EPTThe European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 117
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21563 Posts
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farvacola
United States18820 Posts
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Adersick
United States216 Posts
My condolences to both Greek and German people, who both must be face-palming at the proposed invoice. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:28 Yuljan wrote: And there is no legal basis for this anyway. No reparations without a peace treaty and since we already have something like a peace treaty with the 4+2 agreement we will certainly not make peace separately with all the 40+ nations who were at war with us. The greece might use this as an argument for not repaying their debt though. There might be a legal basis for this (there was indeed a loan taken against the Greek State, supposedly for the upkeep of the German occupying forces but shown to have been used for Germany's campaign in North Africa if I recall the details correctly, which was never repaid), but no ethical basis, in my opinion. When the rest of Europe was busy getting reparations from Germany and rebuilding money from the Marshal plan, the geniuses here were busy fighting a civil war (communists vs the rest) and didn't have enough political clout or stability to pursue such matters. And then people pretty much forgot about the whole thing. And now conveniently bring it up again... 70 years later... even if international law has no rules about wartime loans that weren't resolved as a part of treaties, presumably they'll just create the precedent now and just slap a 'wartime reparation demands expire after x years, you've been warned' tag and be done with it. There's a reason banks can declare accounts dormant after all (so if anyone plans to deposit 1k and freeze himself for a thousand years in order to get rich... think again!). Pretty sad state of affairs but quality material for psychology PhD's I'd think. edit: Also seriously doubt this actually makes it into any sort of official discussion, let alone courtroom. Opportunistic demagoguery when you're not actually in charge is one thing, making those same arguments while in charge quite another. Accountability tends to have a sobering effect on most people. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
They are blowing money in the asses of corporations in the hope that they will create new jobs, which they dont. Did you know what the US did to come out of the first economic collapse ? (this is the second if you ask, although there were 20 or so crisies inbetween) The US although they had no money in the 1930 went on a spending spree, they implemented the first social system in the US, Roosevelt launched a massive work package building roads and other infrastructure. But where did he get the money ? In the first crisies there was even less money then now or at least as now. If you hear from any politition or someone else we have no money, then slap him in the face. Roosevelt introduced income taxes as high as 94% on rich people. 94% in the US, unbelievable isnt it ? And he even raised corporate taxes and this along with the working program (and a war) he pulled the united states out of the crises. But years later, corporations and rich people shriveled away the laws, the high taxes, the distinction between the former two banking systems and now ? Now we are at the next collapse because of this. The corrporations along with capitalism introduced this crises when since 1970 the real wages did not go up (for various reasons, there was a workforce surplus for the first time in the US), and americans went on a borrowing binge to hold on to their american dream and worked themselves to death doing the most payed overtime in the world. On the other side, productivity was rising enormously and when you take wages not rising but productivty rising. Because of this corporations and CEOs and managers were making tons of money. They cowned themselves entrepreneurial geniuses (witch they were not or, where they complete dumbasses before the 1970) and so their wages rose and rose to perversion. And with this money, that need someone to look after, the hedge fund was born. And with hedge funds starting to compete against one another, the investments became riskier and riskier. And you might ask, where did the american people and work get their loans and credits from ? From the CEOs and managers from whom they did not receive any raises in real wages anymore. And hedgefunds started to spaculate with the loans and credits to get money out of the compund intresset. This is called asset based security. But in 2008 when american people where so much in debt and their wages where not rising, they could not pay it back. All these asset based security bullshit that was bought was worthless, huge sums of money were lost. in 2008 the credit and finacial system came to a stop. No money was moved, because everyone was afraid of everyone else. Until the US and other countries started pumping huge sums trillions of dollars into the banking system. In the US this was