On October 01 2011 00:31 DreamChaser wrote: I wish drug addicts would look at where their drug supplies are coming from i could see this is a tool to cure people of addiction, but i wouldn't know i've never been addicted.
When your addicted, moral problems are the least of your worries.
Same reason why most people don't think about if their beef they are eating was treated properly before being slaughtered for feeding purpose. (im not a vegetarian, i am aware there are moral issues all the time involving our lives though)
On October 01 2011 01:01 furymonkey wrote: You're just trying to create a tunnel vision to supports your view, when it fact it's a whole lot of factors. For example I could say commodity such as money is where the real problem, or that they are simply an criminal organization that lives off on illegal means.
Yes, Mafia boomed during the prohibition era, but they did not fade away after that period, it was the depression and government's initiative that put a dent to their size.
Many of you only denounce the horrible events at Mexico because it happened to support your interests (legalization of drugs), but not because Mexicans has to live with the powerful criminal organizations around them. When the drug money starts to disappear, they will find other means to continue earn money, just like the mafia, and the Mexicans will continue to live in fear.
But the biggest income they generate is trough drug-money. If drug-money is lost trough legalization you can't offset it through other means like kidnapping or extortion. Even if the cartels kidnap every mexican they couldn't offset the loss of drug-money. With the loss of the big money less people get involved because it's not as profitable as before, less money= less weaponry, with less money the problem scales down in size and becomes more managable. The underlying factors of widespread poverty and corruption still remain, but everything's better than living in a warzone and you can start solving the socioeconomic factors. The biggest thing to acknowledge is, that the problem starts in the USA.
I think that drugs are their method right now, but what's to stop them from getting into human trafficking afterwards? Or weapons smuggling? There's money in both of those. I'm of the opinion that these underground organizations will continue to survive through different means, and that the only way to stop them is a sustained police/army effort. There's no shortage of illegal activities that pay, and the only way to deal with these violent individuals is to hit them in the mouth.
Corruption and socio-economic factors are definitely an issue, but those are tied to their economy more-so than the drug trade imho. As the economy grows, people will be drawn to safer, honest positions. But if your regular Joe Mexican can't get to his office job without getting bombed by a cartel, there's no point. I understand that we can just argue in circles over this, but this is my personal belief : /
On October 01 2011 01:01 furymonkey wrote: You're just trying to create a tunnel vision to supports your view, when it fact it's a whole lot of factors. For example I could say commodity such as money is where the real problem, or that they are simply an criminal organization that lives off on illegal means.
Yes, Mafia boomed during the prohibition era, but they did not fade away after that period, it was the depression and government's initiative that put a dent to their size.
Many of you only denounce the horrible events at Mexico because it happened to support your interests (legalization of drugs), but not because Mexicans has to live with the powerful criminal organizations around them. When the drug money starts to disappear, they will find other means to continue earn money, just like the mafia, and the Mexicans will continue to live in fear.
But the biggest income they generate is trough drug-money. If drug-money is lost trough legalization you can't offset it through other means like kidnapping or extortion. Even if the cartels kidnap every mexican they couldn't offset the loss of drug-money. With the loss of the big money less people get involved because it's not as profitable as before, less money= less weaponry, with less money the problem scales down in size and becomes more managable. The underlying factors of widespread poverty and corruption still remain, but everything's better than living in a warzone and you can start solving the socioeconomic factors. The biggest thing to acknowledge is, that the problem starts in the USA.
I think that drugs are their method right now, but what's to stop them from getting into human trafficking afterwards? Or weapons smuggling? There's money in both of those. I'm of the opinion that these underground organizations will continue to survive through different means, and that the only way to stop them is a sustained police/army effort. There's no shortage of illegal activities that pay, and the only way to deal with these violent individuals is to hit them in the mouth.
Corruption and socio-economic factors are definitely an issue, but those are tied to their economy more-so than the drug trade imho. As the economy grows, people will be drawn to safer, honest positions. But if your regular Joe Mexican can't get to his office job without getting bombed by a cartel, there's no point. I understand that we can just argue in circles over this, but this is my personal belief : /
Right, the Mexicans currently smuggling drugs will most likely resort to other illegal means if/when drugs are legalized and regulated. Everyone has to make a living right? Anyway, I agree that IF the economy grows, these people will indeed be drawn to more convenient and safe careers.
