that sells your laptop offers 12cell batteries.
I have a 12 cell for my HP laptop and I NEVER run out of battery (well after 6hours of HEAVY use).
12 Cell is about $200, you can buy a decent laptop for $800. Wont be able to run a tonne of games though... but well will run low end games (at least you can get a graphics card which isn't on board .)
Would recommend: - Toshiba - Sony - Samsung - Dell
all usually give nice laptops without a lot of the HP problems.
Although, with HP if you just want to do a fresh install of Windows 7 as soon as you buy it, then it will run beautifully.
I recently bought ( well not so recently around 6 months but nvm)
An i7 + ati 5870 + 8 giga ram @1880mhz + HD 500gb + coolmaster haf + 24inch lg monitor + gigabyte ga 58 ud5p for less than 1500 euro which curently should be like 1700 dollars.
to get a mac like that you will need like 5k , is just fancy overhyped overpriced products which thanx to public ignorance about pcs in general + plus great marketing + steve jobs manage to be currently no1 in stock market even bypassing microsoft.
Do they worth the money ? absolutely not , get a pc which you will make by ur self not a premade one .
get a netbook for school and portability, desktop for home and heavy use. combined will cost way fewer than a macbook. netbooks are more portable and lighter, and desktops may be more powerful than macbooks.
but ye once i used apples 1 button mouse back in grade school, ive always thought bad about macs in general.
As laptops are basically locked boxes anyway, the biggest disadvantage of going with mac is already tossed out the window.
With the mactops you can't really go wrong... They're all the same high quality product with different inner gutsy bits. Shopping windows is more of a minefield: crappy builds, product defects, over heating (refer to my post here for more info on why the heat is especially bad) could all be issues that you face with just any old laptop. If I had the money, being a sworn windows desktop user, I would go apple for sure.
My father own a very pricey Mac laptop and I own a PC laptop that is half the price. Also, the good thing about PC's is BUILDING ONE! I built my computer and my laptop to my custom specs and bought all the parts separate from newegg.com. Build your own rig for sure, that way you can skimp on things you don't really need and pay the extra cash to the things you do need. If things change, upgrade your components. Mac lovers keep hating but you cant do that.
Meh, I tried out a mac and I found it to be terribly overpriced for nothing truly special. I would stick to a normal laptop that has a decent battery life, some friends I know have Windows laptops that can go on for 6-8 hours.
I understand the Mac argument, but I find that my lenovo T400 leaves little to be desired.
Its durable (magnesium allow chassis, Lenovo has a very good service record) Its powerful (Core 2 duo 2.53GHz) It runs everything I want it to run, or ever will want it to run Windows 7 is as fast as any Mac
My main argument for PC over Mac is that you can troubleshoot problems on a PC, where as on a mac it is much more difficult.
As well, if you are looking at a windows netbook, the battery life will dominate that of a mac. I think that Mac's only have longer battery life (IF that's actually true) because they use lower power parts meaning less performance.
i have a mac and I am thoroughly pleased with it. while it is true that macs are expensive, it's versatility is unmatched. if you want to play games on it, like most people visiting tl, install windows with your student discount. i basically have two computers in one and i love it. i cannot express how easy this makes my life. at first i was skeptical about spending money on a mac, but my job required it (programs native to mac, some security program etc). i have not regretted my purchase.
I'm planning on buying an ASUS U30Jc since its got good battery life, is fairly well priced, and still has a dedicated graphics card. Even if I find something else, I wont get a mac. My sister has one and its alright, but I don't think the price is justifiable, and I personally don't like OSX's interface that much, too used to PC's I think.
That may be something to consider, have you thought about which OS you prefer?
Because unless you REALLY prefer OSX, then there's very little incentive that I see to get a mac. There are a lot of PC laptops with great battery life, better components, and a fraction of the price of a mac.
Mac is really meant for the tech-retarded, prefer to use money to solve problem without bothering to do any research.
PC is more cost efficient in all aspects. I am sure that other posters have already listed all the pros that PC has over Mac prior to me, so no need for me to go into details.
If you want battery power, there are a lot of laptops out there designed for portability and battery life and offer more processing and graphic power than its MAC counterpart at a cheaper price.
Mac is simply packaged better than your average PC. No need to install any additional programs. More user friendly so to speak.
So Macs are overpriced. I paid for one and I have to admit, I have I bought it because I had more money than I could spend. Now I've just gotten used to the OS so I might get another one. It's going to be like 1700 for a 15 inch which would be double a comparable PC one.
I'd get a pre built linux on though. I'd have to look into that.
I voted for pc. There are a lot of reasons, and I think they have been repeated enough already.. As for which laptop, I'd vote for a HP envy 15 or 14, depending on how big screen or actual size you prefer. The reason would be - it looks great (no daddy's-boy-mac-owner can diss you for owning it), - it's solid! (aluminium case/frame) - it runs cool, - has decent battery life, - it's very light -has a good screen (which I feel is crucial if you are going to be using it a lot studying, make sure u get a 1920x1680 resolution) - it runs SC2 with ease.
note: it does not have cd-rom, but media stored on cd/DVD is phasing out, and I bet you can download it digitally/copy it to a portable media drive and install it from there.