signed immediatly without any congressional debats because something like this is not as important as some health insurance that for sure demands a lot more of attention. It was signed in the last month of the bush administration. So with countries pumping money into the banking systems, where did they get the money ? The countries now as before the workforce got into a borrowing binge from other countries or other banks. And in cases like greece where the debt was so high that they could not repay it, the banks and countries said, no no greece we do not borrow you any money. But the banks where not afraid that the polititians wont pay them back (because they are all bought) but that the people would not permit it and vote against the government. And so without any money to bottow from greece faced bankrupcy. While the US is as it seems *cough* to big to fail, or at least this is what they tell you, they still get to bottow money and they started to print vast amount of money. When you print money, it is a crime, when the state does it, who is gonna arrest the state ? This crisis is not a short one it will go deeper because it has started since the 1970 with accumulating dept and compound interest. The US once showed us the way out of it,I hope they do it again. If you ask yourself, how was it possible for the US to raise 96% taxes on rich people ? I tell you. At the time there was a social movement, unions were at its strongest point ever in all of american history, left wing parties, socialsts and comunists were on the rise. So roosevelt went to the leading rich people and corporations and gathered them and said. This is my offer (at first he even demanded a maximim income in america, but the rich people went bonkers on that) you better take it, because you wont get an offer like that from the people that will come behind me next (meaning communists and socialists) and because of this social movement at the time important reforms were enabled that lead the US out of the crises and into the booming years, until coporations and rich people slowly killed these reforms leading up to now. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On April 10 2013 08:08 Taguchi wrote: There might be a legal basis for this (there was indeed a loan taken against the Greek State, supposedly for the upkeep of the German occupying forces but shown to have been used for Germany's campaign in North Africa if I recall the details correctly, which was never repaid), but no ethical basis, in my opinion. When the rest of Europe was busy getting reparations from Germany and rebuilding money from the Marshal plan, the geniuses here were busy fighting a civil war (communists vs the rest) and didn't have enough political clout or stability to pursue such matters. And then people pretty much forgot about the whole thing. And now conveniently bring it up again... 70 years later... even if international law has no rules about wartime loans that weren't resolved as a part of treaties, presumably they'll just create the precedent now and just slap a 'wartime reparation demands expire after x years, you've been warned' tag and be done with it. There's a reason banks can declare accounts dormant after all (so if anyone plans to deposit 1k and freeze himself for a thousand years in order to get rich... think again!). Pretty sad state of affairs but quality material for psychology PhD's I'd think. The loan definitely happened and I dont doubt that the war damages in Greece where close to the sum mentioned but the 1990 agreement settled all claims for war reparations (Greece accepted this). The loan can not be considered freely given since german and italian lawyers gave the loan without any greece participation. A nice article about this: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2093990-2,00.html Although you should be careful: + Show Spoiler + "That is why under the terms of the 1953 London Debt Agreement, reparation payments were put off until a peace treaty was signed. That finally happened in 1990, which didn't require Germany to pay further reparations to other countries like Greece." The 1990 agreement was not a peace treaty and the then german government stated one fo the reasons for this was to prevent further war reparations. I cant find any english sources for this right now. So in short sure the figures are not baseless but there is absolutely no chance this will ever be paid. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
