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The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 120

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Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
April 26 2013 10:43 GMT
#2381
On April 24 2013 10:20 aksfjh wrote:
Euro area is doing comparatively worse in this recession than in the Great Depression. Keep up the austerity, guys!
[image loading]


yeah guess it's time that the european countries prepare for another war again so we can boost our industry output. Because that's exactly what this chart represents.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
April 26 2013 11:22 GMT
#2382
So Spain hits 27% unemployment.

But fiscal profligacy was the problem, so clearly austerity is the answer:

[image loading]


Oh wait. No. Government debt was steadily declining from around 60% of GDP to 30% before the crisis.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-26 11:30:02
April 26 2013 11:29 GMT
#2383
The UK has very narrowly avoided a triple-dip recession by registering 0.3% growth.

George Osbourne has called this an "encouraging sign".
Asymmetric
Profile Joined June 2011
Scotland1309 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-26 11:52:55
April 26 2013 11:40 GMT
#2384
On April 26 2013 20:29 paralleluniverse wrote:
The UK has very narrowly avoided a triple-dip recession by registering 0.3% growth.

George Osbourne has called this an "encouraging sign".


There arguing over semantics.

Stagnation is the word required to describe the recent history and current state of the British economy.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
April 26 2013 11:52 GMT
#2385
On April 26 2013 20:29 paralleluniverse wrote:
The UK has very narrowly avoided a triple-dip recession by registering 0.3% growth.

George Osbourne has called this an "encouraging sign".

Per capita GDP saw a decline, but I doubt EU politics are going to notice that after such a "success."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-27 04:09:10
April 27 2013 04:02 GMT
#2386
25% is considered normal? Just watched an episode of VICE on HBO and it covered the situation in Spain, and Greece. You have youths of the left actually arming themselves and trying to destroy the government (i.e. Down with the Regime). Meanwhile unemployment for the youth sits at 50% or more some figure. That is frightening. In Greece you have Communists batting, literally, Neo-Nazi's in the streets that also have a 10% representation in Parliament.

Could this get more out of control?
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13822 Posts
April 27 2013 04:22 GMT
#2387
On April 27 2013 13:02 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
25% is considered normal? Just watched an episode of VICE on HBO and it covered the situation in Spain, and Greece. You have youths of the left actually arming themselves and trying to destroy the government (i.e. Down with the Regime). Meanwhile unemployment for the youth sits at 50% or more some figure. That is frightening. In Greece you have Communists batting, literally, Neo-Nazi's in the streets that also have a 10% representation in Parliament.

Could this get more out of control?

To be honest I don't see how it can get anymore in control. No one has any solution to fix the economy and whatever austerity supporters are there know its the only thing that's buying time while their countries rot from the inside out. I'm legitimately scared for whats going to happen to the few nations that are going to collapse in the coming years.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17238 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-27 04:33:48
April 27 2013 04:28 GMT
#2388
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/files/2012/09/orlowskigraph.jpg

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99bb5b68-c13d-11e1-8eca-00144feabdc0.html

What is this crisis you speak of?

But on a serious note, EU is crumbling all around. Greece, Spain and Italy beeing in some very deep shit, Ireland struggling a lot, big players like France and Germany barely holding and having other problems (immigration mostly) etc.

It looks pretty bleak. I guess that all this virtual money and too many loans being given out by banks are now coming back at them. People living above their paygrade thanks to all sorts of bank loans, credit cards and what not isn't helping either.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-27 10:22:26
April 27 2013 10:17 GMT
#2389
On April 27 2013 13:02 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
25% is considered normal? Just watched an episode of VICE on HBO and it covered the situation in Spain, and Greece. You have youths of the left actually arming themselves and trying to destroy the government (i.e. Down with the Regime). Meanwhile unemployment for the youth sits at 50% or more some figure. That is frightening. In Greece you have Communists batting, literally, Neo-Nazi's in the streets that also have a 10% representation in Parliament.

Could this get more out of control?



Yes off course, if we are not carefull we might end up like the usa where 30% of the people live in poverty to let the upper 0.1% make millions. Our citys could detoriate with gettos filled with crime and gangs.
Luckily we are still far from that

"There arguing over semantics.