Your impressions are a little off the mark. If you get an equivalent PC laptop with equivalent support the price is about the same. The flash issue you mentioned is due to Adobe doing a terrible job with the Mac version of flash which is why Apple didn't support it for the Ipad. There are PC laptops available that are far cheaper than Macs but don't expect the hardware to be as reliable and be prepared to do your own support.
@Grond isnt mac and laptop hardware the same? I've been seeing intel macs for a while now.. (since core2duo came out?) how fast manufacturer repairs defects and ship it back to you varies, but they are all pretty darn slow.. Don't know about apple though.. As for software, knowing how to remove / install drivers&software should be common knowledge for anyone who owns a computer if you ask me. It's like putting fuel'n oil in your car once in a while. M'kay? Obey mr.handpuppet!!
I'm a macbook user, and I'm going to say go with the PC.
Like others have said there is really no valid reason to get a mac. I don't even know why there's a discussion about this. A PC is just way more practical, cheaper, and better for school. The only real thing going for macs is that they're slick-looking, light and have good battery life.
So, does any one have a LEGIT reason for buying a mac over PC? If we are talking desktops, battery life isn't even an issue. I can't believe how many students use macs (over 90 percent) in my school, a university that the "really smart" kids go to.
On June 12 2010 10:53 st3roids wrote: I recently bought ( well not so recently around 6 months but nvm)
An i7 + ati 5870 + 8 giga ram @1880mhz + HD 500gb + coolmaster haf + 24inch lg monitor + gigabyte ga 58 ud5p for less than 1500 euro which curently should be like 1700 dollars.
to get a mac like that you will need like 5k , is just fancy overhyped overpriced products which thanx to public ignorance about pcs in general + plus great marketing + steve jobs manage to be currently no1 in stock market even bypassing microsoft.
Do they worth the money ? absolutely not , get a pc which you will make by ur self not a premade one .
I'm typing this on a PC I built with a Intel Quad core running at 3.6 Ghz, 8GB of RAM and a heavily overclocked Gigabyte 4890 running Windows 7. Next to it is a HP Proliant Quad core Xeon with 8GB of RAM running Server 2008. Also in this room is an Athlon 2600 I built running XP and a dual Celeron 400 running NT4, not too mention several PC's in the closet I prefer not to think about. That said Macs are fantastic machines and you get what you pay for. There are reasons why a PC can be a better choice but to dismiss people buying them due to ignorance is the pot calling the kettle black.
I have recently been asked the same question as the OP, because my sister is going to uni after the summer and she plans on buying a laptop. I was recommending her to buy a PC, because it's simply a better deal for the same price, as well as no need to adapt to a new interface (we've been using PC since our first desktop).
However the major question is that she is going to the arts uni in London to study fashion jewellry and she is worried that she might need mac. However is a mac really essential for anyone except graphic designers, musicians composing music and photoshop specialists? I have never had experience with real mac users (by real I mean those who could NOT do their job without a mac), as all mac users I know are apple fans, just because it's apple...
Can anyone enlighten me on this subject? Any TL members in arts unies?
"hey guys lookie i has got myself a stylish imba macintosh, u still stucked wif dat windows crap?"
tbh im never convinced about a mac's performance, but it just looks so cool that most people just blindly get em.
imagine a successful businessman carrying a windows lap, and then imagine that same man holding a macbook. the impression you get changes drastically .
On July 14 2010 19:53 Fenris wrote: I have recently been asked the same question as the OP, because my sister is going to uni after the summer and she plans on buying a laptop. I was recommending her to buy a PC, because it's simply a better deal for the same price, as well as no need to adapt to a new interface (we've been using PC since our first desktop).
However the major question is that she is going to the arts uni in London to study fashion jewellry and she is worried that she might need mac. However is a mac really essential for anyone except graphic designers, musicians composing music and photoshop specialists? I have never had experience with real mac users (by real I mean those who could NOT do their job without a mac), as all mac users I know are apple fans, just because it's apple...
Can anyone enlighten me on this subject? Any TL members in arts unies?
I am not in art uni but I have a friend in Israel that works in web design and graphics design (started his own company when he was 15) and for him he feels it is totally justifiable to dish out 2000+ on a mac just for the image it gives him when he meets with his client. If you work in any design field I believe a Mac is a good investment as it will give a positive reflection of your design taste.
"hey guys lookie i has got myself a stylish imba macintosh, u still stucked wif dat windows crap?"
tbh im never convinced about a mac's performance, but it just looks so cool that most people just blindly get em.
imagine a successful businessman carrying a windows lap, and then imagine that same man holding a macbook. the impression you get changes drastically .