Europe's Poorest? Look North: ECB Survey Puts Southerners on Top in Household Wealth, Germans Near Bottom A European Central Bank survey showing that private Cypriots might be more wealthy than private Germans, even if the reverse is true for their governments, could increase the argument for euro-zone debt bail-ins rather than debt bail-outs in the future. FRANKFURT—German households are among the poorest—on paper, at least—in the euro zone, according to a study by the European Central Bank that adds a new twist to the debate over how far taxpayers in Northern Europe should go to support weaker countries. The ECB's findings, released Tuesday, don't give the full picture of a society's living standards, which are affected by things like social protection and infrastructure as well. It also is based primarily on data from 2009 and 2010—early days in the still-festering euro crisis. Most significantly, the report doesn't adjust for differing rates of homeownership, which is particularly low in Germany. Nevertheless, the report offers a reminder that citizens in some of the countries hardest-hit by Europe's debt crisis aren't as bad off as many believe. The question of how much taxpayer money should be put up to bail out governments in Greece, Cyprus and Portugal tops the political agenda in Germany, Europe's biggest economy and financial backer. Enlarge Image Reuters Members of German public sector union Ver.di and German metal workers union IG Metall demonstrated Tuesday against the unfair distribution of prosperity in German society. The ECB's findings could encourage efforts to further involve the private sector in any future government rescues by imposing wealth taxes or losses on large bank deposits, which would reduce the price tag for Germany and others, analysts said. Read More U.S. Seeks Less Austerity in Euro Zone EU Sounds Alarm on Spain, Slovenia Should ECB Kill the 500-Euro Note? The figures "clearly give more weight for bail-ins" of the private sector in countries that need assistance, said Carsten Brzeski, an economist at ING Bank in Brussels. The report, compiled through a survey of over 60,000 households across the euro zone, shows a dichotomy between cash-strapped governments and a rich citizenry, as high private-sector wealth didn't prevent governments in Southern Europe from racking up large debts. By one ECB measure of typical households, Germany is the poorest country in the euro bloc, behind even Slovakia and Portugal. A number of factors appear to have skewed the results, such as the emphasis on homeownership, household size and small-business ownership that favors countries in Southern Europe. Enlarge Image Income-based measures of well-being put Germany on stronger footing compared with its southern peers. Figures released by the European Statistics Agency last month, for example, showed gross domestic product per person—a measure of income—in Germany was €29,000, or 119% of the EU average during 2010. That compared with 87% in Greece, 101% in Italy and 99% in Spain. Of the 41 regions with a GDP per capita above 125% of the average, eight were in Germany. Not surprisingly, households in Luxembourg topped the ECB study, with average net wealth of over €700,000 in 2010, the last year for which data are available. But those in Cyprus were second, with average net wealth of around €670,000. Last month, the government there got a €10 billion ($13 billion) rescue from the European Union and International Monetary Fund. As part of that bailout, large depositors in the biggest Cypriot banks face significant losses. German households had on average just under €200,000 in net wealth. The figure was slightly lower in Finland and the Netherlands, where public opposition to bailouts of Southern Europe also runs high. The Netherlands, Finland and Germany all among the least wealthy in Europe. Guess who has to shoulder the most bailouts with their high taxes? The median, or midpoint, of German households had just over €50,000 in wealth, the lowest in the euro zone. The median in Greece, was twice that, at €102,000, and five times as high as in Cyprus at nearly €270,000. Median figures strip out the extremes of wealth and poverty, and are a better reflection of a typical, middle-class household. There are additional factors, however, that inflated asset valuations in Southern Europe. In Germany, mortgage interest isn't treated as favorably for taxes as it is in other parts of Europe. In addition, German banks typically require large down payments, depressing home-buying in favor of renting. "The role of homeownership is sizable," the ECB said in its 113-page report. The survey data also don't reflect the decline in the prices of homes and other assets over the past three years. Respondents estimated the value of their homes for the survey, so prices may have differed from the actual market value. Households are typically larger in Southern Europe than in Germany, an added boost to their assets. And the report also doesn't fully incorporate certain pay-as-you-go pension programs that are typically used in Germany. Still, the report was the ECB's first attempt to provide comparable wealth statistics across the 17-member euro zone. It defined wealth as total assets—including real estate, vehicles, bank deposits, investments and pensions—minus liabilities such as outstanding mortgages, credit-card debt and other loans. + Show Spoiler + Nice to know that the publishing of this was delayed because of the Cyprus bailout. Guess now we know why the people in Cyprus protested against the participation of rich people. | ||