Stagnation is the word required to describe the recent history and current state of the British economy"

Am thinking stagflation might be even more apropiate.


Austerity is just temporarely to get merkel reelected and to push through some neccesary reforms.
When the economy is structurally unsound pumping it with monney (monetary easing) is not succesfull in the longrun, you are then basicly investing in a bad economy. First the economy should become more healthy, then after that we can start pump it up again.
The eurozone wont collapse nor will its economys, prosperity is just around the corner to use an american saying
Yuljan
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
2196 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-27 10:31:43
April 27 2013 10:31 GMT
#2390
+ Show Spoiler +
(CNN) -- "Wherever the olive tree grows, you won't find much tax being collected," the mayor of a small town in southern Spain told me a few years ago. He shrugged; such was life.
He probably had no idea that some high-powered academics were about to come up with the same conclusion. When they analyzed Europe's "shadow economies" -- defined as areas that fall beyond the reach of the taxman -- those of Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal were much larger (relatively) than those in northern Europe.
That is partly because of the higher number of self-employed and family businesses, which tend to deal in cash and pay little tax. But to many economic commentators, tax evasion is also a national pastime in much of southern Europe, and a significant factor in the region's burgeoning financial crisis.
According to a 2007 paper by Austrian economist Friedrich Schneider, the shadow economy in Italy accounted for 22.3% of gross domestic product (GDP), that of Spain 19.3%; Portugal 19.2% and Greece a staggering 25.1%. By comparison, the U.S. shadow economy was 7.2% of GDP. A recent European Union report came up with similar figures.
History of the euro Italian youth discuss future of the euro Apostolaki: Referendum divides a nation France's new economic reality
Silvio Berlusconi mused several years ago that high tax rates in Italy made evasion a "natural right" for many. And the evidence does suggest that wherever tax rates and social security contributions are high, the shadow economy is larger.
The U.S. ambassador in Rome noted in a 2009 diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks that Italy was "addicted both to profligate social welfare spending and to tax evasion." And this year, Industry Minister Paolo Romani estimated "phantom" or undeclared income in Italy at a monstrous $320 billion.
The Italian state -- whose debt has measured more than 100% of GDP every year since 1992 -- is perennially poor, in a country of individual wealth that's well hidden from the authorities. Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti recently told a conference that fewer than 800 people in Italy -- which is the world's seventh-richest country -- had declared incomes of more than 1 million euros ($1.4 million) in 2010. That means the salaried middle class end up paying more.
Tremonti is aiming to more than double the amount recovered from tax evasion within the next two years. A recently unveiled series of television commercials attacks the "parassita della societa" -- the parasites evading taxes, comparing them with malarial mosquitoes.
Even so, the European Commission is not optimistic that Italy's "heavy reliance" on tackling tax evasion will be enough to balance the budget within two years.
Greek PM optimistic about referendum
Until 2006, national and local taxes in Italy were collected by banks and other private institutions. It was only five years ago that a single agency -- Equitalia --was created to modernize tax collection.
Not that Italians have taken the agency to their hearts, with effigies of Equitalia sometimes hanged at public protests.
The Italian media and activist groups say the agency has gone after the lower middle-class taxpayers for small tax debts, often forcing people into foreclosure, while tax evasion among the wealthy remains rampant.
Taxation in Italy also is a cumbersome business. For example, there are six different levels of taxation on diesel fuel -- from fishing boats to taxis and ambulances. And there are multiple agencies involved in tax assessment that are not famous for cooperating.