On October 01 2011 00:32 furymonkey wrote: Although drugs are the main topic of discussion, but by legalize drugs does not solve whatever problem Mexicans are dealing right now, because you're still putting them out of business. The cartel will just turn to something else they do best, extortion, kidnapping. You're just creating a different problem, essentially the same, because they won't go down without a fight.
Actually, most of the crimines commited in Mexico are because of money, and drug-dealing is by far the most lucrative method of earning it available to poor people.
I have spoken to men who thought about entering the "business" and their general line of thought is that they can help selling or distributing drugs for say, 2 years and get out after that time, during which they will have made a fortune, and enough to live comfortably for decades,
It is a risky job though, and chances are you'll get yourself killed because of all the fighting going on between criminal organizations.
On October 01 2011 01:01 furymonkey wrote: You're just trying to create a tunnel vision to supports your view, when it fact it's a whole lot of factors. For example I could say commodity such as money is where the real problem, or that they are simply an criminal organization that lives off on illegal means.
Yes, Mafia boomed during the prohibition era, but they did not fade away after that period, it was the depression and government's initiative that put a dent to their size.
Many of you only denounce the horrible events at Mexico because it happened to support your interests (legalization of drugs), but not because Mexicans has to live with the powerful criminal organizations around them. When the drug money starts to disappear, they will find other means to continue earn money, just like the mafia, and the Mexicans will continue to live in fear.
But the biggest income they generate is trough drug-money. If drug-money is lost trough legalization you can't offset it through other means like kidnapping or extortion. Even if the cartels kidnap every mexican they couldn't offset the loss of drug-money. With the loss of the big money less people get involved because it's not as profitable as before, less money= less weaponry, with less money the problem scales down in size and becomes more managable. The underlying factors of widespread poverty and corruption still remain, but everything's better than living in a warzone and you can start solving the socioeconomic factors. The biggest thing to acknowledge is, that the problem starts in the USA.
I think that drugs are their method right now, but what's to stop them from getting into human trafficking afterwards? Or weapons smuggling? There's money in both of those. I'm of the opinion that these underground organizations will continue to survive through different means, and that the only way to stop them is a sustained police/army effort. There's no shortage of illegal activities that pay, and the only way to deal with these violent individuals is to hit them in the mouth.
Corruption and socio-economic factors are definitely an issue, but those are tied to their economy more-so than the drug trade imho. As the economy grows, people will be drawn to safer, honest positions. But if your regular Joe Mexican can't get to his office job without getting bombed by a cartel, there's no point. I understand that we can just argue in circles over this, but this is my personal belief : /
Yes, but as i said, in other illegal activities that they can pursue besides drug business there isn't that much money involved. Human trafficking is profitable, but nowhere near as profitable as the drug business.
Large portion of the money that comes to the Cartels is through Drugs but they also are expanding in other areas such as counterfeiting, even investing the stock markets of the world and yes they even operate in human trafficking.
MEXICO CITY (AP) — Mexican marines say they seized more than 4 tons of marijuana, arrested 36 cartel members and killed 11 others during five days of raids through the violent border state of Tamaulipas.
Those arrested include the alleged head of the Gulf Cartel in the town of Miguel Aleman, who was captured after a gunfight in which 10 cartel members died. The marijuana was found in two locations.
Marine spokesman Jose Luis Vergara said in a press conference in Matamoros that marines also seized 251 hand grenades and 35 grenade launchers.
The Gulf Cartel was once the dominant trafficking network in the area but is now in a war with the surging Zetas cartel for control.
Mexico’s presidential elections are less than a year away, and President Felipe Calderon has begun to defend his controversial record in the war on drugs.
Mexican law only allows a president to serve a single, six-year term. So Calderon won’t be running again. But he has his legacy to protect, and he needs to support his conservative National Action Party.
Calderon has staked his presidency on the war on drugs, pushing ahead with a plan to violently confront the cartels even as many Mexicans have become fed up with the bloodshed.
In many ways, the upcoming election will be seen as a referendum on Calderon’s approach to combating the cartels.
MONTERREY, Mexico (AP) — Mexican authorities said Thursday they have detained a woman who allegedly worked as a top financial operator for the Zetas drug cartel, and collared two Americans with $950,000 in cash in a separate bust.