Yeah, my impression would be "heh, he's a pretentious douche who doesn't know much about computers". Really. I know that there are advantages to a mac, but please, they improve your 'look' about as much as an ipod does.
I have not read this thread, but here is what I did and thoughts for the future.
I always buy Mac. I come from Linux world so it is an easy decision. I installed SC2 on Win7 that was bootcamped on my Macbook Pro (old generation, model before the black keyboard, still good GPU (512MB i think) and 4GB RAM). But I had issues with overheating when in Bootcamp mode.
So I bought a middle class PC laptop (Samsung) with 1GB GPU and i5 processor, just for SC2 gaming. I like the idea with laptop so I can bring it to LAN etc.. I hook my laptop to my LCD TV and run SC2 in Full HD (HDMI, n/a for Mac btw) with High grapichs settings. Runs find I think.
My brother has a new generation Macbook Pro. He bought it for SC2 gaming when we got our beta keys. SC2 runs fine in win7 bootcamp. He is pleased with it.. It is good enough!
We are both planning to buy stationary computers when we move to bigger apartments Guess in time for the second release of SC2. (I guess it will be a Mac that runs Win in bootcamp unless Blizzard fixes all issues with SC2 for native Mac)
I would not run SC2 with native Mac OS at the moment.
As a long time mac user, currently having 2008 MacBook Pro 15' i would suggest Mac laptop anytime if you can afford the extra cost for it. Saying that i'm myself getting PC gaming laptop mostly because there isn't good Mac laptop below 1600-1800 (meaning that it actually has a GPU, not some crappy integrated one) and no way i can afford that extra 500-700. And i suggest getting Applecare after the first year because if something happens (GPU overheats come in mind) it's going to be very costly without it, and with it you have a good chance of getting upgrade to your laptop, they just put new Motherboard in it instead of replacing one part. And the new chassis for the MBP has imo very good fans and the chassis doesn't get that hot, but you need some fancontrol program to get the fans running before it hits 60+ degrees.
Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
I have an iMac by myself, it is about as good as those new macbook pro's. I thought it would be a good idea to buy a mac since i had the money and didn't want crashes. But i use it for gaming and stuff. What i experienced is that you pay extra for the names mac and apple on your side and the design of apple, which is unique and cool. But PC's are just more cost-efficient. You get more processor power, better graphics and all in all a better product for the same price. BUY A PC!
If you have enough to spend and up for something new try a Macbook. You won't be disappointed. I wouldn't recommend anyone a Mac for desktop, but for a laptop it's a really solid pick. Of course it depends on what you want to do with it.
I don't know why you'd not be able to run iTunes, Safari & MSN together. Macs aren't prehistoric machines or way behind Laptops or whatsoever. You can find lotsa cheap laptops but if you want a laptop which actually has some design to it and a solid casing (rather than some cheap ass stuff that 80% of the world has) then you'll be getting closer to the prices of a Mac too.
If you have an iPod etc. I guess making a step to a Macbook will get a lot easier. But in the end it comes down to what you really want to do with it. If you want to play games on your laptop you might want to look into something different. Any laptop with a good gfx card won't be cheap though.
Instead of asking yourself Mac or PC? You should probably make a pick first on what kind of model you'd buy if you were to buy a Macbook, see if it can handle whatever you like, see how competitive PC Laptops are in the same or lesser price range, and go from there.
MAC - overpriced laptop because it has the apple logo laptop(hp or any other) - cheap, fast, huge huge archive of software, generally longer battery life than apple(win7 vs macOS).
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
THIS!
I´m in the same university department like the information scientists. Why is there, in the whole electrical engineering and information technology faculty, not one(!) single person using one of this elite Uber computers called MacBook? And why is it used by almost every person studying things like "design" and all that other cool and stylish fashion folk? Hmmmm, guess computer scientists know nothing about computers. They rly should care much more about product placement!
i mean if you're not a HUGE gamer, then get a MAC. i mean, they're purty fast and all, and the results of your poll will most definitely be skewed. I mean you're on a forum of gamers, so obviously most people are going to say pc. if your're not a huge gamer, i think personally the operating system for mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>> pc.
On July 14 2010 22:25 Craton wrote: Or it could be that Macs come with better tools for editing graphics/video and have that as pretty much their only worthwhile purpose?
If you're going to hate on Macs, at least do it right.
I think even that's too general. Final Cut Pro or certain music editing software, probably yes. I know someone that does professional animation with After Effects and their company's older PCs render faster than the newer Macs. I can't recall the specs off the top of my head, but everyone prefers working on the PCs.
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
lol..
Perhaps I'm going OT now.. Sorry for that..
From my 15 year computer programmer (notice 2x'm') experience, I've noticed that Macs "always work". At least more so than PC counterparts. With Mac, most things work out of the box. Therefore I would suggest Mac for anyone, new or experienced if you want to keep it simple.