But the price of not improving the government's tax take may be high.
Until now Italy has been able to service its debt with relative comfort, but higher interest rates on its bonds may imperil that. The yield on Italian debt now exceeds 6%.
Greece is renowned for its history of tax evasion, estimated last year as worth 4% of GDP -- $11 billion. It may be much more: the Federation of Greek Industries has estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion.
A report by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development on Greece last year concluded that "to fight widespread tax evasion, a sustained and major effort to strengthen tax administration is necessary. Particular emphasis should be placed on enforcement to ensure that those in the informal economy are brought into the tax net."
That apparently includes some prominent doctors in an up-market part of Athens, who declared incomes of less that $45,000 but had kids at private schools, and owned swimming pools, yachts and other visible signs of wealth. Their names were published last year as part of a populist campaign by Prime Minister George Papandreou to get tough with tax evaders.
More embarrassment came when Professor Herakles Polemarchakis -- former head of the prime minister's economic department -- found that the farming town of Larisa in Greece had more Porsche Cayenne SUVs per capita than any other city in the world. In an article, Polemarchakis noted: "The proliferation of Cayennes is a curiosity, given that farming is not a flourishing sector in Greece" and that declared incomes in Larisa were very modest.
Greece has revived an "Economic Crimes Enforcement Agency" and tried to improve tax collection as part of a multi-pronged initiative to cut the budget deficit. But collecting more taxes in the teeth of a savage recession is not easy. The opposition New Democracy party has argued for lower tax rates combined with more effective action in tackling tax evasion.
The influential London Business School says in a recent paper that the Greek tax system is hopelessly broken.
"Tax and customs and excise evasion must be addressed head-on," it says, while noting that former senior officials at the Ministry of Finance had forecast "astonishingly, that even if all the tax-collecting authorities were shut down, state revenues would not suffer noticeably." The London Business School report says many officials had simply refused to carry out audits demanded by the Finance Ministry and concluded that the current tax authorities were "beyond salvation."
Spain has done more than most to tackle tax evasion, according to analysts, taking more tax cheats to court and gathering more data from bills and credit card records to pursue tax evaders. Authorities have tracked down an estimated 200,000 individuals who had not declared income from rental properties, previously a massive source of tax evasion.
Five years ago the Spanish Ministry of Finance also launched an investigation to find out why a quarter of all high-denomination 500-euro notes circulating in Europe were in Spain.
The answer -- they were handy for organized crime and as a way of evading taxes in Spain's booming (but now busted) construction industry. Spaniards began calling the 500-euro note the 'bin Laden' -- everyone knew what it stood for and what it looked like, but no one ever saw it. (Italian investigators have warned that the bank note was becoming popular with the mafia and adding to the problem of tax evasion.)
The Spanish government reaped more than $13 billion last year by clamping down on evasion -- 23% more than in 2009. Spain's tax authorities have established special units to monitor the "offshoring" of revenues by companies and fraud in the real estate market. But groups like the Corporate Social Responsibility Observatory say 80% of Spain's largest firms continue to harbor profits in tax havens.
Better tax collection is not going to solve the myriad of economic problems confronting the Mediterranean countries, where extravagant state spending, inflexible labor markets, distorted competition policy and inefficient state enterprises have all contributed to the current crisis.
But at a time when investors and lenders want to see "fiscal rectitude," going after tax evaders is one of the easier ways of demonstrating intent.