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On April 11 2013 04:45 Yuljan wrote: + Show Spoiler + Europe's Poorest? Look North: ECB Survey Puts Southerners on Top in Household Wealth, Germans Near Bottom A European Central Bank survey showing that private Cypriots might be more wealthy than private Germans, even if the reverse is true for their governments, could increase the argument for euro-zone debt bail-ins rather than debt bail-outs in the future. FRANKFURT—German households are among the poorest—on paper, at least—in the euro zone, according to a study by the European Central Bank that adds a new twist to the debate over how far taxpayers in Northern Europe should go to support weaker countries. The ECB's findings, released Tuesday, don't give the full picture of a society's living standards, which are affected by things like social protection and infrastructure as well. It also is based primarily on data from 2009 and 2010—early days in the still-festering euro crisis. Most significantly, the report doesn't adjust for differing rates of homeownership, which is particularly low in Germany. Nevertheless, the report offers a reminder that citizens in some of the countries hardest-hit by Europe's debt crisis aren't as bad off as many believe. The question of how much taxpayer money should be put up to bail out governments in Greece, Cyprus and Portugal tops the political agenda in Germany, Europe's biggest economy and financial backer. Enlarge Image Reuters Members of German public sector union Ver.di and German metal workers union IG Metall demonstrated Tuesday against the unfair distribution of prosperity in German society. The ECB's findings could encourage efforts to further involve the private sector in any future government rescues by imposing wealth taxes or losses on large bank deposits, which would reduce the price tag for Germany and others, analysts said. Read More U.S. Seeks Less Austerity in Euro Zone EU Sounds Alarm on Spain, Slovenia Should ECB Kill the 500-Euro Note? The figures "clearly give more weight for bail-ins" of the private sector in countries that need assistance, said Carsten Brzeski, an economist at ING Bank in Brussels. The report, compiled through a survey of over 60,000 households across the euro zone, shows a dichotomy between cash-strapped governments and a rich citizenry, as high private-sector wealth didn't prevent governments in Southern Europe from racking up large debts. By one ECB measure of typical households, Germany is the poorest country in the euro bloc, behind even Slovakia and Portugal. A number of factors appear to have skewed the results, such as the emphasis on homeownership, household size and small-business ownership that favors countries in Southern Europe. Enlarge Image Income-based measures of well-being put Germany on stronger footing compared with its southern peers. Figures released by the European Statistics Agency last month, for example, showed gross domestic product per person—a measure of income—in Germany was €29,000, or 119% of the EU average during 2010. That compared with 87% in Greece, 101% in Italy and 99% in Spain. Of the 41 regions with a GDP per capita above 125% of the average, eight were in Germany. Not surprisingly, households in Luxembourg topped the ECB study, with average net wealth of over €700,000 in 2010, the last year for which data are available. But those in Cyprus were second, with average net wealth of around €670,000. Last month, the government there got a €10 billion ($13 billion) rescue from the European Union and International Monetary Fund. As part of that bailout, large depositors in the biggest Cypriot banks face significant losses. German households had on average just under €200,000 in net wealth. The figure was slightly lower in Finland and the Netherlands, where public opposition to bailouts of Southern Europe also runs high. The Netherlands, Finland and Germany all among the least wealthy in Europe. Guess who has to shoulder the most bailouts with their high taxes? The median, or midpoint, of German households had just over €50,000 in wealth, the lowest in the euro zone. The median in Greece, was twice that, at €102,000, and five times as high as in Cyprus at nearly €270,000. Median figures strip out the extremes of wealth and poverty, and are a better reflection of a typical, middle-class household. There are additional factors, however, that inflated asset valuations in Southern Europe. In Germany, mortgage interest isn't treated as favorably for taxes as it is in other parts of Europe. In addition, German banks typically require large down payments, depressing home-buying in favor of renting. "The role of homeownership is sizable," the ECB said in its 113-page report. The survey data also don't reflect the decline in the prices of homes and other assets over the past three years. Respondents estimated the value of their homes for the survey, so prices may have differed from the actual market value. Households are typically larger in Southern Europe than in Germany, an added boost to their assets. And the report also doesn't fully incorporate certain pay-as-you-go pension programs that are typically used in Germany. Still, the report was the ECB's first attempt to provide comparable wealth statistics across the 17-member euro zone. It defined wealth as total assets—including real estate, vehicles, bank