EPTedit: in response to WhuazGoodJaggah and WoodenSpider
Climate Scientists Hacked - Page 7
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
edit: in response to WhuazGoodJaggah and WoodenSpider | ||
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Balentine
United States14 Posts
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Nosmo
Canada210 Posts
On November 23 2009 08:36 fight_or_flight wrote: Very true, historically, scientists rarely change stance on big issues, only when they have absolutely no choice. Here are some interesting quotes from scientists: + Show Spoiler + "...the scientist makes use of a whole arsenal of concepts which he imbibed practically with his mother's milk; and seldom if ever is he aware of the eternally problematic character of his concepts. He uses this conceptual material, or, speaking more exactly, these conceptual tools of thought, as something obviously, immutably given; something having an objective value of truth which is hardly even, and in any case not seriously, to be doubted. ...in the interests of science it is necessary over and over again to engage in the critique of these fundamental concepts, in order that we may not unconsciously be ruled by them." -Albert Einstein "…science is not the danger; scientists encouraged to do bad science to survive are.” … "…changing the way modern science is funded is an enormous undertaking, but it is a necessary one if we want to protect our future. Call it managed risk." -Smith "Anybody who has studied the history of science or worked as a scientist knows that whenever something novel is discovered or proposed, there is a polarization of scientists, with hostility and bitterness that may last for generations. What wins arguments is scientific fact, and that may change as the years go by. A good example of this is the geological theory of continental drift, as proposed by Wegener in 1912. When I studied geology around 1950, continental drift was acknowledged in my undergraduate textbook as a crank theory. The first serious confirmation was in 1956, and it was finally established as the dominant theory in the early 1970s. Until that time, anybody who admitted that he or she believed in continental drift was the subject of derision and scorn. Sorry, folks, science is not and has never been the 'idealized portrait painted in textbooks'." -Allan Blair "…I suggest that most revolutions in science have taken place outside the lofty arena of the refereed journals, and with good reason. The philosophy by which these journals govern themselves virtually precludes publication of ideas that challenge an existing consensus." -William K. George "An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning." -Max Planck "We used to be able to say things once; if the message was reasonable, it had a good chance of becoming a permanent part of the structure of the field. Today, a single publication is lost; if we say it only once, it will be presumed that we have changed our mind, and we therefore must publish repeatedly. This further fuels the large publication volume that requires us to repeat." -Rolf Landauer "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible he is very probably wrong." [Clarke's First Law] Why don't you tell us where you got these quotations. In addition, academic funding is such that generally, projects are funded with a very narrow scope and a very specific result is expected. Scientists who don't fit the mold are ostracized and in danger of losing their career. Scientists that don't perform honest research and shout "conspiracy" are ostracized. BTW, this whole post stinks of pseudoscience, from the quote mines and you claiming censorship of their point of view. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 23 2009 09:45 Balentine wrote: All scientific statistics aside, this years fashion industry experienced some setbacks when it came to the summer because people weren't wearing the light clothing that they normally would have because it was colder this year. Maybe a fluke, or maybe the scientists need to recheck their information. I live on a little atoll 7 degrees north of the equator. I can stand on the east side and see the ocean on the west side. The tides have been lower than they have been in years. 5 years ago this time of year the high tide would be halfway across my back yard. This year, No. Holes in the Ozone, Global Cooling, Global Warming, Climate Change, What's next? hmm, ok but how do you explain the lossses for our mountain railways because they lack snow? How do you explain the massive increas in the snow machine market? At my University of applied science we had to work out concepts of combining Snow Machine lakes to use for electricity production during the summer because those lakes appear more and more. Oh, you also bring in a personal comparison, I can do that too. I miss my birthdays in the snow, its soon (25.) and it looks much like this year wont bring me any again. Whats next? How about talking about the current actual problems you cant deny? How about radioactive waste? Reasearch hasnt made even the tiniest step to solve the problem nuclear waste currently is. But we just give a fuck, we rather keep wasting electric energy en masse. How about next we talk about rare ressources like germanium we rely on to make semicondutor products like RAM? Or we could talk about litter, massive overproduction of litter because who gives a fuck? The problems are right in front of your eyes, you dont need populistic stuff like global warming to see that we fuck up a lot of stuff. Have you ever seen a river comming in blue than purple than yellow any day another color and nice fishys swimming funky with their stomache on the surface, cool huh? You never seen this? Thats very possible, because our parents told them chemical companys that they should control the fuck they let out in the environment, what if they said "oh thats just an illusion" like you do right now? | ||
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WhiteNights
United States252 Posts