Also, If you want, you can get a command shell and work the Mac as it would be a Linux box as Mac OS X is built upon FreeBSD, a unix-like OS.
But it you only need a computer for gaming, I'd go PC. Atleas this year..
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
lol..
Perhaps I'm going OT now.. Sorry for that..
From my 15 year computer programmer (notice 2x'm') experience, I've noticed that Macs "always work". At least more so than PC counterparts. With Mac, most things work out of the box. Therefore I would suggest Mac for anyone, new or experienced if you want to keep it simple.
Also, If you want, you can get a command shell and work the Mac as it would be a Linux box as Mac OS X is built upon FreeBSD, a unix-like OS.
But it you only need a computer for gaming, I'd go PC. Atleas this year..
Macs are good for developers and people who do photo/music/video editing (or so I heard).
For people who just want to browse the Internet and do word processing, I fail to understand how mac is better. There's no such thing as "it just works" with such trivial tasks, it's just as effortless to do them on Windows (Yes, I've used both Macs and Windows extensively in the past, and MS Office on Windows >> MS Office on Mac). The problem with Windows is that people get overzealous with the plethora of applications and fuck themselves over...
edit:
p.s. ThinkPads are great non-mac laptops: very durable and similar specs would only cost about 2/3 of the price. Naturally, you have the freedom to upgrade your hardware and switch to Linux should you want to.
I'm no ignorant about computers and must say, the MacBook Pro 13.3'' is the best purchase I ever made. Sturdy aluminum build, huge trackpad and battery life, and OS X is a breeze to use. Costs about US$2k here and laughs at a US$4k Vaio.
iMacs are a waste though, unless you're all for the good looks.
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
lol..
Perhaps I'm going OT now.. Sorry for that..
From my 15 year computer programmer (notice 2x'm') experience, I've noticed that Macs "always work". At least more so than PC counterparts. With Mac, most things work out of the box. Therefore I would suggest Mac for anyone, new or experienced if you want to keep it simple.
Also, If you want, you can get a command shell and work the Mac as it would be a Linux box as Mac OS X is built upon FreeBSD, a unix-like OS.
But it you only need a computer for gaming, I'd go PC. Atleas this year..
Macs are good for developers and people who do photo/music/video editing (or so I heard).
Not sure about music or software development since I don't dabble in that field but what I have always seen with photo/video editing is a bit of an old reactionary boys club and a bit of an image thing.
Avid can pretty much achieve the same as Final Cut Pro but when you've spent a large amount of time using Apple products, you basically just keep on using them out of convenience.
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
lol..
Perhaps I'm going OT now.. Sorry for that..
From my 15 year computer programmer (notice 2x'm') experience, I've noticed that Macs "always work". At least more so than PC counterparts. With Mac, most things work out of the box. Therefore I would suggest Mac for anyone, new or experienced if you want to keep it simple.
Also, If you want, you can get a command shell and work the Mac as it would be a Linux box as Mac OS X is built upon FreeBSD, a unix-like OS.
But it you only need a computer for gaming, I'd go PC. Atleas this year..
I think the Macbook Pro is the best laptop out right now since they get literally everything right and you can just buy a second hand one if money is an issue but if you can't get a cheap computer with Windows 7 working properly, you don't deserve to touch a computer - you are literally that dumb. If we're talking about XP, XP is nearly 10 years old so...
The only issue is when you play around with high end parts...that's when shit can go wrong. But hardware these days is so easy to use with so many safeguards (CPU voltage too high = no POST etc) that frying a motherboard or CPU basically requires you to purposely attempt to do it. This however is a hardware problem and since Macs are, well, PCs they suffer from hardware defects as well so...
Macs will never match the PC for gaming until all developers shift from PC to Mac. The thing holding Macs in the gaming department are the drivers and sine you're a developer with 15 years experience, you should know how hard it is to develop good drivers and how expensive it is.
On July 14 2010 22:25 Craton wrote: Or it could be that Macs come with better tools for editing graphics/video and have that as pretty much their only worthwhile purpose?
If you're going to hate on Macs, at least do it right.
I don´t hate Macs, I hate Mac users. Especially that kind of users, who pin that Apple decal on the back of there cars to tell the whole world how ahead and elite they are. Those who keep telling me how much better the battery in MacBooks are. Does Apple produce there own lithium-ion batterys? Of course they don´t. I´am just so sick of people parrotting nonsense arguments and 80% of all Mac users seem to do so -____-
On July 14 2010 23:00 sushi.oi.zz wrote: if your're not a huge gamer, i think personally the operating system for mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>> pc.
Why? Why do you think MacOS is a better OS then every Windows or Linux distribution on the market? Have you ever used any Linux distribution? Can even tell the difference between Linux and Unix without google/wikipedia? I rly don´t want to offend you, but what makes you qualified to tell that "the operating system for mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>> pc"? Why should I run my webserver on MacOS? Why should I develop my website/photoshop-plugin/software on MacOS? Why should I render my 3d Animations on a Mac and not on a much more powerfull PC? There are dozens of non-gaming-related applications, where the PC is equal or even much better.