deposits, investments and pensions—minus liabilities such as outstanding mortgages, credit-card debt and other loans. + Show Spoiler + Nice to know that the publishing of this was delayed because of the Cyprus bailout. Guess now we know why the people in Cyprus protested against the participation of rich people. Isn't this what was being discussed several pages ago? I think this post by ACrow was about that report/survey. From what I read the conclusion was that there is a massive cultural difference in owning or renting a home and that German households may have lower personal wealth because fewer Germans own their home. There was also some discussion about this possibly being due to more inequality in Germany. See this post by WhiteDog for example. (I lurk in this thread because I want to know more about these things and find such discussions interesting but my knowledge of economics is quite basic so I don't feel qualified to take part, but I genuinely am not sure if Yuljan is talking about the same report/survey). | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:25 Melliflue wrote: Isn't this what was being discussed several pages ago? I think this post by ACrow was about that report/survey. From what I read the conclusion was that there is a massive cultural difference in owning or renting a home and that German households may have lower personal wealth because fewer Germans own their home. There was also some discussion about this possibly being due to more inequality in Germany. See this post by WhiteDog for example. (I lurk in this thread because I want to know more about these things and find such discussions interesting but my knowledge of economics is quite basic so I don't feel qualified to take part, but I genuinely am not sure if Yuljan is talking about the same report/survey). This time its not only median but average wealth too, which shows that inequality is large in Germany but even if you count in the inequality (average) we are still substantially below most of europe (especially Cyprus). Furthermore I dont buy the owning vs renting discussion. They are just trying to find a non Euro breaking explanation for this. The best explanation is southern europe had low taxes leading to a rich population and a bankrupt state. Most of the northern countries have high taxes and the state has a good credit ratings while the taxes lowered the wealth of the population substantially. Of course not all of these numbers should be taken at face value. Spain for example is significantly worse of now since the housing bubble and the drop in real estate prices (study was done before this), but for Cyprus the decision to withhold this from the public is almost with criminal intent. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nDn1CFB.jpg) | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:38 Yuljan wrote: This time its not only median but average wealth too, which shows that inequality is large in Germany but even if you count in the inequality (average) we are still substantially below most of europe (especially Cyprus). Furthermore I dont buy the owning vs renting discussion. They are just trying to find a non Euro breaking explanation for this. The best explanation is southern europe had low taxes leading to a rich population and a bankrupt state. Most of the northern countries have high taxes and the state has a good credit ratings while the taxes lowered the wealth of the population substantially. Of course not all of these numbers should be taken at face value. Spain for example is significantly worse of now since the housing bubble and the drop in real estate prices (study was done before this), but for Cyprus the decision to withhold this from the public is almost with criminal intent. How about the size of household and pre-bust real estate arguments though? If you looked at median wealth per person in 2010 would the numbers look anything similar or would Germany actually be significantly ahead? | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:41 hypercube wrote: How about the size of household and pre-bust real estate arguments though? If you looked at median wealth per person in 2010 would the numbers look anything similar or would Germany actually be significantly ahead? The pre-bust real estate argument is mostly valid for Spain. The average wealth may have improved a little because of the current fake high of the DAX but median should be unchanged (low income households generally only have bank accounts with low interest rates and no stocks in Germany). The household size is around 2 in Germany and 2,32 for the rest of europe so this does not explain the large differences in wealth. The home ownership argument is further weakened if you look at finland which has a high home ownership but is not even close to southern wealth levels. