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On July 29 2011 05:20 Aelfric wrote:
Is critical thinking needed, should it be taught in school?
It can't hurt but I wouldn't expect huge results. In most situations it's not that people lack the information and skills to make an informed decision. It's just that they are unwilling to abandon their beliefs or are emotionally invested in some other way.
There are ways of rationalizing beliefs that aren't obviously incorrect. At worst you can drag out an argument until the other side gets bored. To me it's more a matter of attitude. If someone isn't actually open to what you are saying in the first place it is extremely unlikely they will change their minds.
At the same time a good argument isn't necessarily the one that is the most logical or comprehensive, but the one that makes the other person most comfortable or willing to consider your position.
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Netherlands1788 Posts
On July 29 2011 08:24 Diks wrote:Yeah those videos are mainly educational. Might be a good idea to teach critical thinking at school, as i think that the more time you pass under a belief, the more difficult it will be to realise the fundations of the belief are based on suppositions. I watched the vods, nothing too new for me except the vod about coincidences. I really should have followed my stat's class  Indeed, critical thinking and openmindedness in relation to scepticism should be a requirement at every school, no child should pass through it's childhood without ever learning how to think critically about what it has been taught by it's parents, family, friends and every other source of information.
This is such an important skill to have, we have all these people completely ingrained into their own beliefs without questioning or challenging them, just blindly following them. And religion is absolutely not the only cause for this, every person can become stuck in his own values, opinions or beliefs.
I just find it appalling that there is no protection for childs from indoctrination, especially since children are so prone to a "it must be true because <insert authorititative person> said it" style of reasoning, which, if not remedied becomes part of their personality.
I was brought up in a moderately Christian way in my early childhood, going to a Christian school and I never doubted the existence of Jesus and God, simply because no one ever told me to think critically. Luckily for me, my parents were not really religious, it faded away over the years, and slowly I managed to start thinking about everything. Imagine if my parents would've been truly religious and would've sent me to a Christian high school too, I don't know if I'd been as intellectually honest as I am now.
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On July 30 2011 07:05 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 05:20 Aelfric wrote:
Is critical thinking needed, should it be taught in school? It can't hurt but I wouldn't expect huge results. In most situations it's not that people lack the information and skills to make an informed decision. It's just that they are unwilling to abandon their beliefs or are emotionally invested in some other way. There are ways of rationalizing beliefs that aren't obviously incorrect. At worst you can drag out an argument until the other side gets bored. To me it's more a matter of attitude. If someone isn't actually open to what you are saying in the first place it is extremely unlikely they will change their minds. At the same time a good argument isn't necessarily the one that is the most logical or comprehensive, but the one that makes the other person most comfortable or willing to consider your position.
This post has a great deal of merit. I always drudge discussing matters of rationality and logic, despite being well educated. I can't handle discussions on atheist belief, for example, despite being an atheist.
People "think" they are logical or rational, but they are still stupid as fuck, and crazy wrong. It's almost as bad as name dropping. Have some stupid point you made up? Don't worry, just include "logical" somewhere in your post, and everyone has to take you seriously.
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Very interesting videos. He articulates a logical though process in a very interesting way.
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On July 30 2011 07:05 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 05:20 Aelfric wrote:
Is critical thinking needed, should it be taught in school? It can't hurt but I wouldn't expect huge results. In most situations it's not that people lack the information and skills to make an informed decision. It's just that they are unwilling to abandon their beliefs or are emotionally invested in some other way. There are ways of rationalizing beliefs that aren't obviously incorrect. At worst you can drag out an argument until the other side gets bored. To me it's more a matter of attitude. If someone isn't actually open to what you are saying in the first place it is extremely unlikely they will change their minds. At the same time a good argument isn't necessarily the one that is the most logical or comprehensive, but the one that makes the other person most comfortable or willing to consider your position.
You're so right about that and i think it may be because of some ancient biological gene which help us in some way but can't be sure about that.
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On July 30 2011 18:40 Aelfric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 07:05 hypercube wrote:On July 29 2011 05:20 Aelfric wrote:
Is critical thinking needed, should it be taught in school? It can't hurt but I wouldn't expect huge results. In most situations it's not that people lack the information and skills to make an informed decision. It's just that they are unwilling to abandon their beliefs or are emotionally invested in some other way. There are ways of rationalizing beliefs that aren't obviously incorrect. At worst you can drag out an argument until the other side gets bored. To me it's more a matter of attitude. If someone isn't actually open to what you are saying in the first place it is extremely unlikely they will change their minds. At the same time a good argument isn't necessarily the one that is the most logical or comprehensive, but the one that makes the other person most comfortable or willing to consider your position. You're so right about that and i think it may be because of some ancient biological gene which help us in some way but can't be sure about that.