I dont see any reason to give the southern states money to continue where they left of before the crisis. Sure if Germany itself was in a deep recession we would never choose an austerity strategy. Thats why the euro is a failure. Northern europe is not willing to finance the south and the south isnt able to reach the competitiveness of the north. Politicians are destroying all of it by refusing to let the euro fall. I dont know why Greece for example does not leave the euro. I think they could easily negotiate another hair cut if they go back to their own currency. After that they can inflate their problems away now and go into another recession in 10 years again but at least we are rid of the most problematic economy.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-27 14:45:46
April 27 2013 10:46 GMT
#2391
On April 26 2013 02:16 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2013 01:11 radiatoren wrote:
On April 14 2013 23:42 AngryMag wrote:
On April 14 2013 23:24 govie wrote:
On April 14 2013 22:55 AngryMag wrote:
I just want to point out that the UK doesn't get bashed in Germany. Cohn Bendit and Lambsdorff are largely irrelevant in today's political process. Especially Cohn Bendit probably couldn't even walk the streets without catching atleast verbal abuse.


Point is that there is no general flaming, only some irrelevant guys shouting out their meaningless opinions over the media.


In general I am amazed that EU treaties are basically valid only for 1 year nowadays. Lisbon treaty already clearly violated (no bailout clause) and now we need "additions". WHy make treaties in the first place if they are broken at the first opportunity?

I have a hard time believing that so many people actually support our additional bureaucratic layer in Brussels. In my opinion the influence of unelected dudes in important positions (EU commission, banking and finance organs) on national politics needs to be cut down dramatically.


Not they dont but everything that is important gets voted on by your and our prime ministers for example. In your country there are elections in the fall, if merkel isnt re elected there is a big chance the eurozone will fall. It is of most extreme importance to the EU no negative news reaches the germans (i.e. budgetcuts) about the euro until the fall. It is wierd that there was a 3% budgetnorm, but because this year there are alot of elections in the western countries like germany and therefore they may delay that norm for this and next year (no budgetcuts is very positive for merkels re election ofc).... And thats why i am not a big fan of the eurocurrency and the crisis it has unleashed over the good people of europe. Your merkel has her fist up van rompuy's ass every f&^%$ week

But i can see reasons why they wanted a euro and they are good reasons. To bad they were a bit hasty with the introduction of the euro. But i feel that if the euro survives, i dont think it will in its current form but if it would, it will be the strongest currency in the world for centuries to come. Because this is the biggest test to a federal europe of the future.


I just cannot agree to the institutional framework, I see it as somehow post-democratic with big bussiness lobyists having too much of a say.

Prime example is always the EU commission. They have basically the whole guideline competence (like the german chancellor) and combine executive and legislative powers (that itself is quite problematic). In Germany the chancellor gets factually voted by the people (parties name their candidate around a year before the election and then the people can vote the parties, parties vote the chancellor). The EU commission gets appointed by national chancellors/prime ministers/presidents whatever they call themselves.

Does any citizen in any EU country know which commissioner their respective government will appoint next? No, the whole process is intransparent and kept secret. For the position with the most power within the EU institutional framework, this is simply outrageous and I refuse to support such a framework. In the national governments/frameworks these appointment elections systems are reserved for politicians with only or mainly representative tasks (german president for example).

Using such an election system for the most powerful position within the EU is eroding democratic rules and the chance of the people to vote for the people who shall represent them in the political sphere (that's one of the reasons for the term post-democracy). There are many others I could point out but that leads to far, you could name the relative unimportance of the eu parliament in comparison to national parliaments, the erosion of the subsidarity principle and a myriad of other things.


As already said I will never support such a system. That is basically why Schäuble is saying no banking union under the current framework.. He knows that new treaties won't be achieved in the next time and agreeing to a banking unions or further integration would be the safest way to not see an office for his party in the next 30 years.

There is an even bigger problem with the EU parliament: The elections are separate and therefore completely meaningless. In Denmark we can vote on a whopping 1.8 % of the members of the parliament and they all agree on more than 80 % of the biggest issues regarding EU... There is a slow increase in the relevance of the groups and therefore the relevance on who to vote for, but it is nowhere near the point where the danish politicians can influence much. When I vote for the parliament, I vote for danish representation in as many of the larger groups as possible, simply because no danish members in EPP is almost a surefire way of getting even more irrelevant than now. I actually would prefer a lower number of danish representatives, no elections, but a guarantee that we get a representative in all the major groups...
So when you complain about the commission and their corruption (Has been shown several times, so if it is corrupt is not even a question!), you forget about the lack of true democracy in the parliament too! I find it unfortunate that UK are on their way out of EU, since one of their MEPs had a good idea about how to improve the parliaments democracy and he has fought incessantly for it!

As for the council, it is the most democratic part of EU, but there are problems in that too. In the last french election, Merkel was completely clear about who she wanted elected and I am sure that is going to be the trend: Transnational parties with an EU-angle on every issue. It is unfortunate to see parliamentarians from Germany hating on the UK prime minister and it is unfortunately for Merkel to support a specific president in France since the nationally elected in France and UK are meant as internal affairs where their national interests are to be determined!

Btw. Calling the euro doomed if Merkel loses the election in Germany is far too early to say anything about. Furthermore I think there are several german problems that, we as foreigners, do not need to get involved in at an election... EU is becomming all-encompassing in far too many ways and the war between the commission and the parliament combined with the internal and extermal fights with the council is not conductive for improving democracy.