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:47 Yuljan wrote: The pre-bust real estate argument is mostly valid for Spain. The average wealth may have improved a little because of the current fake high of the DAX but median should be unchanged (low income households generally only have bank accounts with low interest rates and no stocks in Germany). The household size is around 2 in Germany and 2,32 for the rest of europe so this does not explain the large differences in wealth. The home ownership argument is further weakened if you look at finland which has a high home ownership but is not even close to southern wealth levels. IDK, these numbers seem really fishy on the face of it. Median wealth is lower in Germany than in Slovakia? I understand that it's an important initiative to look for household wealth but I'm not sure the first try is good enough to take seriously. I guess people should start looking into the details and if the methodology holds up it should influence policy (e.g. support wealth based taxation for Spain or Italy for example). | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On April 11 2013 04:45 Yuljan wrote: + Show Spoiler + Europe's Poorest? Look North: ECB Survey Puts Southerners on Top in Household Wealth, Germans Near Bottom A European Central Bank survey showing that private Cypriots might be more wealthy than private Germans, even if the reverse is true for their governments, could increase the argument for euro-zone debt bail-ins rather than debt bail-outs in the future. FRANKFURT—German households are among the poorest—on paper, at least—in the euro zone, according to a study by the European Central Bank that adds a new twist to the debate over how far taxpayers in Northern Europe should go to support weaker countries. The ECB's findings, released Tuesday, don't give the full picture of a society's living standards, which are affected by things like social protection and infrastructure as well. It also is based primarily on data from 2009 and 2010—early days in the still-festering euro crisis. Most significantly, the report doesn't adjust for differing rates of homeownership, which is particularly low in Germany. Nevertheless, the report offers a reminder that citizens in some of the countries hardest-hit by Europe's debt crisis aren't as bad off as many believe. The question of how much taxpayer money should be put up to bail out governments in Greece, Cyprus and Portugal tops the political agenda in Germany, Europe's biggest economy and financial backer. Enlarge Image Reuters Members of German public sector union Ver.di and German metal workers union IG Metall demonstrated Tuesday against the unfair distribution of prosperity in German society. The ECB's findings could encourage efforts to further involve the private sector in any future government rescues by imposing wealth taxes or losses on large bank deposits, which would reduce the price tag for Germany and others, analysts said. Read More U.S. Seeks Less Austerity in Euro Zone EU Sounds Alarm on Spain, Slovenia Should ECB Kill the 500-Euro Note? The figures "clearly give more weight for bail-ins" of the private sector in countries that need assistance, said Carsten Brzeski, an economist at ING Bank in Brussels. The report, compiled through a survey of over 60,000 households across the euro zone, shows a dichotomy between cash-strapped governments and a rich citizenry, as high private-sector wealth didn't prevent governments in Southern Europe from racking up large debts. By one ECB measure of typical households, Germany is the poorest country in the euro bloc, behind even Slovakia and Portugal. A number of factors appear to have skewed the results, such as the emphasis on homeownership, household size and small-business ownership that favors countries in Southern Europe. Enlarge Image Income-based measures of well-being put Germany on stronger footing compared with its southern peers. Figures released by the European Statistics Agency last month, for example, showed gross domestic product per person—a measure of income—in Germany was €29,000, or 119% of the EU average during 2010. That compared with 87% in Greece, 101% in Italy and 99% in Spain. Of the 41 regions with a GDP per capita above 125% of the average, eight were in Germany. Not surprisingly, households in Luxembourg topped the ECB study, with average net wealth of over €700,000 in 2010, the last year for which data are available. But those in Cyprus were second, with average net wealth of around €670,000. Last month, the government there got a €10 billion ($13 billion) rescue from the European Union and International Monetary Fund. As part of that bailout, large depositors in the biggest Cypriot banks face significant losses. German households had on average just under €200,000 in net wealth. The figure was slightly lower in Finland and the Netherlands, where public opposition to bailouts of Southern Europe also runs high. The Netherlands, Finland and Germany all among the least wealthy in Europe. Guess who has to shoulder the most bailouts with their high taxes? The median, or midpoint, of German households had just over €50,000 in wealth, the lowest in the euro zone. The median in Greece, was twice that, at €102,000, and five times as high as in Cyprus at nearly €270,000. Median figures strip out the extremes of wealth and poverty, and are a better reflection of a typical, middle-class household. There are additional factors, however, that inflated