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Actually, the real parallel would be building church bells in Muslim nations. That would be the most relevant example.
A quick google search brings me this, this is actually in Russia:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/russia-church-bells-offend-muslims.htmlhttp://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/russia-church-bells-offend-muslims.html
+ Show Spoiler +
The Muslim community wanted the regional governor to change some of the rules of the contest. Using the sound of church bells was mandatory and Muslim leaders thought this alienated other ethnic and religious groups.
"There should be no political or religious themes in the anthem. It should be something that uplifts people and brings them together. I think including religion goes against this." Said Gayaz Zakirov, spiritual leader of the region’s Muslims.
Here's an example where church bells were not allowed in Pakistan.
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/06/pakistan-church-seized-for-ringing-its-bells-muslim-leaders-complain-it-insults-islam.html
+ Show Spoiler +Railways St. Andrew's Church was seized on April 28, and Christian employees of the Railway have been protesting the confiscation of their church property vehemently for the last several weeks.
The Church Committee told ICC that the authorities had originally granted Christians written permission to use the building on Sundays for worship services. However, when the church began using its bells and loudspeakers to invite Christians to morning and evening prayer services, Muslim leaders complained that the church was interfering with their five-times a day call to prayer and thus insulting Islam.
On April 28, Christians arrived at the church to find the doors sealed shut with a notice prohibiting anyone from entering the building. Christians responded by conducting a hunger strike and demonstrating in front of the Lahore Press Club for the next several days.
At the last report, this situation had not been resolved, and Muslim officers were instead trying to obtain permission to demolish the church so that they can build another mosque. Christian leaders are also being threatened with prosecution under Pakistan's infamous Blasphemy Laws.
Tit for tat.
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On November 30 2009 08:38 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 08:35 ghostWriter wrote:On November 30 2009 08:17 JWD wrote:
Lawmakers should balance protecting national security/interests with the costs of restricting freedom of speech and expression. Of course eliminating threatening influences might make a country safer, but you're forgetting to consider the value of political/religious/whatever expression. Here we are critiquing the Swiss government and its laws—that could be seen as a threatening influence, why doesn't Switzerland make visiting TL illegal too? We here at TL have little, if any influence on any events that occur in Switzerland. There's nothing more dangerous to a body than internal conflict. Why should I consider any religion to have value when the concept of religion itself has no merit whatsoever? OK I get it, you don't like religion. You still haven't explained how that justifies preventing other people who do like religion from peacefully exercising their religious beliefs.
There was a post with all the violent examples in the Koran and the Hadith in this thread. The Koran makes it okay to do violence against the non-believers (pretty much anyone who isn't Muslim).
Now, I know you think that these are smart people, they can think for themselves and take only the good things that are in the Koran and ignore the bad, etc. but the problem lies in the fact that they are brainwashed from a young age to think like in the 1st paragraph. And if you don't really believe in what is in the book, well that's just too bad, you follow otherwise you get disowned by your family and your community, of which you've been conditioned to rely on from a young age.
Of course the fact that Switzerland banned Minarets is just downright stupid, they should have just said no Islam, if they want to really affect anything.
I definitely agree with the above posters that said that immigrants should assimilate into the new country's culture, and not the other way around.
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Yeah, how does that relate in anyway to the government itself outlawing the construction of minarets? Don't you agree that there shouldn't be religious themes in a song that is meant to bring people together?
Are you really trying to compare the government of Pakistan to the government of Switzerland? I don't know about you, but I'd hope Switzerland would be a bit more tolerant of other people than Pakistan.
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On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind.
It seems that anything that can be construed as an insult towards Islam is taken as such and responded to accordingly.
