• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:41
CEST 07:41
KST 14:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202513Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced27BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Shield Battery Server New Patch BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 697 users

Health Care Bill passed the House - Page 5

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 22 23 24 Next All
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 09 2009 19:56 GMT
#81
On November 10 2009 04:54 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I still don't understand how Dennis Kucinich voted No.

He's an idiot. "Oh it's not single payer I'm so pure I'm voting no." If it hadn't passed we would have fucking crucified him. I'm sure, though, that if he were the deciding vote, he'd have voted yes.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
NotJumperer
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States1371 Posts
November 09 2009 19:57 GMT
#82
--- Nuked ---
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
November 09 2009 20:06 GMT
#83
On November 10 2009 03:19 agorist wrote:
I love how logic and reason is left at the door when debating against the indoctrinated.

Sure, I'd love absolutely everyone to have insurance and access to great medical care. I'd love everyone to be able to afford the best education. I'd love everyone to be able to adequately feed and provide for their children. The important question to ask is, are these goals attainable and are they sustainable?

The reality is that resources and money is finite, and, the foolish quest for faux-egalitarianism will only end up with us facing a net-loss due to the inefficiencies of government. Inflation is a slow killer.

Try reading this paper; it's actually really short and does a good part in describing the windfalls inherit in usurping the free-market.

http://mises.org/midroad.asp


Ah, the wonderful things economics classes breed. If you want to look at things from that perspective, yes those goals are easily met and sustained. It's simply a matter of priorities. Is the US working toward any of this? Most certainly not. We're too busy trying to retain our hegemony over the rest of the world. We spend ridiculous amounts of resources in an effort to do nothing but destroy the resources of other countries (or plunder them for ourselves). Then again, it's much easier to sell war to the masses than charity.

Every argument of your kind ends right here, though. Cut out the real wasteful spending, and suddenly all kinds of things become possible. The only problem we start facing becomes overpopulation, which isn't even a problem if we're responsible and caring toward other people in the first place. Instead, we decide to have 12 kids because we can, or because our religion tells us it's a good idea.

Of course, most everyone in power (not simply the politicians, but the companies they represent) is solely concerned about bettering themselves, without a thought for the future or anyone that gets in their way. Instead of working toward more efficient renewable resources, let's make as much money as possible on nonrenewable ones while we still can! This is a common theme when you start talking about an unrestricted free market. The market is not concerned with any of the goals we're discussing here, and usually works in the opposite direction. This is why for-profit health care is a scary, scary entity. It should scare even the most right-wing person when they have to take medicine that was created with profit as it's primary goal.

And more importantly, are you asserting that it's the government's role to keep you alive? I'm sure then that you're OK with a government prohibiting you from the right to end your life. I'm also sure you'd be OK with the government prohibiting you from eating unhealthy foods and using narcotics.


Twisting words is fun! I'm not saying the government has an obligation to keep you alive, I'm saying that if the government isn't even able to keep you alive when you need it, there's a serious problem.

And let's not BS around and say that hospitals can't refuse to take you if you're dying, because that's far from the point. Every illness is not life threatening immediately. Those with solid health care, who do not have to worry about how they're going to pay doctor's bills, will have any health issues they face taken care of at nearly the earliest possible time. If they have any strange symptoms that are not easily diagnosed, they can spend the time going from doctor to specialist until something is found - many times saving their life thanks to an early catch of cancer. Everyone who doesn't have this luxury has to constantly wonder how they're ever going to be out of medical debt if they get seriously ill. Many of these people end up staving off treatable diseases until they've become much worse.

The irony in all of this discussion is that this bill isn't even that good for those of us who do support free health care. You could make a lot of money investing in insurance companies if this passes the senate, if that says anything. Of course, you'd probably just complain about the taxes incurred on the money in that case...


Also worthy of noting, is how by far and large the only people who seem to have a serious problem with health care are Americans. It never ceases to embarrass me as to how callous a country we are.
Oh, my eSports
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10498 Posts
November 09 2009 20:13 GMT
#84
The whole "if you're against socialized healthcare then you don't care about people's lives" is as stupid as the "if you don't support the war then you're against the troops"
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32051 Posts
November 09 2009 20:14 GMT
#85
On November 10 2009 05:06 QibingZero wrote:

Every argument of your kind ends right here, though. Cut out the real wasteful spending, and suddenly all kinds of things become possible.