asset valuations in Southern Europe. In Germany, mortgage interest isn't treated as favorably for taxes as it is in other parts of Europe. In addition, German banks typically require large down payments, depressing home-buying in favor of renting. "The role of homeownership is sizable," the ECB said in its 113-page report. The survey data also don't reflect the decline in the prices of homes and other assets over the past three years. Respondents estimated the value of their homes for the survey, so prices may have differed from the actual market value. Households are typically larger in Southern Europe than in Germany, an added boost to their assets. And the report also doesn't fully incorporate certain pay-as-you-go pension programs that are typically used in Germany. Still, the report was the ECB's first attempt to provide comparable wealth statistics across the 17-member euro zone. It defined wealth as total assets—including real estate, vehicles, bank deposits, investments and pensions—minus liabilities such as outstanding mortgages, credit-card debt and other loans. + Show Spoiler + Nice to know that the publishing of this was delayed because of the Cyprus bailout. Guess now we know why the people in Cyprus protested against the participation of rich people. Look closely at the amounts of buts and ifs cause that list is huge! Another important point is the share of income going to food costs (also in the report): Netherlands 12.6 % (Lowest) Germany 15.6 % France 16.5 % Italy 20.1 % Spain 24.2 % Cyprus 27 % Slovenia 29.4 % Portugal 29.8 % (highest) % of household income from financial investments: Cyprus 4.6 % (highest) Netherlands 2.5 % France 1.6 % Spain 1.1 % Germany 1.1 % Finland 0.2 % (lowest) % ratio of median debt to income: Netherlands 194.1 % (highest) Cyprus 157 % Spain 113.5 % Finland 64.3 % France 50.4 % Germany 37.3 % Slovakia 22.7 % (lowest) You just need the right stat to show what you want shown. In terms of wealth the overwhelming data are focusing on home-ownership. Since Germany has very restrictive laws on those loans, it is no wonder that they end in the bottom. Since "you cannot eat bricks" is tried and true and the liquidity of housing is low it is not something you can live off. The above stats are based on income which is arguably a far better indicator of the development. The first numbers shows that it sucks to live in southern europe since such a large proportion of your income goes to a necessity like food. Cyprus is called a tax haven for a reason as is shown in the second comparison and the last numbers shows that Netherlands, Cyprus and Spain have high debt compared to income, while the German dept is very low. The report is pretty credible, but cherrypicking the wealth-stat is sensation-journalism (If anything food as a percentage of income seems like the most obvious measure of current household "wealth"). Edit: Sorry forgot Original source | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6196 Posts
trade balance NL Trade balance Ger | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:38 Yuljan wrote: This time its not only median but average wealth too, which shows that inequality is large in Germany but even if you count in the inequality (average) we are still substantially below most of europe (especially Cyprus). Furthermore I dont buy the owning vs renting discussion. They are just trying to find a non Euro breaking explanation for this. The best explanation is southern europe had low taxes leading to a rich population and a bankrupt state. Most of the northern countries have high taxes and the state has a good credit ratings while the taxes lowered the wealth of the population substantially. Of course not all of these numbers should be taken at face value. Spain for example is significantly worse of now since the housing bubble and the drop in real estate prices (study was done before this), but for Cyprus the decision to withhold this from the public is almost with criminal intent. Wow that chart i realy did not expect,Nor can i explain it. Cyprus maybe, if you take into account its an ofshore tax haven i can imagine lots of rich people have put their monney their bringing up both the average and the median, but for households in spain to be twice as rich as households in germany or the netherlands i would never thought to be possible. I still can not believe this btw and "They are just trying to find a non Euro breaking explanation for this. The best explanation is southern europe had low taxes leading to a rich population and a bankrupt state. Most of the northern countries have high taxes and the state has a good credit ratings while the taxes lowered the wealth of the population substantially." sounds somewhat logical but am sure that this is not sufficient to explain such a huge difference. Maybe households in southern countrys consists of more people wich could explain their higher wealth, another thing i can think of that maybe could explain this is a difference in the valuation of homes and pension plan/other assets. If the homes and other assets in the south are valued at double their real market value, while the homes in