Switzerland is not a Muslim nation, why should its people be subject to the culture of the minority group that was allowed into its lands? It's as if you allowed your friend to live with you and they insist on blasting heavy rock, which you hate, 5 times a day. This obviously isn't even close to being a good parallel, but you can see my point, can't you? It's not religious persecution at all, religious persecution would be killing them or expelling them or preventing them from worshipping and forcing them to either accept whatever religion is the main one. They should be happy that Switzerland is enlightened enough to allow them to worship in peace without abusing that privilege by installing minarets. Can you imagine an argument like this taking place in a Muslim country? That's real persecution
By allowing Muslims to worship, they are being tolerant. Allowing minarets to be built is going above and beyond that call. And why shouldn't they react in the same way? Why should there be a double standard in which a western country like Switzerland is supposed to be "more enlightened" and more tolerant than a country like Pakistan? Why shouldn't people in Switzerland behead people that believe in a different religion and firebomb the Iranian embassy anytime someone draws a picture of Jesus or says "death to Switzerland"? Why should we be accepting of Muslims and tolerant of their faith when they show zero tolerance towards others?
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Because we hold ourselves to our own standards. Using 'they're doing it too!' as an argument is not something adults do.
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On November 30 2009 11:41 fight_or_flight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. (a)If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. (b)Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind. (a) Or, you can just ban it, because its annoying and you don't want hear prayers to allah. Just like people have a right not to participate in religious discussions on this website. (b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution? You ban it because its annoying and you don't want to hear it.......Are you for real? I don't even know how to respond to such a statement. Also how is the call to prayer not a part of there religion? I'm sure if you ask most muslims if the call to prayer is a part of there religion they will tell you it most certainly is. An you seem to think banning this is ok because you find it annoying. I'm flabbergasted. If I said I find church bells annoying would you support banning the ringing and building of them as well?
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On November 30 2009 11:56 Orome wrote:
Because we hold ourselves to our own standards. Using 'they're doing it too!' as an argument is not something adults do.
So you think allowing them to impose their religious beliefs on the people of Switzerland without their approval is okay because "we hold ourselves to our own standards"? So if someone punches you and you disapprove of violence, you won't fight back because you hold "yourself up to your own standards"? Would you really take a beatdown in exchange for you being able to hold up your own principles?
On November 30 2009 11:56 InToTheWannaB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:41 fight_or_flight wrote:On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. (a)If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. (b)Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind. (a) Or, you can just ban it, because its annoying and you don't want hear prayers to allah. Just like people have a right not to participate in religious discussions on this website. (b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution? You ban it because its annoying and you don't want to hear it.......Are you for real? I don't even know how to respond to such a statement. Also how is the call to prayer not a part of there religion? I'm sure if you ask most muslims if the call to prayer is a part of there religion they will tell you it most certainly is. An you seem to think banning this is ok because you find it annoying. I'm flabbergasted. If I said I find church bells annoying would you support banning the ringing and building of them as well?
They are guests, they should abide by the desires and wishes of their host. And I've already put up an example of Muslims banning the building of church bells. It's not just about annoyance, it's about them asserting their own religious views in a foreign country. They can do whatever they want in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or whatever, but just because Switzerland is an enlightened nation, doesn't mean that they should allow people to do whatever they want. Also, just because you believe in freedom of religion doesn't mean you should impose your beliefs on others either. The Koran sure doesn't allow any room for any such thing.
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I initially read this as "Switzerland bans Minerals".
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On November 30 2009 11:56 InToTheWannaB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:41 fight_or_flight wrote:On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. (a)If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. (b)Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind. (a) Or, you can just ban it, because its annoying and you don't want hear prayers to allah. Just like people have a right not to participate in religious discussions on this website. (b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution? You ban it because its annoying and you don't want to hear it.......Are you for real? I don't even know how to respond to such a statement. Also how is the call to prayer not a part of there religion? I'm sure if you ask most muslims if the call to prayer is a part of there religion they will tell you it most certainly is. An you seem to think banning this is ok because you find it annoying. I'm flabbergasted. If I said I find church bells annoying would you support banning the ringing and building of them as well?
Lets be pragmatic here. Yes, this is part of their religious tradition, I said it wasn't required by their religion. Generally, most people should be ok with what other people do as long as it doesn't affect them. If it disturbing the public peace, then that is a different story.
This is one tradition (the immigants tradition of public calling to prayer) vs another tradition (the Swiss' peaceful town that their parents grew up in). I think the tradition that is in place and has been for a while has a right to remain intact.