I perfer PC's because I get more hardware bang for my buck on my laptop. I have a MSI laptop and it was far better than any mac at the same price and somewhat better than other PC's at the same price.
This thing is like the antimac. It is not stylish (it just looks like... a laptop, not even different like a thinkpad), the ergonomics are poorly designed (you can't type without hitting the touchpad, the keyboard flexes alot and feels fragile at first) and the speakers are god awful.
Luckily for me it has processing power including on demand immediate overclock, I have a deathadder mouse and a headset and I've gotten used to the keyboard.
As for the windows vs mac OS, I've never had a problem using windows vista. It crashed on me once but I was playing starcraft, so I will chalk that up to beta issues. I just rebooted and it was fine. It seems easy and intuitive to me, but I'm not a tech slouch (though I'm not as up to date as I was in my youth).
I will admit that Mac's and apple products in general are DAMN SEXY. However, what I don't need right now is sex appeal and what I need right now is performance on a limited budget, being a student. I won't lie - you are paying a premium for the Mac brand but that's not a fundamentally bad thing. I don't need it, but I'm mature enough to recognize that perception has value.
On June 07 2010 12:04 Mykill wrote: UPDATE: I've already purchased a Samsung R480. It was $600 comes with Blu-Ray and Core i3. 4GB RAM. it runs well and so far i've been very happy with it. Could a mod please lock/close this? or it can just turn it into a buying a laptop discussion thread. Thank you for all the replies!!!
Good machine, I bought the R580 for my gf 2 months back or so.
Graphics card isn't too bad, not too great either but it runs SC2 np I think there's different versions out there with diff gfx cards though. I find it to be a nice laptop with a nice design. The only thing I don't really like too much is the keyboard layout but if you use it more often I'm sure you'll get used to it
the arrow keys are annoying and the shift key is a little off. i like how the enter key is still horizontal and long. the functions for volume pause/play are a little lacking but other then that i find it to be very good
On July 14 2010 19:53 Fenris wrote: I have recently been asked the same question as the OP, because my sister is going to uni after the summer and she plans on buying a laptop. I was recommending her to buy a PC, because it's simply a better deal for the same price, as well as no need to adapt to a new interface (we've been using PC since our first desktop).
However the major question is that she is going to the arts uni in London to study fashion jewellry and she is worried that she might need mac. However is a mac really essential for anyone except graphic designers, musicians composing music and photoshop specialists? I have never had experience with real mac users (by real I mean those who could NOT do their job without a mac), as all mac users I know are apple fans, just because it's apple...
Can anyone enlighten me on this subject? Any TL members in arts unies?
That is a question she needs to ask the University. The software she may be required to use may run on Macs only or it could run on PC's only. I would definitely find out beforehand.
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
lol..
Perhaps I'm going OT now.. Sorry for that..
From my 15 year computer programmer (notice 2x'm') experience, I've noticed that Macs "always work". At least more so than PC counterparts. With Mac, most things work out of the box. Therefore I would suggest Mac for anyone, new or experienced if you want to keep it simple.
Also, If you want, you can get a command shell and work the Mac as it would be a Linux box as Mac OS X is built upon FreeBSD, a unix-like OS.
But it you only need a computer for gaming, I'd go PC. Atleas this year..
Macs are good for developers and people who do photo/music/video editing (or so I heard).
For people who just want to browse the Internet and do word processing, I fail to understand how mac is better. There's no such thing as "it just works" with such trivial tasks, it's just as effortless to do them on Windows (Yes, I've used both Macs and Windows extensively in the past, and MS Office on Windows >> MS Office on Mac). The problem with Windows is that people get overzealous with the plethora of applications and fuck themselves over...
edit:
p.s. ThinkPads are great non-mac laptops: very durable and similar specs would only cost about 2/3 of the price. Naturally, you have the freedom to upgrade your hardware and switch to Linux should you want to.
If you make your living fixing computers then you love PC's because they require a whole lot more fixing than macs.
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
That is a bit like saying Camaros are for people that know about cars and Mercedes are for people that have more money than knowledge. There is more to it than that. The 3 main things are the OS/software, build quality, and support. If what you want do to with the machine can only be done with PC or Mac software than that's end of story. If you get a PC with the same quality hardware and support than the price is similar to a Mac. With PC's you have the option of getting cheap hardware and support from India but I wouldn't recommend it.
On July 14 2010 22:25 Craton wrote: Or it could be that Macs come with better tools for editing graphics/video and have that as pretty much their only worthwhile purpose?
If you're going to hate on Macs, at least do it right.
I think even that's too general. Final Cut Pro or certain music editing software, probably yes. I know someone that does professional animation with After Effects and their company's older PCs render faster than the newer Macs. I can't recall the specs off the top of my head, but everyone prefers working on the PCs.