On November 23 2009 08:09 Mortality wrote: I agree that solar radiation has not adequately accounted for recent fluctuations in global temperature. Clearly there are other factors, possibly man-made, more likely man influenced. However, the theory regarding CO2 has been failing to yield the desired results. We've clearly seen that it has not held true that CO2 drove global temperatures in the geological record and recent models have failed to accurately predict many current phenomena, most notably the decrease in global temperatures over the past decade, despite an increase in global CO2 levels throughout that time scale. It should be noted that CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas we produce. It should be noted, reflected upon, and further studied that atmospheric cycles are largely driven by living organisms other than us and we have little to no idea of how we have affected all of that. It should also be noted that it is possible that non-atmospheric pollution has served as the primary driver for global warming. And it should be noted that we still know very little and everything we know might be wrong. After all, we've only had such sophisticated measuring equipment for a very, very short time frame with regards to the geological record. In short, I am questioning the theory of CO2 serving as the driving control mechanism for environmental changes, but I am not offering a competing theory. I would like to see more of the chips fall in place first. For a model to serve as a working theory, it must be able to make accurate predictions. No model to date has done so. See DefMatrixUltra's post for an explanation of the difference between short-term and long-term predictions of a chaotic system. CO2 is not the only climate affecter we produce; scientists have also studied the effects of methane, nitrous oxide, other halocarbons, ozone, black carbon, and aerosols, and attempted to quantify them; the results of one such review is here (note the uncertainty bars as well). To say that "we're not one hundred percent certain about this stuff" is true, but concluding "so we might not know anything at all and maybe this is all garbage" is pushing it. On November 23 2009 08:09 Mortality wrote:And I'll check out your link when I have more time. As is I've spent too long on here. It's worth reading. Ciao. | ||
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Balentine
United States14 Posts
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 23 2009 09:56 Balentine wrote: WhauzGoodJaggah. When i help people out (like giving somebody a ride because their car is broken down) like sharing my sandwich with somebody, is charity. When the teacher comes by and commands you to share your sandwich, that is socialism. yes, I know, I dont question that. But my main point is, why you are so afraid of beeing forced to share your sandwich? Or take a better example, you and your classmate and your teacher are in the desert. You have water for 2 days, you are 1 day away from the next river/lake/whatever and you dont share your water with your mate. YOur teacher forces you to share your water. Yeah really, that teacher must be some real devil, sorry I failed to see that. Or if you would like it the other way arround, why is it bad if I'm forced to share my good stuff(sandwich) but its bad if I share my bad stuff (punching your face bleedy)? On November 23 2009 09:45 fight_or_flight wrote: And don't forget, the government is a corporation. edit: in response to WhuazGoodJaggah and WoodenSpider is that some wordjoke or something? what is that aiming at? | ||
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Balentine
United States14 Posts
a lot of times the southern hemisphere warms up and the northern hemisphere cools. ocean levels are universal. radioactive waste? easy. a space elevator. | ||
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Balentine
United States14 Posts
next time me, my friend, and our teacher are stuck in the desert, i'll give you my answer. if i didn't share my water my friend and the teacher would probably kill me for it. sharing is an act of kindness and is not often out of nessecity. if i didn't give my classmate a sandwich during lunch hour he wouldn't die of hunger | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 23 2009 10:15 Balentine wrote: Jaggah, there have been massive forest fires in California this year, more than past years. These forest fires were not caused by the world heating up, but by the world cooling down. The cooler temperatures caused this area in california to dry up, making everything more flammable. when my island becomes completely submerged(and i live), will you give me a million dollars? jk a lot of times the southern hemisphere warms up and the northern hemisphere cools. ocean levels are universal. radioactive waste? easy. a space elevator. yeah, is that why they burned in the winter? or spring? or fall? hmmm, wasnt it more like they burn in summer when its hot? | ||
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Balentine
United States14 Posts
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Balentine
United States14 Posts
yeah, is that why they burned in the winter? or spring? or fall? hmmm, wasnt it more like they burn in summer when its hot? did you know the far north and in antarctica these places are labeled as desert? global warming would affect all seasons, regardless of temperature | ||
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Balentine