I think science and critical thinking could be taught a lot better in schools. Particularly at the elementary level I think it needs to be asserted that science is not simply a subject of study but a way of thinking and coming to new information through a way of critical thinking. The scientific methods for research aren't really given a proper treatment until college and I think it's important younger students learn methods for obtaining valid information or at least differentiating between scientific and non-scientific studies/data.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On July 30 2011 07:49 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 08:24 Diks wrote:Yeah those videos are mainly educational. Might be a good idea to teach critical thinking at school, as i think that the more time you pass under a belief, the more difficult it will be to realise the fundations of the belief are based on suppositions. I watched the vods, nothing too new for me except the vod about coincidences. I really should have followed my stat's class Indeed, critical thinking and openmindedness in relation to scepticism should be a requirement at every school, no child should pass through it's childhood without ever learning how to think critically about what it has been taught by it's parents, family, friends and every other source of information. This is such an important skill to have, we have all these people completely ingrained into their own beliefs without questioning or challenging them, just blindly following them. And religion is absolutely not the only cause for this, every person can become stuck in his own values, opinions or beliefs. I just find it appalling that there is no protection for childs from indoctrination, especially since children are so prone to a "it must be true because <insert authorititative person> said it" style of reasoning, which, if not remedied becomes part of their personality. I was brought up in a moderately Christian way in my early childhood, going to a Christian school and I never doubted the existence of Jesus and God, simply because no one ever told me to think critically. Luckily for me, my parents were not really religious, it faded away over the years, and slowly I managed to start thinking about everything. Imagine if my parents would've been truly religious and would've sent me to a Christian high school too, I don't know if I'd been as intellectually honest as I am now. Friend, so what does your intellectual honesty say about all the big questions in the world, e.g. What happens to us after we die? Why are we here? Why are humans so capable of loving each other, yet somehow mess things up at every turn?
If you have a worldview which answers those questions well, then you have been honest to yourself.
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11589 Posts
On July 30 2011 20:03 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 07:49 Thorakh wrote:On July 29 2011 08:24 Diks wrote:Yeah those videos are mainly educational. Might be a good idea to teach critical thinking at school, as i think that the more time you pass under a belief, the more difficult it will be to realise the fundations of the belief are based on suppositions. I watched the vods, nothing too new for me except the vod about coincidences. I really should have followed my stat's class Indeed, critical thinking and openmindedness in relation to scepticism should be a requirement at every school, no child should pass through it's childhood without ever learning how to think critically about what it has been taught by it's parents, family, friends and every other source of information. This is such an important skill to have, we have all these people completely ingrained into their own beliefs without questioning or challenging them, just blindly following them. And religion is absolutely not the only cause for this, every person can become stuck in his own values, opinions or beliefs. I just find it appalling that there is no protection for childs from indoctrination, especially since children are so prone to a "it must be true because <insert authorititative person> said it" style of reasoning, which, if not remedied becomes part of their personality. I was brought up in a moderately Christian way in my early childhood, going to a Christian school and I never doubted the existence of Jesus and God, simply because no one ever told me to think critically. Luckily for me, my parents were not really religious, it faded away over the years, and slowly I managed to start thinking about everything. Imagine if my parents would've been truly religious and would've sent me to a Christian high school too, I don't know if I'd been as intellectually honest as I am now. Friend, so what does your intellectual honesty say about all the big questions in the world, e.g. What happens to us after we die? Why are we here? Why are humans so capable of loving each other, yet somehow mess things up at every turn? If you have a worldview which answers those questions well, then you have been honest to yourself.
It is impossible to be intellectually honest and have an answer to the question of "what happens after we die?" No one living can know what death (or the 'afterlife') is like, so it is literally impossible to be honest with yourself about what you know if you claim to know what happens after you die.
It's also quite difficult to fathom an empirically or reasonably verifiable purpose to the existence of human beings as a whole. We can identify purposes for parts of us, but those purposes do not necessarily imply that we are existentially bound to them. For all we know, there may be no grand purpose, but that has no effect on whether or not we are intellectually honest with ourselves.
The last question can be speculated about endlessly, but also has no real relevance to the idea of intellectual honesty. Love has nothing to do with intellectual honesty. Intellectual honesty is the concept that I am not allowing myself to believe that something is true/false when I have valid reasoning to believe that it is false/true. It is also, then, the idea that one will not believe that something is true/false if there is not enough evidence to prove it either way. Intellectual honesty is not lying to yourself about what you do or do not know to be logically true.
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On May 02 2010 08:57 Lixler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2010 08:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
This is a dangerous road to scientism What's wrong with that? User was temp banned for this post.
Why was he banned for this?