There must be something wrong with their setup. Just the instruction set optimizations on newer CPUs would give the newer machines a huge advantage. Also recent generations of software scale linearly with processors and its far easier to get an 8 core Mac than PC.
I am working with three people right now and there hard drives all died after about 1-3 years! This is on a mac. PC's for me please. The mac for work story doesn't work anymore either because those work programs are mostly available for pc's too now.
On July 15 2010 07:49 ckw wrote: I am working with three people right now and there hard drives all died after about 1-3 years! This is on a mac. PC's for me please. The mac for work story doesn't work anymore either because those work programs are mostly available for pc's too now.
sigh did you know neither apple nor companies like dell/hp make their harddrives? hell, they get their hdd's from the same damn manufacturer. look up reliability of the specific harddrives used instead.
Also, congrats on your purchase Mykill! Hope it works well for you
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
That is a bit like saying Camaros are for people that know about cars and Mercedes are for people that have more money than knowledge. There is more to it than that. The 3 main things are the OS/software, build quality, and support. If what you want do to with the machine can only be done with PC or Mac software than that's end of story. If you get a PC with the same quality hardware and support than the price is similar to a Mac. With PC's you have the option of getting cheap hardware and support from India but I wouldn't recommend it.
If we're talking about laptops, Asus is actually very good at what they do with build quality and support. If we're talking about desktops, you clearly have no clue whatsoever since guys like EVGA and Corsair offer simply amazing customer support and they're actually around the same price as the competition.
You can get a i5 750 desktop with a good case and basically the top of the line parts (EVGA, Corsair, G.Skill, Antec, etc) for less than $900 USD.,,the price isn't remotely similar to a iMac even when you factor in a IPS screen. Not to mention you can reuse the monitor, case, power supply, and video card if you need to upgrade.
On July 15 2010 00:04 LetMeShine wrote: Macs will never match the PC for gaming until all developers shift from PC to Mac. The thing holding Macs in the gaming department are the drivers and sine you're a developer with 15 years experience, you should know how hard it is to develop good drivers and how expensive it is.
I was under the impression that DirectX as a defacto standard rather than OpenGL was a bigger issue holding devs back than drivers. Not to say drivers aren't an issue in the slightest.
On July 14 2010 22:25 Craton wrote: Or it could be that Macs come with better tools for editing graphics/video and have that as pretty much their only worthwhile purpose?
If you're going to hate on Macs, at least do it right.
I don´t hate Macs, I hate Mac users. Especially that kind of users, who pin that Apple decal on the back of there cars to tell the whole world how ahead and elite they are. Those who keep telling me how much better the battery in MacBooks are. Does Apple produce there own lithium-ion batterys? Of course they don´t. I´am just so sick of people parrotting nonsense arguments and 80% of all Mac users seem to do so -____-
On July 14 2010 23:00 sushi.oi.zz wrote: if your're not a huge gamer, i think personally the operating system for mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>> pc.
Why? Why do you think MacOS is a better OS then every Windows or Linux distribution on the market? Have you ever used any Linux distribution? Can even tell the difference between Linux and Unix without google/wikipedia? I rly don´t want to offend you, but what makes you qualified to tell that "the operating system for mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>> pc"? Why should I run my webserver on MacOS? Why should I develop my website/photoshop-plugin/software on MacOS? Why should I render my 3d Animations on a Mac and not on a much more powerfull PC? There are dozens of non-gaming-related applications, where the PC is equal or even much better.
Why should I run my webserver on MacOS?
I don't know if anyone in the thread recommended running their web servers on OSX. If you're talking about a local dev server, then yeah I prefer that to windows because of the environment's similarity to the OS of the server I'm going to be pushing to for production.
Why should I develop my website/photoshop-plugin/software on MacOS?
I can't speak for photoshop-plugin and I lack the beyond-student experience for software dev, but for web dev it's a combination of the similarity between production and dev environments, and the suite of software I have available on OSX. For example textmate is something I can't live without for web dev nowadays and there is nothing that compares on the PC or linux (I have tried, very hard, to find an equal alternative).
Why should I render my 3d Animations on a Mac and not on a much more powerful PC?
I only have PC experience with 3D work, so I don't feel I can answer this question. My impression is that for 3D work they're much the same.
On July 14 2010 21:15 Piy wrote: Mac's are for people who have more money than knowledge about computers. That's not a terribly judgmental thing to say, it's just something to bear in mind.
That is a bit like saying Camaros are for people that know about cars and Mercedes are for people that have more money than knowledge. There is more to it than that. The 3 main things are the OS/software, build quality, and support. If what you want do to with the machine can only be done with PC or Mac software than that's end of story. If you get a PC with the same quality hardware and support than the price is similar to a Mac. With PC's you have the option of getting cheap hardware and support from India but I wouldn't recommend it.