No one is stopping anyone else from practicing their religion. Maybe those Muslims should buy some Swiss watches if they don't know when its time for prayer.
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On November 30 2009 12:02 fight_or_flight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:56 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:41 fight_or_flight wrote:On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. (a)If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. (b)Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind. (a) Or, you can just ban it, because its annoying and you don't want hear prayers to allah. Just like people have a right not to participate in religious discussions on this website. (b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution? You ban it because its annoying and you don't want to hear it.......Are you for real? I don't even know how to respond to such a statement. Also how is the call to prayer not a part of there religion? I'm sure if you ask most muslims if the call to prayer is a part of there religion they will tell you it most certainly is. An you seem to think banning this is ok because you find it annoying. I'm flabbergasted. If I said I find church bells annoying would you support banning the ringing and building of them as well? Lets be pragmatic here. Yes, this is part of their religious tradition, I said it wasn't required by their religion. Generally, most people should be ok with what other people do as long as it doesn't affect them. If it disturbing the public peace, then that is a different story. This is one tradition (the immigants tradition of public calling to prayer) vs another tradition (the Swiss' peaceful town that their parents grew up in). I think the tradition that is in place and has been for a while has a right to remain intact. No one is stopping anyone else from practicing their religion. Maybe those Muslims should buy some Swiss watches if they don't know when its time for prayer.
haha nice
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On November 30 2009 11:56 InToTheWannaB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:41 fight_or_flight wrote:On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. (a)If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. (b)Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind. (a) Or, you can just ban it, because its annoying and you don't want hear prayers to allah. Just like people have a right not to participate in religious discussions on this website. (b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution? You ban it because its annoying and you don't want to hear it.......Are you for real? I don't even know how to respond to such a statement. Also how is the call to prayer not a part of there religion? I'm sure if you ask most muslims if the call to prayer is a part of there religion they will tell you it most certainly is. An you seem to think banning this is ok because you find it annoying. I'm flabbergasted. If I said I find church bells annoying would you support banning the ringing and building of them as well?
(b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution?
not required, not not part of.
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ugh the political correctness of some of you liberals
"The Qur'an doesn't promote violence"
You get shown like half a million quotes and instead of just admitting you're wrong, try to counter-argue that the bible is the same ...
Well guess what? You're right .... That's the point all along, all religions are a fraud. I think Islam is particularily barbaric though, but I'd probably ban all religions if it was my call anyways.
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On November 30 2009 12:00 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:56 Orome wrote:
Because we hold ourselves to our own standards. Using 'they're doing it too!' as an argument is not something adults do. So you think allowing them to impose their religious beliefs on the people of Switzerland without their approval is okay because "we hold ourselves to our own standards"? So if someone punches you and you disapprove of violence, you won't fight back because you hold "yourself up to your own standards"? Would you really take a beatdown in exchange for you being able to hold up your own principles? Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:56 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:41 fight_or_flight wrote:On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. (a)If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. (b)Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind. (a) Or, you can just ban it, because its annoying and you don't want hear prayers to allah. Just like people have a right not to participate in religious discussions on this website. (b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution? You ban it because its annoying and you don't want to hear it.......Are you for real? I don't even know how to respond to such a statement. Also how is the call to prayer not a part of there religion? I'm sure if you ask most muslims if the call to prayer is a part of there religion they will tell you it most certainly is. An you seem to think banning this is ok because you find it annoying. I'm flabbergasted. If I said I find church bells annoying would you support banning the ringing and building of them as well? They are guests, they should abide by the desires and wishes of their host. And I've already put up an example of Muslims banning the building of church bells. It's not just about annoyance, it's about them asserting their own religious views in a foreign country. They can do whatever they want in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or whatever, but just because Switzerland is an enlightened nation, doesn't mean that they should allow people to do whatever they want. Also, just because you believe in freedom of religion doesn't mean you should impose your beliefs on others either. The Koran sure doesn't allow any room for any such thing.