Edit: Answered below.
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I remember watching these videos two years ago. They made me think more about other people's motivations in general. If you think about it, what motivates most people when they are arguing for one side of a debate? Humans are emotional creatures really...
@arbitrageur
TL.net Bot TL.net. May 12 2010 23:07. Posts 3 PM Profile Quote #
Lixler was just temp banned for 30 days by Kennigit.
That account was created on 2010-03-03 03:20:07 and had 53 posts.
Reason: Really obnoxious poster. Lose your attitude.
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Netherlands1788 Posts
On July 30 2011 20:03 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 07:49 Thorakh wrote:On July 29 2011 08:24 Diks wrote:Yeah those videos are mainly educational. Might be a good idea to teach critical thinking at school, as i think that the more time you pass under a belief, the more difficult it will be to realise the fundations of the belief are based on suppositions. I watched the vods, nothing too new for me except the vod about coincidences. I really should have followed my stat's class Indeed, critical thinking and openmindedness in relation to scepticism should be a requirement at every school, no child should pass through it's childhood without ever learning how to think critically about what it has been taught by it's parents, family, friends and every other source of information. This is such an important skill to have, we have all these people completely ingrained into their own beliefs without questioning or challenging them, just blindly following them. And religion is absolutely not the only cause for this, every person can become stuck in his own values, opinions or beliefs. I just find it appalling that there is no protection for childs from indoctrination, especially since children are so prone to a "it must be true because <insert authorititative person> said it" style of reasoning, which, if not remedied becomes part of their personality. I was brought up in a moderately Christian way in my early childhood, going to a Christian school and I never doubted the existence of Jesus and God, simply because no one ever told me to think critically. Luckily for me, my parents were not really religious, it faded away over the years, and slowly I managed to start thinking about everything. Imagine if my parents would've been truly religious and would've sent me to a Christian high school too, I don't know if I'd been as intellectually honest as I am now. Friend, so what does your intellectual honesty say about all the big questions in the world, e.g. What happens to us after we die? Why are we here? Why are humans so capable of loving each other, yet somehow mess things up at every turn? If you have a worldview which answers those questions well, then you have been honest to yourself. I beg your pardon? What you just wrote here has nothing to do with intellectual honesty. Intellectual honesty is recognizing flaws in your reasoning (about any possible subject) and being man enough to dismiss that reasoning, instead of turning a blind eye, even if you for a very long time thought your opinion was sound.
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I'm eternally grateful to my parents (particularly my mother) for not pushing their religious beliefs on me. The furthest they ever went was to have me baptized as a baby, just in case I wanted to pursue a Christian path when I was ready to make the decision myself. Instead of indoctrinating me, like so many families do, they let me make up my own mind, choose my own path and taught me the skills I needed to do so. Not only did they give me life, they gave me intellectual freedom, and I believe that to be a critically important element into the growth of a person. This literally only just dawned on me too, after reading part of this thread yesterday and mulling it over, and I'll have to remember to thank them in person when they visit in September.
One of my bigger disappointments with society today is there's this idea floating around that people get indoctrinated away from religion, where in reality it's the exact opposite. Sadly, the people that need these skills the most, are already too-far gone to look at these videos as anything more than a form of indoctrination.
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On July 30 2011 10:53 ToxNub wrote:People "think" they are logical or rational, but they are still stupid as fuck, and crazy wrong.
This has a name: Dunning-Kruger effect. People who overestimate their own intellectual capacity but are too stupid to realize they are wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
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On July 29 2011 05:20 Aelfric wrote:
Is critical thinking needed, should it be taught in school?
How exactly do you propose we teach critical thinking to those born without that ability? Is there any methodology that could apply to teach people to learn how to ask questions before jumping into conclusions? If there is, I would love for to point me to it. To my current understanding, it's unfortunately impossible to teach critical thinking. You're either born with it or not.
Does being skeptic a good aproach to moral related discussions?
Can morality be objective?
Objectively, there is no such thing as morals. Morals are a made up idea by people who are too afraid of reality, just like god.
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On July 31 2011 12:44 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 05:20 Aelfric wrote:
Is critical thinking needed, should it be taught in school?
How exactly do you propose we teach critical thinking to those born without that ability? Is there any methodology that could apply to teach people to learn how to ask questions before jumping into conclusions? If there is, I would love for to point me to it. To my current understanding, it's unfortunately impossible to teach critical thinking. You're either born with it or not.
What reasoning/evidence do you have for thinking that critical thinking is something you're born with?
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On July 30 2011 21:42 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2010 08:57 Lixler wrote:On May 02 2010 08:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
This is a dangerous road to scientism What's wrong with that? User was temp banned for this post. Why was he banned for this? Religious mods perhaps?
derailing the thread probably.