There needs to be severe reforms on all 3 of these main powers in EU and I am gettiong more and more convinced that nobody has the power and/or courage to change the foundations of these in fear of not getting elected again or simply getting shut down by other elected officials. The democratisation of EU feels like a dead horse and that worries me more than the economic crisis.

Edit: Understandeability

It is perfectly democratic that Danish representatives in parliament cannot influence much. Danish population is too small. I don't think lack of democracy is your issue

When 10 % of the opinions in the parliament is reflected in the choices for the danish election to the parliament it is a huge democratic problem! I agree that Denmark is too small to get any real influence but it is kind of non-sense to not give all options. That is where I see a huge problem with the EU parliament. The lack of possibilities is scary here, where no party is truely supporting EPP and ECR policies (The majority in EU!). Give me a trans-european election. Denmark will lose a lot of influence, but at least we have the options in the election as opposed to a parody of an election where they agree on almost everything!

PS. Denmark has a participant in EPP who is top 10 of disloyalty to party-line (along with every other nordic member, mind you!). In ECR we have a former member of the EFD who got elected with pathetic numbers because the top vote-catcher dragged her in. She gave her party the finger and in her new party she is number 3 disloyal to party-line...
Repeat before me
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 01 2013 01:51 GMT
#2392
European unemployment has hit a new record and Moody's cut Slovenia's debt rating to junk status as German Chancellor Angela Merkel defended her crisis strategy, pushing for twin goals of fiscal rigour and growth.

Grim new data showed on Tuesday that European unemployment set a fresh record in March with more than 19 million jobless people -- including one out of four under-25-year-olds.

The Eurostat data agency reported an extra 62,000 people joining unemployment queues in just four weeks in the eurozone as the jobless rate climbed for the 23rd consecutive month -- hitting 12.1 percent in March.

The frightening new figures -- which showed almost two in three under-25s in Greece and Spain unemployed -- come amid vocal criticism over the effects on jobs of the cost-cutting measures pushed by austerity advocates.

Anger against austerity is rising across Europe as hard economic data fails to show a turn-around.

Greece saw joblessness climb relentlessly to 27.2 percent in January, the latest available figures, from 26.3 percent in December.

Meanwhile Portugal, with unemployment at 17.5 percent in March, was seeking to agree new austerity measures after its Constitutional Court rejected as discriminatory cuts to civil servant salaries and pensions decided in response to demands by EU-IMF lenders.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
frontliner2
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Netherlands844 Posts
May 01 2013 19:36 GMT
#2393
Ok so... Is there a very educated person here on TL (sure is I suppose) who knows a lot
about the pro's and con's about the EU? Can that person comfort me and tell me there are still things that are going very well? Seriously I would like that. All this EU news is worrying to me :S
I had a bad dream. Don't be afraid, bad dreams are only dreams. What a time you chose to be born in...
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-02 00:05:53
May 01 2013 20:04 GMT
#2394
I dont see any reason to give the southern states money to continue where they left of before the crisis....


Well, we're not really giving money to the south. We're just filtering it through the GIPS - countries and bringing it back to our banks. If we seriously would've given 200 billion euro to Greece in form of , lets say, stimulus packages, basically every person there would sit on golden thrones now.
What we're doing is letting our tax payers pay the goods and loans that went into the European south because we sold stuff to them which they couldn't really afford, and now instead of the companies who sold all the unnecessary stuff and banks who gave away the loans they knew they wouldn't get back, every tax payer pays for it, and as a byproduct, fueled by the media, every country in Europe starts hating each other, it's simply ridiculous.

I actually think one pretty straight forward idea to solve some of the worst problems are haircuts for the countries who can't reduce their debts with austerity measures without killing themselves. That may result in some banks going broke, but i don't see whats wrong with that, if you make an investment you also have to take the risk if that investment failed, and in the terms of Greece it did , and it did in fact a very long time ago.