the north are valued at market value that could explain some of the difference maybe. Still i am realy puzzled by this list and keep thinking of possible explanations. i just dont buy that people in spain are twice as rich as people in germany. Just go have a look at the average car people drive in spain compared to germany, and the average house in spain compared to that in germany.The germans seem to be better of by a milestone yet this wont show up in these statistics.:s If annyone else has a good and logical explanation for this huge difference in household wealth pls post as i am basicly speachless lol. spain and italy both above germany (and the netherlands) and not by a small amount, no by a milestone of nearly 100% and 100k euro.Incredible. @ above:agree that household wealth is not the best indicator to see how wealthy the average citizen is but it is an indicator none the less and this indicator should never show such a huge difference favourable for the southern countrys. I realy think there is something wrong with the way it estimates certain values as i simply dont buy this difference. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On April 11 2013 05:54 radiatoren wrote: Look closely at the amounts of buts and ifs cause that list is huge! Another important point is the share of income going to food costs (also in the report): Netherlands 12.6 % (Lowest) Germany 15.6 % France 16.5 % Italy 20.1 % Spain 24.2 % Cyprus 27 % Slovenia 29.4 % Portugal 29.8 % (highest) % of household income from financial investments: Cyprus 4.6 % (highest) Netherlands 2.5 % France 1.6 % Spain 1.1 % Germany 1.1 % Finland 0.2 % (lowest) % ratio of median debt to income: Netherlands 194.1 % (highest) Cyprus 157 % Spain 113.5 % Finland 64.3 % France 50.4 % Germany 37.3 % Slovakia 22.7 % (lowest) You just need the right stat to show what you want shown. In terms of wealth the overwhelming data are focusing on home-ownership. Since Germany has very restrictive laws on those loans, it is no wonder that they end in the bottom. Since "you cannot eat bricks" is tried and true and the liquidity of housing is low it is not something you can live off. The above stats are based on income which is arguably a far better indicator of the development. The first numbers shows that it sucks to live in southern europe since such a large proportion of your income goes to a necessity like food. Cyprus is called a tax haven for a reason as is shown in the second comparison and the last numbers shows that Netherlands, Cyprus and Spain have high debt compared to income, while the German dept is very low. The report is pretty credible, but cherrypicking the wealth-stat is sensation-journalism (If anything food as a percentage of income seems like the most obvious measure of current household "wealth"). Edit: Sorry forgot Original source "In the HFCS, the income concept is gross income, i.e. taxes, social contributions and other transfers paid by households are not deducted from the income totals." So how exactly is that a better measure of difference between the countries? Noone is saying that Spain doesnt have a high unemployment rate and is not economically worse of than Germany. But what annoys me is Cyprus and the timing of this study. Where did their wealth come from, if their income is so low? And keep in mind that the differences in income are substantially lower than the differences in wealth. So why should we keep bailing out the southern states if their population has substantial assets which can be taxed? Sure houses are not liquid but its not like people are dying of hunger in southern europe. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
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Poffel
471 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Household size-----Germany-----Greece 1-----39.6-----20.1 2-----34.5-----28.3 3-----12.8-----24.2 4-----9.4-----23.3 5+-----3.8-----4.1 (Source: http://www.ecb.int/pub/pdf/other/the_eurosystem_household_finance_and_consumption_survey__statistical_tablesen.pdf) ... we see that in Greece, more than half of the "households" consist of three or more persons; in Germany, it's only a quarter. To put it bluntly, I'd really like to see some proper equivalency calculations for this dataset before I break a sweat over it. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10116 Posts
On April 11 2013 06:34 Rassy wrote: @ above:agree that household wealth is not the best indicator to see how wealthy the average citizen is but it is an indicator none the less and this indicator should never show such a huge difference favourable for the southern countrys. I realy think there is something wrong with the way it estimates certain values as i simply dont buy this difference. In Spanish case is not that amazing. With the construction bubble and everyone getting a mortgage due to lax regulations is normal you get those numbers, since during that period it was very common that you "had to buy" a house. That chart is just demagogic bullshit if you use it to tell "who is poorer", as the poster above you clarified. | ||
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