Yeah, but trying to pass a huge health care bill and then go after wasteful spending is ass backwards.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 09 2009 20:17 GMT
#86
On November 10 2009 05:13 BlackJack wrote:
The whole "if you're against socialized healthcare then you don't care about people's lives" is as stupid as the "if you don't support the war then you're against the troops"

Healthcare saves lives. War... saves troops' lives?
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Undisputed-
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States379 Posts
November 09 2009 20:20 GMT
#87
On November 10 2009 05:17 motbob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2009 05:13 BlackJack wrote:
The whole "if you're against socialized healthcare then you don't care about people's lives" is as stupid as the "if you don't support the war then you're against the troops"

Healthcare saves lives. War... saves troops' lives?


reading comprehension ftw
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
November 09 2009 20:26 GMT
#88
On November 10 2009 05:13 BlackJack wrote:
The whole "if you're against socialized healthcare then you don't care about people's lives" is as stupid as the "if you don't support the war then you're against the troops"


Perhaps it would help if anyone who was against socialized health care actually had an argument that wasn't blatant self-interest ("I don't want to pay for someone else's health care"). It's hard to assume you care when all the objective evidence says otherwise.

On November 10 2009 04:54 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I still don't understand how Dennis Kucinich voted No.


His vote was strongly against the reliance on the current infrastructure. The insurance companies plan to profit from this, even though they're a large part of the reason health care in the US is so costly and ineffective in the first place. Basically, the government is helping people get health insurance, not health care.... and people wonder why many Americans think the only thing government does is add an extra step to things.
Oh, my eSports
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 09 2009 20:30 GMT
#89
On November 10 2009 05:20 Undisputed- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2009 05:17 motbob wrote:
On November 10 2009 05:13 BlackJack wrote:
The whole "if you're against socialized healthcare then you don't care about people's lives" is as stupid as the "if you don't support the war then you're against the troops"

Healthcare saves lives. War... saves troops' lives?


reading comprehension ftw

Don't be condescending. He was drawing a parallel between the two arguments. my point is that they're not equivalent statements.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Undisputed-
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States379 Posts
November 09 2009 20:32 GMT
#90
On November 10 2009 05:26 QibingZero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2009 05:13 BlackJack wrote:
The whole "if you're against socialized healthcare then you don't care about people's lives" is as stupid as the "if you don't support the war then you're against the troops"


Perhaps it would help if anyone who was against socialized health care actually had an argument that wasn't blatant self-interest ("I don't want to pay for someone else's health care"). It's hard to assume you care when all the objective evidence says otherwise.

Show nested quote +
On November 10 2009 04:54 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I still don't understand how Dennis Kucinich voted No.


His vote was strongly against the reliance on the current infrastructure. The insurance companies plan to profit from this, even though they're a large part of the reason health care in the US is so costly and ineffective in the first place. Basically, the government is helping people get health insurance, not health care.... and people wonder why many Americans think the only thing government does is add an extra step to things.


Your argument is that people are selfish because they won't give you free stuff.
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
LeoTheLion
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
China958 Posts
November 09 2009 20:32 GMT
#91
Wait. I thought it wasn't free. People still have to pay insurance. Government is just starting a state run insurance company.
Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy. -Chairman Mao
mangomango
Profile Joined September 2009
United States265 Posts
November 09 2009 20:43 GMT
#92
It's gonna pass after a lot of hand wringing and arm twisting. Oh and watering down to the point that it's not worth the paper it will be printed on. We should have a single payer system.
Husky: Every drone you lose is like a needle in the eye. Nony: probes win $10k (Earn it! Idra Fighting) :P
Undisputed-
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States379 Posts
November 09 2009 20:44 GMT
#93
On November 10 2009 05:43 mangomango wrote:
It's gonna pass after a lot of hand wringing and arm twisting. Oh and watering down to the point that it's not worth the paper it will be printed on. We should have a single payer system.


your argument is invalid
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
diehilde
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany1596 Posts
November 09 2009 20:45 GMT
#94
oh lord, such misinformation in this thread. Why has nobody opposed the argument that a healthcare system costs much money and therefore weakens the economy? If you look at business ethics or modern economy, such claims are unfounded. In fact one can argue it strenghthens the economy, because it enables more people who have problems (in this case get sick, other example would be to get unemployed) to get productive again and contribute to the economy. Also, it enables people to invest more riskily on the market (in this case health, other example would be money), potentially creating more innovations/revenues and general wealth.

Its not like the scientific debate about social market economy is clear cut in terms of it costing more money than it generates or vice versa. It kinda shocks me that people seem oblivious to the fact that there are good economical arguments for a social market economy and even come up with horseshit like "stealing". Try to inform yourself a lil next time pls.
Savior: "I will cheat everyone again in SC2!" - SCII Beta Tester
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-09 20:50:02
November 09 2009 20:46 GMT
#95
On November 10 2009 05:30 motbob wrote:
Don't be condescending. He was drawing a parallel between the two arguments. my point is that they're not equivalent statements.

Except health insurance *doesn't* save people's lives. It just prevents them from getting a huge bill after their lives have been saved. What happens when people can't pay that? They just don't pay. It happens ALL the time. Someone gets in a car accident/gunshot wound/etc. The hospital doesn't dump them on the street because they can't pay. It's not like people are *prevented* from having their lives saved in critical moments by costs. It's just dealing with the huge bill afterward. And arguably, if your life just got saved, you DO owe that person in some large form. You don't have some right to get out of that.