I don't think it's necessary to go back to national currencies, because currency devaluation isn't really going to help someone in the long run anyway.Structural reforms are necessary, but the weaker countries can't handle that while they're also paying back ridiculous loans. Also the wages here in Germany seriously need to go up, we're profiting from the Euro already through it's weak value compared to a national currency, and compared with our low wages we're basically making it impossible for every country around us to export anything and get their budgets straight.

about the pro's and con's about the EU


Well pro's are that the EU, even still, is the biggest domestic market in the world, you can travel where you want, work where you want, and it actually gives us Europeans a chance to have some influence on world politics.
Going back to national currencies and national interests, at least for me, seems like going back 100 years culturally.

the con's of the Euro is that all the countries who have it, don't have monetary policies available anymore. They can't devalue their currency anymore for example, which would help them to stay competitive. So they have to do many reforms in a hurry , which usually would take decades of time. Which would probably still be okay if the European politicians wouldn't fuck up big time.

I personally really hope we can get through the crisis somehow, but i don't see politics making any progress, but maybe it will get better after autumn and after our elections, who knows.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
May 01 2013 22:46 GMT
#2395
On May 02 2013 05:04 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
I dont see any reason to give the southern states money to continue where they left of before the crisis....


Well, we're not really giving money to the south. We're just filtering it through the GIPS - countries and bringing it back to our banks. If we seriously would've given 200 billion euro to greece in form of , lets say, stimulus packages, basically every person there would sit on golden thrones now.
What we're doing is letting our tax payers pay the goods and loans that went into the european south because we sold stuff to them which they couldnt really afford, and now instead of the companies who sold all the unecessary stuff and banks who gave away the loans they knew they wouldn't get back, every tax payer pays for it, and as a byproduct, fueled by the media, every country in Europe starts hating each other, it's simply ridiculous.

I actually think one pretty straight forward idea to solve some of the worst problems are haircuts for the countries who can't reduce their debts with austerity measures without killing themselves. That may result in some banks going broke, but i don't see whats wrong with that, if you make an investment you also have to take the risk if that investment failed, and in the terms of greece it did , and it did in fact a very long time ago.

I don't think it's necessary to go back to national currencies, because currency devaluation isn't really going to help someone in the long run anyway.Structural reforms are necessary, but the weaker countries can't handle that while they're also paying back ridicilous loans. Also the wages here in Germany seriously need to go up, we're profiting from the Euro already through it's weak value compared to a national currency, and compared with our low wages we're basically making it impossible for every country around us to export anything and get their budgets straight.

Show nested quote +
about the pro's and con's about the EU


Well pro's are that the EU, even still, is the biggest domestic market in the world, you can travel where you want, work where you want, and it actually gives us Europeans a chance to have some influence on world politics.
Going back to national currencies and national interests, at least for me, seems like going back 100 years culturally.

the con's of the Euro is that all the countries who have it, don't have monetary politicies available anymore. They can't devaluate their currency anymore for example, which would help them to stay competitive. So they have to do many reforms in a hurry , which usually would take decades of time. Which would probably still be okay if the european politicians wouldn't fuck up big time.

I personally really hope we can get through the crisis somehow, but i don't see politics making any progress, but maybe it will get better after autumn and after our elections, who knows.

That's a pretty fair assessment. I would say that there needs to be some revolutionary thinking in terms of monetary policy to deal with the Euro. A way for the ECB to promote inflation in certain regions more than in other regions, without needing much coordination from slower fiscal actors.
Taguchi
Profile Joined February 2003
Greece1575 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-02 00:19:39
May 02 2013 00:15 GMT
#2396
On May 02 2013 04:36 frontliner2 wrote:
Ok so... Is there a very educated person here on TL (sure is I suppose) who knows a lot
about the pro's and con's about the EU? Can that person comfort me and tell me there are still things that are going very well? Seriously I would like that. All this EU news is worrying to me :S


Well, the primary reason for the existence of the EU was to avoid all the wars that happened every couple decades and that's worked out pretty well. This also tends to fly over people's heads of course.