United States14 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On November 23 2009 10:30 Balentine wrote: the point is, most forest fires burn in the summer, but are there more of them now than there were before? The same way there are stronger hurricanes rather than more hurricanes, there are larger forest fires rather than more forest fires. Good job proving your opposition's point. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 23 2009 10:22 Balentine wrote: wouldn't the railways in Lesotho do better without the snow? next time me, my friend, and our teacher are stuck in the desert, i'll give you my answer. if i didn't share my water my friend and the teacher would probably kill me for it. sharing is an act of kindness and is not often out of nessecity. if i didn't give my classmate a sandwich during lunch hour he wouldn't die of hunger Im not from Lesotho, im swiss. Our railways dont have troubles with snow, sure somtimes a few sparks fly when there is ice on the cable not not a big issue. Yes, your friend wont die if you dont give him your sandwich, so obviously it would be a stupid law to make that forces you to give him the half. But ppl ARE dying because they have no healthcare an evil evil social healthcare. what a stupid example you made, huh? I'm paying like 100$ every month for health insurance and I went only like 5 times to the doctor in the last 10 years. I also pay like 5% of my income to an "unemployment insurance fund" eventhough I have enough money on the side so I wouldnt really need it. Stuff like this is needed because ppl are egoistic fucks and only see how useful such stuff is if they suffer hard times where they would need such a thing. The huge problem with such systems is not the system itself (evil socialst stuff) but the abuse comming with it. As I said, ppl are egoistic fucks, in switzerland (also germany or france) this is a big problem with ppl abusing "invalid insurance fund" they abuse healthcare stuff they abuse "unemployment insurance fund", but it still works because not everyone is abusing it. such stuff is way more complex than: "it's socialst evil stuff, no need" | ||
TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
Tax rates - Swiss is lower! Unemployment insurance - US has it! mandatory insurance - Massachusetts has it! you name it and some place in the US will have it, and it won't just be covering the piddly 9 million or so people in Switzerland. You've got no perspective on the size. Because this is 300+ million people in the US. So the question isn't whether or not Switzerland has done it and is socialising costs among 9 million people. Instead it's like socialising cost among all countries of the European continent. Think about that for a moment. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On November 23 2009 10:22 Balentine wrote: wouldn't the railways in Lesotho do better without the snow? next time me, my friend, and our teacher are stuck in the desert, i'll give you my answer. if i didn't share my water my friend and the teacher would probably kill me for it. sharing is an act of kindness and is not often out of nessecity. if i didn't give my classmate a sandwich during lunch hour he wouldn't die of hunger So why not force people to be kind. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 23 2009 10:24 Balentine wrote: i'm not afraid to share, if your sister came into your room and started sharing your money your wouldn't be all that exited did you know the far north and in antarctica these places are labeled as desert? global warming would affect all seasons, regardless of temperature the point is, most forest fires burn in the summer, but are there more of them now than there were before? can you please not tripple post, its bad to read than. sorry, but you're wrong on that one. My brother shared a lot of stuff from me with others I aint got a problem with that. I give away my last cig I give away my last papes, I can understand if thats hard to grasp, but thats how I was raised. I always shared all I had with others, maybe because my other brother (older) never wanted to share shit with me so I wanted to do it different than him. yes I know about the ice desert. and it doesnt fucking matter if its a desert as you would also die in the forest without water, doesnt make any sense to talk about that anyway, is that some kind of distraction? yes, forest fires have increased a lot since the 70s (if i recall correctly by the factor 4, but its definitly more). thats not even the question (maybe for you), because that is acuratly mesurable data. the question is why are they increasing, is it because more ppl are dumb fucks and throw away cigs and park their car on dry leaves so that the hot "engine" will cause a fire? or is it because the summers are getting hotter so the wood is drier and will burn better. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
What is an act of kindness?? | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 23 2009 10:50 TanGeng wrote: You're Swiss and you're complaining that the US is too capitalistic!!?? wtf... Take a good look at your own country and then take a look at the US. Switzerland is far more free market than the US. Tax rates - Swiss is lower! Unemployment insurance - US has it! mandatory insurance - Massachusetts has it! you name it and some place in the US will have it, and it won't just be covering the piddly 9 million or so people in Switzerland. You've got no perspective on the size. Because this is 300+ million people in the US. So the question isn't whether or not Switzerland has done it and is socialising costs among 9 million people. Instead it's like socialising cost among all countries of the European continent. Think about that for a moment. tax rate, swiss is lower? not really if you look at this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg USA and switzerland is right next to each other, but in this graph the social taxes one pays every month is not taken in (~10%), these are the annual taxes. but the "general" taxes are not the biggest fuckup in switzerland its the flatrate taxes. "Unemployment insurance - US has it!" Guess what, switzerland has it too, since 1884 USA has it since 1932, sorry but you lose. "mandatory insurance" what do you think were those 100$ I pay every month I was talking about? whole switzerland has it vs 1 state in the USA? again, you lose. also you dont know shit about all the regulatory instances we have which makes our capitalistic system different. stuff like the LSVA which encourgaes train transportation of transit goods. thats a socialstic law that is punishing the egoistig nosy stinky trucks. switzerland is acutally very open in terms of market and politics generally, we make business with iran and usa the same. we dance on every party, and i dont like that either, but what is the point? can you tell me the relevance that has? P.S. im half an italian too, and a quarter norwegian, wanna rant on those systems to? wouldnt be of any relevance either, but maybe you would like, huh? | ||
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