Mexican marines detained alleged Zetas "accountant" Carmen del Consuelo Saenz two days ago in the Gulf coast state of Veracruz, along 10 other alleged Zetas members.
Saenz, 29, was allegedly in charge of receiving proceeds from drug sales, pirated goods, kidnappings and extortions in five southern states of Mexico, said Navy spokesman Jose Luis Vergara.
Saenz used the illicit proceeds to bribe authorities and meet the drug gang's payroll, Vergara said.
The Zetas are a hyper-violent drug cartel that is based along Mexico's Gulf coast, but who have recently expanded further into the interior of the country.
In a separate bust at an airport just west of Mexico City, Mexican federal police said Thursday they had detained two American men for attempting to fly out of Mexico with $950,000 in undeclared cash in a suitcase.
On October 01 2011 01:01 furymonkey wrote: You're just trying to create a tunnel vision to supports your view, when it fact it's a whole lot of factors. For example I could say commodity such as money is where the real problem, or that they are simply an criminal organization that lives off on illegal means.
Yes, Mafia boomed during the prohibition era, but they did not fade away after that period, it was the depression and government's initiative that put a dent to their size.
Many of you only denounce the horrible events at Mexico because it happened to support your interests (legalization of drugs), but not because Mexicans has to live with the powerful criminal organizations around them. When the drug money starts to disappear, they will find other means to continue earn money, just like the mafia, and the Mexicans will continue to live in fear.
Basically your argument is "Legalization won't completely kill the cartels, only weaken them. Because it is not an instant solution it is not worth doing." What should we do instead? Continue the current policy of fighting the war on drugs? The Mexicans are already living in fear. There's no industry anywhere nearly as profitable as the illegal drug industry that the cartels have access to. The Mexican government would still continue its fight against the cartels, being that they are criminal organizations who commit far more than drug related crimes. There's no denying that it would severely weaken them, something our current policy has failed to do.
On October 01 2011 01:01 furymonkey wrote: You're just trying to create a tunnel vision to supports your view, when it fact it's a whole lot of factors. For example I could say commodity such as money is where the real problem, or that they are simply an criminal organization that lives off on illegal means.
Yes, Mafia boomed during the prohibition era, but they did not fade away after that period, it was the depression and government's initiative that put a dent to their size.
Many of you only denounce the horrible events at Mexico because it happened to support your interests (legalization of drugs), but not because Mexicans has to live with the powerful criminal organizations around them. When the drug money starts to disappear, they will find other means to continue earn money, just like the mafia, and the Mexicans will continue to live in fear.
Legalizing drugs will reduce the power of drug cartels, but will not eliminate it. Therefore it is not worth doing.
This, my friends, is a kind of nirvana fallacy. The above post carries with it the assumption that there is a perfect solution which will eliminate crime in Mexico, and since the alternative does not live up to that it should not be considered.
On October 01 2011 01:01 furymonkey wrote: You're just trying to create a tunnel vision to supports your view, when it fact it's a whole lot of factors. For example I could say commodity such as money is where the real problem, or that they are simply an criminal organization that lives off on illegal means.
Yes, Mafia boomed during the prohibition era, but they did not fade away after that period, it was the depression and government's initiative that put a dent to their size.
Many of you only denounce the horrible events at Mexico because it happened to support your interests (legalization of drugs), but not because Mexicans has to live with the powerful criminal organizations around them. When the drug money starts to disappear, they will find other means to continue earn money, just like the mafia, and the Mexicans will continue to live in fear.
Legalizing drugs will reduce the power of drug cartels, but will not eliminate it. Therefore it is not worth doing.
This, my friends, is a kind of nirvana fallacy. The above post carries with it the assumption that there is a perfect solution which will eliminate crime in Mexico, and since the alternative does not live up to that it should not be considered.
I'm in favour of legalization, and I completely realize that the cartels won't just disappear, but reducing their power is completely worth doing.... The drugs will become safer for users, which will reduce deaths, cartels power will be reduced, which will reduce deaths, drugs would be looked at as more of an health issue then something to put people into prison for (which will only make their addiction stronger if anything, and make them into hardened criminals in many cases), which again will reduce deaths. Combined with the fact that the governments of our countries will have extra funds due to the tax-increase and the fact that they don't have to fight the drug war. So they can put a lot of that money into fighting the real criminals.