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Critical thinking is taught in schools. at least the in the district I grew up. Almost every text book has "critical thinking exercises" Also, many of my teachers throughout school, even in college deeply emphasized critical thinking, Some even saying they were more concerned with teaching critical thinking than the primary subject material. I've only watched a few of these videos, but I love them. : )
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critical thinking is idiopathic. the learner has to develope his own critical thinking skills; you can't teach it.
as for skepticism, it's i think it's necessary to use to filter out the idiocy.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On July 30 2011 23:01 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 20:03 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On July 30 2011 07:49 Thorakh wrote:On July 29 2011 08:24 Diks wrote:Yeah those videos are mainly educational. Might be a good idea to teach critical thinking at school, as i think that the more time you pass under a belief, the more difficult it will be to realise the fundations of the belief are based on suppositions. I watched the vods, nothing too new for me except the vod about coincidences. I really should have followed my stat's class Indeed, critical thinking and openmindedness in relation to scepticism should be a requirement at every school, no child should pass through it's childhood without ever learning how to think critically about what it has been taught by it's parents, family, friends and every other source of information. This is such an important skill to have, we have all these people completely ingrained into their own beliefs without questioning or challenging them, just blindly following them. And religion is absolutely not the only cause for this, every person can become stuck in his own values, opinions or beliefs. I just find it appalling that there is no protection for childs from indoctrination, especially since children are so prone to a "it must be true because <insert authorititative person> said it" style of reasoning, which, if not remedied becomes part of their personality. I was brought up in a moderately Christian way in my early childhood, going to a Christian school and I never doubted the existence of Jesus and God, simply because no one ever told me to think critically. Luckily for me, my parents were not really religious, it faded away over the years, and slowly I managed to start thinking about everything. Imagine if my parents would've been truly religious and would've sent me to a Christian high school too, I don't know if I'd been as intellectually honest as I am now. Friend, so what does your intellectual honesty say about all the big questions in the world, e.g. What happens to us after we die? Why are we here? Why are humans so capable of loving each other, yet somehow mess things up at every turn? If you have a worldview which answers those questions well, then you have been honest to yourself. I beg your pardon? What you just wrote here has nothing to do with intellectual honesty. Intellectual honesty is recognizing flaws in your reasoning (about any possible subject) and being man enough to dismiss that reasoning, instead of turning a blind eye, even if you for a very long time thought your opinion was sound. apologies to you thorakh for sparking some tempers.
I will rephrase myself. So the premise here is that kids should not be "indoctrinated" with anything, but given the ability to decide for themselves what to believe, how to think and how to reason. So given that you have made your choice to reject Jesus, I was just wondering what kind of answers your "critical thinking" has since provided, to the biggest questions which we face in our lives. Namely why we are here, what is death, what happens after death etc.
I totally agree with you - every kid needs to be taught: Think before you believe. Investigate, test the evidence and try things out before you judge it. Don't just say F does not = MA if you haven't done a basic physics experiment showing just that. In the same vein, don't just say "Jesus is a myth" without doing any kind of research. "Seek and you shall find". This applies to any kind of knowledge, knowledge of God included.
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I don't know about a lot of these videos; they seem to be preaching to the choir (Irony of statement is realized, thank you.) There's no way to convince someone who has accepted what they think as true otherwise, and FRANKLY there's absolutely no point in trying to convince them otherwise. Making these 1-sided rants on youtube does nothing for convincing your everyday christian/muslim/jew. They don't see these kinds of videos simply because they don't look for them. (I also find it a little bit annoying that he only debates Christian perspectives. Perhaps it's because they're the most aggressive about their views?)
I just have never seen the reasoning behind trying to convince people why they're wrong and why they should think the way I do. It simply doesn't work. Not only is evidence impossible to fight, but so is faith. It's a fruitless battle trying to convince a life-long Christian that everything they based their life on is completely false because of equally absurd conditions as to what is possible and what is not.
I avoid these types of questions at all costs. Whether or not there's some guy with a beard looking over me has NEVER been a question that's constantly on my mind. And if it's not important to me what I think about a god, why should it be important what other people think about him? It's much better just to live and let live in my opinion. I don't need to look for some sort of meaning to my life, but I don't want to go around ruining it for people whose strength relies on their faith.
I have a grandfather who looks after his sister with Parkinson's and his wife with Alzheimer's. He's a devout Christian and his faith in God keeps him going every day (That and his love for tinkering and inventing things  ). It's hard to argue with someone who is happy with their life as it is.
As a closing note, that reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbes strip. Enjoy!
http://dieudo.dyndns.org/w/images/thumb/Calvin_Hobbes.png/180px-Calvin_Hobbes.png
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