If we're talking about laptops, Asus is actually very good at what they do with build quality and support. If we're talking about desktops, you clearly have no clue whatsoever since guys like EVGA and Corsair offer simply amazing customer support and they're actually around the same price as the competition.
You can get a i5 750 desktop with a good case and basically the top of the line parts (EVGA, Corsair, G.Skill, Antec, etc) for less than $900 USD.,,the price isn't remotely similar to a iMac even when you factor in a IPS screen. Not to mention you can reuse the monitor, case, power supply, and video card if you need to upgrade.
You can't get a desktop with those parts, you can build a desktop with those parts. Huge difference.
Mac hardware is incredibly overpriced. It's usually around 1.5x what the equivalent parts would cost in a PC. That is being very generous. A while back a new Macbook line launched and I got a Asus laptop with the same exact specs as the Macbook Pro (slightly better videocard), and with blu-ray. It cost around $1000 versus $2000.
That being said, its usually very high build quality, at least aesthetically. It also uses a fisher-price operating system that some love.
If you think the OS and aesthetics are worth having a worse computer for your money, go for it. If you're debating that Macs aren't really overpriced, you're factually wrong and a fanboy.
On July 15 2010 13:57 Ndugu wrote: I don't really see why this is such a debate.
Mac hardware is incredibly overpriced. It's usually around 1.5x what the equivalent parts would cost in a PC. That is being very generous. A while back a new Macbook line launched and I got a Asus laptop with the same exact specs as the Macbook Pro (slightly better videocard), and with blu-ray. It cost around $1000 versus $2000.
That being said, its usually very high build quality, at least aesthetically. It also uses a fisher-price operating system that some love.
If you think the OS and aesthetics are worth having a worse computer for your money, go for it. If you're debating that Macs aren't really overpriced, you're factually wrong and a fanboy.
No one is (or at least most people aren't) arguing that you don't pay a significant premium for Macs. But I do hate when people immediately dismiss any advantage macs might have. For some, especially when money isn't as much of a consideration, the superior build quality, screen, touchpad, and OS (yes, it is preference, but OSX does have some very nice things about it) are worth the money and tradeoffs. And for the standard user, excluding gaming, the negatives about macs are very few (basically, price, and OS depending on preference).
On July 15 2010 13:57 Ndugu wrote: I don't really see why this is such a debate.
Mac hardware is incredibly overpriced. It's usually around 1.5x what the equivalent parts would cost in a PC. That is being very generous. A while back a new Macbook line launched and I got a Asus laptop with the same exact specs as the Macbook Pro (slightly better videocard), and with blu-ray. It cost around $1000 versus $2000.
That being said, its usually very high build quality, at least aesthetically. It also uses a fisher-price operating system that some love.
If you think the OS and aesthetics are worth having a worse computer for your money, go for it. If you're debating that Macs aren't really overpriced, you're factually wrong and a fanboy.
No one is (or at least most people aren't) arguing that you don't pay a significant premium for Macs. But I do hate when people immediately dismiss any advantage macs might have. For some, especially when money isn't as much of a consideration, the superior build quality, screen, touchpad, and OS (yes, it is preference, but OSX does have some very nice things about it) are worth the money and tradeoffs. And for the standard user, excluding gaming, the negatives about macs are very few (basically, price, and OS depending on preference).
um add incompatilibity with many many programs and apps, the inability to upgrade parts (which is huge actually) i also hate that macs try to be "different" in very superficial, annoying ways.. for example the placement of the "close buttons" or their retarded mouse, or the placement of the command key (copying and pasting is sooo awkward) and "basically" price? that's a mega disadvantage; it's akin to saying merc s classes's only disadvantage to toyata camry is "just" price. Price makes all the difference...
On July 15 2010 13:57 Ndugu wrote: I don't really see why this is such a debate.
Mac hardware is incredibly overpriced. It's usually around 1.5x what the equivalent parts would cost in a PC. That is being very generous. A while back a new Macbook line launched and I got a Asus laptop with the same exact specs as the Macbook Pro (slightly better videocard), and with blu-ray. It cost around $1000 versus $2000.
That being said, its usually very high build quality, at least aesthetically. It also uses a fisher-price operating system that some love.
If you think the OS and aesthetics are worth having a worse computer for your money, go for it. If you're debating that Macs aren't really overpriced, you're factually wrong and a fanboy.
No one is (or at least most people aren't) arguing that you don't pay a significant premium for Macs. But I do hate when people immediately dismiss any advantage macs might have. For some, especially when money isn't as much of a consideration, the superior build quality, screen, touchpad, and OS (yes, it is preference, but OSX does have some very nice things about it) are worth the money and tradeoffs. And for the standard user, excluding gaming, the negatives about macs are very few (basically, price, and OS depending on preference).
um add incompatilibity with many many programs and apps, the inability to upgrade parts (which is huge actually) i also hate that macs try to be "different" in very superficial, annoying ways.. for example the placement of the "close buttons" or their retarded mouse, or the placement of the command key (copying and pasting is sooo awkward) and "basically" price? that's a mega disadvantage; it's akin to saying merc s classes's only disadvantage to toyata camry is "just" price. Price makes all the difference...