So if you moved to Switzerland you would stop being an American? You would adopt all there culture and just push your own to the side because thats where you are living at the time? I don't see why you would have too. You practicing American culture/values does not make a Swiss person American, or any less Swiss. You would not be forcing your beliefs on anyone. You would just be yourself. I'm from NY and I am surrounded every day by people of different cultures. At the end of the day I'm still me and they are still them no matter how many puerto rican day parades i've seen, or hours I've spend in china town.
You can't call yourself a enlightened western nation and point your finger and say "They are more intolerant so the slight intolerance we have is ok." No matter how you dress it up you are saying your ok with intolerance however slight it maybe.
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On November 30 2009 07:52 Foucault wrote:
I don't really see a reason to spread religion in the world to be honest. Islam to me is oppression and women being held down by ridiculous religious beliefs. Of course there are nice things to arabic culture, but Islam is not it
Stopping religion through draconian measures, banning religious symbols and censoring religious thought and the like, might succeed in stopping religion, but does so only through inviting oppression. I don't see that as a step forward, nor do I think that banning religion should be the goal.
There's a big difference between educating someone about the flaws carried by a religious thought and oppressing a religious thought. The end does not justify the means.
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On November 30 2009 12:27 reit wrote:
ugh the political correctness of some of you liberals
"The Qur'an doesn't promote violence"
You get shown like half a million quotes and instead of just admitting you're wrong, try to counter-argue that the bible is the same ...
Well guess what? You're right .... That's the point all along, all religions are a fraud. I think Islam is particularily barbaric though, but I'd probably ban all religions if it was my call anyways.
They're both barbaric >_>
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On November 30 2009 12:27 reit wrote:
ugh the political correctness of some of you liberals
"The Qur'an doesn't promote violence"
You get shown like half a million quotes and instead of just admitting you're wrong, try to counter-argue that the bible is the same ...
Well guess what? You're right .... That's the point all along, all religions are a fraud. I think Islam is particularily barbaric though, but I'd probably ban all religions if it was my call anyways.
You're being unfair, I call myself a liberal but I know that the Koran promotes violence and that political correctness is a bit ridiculous.
On November 30 2009 12:33 InToTheWannaB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 12:00 ghostWriter wrote:On November 30 2009 11:56 Orome wrote:
Because we hold ourselves to our own standards. Using 'they're doing it too!' as an argument is not something adults do. So you think allowing them to impose their religious beliefs on the people of Switzerland without their approval is okay because "we hold ourselves to our own standards"? So if someone punches you and you disapprove of violence, you won't fight back because you hold "yourself up to your own standards"? Would you really take a beatdown in exchange for you being able to hold up your own principles? On November 30 2009 11:56 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:41 fight_or_flight wrote:On November 30 2009 11:31 InToTheWannaB wrote:On November 30 2009 11:03 Gnosis wrote:On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago. Have you lived in Africa, or the Middle East? Would you like to hear Islamic broadcasts 5 times a day, broadcast through loud speakers? Are you speaking out of ignorance, or do you know something of the reality of minarets? They want to practice their religion, they can practice it privately. I don't need to hear their prayers when I'm walking home at 5PM. I don't claim to be an authority on Islam, but that does not matter. (a)If you don't like hearing the call to prayer thats your problem. You can get on a soap box with a big ass speaker and blast some christian prayers or even some judas priest music back at them twice as loud if you want too. Thats your right and it should be theres as well. There is no reason to ban minarets. If its that big of a deal inact laws against noise pollution. That way no one can broadcast shit. Islamic, Christian, or otherwise. (b)Banning minarets is just religious persecution of the worst kind. (a) Or, you can just ban it, because its annoying and you don't want hear prayers to allah. Just like people have a right not to participate in religious discussions on this website. (b) Its not required by their religion, how is it persecution? You ban it because its annoying and you don't want to hear it.......Are you for real? I don't even know how to respond to such a statement. Also how is the call to prayer not a part of there religion? I'm sure if you ask most muslims if the call to prayer is a part of there religion they will tell you it most certainly is. An you seem to think banning this is ok because you find it annoying. I'm flabbergasted. If I said I find church bells annoying would you support banning the ringing and building of them as well? They are guests, they should abide by the desires and wishes of their host. And I've already put up an example of Muslims banning the building of church bells. It's not just about annoyance, it's about them asserting their own religious views in a foreign country. They can do whatever they want in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or whatever, but just because Switzerland is an enlightened nation, doesn't mean that they should allow people to do whatever they want. Also, just because you believe in freedom of religion doesn't mean you should impose your beliefs on others either. The Koran sure doesn't allow any room for any such thing. So if you moved to Switzerland you would stop being an American? You would adopt all there culture and just push your own to the side because thats where you are living at the time? I don't see why you would have too. You practicing American culture/values does not make a Swiss person American, or any less Swiss. You would not be forcing your beliefs on anyone. You would just be yourself. I'm from NY and I am surrounded every day by people of different cultures. At the end of the day I'm still me and they are still them no matter how many puerto rican day parades i've seen, or hours I've spend in china town. You can't call yourself a enlightened western nation and point your finger and say "They are more intolerant so the slight intolerance we have is ok." No matter how you dress it up you are saying your ok with intolerance however slight it maybe.