The means to avoid the wars was to be the open market, open borders and prosperity for all philosophy which isn't really happening at this point because of failings of various national policies (PIIGS being PIIGS, Germany being too successful too soon, inflation control being considered more important than unemployment control (this has historically never worked and it's not working now and it's being recognized at the highest level (see American suggestions lately) but OH WELL, better wait a couple more years for no apparent reason I suppose)).

But still, unless we go through a large scale wave of nationalism (and I'm not talking 10% for society's dregs (Golden Dawn for my country, Le Pen for France etc), that percentage is still only, I believe, a reflection of people's stupidity more than a trend) the EU will be a success. Euro crisis is undermining EU foundations (with a 10ton sledgehammer) but there's still a chance it'll work out in the long term.
Great minds might think alike, but fastest hands rule the day~
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
May 02 2013 00:23 GMT
#2397
I think we have hit if not passed levels of unemployment seen in 1930s germany in most of the badly hit countries, 6 million people unemployed in spain neo nazis in greece, large scale hatred and resentment of Germany. The Euro needs to be abandoned or over time this is only going to get worse and worse and supposed EU success of preventing war will become its biggest failure.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 02 2013 01:31 GMT
#2398
Too bad there doesn't seem to be Poll numbers regarding Merkel herself and her austerity plans over time.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Melliflue
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom1389 Posts
May 02 2013 12:21 GMT
#2399
On May 02 2013 09:23 Zaros wrote:
I think we have hit if not passed levels of unemployment seen in 1930s germany in most of the badly hit countries, 6 million people unemployed in spain neo nazis in greece, large scale hatred and resentment of Germany. The Euro needs to be abandoned or over time this is only going to get worse and worse and supposed EU success of preventing war will become its biggest failure.

I don't think we're there yet. Unemployment peaked at a bit over 30% in the early 1930s in Germany. Wikipedia says it reached 30.8% in 1932. We haven't got that level of unemployment in Europe now, but it is close. I don't agree with abandoning the Euro (yet). The current policies aren't working but that doesn't mean we should give up on everything.

I thought the EU was supposed to be about cooperation and preventing future wars, I don't think that was the rationale behind the Euro (but I may be wrong). To be honest, I would think a war in western Europe is extremely unlikely, just because of how good all the countries became at war. It would be a case of mutually assured destruction. That said, I think that was the argument behind having two massive superpowers at the start of 20th century, which led to WW1.
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-02 14:53:57
May 02 2013 14:49 GMT
#2400
On May 02 2013 21:21 Melliflue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2013 09:23 Zaros wrote:
I think we have hit if not passed levels of unemployment seen in 1930s germany in most of the badly hit countries, 6 million people unemployed in spain neo nazis in greece, large scale hatred and resentment of Germany. The Euro needs to be abandoned or over time this is only going to get worse and worse and supposed EU success of preventing war will become its biggest failure.

I don't think we're there yet. Unemployment peaked at a bit over 30% in the early 1930s in Germany. Wikipedia says it reached 30.8% in 1932. We haven't got that level of unemployment in Europe now, but it is close. I don't agree with abandoning the Euro (yet). The current policies aren't working but that doesn't mean we should give up on everything.

I thought the EU was supposed to be about cooperation and preventing future wars, I don't think that was the rationale behind the Euro (but I may be wrong). To be honest, I would think a war in western Europe is extremely unlikely, just because of how good all the countries became at war. It would be a case of mutually assured destruction. That said, I think that was the argument behind having two massive superpowers at the start of 20th century, which led to WW1.


Actually.. history teaches us the european union is based on solely economical grounds!

After WWII (1950's), germany and france signed a treaty about mining iron ole and cole from the elzas region (region between germany and france). This gave them both peace and stability to build up there economies again (fueling WWII was expensive). In the upcomming years energy and resources for economic benefits became the backbone of european colaboration resulting in a treaty of rome. This treaty created the EEC = European Economic Community, which resulted in a faster european intergration. In general u can state that the EU evolved out of the need for economic prosperity with the benefit of not having to finance wars because everbody got there shares

Yes, not having wars is beneficial for EU countries, but the biggest reason of european colaboration was economic prosperity and only that! When u have economic properity and stability, there is less need for wars (but not the other way around).
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
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