And i do not like ppl that still think you need to use a Mac mouse on a Mac, while you even do not get delivered a mouse with a laptop. The command key is just button right of the original windowskey and it makes you problem? How you play Starcraft if you have even a problem with this
? We intelligent people use "ctrl" key, which is left of the windows. Control C + V is way more natural and easier. Not to mention grouping units (esp. if you want to group to 1 or 2)
On June 07 2010 12:04 Mykill wrote: UPDATE: I've already purchased a Samsung R480. It was $600 comes with Blu-Ray and Core i3. 4GB RAM. it runs well and so far i've been very happy with it.
On July 15 2010 15:29 phosphorylation wrote: ? We intelligent people use "ctrl" key, which is left of the windows. Control C + V is way more natural and easier. Not to mention grouping units (esp. if you want to group to 1 or 2)
?? We (more intelligent) people use the very same control key for grouping units. possible exception is when i#m grouping to 0, because then i use the right one.
Having the commando-key sit next to the spacebar is no problem for me at least, my thumb is easily flexible enough to switch to it while my index/middle finger presses x, c or v.
On July 15 2010 13:57 Ndugu wrote: I don't really see why this is such a debate.
Mac hardware is incredibly overpriced. It's usually around 1.5x what the equivalent parts would cost in a PC. That is being very generous. A while back a new Macbook line launched and I got a Asus laptop with the same exact specs as the Macbook Pro (slightly better videocard), and with blu-ray. It cost around $1000 versus $2000.
That being said, its usually very high build quality, at least aesthetically. It also uses a fisher-price operating system that some love.
If you think the OS and aesthetics are worth having a worse computer for your money, go for it. If you're debating that Macs aren't really overpriced, you're factually wrong and a fanboy.
No one is (or at least most people aren't) arguing that you don't pay a significant premium for Macs. But I do hate when people immediately dismiss any advantage macs might have. For some, especially when money isn't as much of a consideration, the superior build quality, screen, touchpad, and OS (yes, it is preference, but OSX does have some very nice things about it) are worth the money and tradeoffs. And for the standard user, excluding gaming, the negatives about macs are very few (basically, price, and OS depending on preference).
um add incompatilibity with many many programs and apps, the inability to upgrade parts (which is huge actually) i also hate that macs try to be "different" in very superficial, annoying ways.. for example the placement of the "close buttons" or their retarded mouse, or the placement of the command key (copying and pasting is sooo awkward) and "basically" price? that's a mega disadvantage; it's akin to saying merc s classes's only disadvantage to toyata camry is "just" price. Price makes all the difference...
Incompatability is an issue, but it's not nearly as big of one as some make it seem. I've had a mac for over 2 years now, and really the only times I've ever had compatibility issues was when I wanted to play games.
Upgrading parts is mostly for gamers. Really, you're not going to be needing to upgrade parts much, especially not on a laptop. And you can generally resell macs if you take good care of them.
Also, my mac's touchpad is better than any touchpad I've ever used or seen. Period. It is absolutely amazing, and honestly, I'd take a lot of those tradeoffs between a PC vs mac simply because I don't think I can go back to the touchpads I've seen on pretty much every non-mac laptop. And before you say it, I'm sure that there are great multitouch touchpads being put out there recently, but they're very rare and macs have had them for a while; definitely when I got this computer, the touchpad just absolutely blew me away.
I love my mac keyboard. And the command key actually feels much better to me now (in reality, it's just a getting used to it thing). In fact, I find it awkward to hit the control key on window's keyboards. The difference is that you hit the control key with your pinky, and you hit the command key with your thumb. It might just be the way that I angle my hand, but my left thumb is usually hovering over the left side of the spacebar anyways, and moving it to hit the command key (about .5-1 inches) is very natural and easy for me.
I'm just saying that some people here apparently think that everyone who buys a mac is an idiot and that no informed person would ever do so. That's not true. Macs have some distinct advantages that few other companies can offer. And yes, you're going to pay a premium (though that comparison was a bit of a stretch don't you think? it's not quite up to the price difference between a mercedes and a toyota), but for some people it's worth it.
If you have a lot of time, not a lot of money, can build your own computer and do your own tech support and you play a lot of games then a PC is clearly the way to go. That's a minuscule percent of the population.
i think mac will get better as more software developers make good software that also work in mac, but for now PC is wayyy more compatible with a lot more stuff.
Here at my internship, everyone with a MAC has their hard-drive die almost every couple of years. Macs have a purpose but in my opinion it's strictly business. They are expensive and not worth it, I could build a faster PC for less than half the price.
EPT
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