You have to look at the entire picture, not just the fact that the cartels will still be there.
An international group of online hackers is warning a Mexican drug cartel to release one of its members, kidnapped from a street protest, or it will publish the identities and addresses of the syndicate's associates, from corrupt police to taxi drivers, as well as reveal the syndicates' businesses.
The vow is a bizarre cyber twist to Mexico's ongoing drug war, as a group that has no guns is squaring off against the Zetas, a cartel blamed for thousands of deaths as well as introducing beheadings and other frightening brutality.
"You made a huge mistake by taking one of us. Release him," says a masked man in a video posted online on behalf of the group, Anonymous.
"We cannot defend ourselves with a weapon … but we can do this with their cars, homes, bars, brothels and everything else in their possession," says the man, who is wearing a suit and tie.
"It won't be difficult; we all know who they are and where they are located," says the man, who underlines the group's international ties by speaking Spanish with the accent of a Spaniard while using Mexican slang.
On October 30 2011 10:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: ...who underlines the group's international ties by speaking Spanish with the accent of a Spaniard while using Mexican slang.
LOL.
They're actually using Loquendo, a speech synthesis software that uses spanish accent.
PHOENIX — Arizona authorities have disrupted a Mexican drug cartel's distribution network, arresting dozens of smugglers in dismantling a ring responsible for carrying more than $33 million worth of drugs through the state's western desert every month, officials said Monday.
The ring is believed be tied to the Sinaloa cartel – Mexico's most powerful – and responsible for smuggling more than 3.3 million pounds of marijuana, 20,000 pounds of cocaine and 10,000 pounds of heroin into the U.S. through Arizona over the past five years, according to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
Their efforts in that time generated an estimated $2 billion, according to ICE.
ICE's Homeland Security Investigations and the Pinal County Sheriff's Office arrested 22 suspected smugglers tied to the ring on Thursday, the latest of three busts they say have brought it down following a 17-month investigation dubbed "Operation Pipeline Express."
We need to start attacking the clients of the cartels. It's the one thing that can put a dent in them. Legalization will only increase the power of the cartels, but MAY reduce violence in Mexico (the Zetas aren't reassuring me on that last part, though). Fighting them doesn't work as the profit margin in drugs makes seizing drugs, guns and money and killing and fighting their men worthless due to the sheer amount of profit the bring in. The one thing that can work is reducing their customer count. Less demand means less sales, thus less funding and when there is less funding, the cartel as a whole begins to crumble. It's the only thing we haven't tried yet and it's the only thing that is assured to work.
On November 01 2011 10:23 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: We need to start attacking the clients of the cartels. It's the one thing that can put a dent in them. Legalization will only increase the power of the cartels, but MAY reduce violence in Mexico (the Zetas aren't reassuring me on that last part, though). Fighting them doesn't work as the profit margin in drugs makes seizing drugs, guns and money and killing and fighting their men worthless due to the sheer amount of profit the bring in. The one thing that can work is reducing their customer count. Less demand means less sales, thus less funding and when there is less funding, the cartel as a whole begins to crumble. It's the only thing we haven't tried yet and it's the only thing that is assured to work.
The reasons the Cartels are so lucrative is due to the high demand for drugs not only in the U.S. but also growing demand in Europe and even Africa. Legalizing Marijuana would certainly put a dent in the income of the Cartels but would not end their business as they still run cocaine etc.
To really put a dent in organized crime in Mexico several things have to happen: increase in wages, funding for education, and push for affordable and decent housing, and access to healthcare. Those four things and their absence is what arms, and strengthens the Cartels in Mexico. Especially south of the U.S. border. Cartels offer all those things.
Pros and cons of legalization, I think it would be nice if we had a separate thread where we could constantly update those and keep it under discussion utilizing polls for every suggestion("who agrees that 'said thing' is a pro/con?" and so forth), even though setting the polls up as soon as you suggest something without previously discussing it thoroughly might be inefficient statiscs-wise (as people will summariously vote based on hearsays), the things I see the most by far when legalization is discussed are straight up baseless claims and it makes me cringe.
EPT