It's not intolerance, what don't you understand? The Swiss are allowing them to practice Islam within Switzerland's borders, I'm sure that whatever country they are from doesn't allow Christians to practice openly, forget arguments about erecting church bells. Enlightened is an obnoxious and smug term anyway, there's no real justification for believing that our western way of life is superior to theirs, although I do admit that I tend to think so, since I'm a product of American culture as well.
And yes, if I moved to Switzerland I would stop being an American and I would learn their language, culture and whatever else and try my best to assimilate, despite my different skin tone and whatever other differences separate me from the natives. Why would I move there if I had no intention of assimilating? If I insisted on building a McDonald's so that everyone can eat hamburgers instead of wurstsalat, then yes, I would expect people to oppose me and stop the building of the McDonald's.
I'm from New York too, what's your point? Do you live in Chinatown? No. Do you install minarets in Harlem and call all your fellow Muslims to prayer in the middle of someone else's neighborhood? No. There's a difference between living quietly and imposing your beliefs on others.
My parents are Korean, they moved to America. My mother converted to Christianity and they both learned English at community college. They work jobs, pay taxes, gained citizenship, watch American television, don't cause trouble and that's what I expect from others as well. I don't see the problem with assimilating. My parents enjoy the benefits of living in America, and in turn, they accept the culture around them without building Buddhist bells around them to call their fellow Buddhists to prayer, nor do they build statues of Buddha around the place.
Muslims can't say death to the West and then come to Europe and expect to be welcomed with open arms, especially when they believe that the people they come to live with are heathens to be converted. In any case, America is a special case anyway, it was built on immigration and everyone is an immigrant from within the last 500 years, unless you have some Cherokee blood in you or something. America is unique and you can't really expect to project your ideals onto other countries and expect them to stick.
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It's not intolerance, what don't you understand? They banned minarets, not enacted noise regulations applicable to everyone. That, literally, is intolerance of a specific religious custom.
If you wanted to build statues of the buddha you're perfectly allowed to. That would be tolerance. Forced assimilation IS intolerance by definition.
Muslims can't say death to the west then come to Europe? Sure. But by the same token, why would any Muslim countries accept people from the same west that's banning minarets and saying that Islam is a sham?
Guess we should just stop immigration entirely.
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United States12607 Posts
On November 30 2009 12:00 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 11:56 Orome wrote:
Because we hold ourselves to our own standards. Using 'they're doing it too!' as an argument is not something adults do. So you think allowing them to impose their religious beliefs on the people of Switzerland
Man I can't get one sentence into any of your posts in this thread without reading garbage. How is building a structure of a certain dimension on private land "imposing religious beliefs"? Minarets are designed by Muslims for Muslims.
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c'mon now people it's a free world and people should be able to follow their own religions freely.so what if a muslim building has a minarat or a church has a huge church bell?it just proves you that it's a mosque or a church.it's by no means a sign of islamisation.if billions of christians are allowed to follow their religions freely then why aren't billions of muslims allowed to follow their religion freely.this is total discrimination.
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EPT