You have a right for your life to be preserved. You don't have a right to the money that pays for such things. You could argue that large medical costs have some implicit pressure on someone's decision making in those sorts of situations, but to argue that healthcare as a right is synonymous to the right to life is just wrong.
Moderator
Shizuru~
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Malaysia1676 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-09 20:53:51
November 09 2009 20:47 GMT
#96


Communitarianism the new word yo!

a big FUCK YOU to the disabled... apparently, none of u guys actually knows what this healthcare bill is really about.
betaben
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
681 Posts
November 09 2009 20:48 GMT
#97
On November 10 2009 05:32 LeoTheLion wrote:
Wait. I thought it wasn't free. People still have to pay insurance. Government is just starting a state run insurance company.

this is the issue - currently, people that pay insurance get the insurance, and some don't pay it and don't get it. proposed, is that those that pay provide insurance for everyone - even those that don't pay.
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7222 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-09 20:55:54
November 09 2009 20:50 GMT
#98
I'll stay on topic and focus on the bill's chances of passage. As currently written, the House bill with a direct public option is not capable of defeating a filibuster and would fail. We know this because all Republicans have come out in opposition and so has Lieberman. That's 41 votes against at least for the current version. Moderate Democrats such as Nelson have expressed concerns but they can probably have their arms twisted to vote for the bill.

So there will have to be changes to pass the bill in the Senate. Olympia Snowe, a Republican, has supported a "trigger" public option which would only deploy it if premiums fail to fall, which of course they won't. That or some other form of compromise will be needed to get the bill out of the Senate by the barest margin of 60-40. At that point, it's a question of whether Pelosi can keep the liberal members of her caucus on board with the compromise. And this depends on how big of changes Snowe demands for her support of the bill. If it is just delaying the public option with a trigger I *think* Pelosi can hold the most liberal members of her caucus in line. If, as I suspect, Snowe demands changes to the scope and cost (iirc she wanted it around $800-900 billlion, the House bill is over $1 trillion), then it will probably get bogged down in negotiations and may not pass in the Senate or the House.

My read of the situation is that a public option is a vote or two shy of reality. I'll be very interested to see how this plays out in the coming weeks.
日本語が分かりますか
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-09 20:53:48
November 09 2009 20:51 GMT
#99
On November 10 2009 05:46 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2009 05:30 motbob wrote:
Don't be condescending. He was drawing a parallel between the two arguments. my point is that they're not equivalent statements.

Except health insurance *doesn't* save people's lives. It just prevents them from getting a huge bill after their lives have been saved. What happens when people can't pay that? They just don't pay. It happens ALL the time. Someone gets in a car accident/gunshot wound/etc. The hospital doesn't dump them on the street because they can't pay.

After they are stabilized, the hospital does exactly that.

You can't get treatment for ANYTHING that isn't immediately deadly without health insurance. Cancer? Heart problems? You can't say that people in the United States get free treatment for heart problems just because heart attacks are treated.
My read of the situation is that a public option is a vote or two shy of reality. I'll be very interested to see how this plays out in the coming weeks.

I think the public option will be in the final bill out of conference. A majority in both chambers support it so I don't see any reason why the House bill won't be the final bill.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-09 20:58:25
November 09 2009 20:55 GMT
#100
On November 10 2009 05:51 motbob wrote:
After they are stabilized, the hospital does exactly that.

Yes. Because their life is no longer in immediate danger. Housing and feeding those without the means to do so themselves is part of existing social programs, and not the business of a hospital. I don't see how that's relevant.

On November 10 2009 05:51 motbob wrote:
You can't get treatment for ANYTHING that isn't immediately deadly without health insurance. Cancer? Heart problems? You can't say that people in the United States get free treatment for heart problems just because heart attacks are treated.

Point taken, but it's questionable how relevant the right to life in its most explicit form is to diseases that affect things months or years down the line. Like I said, you can make the argument that the right to life relates to universal healthcare, but you can't just say something on the order of "People have a right to life, ergo governments should provide health insurance. Q.E.D." It's not that simple.
Moderator
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 22 23 24 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 20m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4829
Nal_rA 672
Leta 325
PianO 287
JulyZerg 82
zelot 73
Sacsri 61
Aegong 44
GoRush 28
Bale 22
[ Show more ]
BeSt 4
League of Legends
JimRising 785
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K504
Super Smash Bros
Westballz38
Other Games
summit1g13775
shahzam1112
WinterStarcraft411
hungrybox409
Maynarde153
SortOf49
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1054
BasetradeTV50
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta68
• practicex 48
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift7539
• Rush1710
• Stunt603
• HappyZerGling69
Other Games
• Scarra3630
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4h 20m
WardiTV European League
10h 20m
PiGosaur Monday
18h 20m
OSC
1d 6h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 10h
The PondCast
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Online Event
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.