|
Be sure to vote for your favorite guide here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=95009
Before I start, a lot of people have been PMing me asking what it is like to be an actuary. Rather than sending me a bunch of PMs, feel free to ask any questions you may have about being an actuary in this thread. Now, about counting cards...
How to Count Cards in Blackjack
The term “card counting” can be very broad and has different meanings depending on which system you are referring to. For the purposes of this guide, I will be discussing the Hi-Lo Counting Method for use by a single player playing relatively low stakes ($10-$100 hands) in Atlantic City. I will not drown this guide in mathematical jargon but instead limit it to all you need to know to become a successful card counter.
Why do I count cards?
1. Money.
2. I have gotten free food and rooms from casinos in terms of comps for all the time I have spent playing.
3. Free drinks.
4. It is fun to stick it to the casinos.
5. I enjoy playing the game.
Before I get started on the actual counting process, there are a few myths about card counting that I would like to debunk.
1. Card counting is illegal
Card counting is certainly not illegal. In Atlantic City, you cannot even be asked to leave the casino if you are suspected of counting. More on this later…
2. You have to be a mathematical genius to count
As long as you are able to add, subtract, and divide in your head, you can count.
3. You have to have a photographic memory
With practice, almost anyone can memorize what needs to be memorized to be a successful counter.
4. Counting means you will make huge profits immediately
If you’ve seen the movie 21, erase it from your memory. While you will win in the long run if you count, you can easily hit a bad streak of luck and lose a considerable amount of your bankroll. You will likely not be able to retire after counting for a month. It is a long process that takes a considerable amount of time and money to get started.
5. You need to be part of a card counting team
While being part of a team will increase your profits, you can still win without one.
Section 1 - The basic rules of the game
If you have ever played blackjack before, you may want to skip this section and move to Section 2.
Blackjack is a relatively simple game where the goal is to have the sum of your cards be as close to 21 as possible. 21 is the best hand and anything over 21 is a “bust” where you lose your bet. Numerical cards are worth their face value, with a Jack, Queen, and King being worth 10 and an Ace being worth either 1 or 11, whichever gives you a higher total without exceeding 21. A “soft” hand refers to any hand with an Ace that may have more than one value. For example, an Ace and a 7 would be considered a “Soft 18” as it can either be an 8 or an 18. An initial hand of Ace and any card worth 10 is considered a “blackjack” and pays out 3:2. So if you were to bet $10 and received blackjack, you would retain your initial $10 bet and also receive $15 more.
Each player starts by placing an initial bet in the betting circle in front of their seat. The dealer will then deal two face-up cards which everyone can see. The dealer starts with one face-up card and one face-down card which is hidden from everyone. After the initial cards are dealt, the players choose to take another card (hit) or to not take a card (stand). You initiate a hit by tapping the table in front of your bet with a finger and you initiate a stand by waving your hand over your bet in a straight line. After the final player is done, the dealer reveals his face-down cards and then proceeds to hit until he has at least a 17 or he busts. If your sum is greater than the dealer’s sum or the dealer busts while you are still in play, you win. If your sum is less than the dealer’s sum or you bust, you lose. If you and the dealer have equal sums, it is a “push” and you neither win nor lose any money. Note that if you bust and then the dealer busts after you, you still lose your initial bet. This is one of the reasons that the dealer has an advantage over the player.
Other than “hitting” or “standing,” there are two other moves that I will discuss in this guide. If you have two identical cards in terms of value (88, 22, AA, KQ, 10J) on your initial two cards, you may choose to “split” them. You initiate a split by placing a matching bet next to your initial bet and holding up your index and middle finger like the peace sign. Splitting allows you to play two hands at once with each hand having one of your original cards. For example, if you are dealt two 8’s, you can split them and instead of having a lousy total of 16, you can start off with 2 new hands with 8 being one of the cards for both hands. If you are dealt ANOTHER 8, you may split again if you match your initial bet. Most casinos allow 3 splits total or 4 hands at once.
The next move I will discuss is “doubling down.” You initiate this move by placing an additional bet (can be anything from 0 to your initial bet) next to your original bet and holding up your index finger. After initiating a double down, you receive one (AND ONLY one) more card to complete your hand. For example, if you were dealt a sum of 11 with your initial two cards, you could choose to double down and receive one more card.
I will not discuss the “surrender” rule because I have never seen it available in AC.
Section 2 – Basic Strategy
So now you know how to play the game, but surely you want to know how to WIN the game. In blackjack, there is always a correct move given the situation. Basic strategy is ALWAYS right (unless you are counting, but I will cover that later). While basic strategy will not give you an advantage over the house, it will reduce the house’s edge to less than 0.5%, which is very good and the best odds you will see in the casino involving any game where you are playing against the house. You may be thinking, “How is basic strategy always right if it still give the house an advantage?” The answer is that basic strategy always either maximizes your expected win, or minimizes your expected loss. For example, by hitting a 16 against a 10, you are still going to lose the vast majority of the time, but you will lose less often than if you were to stay. Although the house does have a slight advantage, combining basic strategy with card counting will turn the tides in your favor.
Each casino has its own set of rules for their blackjack games, and for this guide I will be focusing on S17 (Dealer has to stay on a soft 17), 6 deck games that allow doubling down after a split. My casino of choice in Atlantic City, the Borgata, adheres to these rules.
While “Basic Strategy” is very basic and simple, it will take some time to memorize effectively. Here is a chart of what to do in any situation that may arise.
+ Show Spoiler +
Always, always, ALWAYS do what the chart tells you to do. If you hit 16 against a dealer 7 ten times in a row and every time you end up busting, it does not change the fact that it is the CORRECT MOVE. Don’t really want to split your 8’s against a dealer Ace? Too bad. One of the most important things for a card counter to have is an unshakable faith in the system. There will be tough losses, but you have to be able to forget about them and realize that the system is correct and the only way to win in the long run is to follow it. I have heard many players say something to the effect of, “Sometimes you have to go with your gut!” This is code for, “I don’t know how to maximize my winnings in this game and I do not understand probability.”
Your task is to memorize that basic strategy chart like the back of your hand. If need be, make flash cards with certain situations that are giving you trouble and quiz yourself. You should be able to instantly know what to do in any situation that may arise. If you are struggling to remember basic moves in the comfort of your own home, you do not stand a chance in the fast paced chaos that is the casino.
I would recommend against proceeding to Section 3 if you have not yet memorized the basic strategy table. Basic strategy is the backbone of card counting and you cannot win without it.
Section 3 – The Running Count
To be blunt, the higher the count is, the better off you are as a player and the more you want to bet. What is the “count” you ask?
The Hi-Lo count is a relatively simple way to count cards. In this system, the cards 2-6 are given a point value of +1, 7-9 are given a value of 0, and 10-A are given a value of -1. All you have to do is either add 1 or -1 to your after the dealer shows each card. So if the dealer deals a 10, K, 7, the count is -2. If the dealer deals 2, A, 4, 3, 3, 7, 6, Q, 2 the count is +4. Simple enough, right?
As you are playing, you should have a “running count” in your head which takes into account all cards that have been dealt in this current shoe. (6 decks in this case) For example, if you had a running count of +9 in your head, and the next card dealt was a 7, the running count would remain +9. If the next card was a 10, the count would be +8. If the running count was -3 and a 2 was dealt, the running count would then be -2.
When I keep the count in my head, for positive numbers I will simply think of the number and for negatives I will insert an “M” before the number. For example, a count of +3 would be 3 and a count of -3 would be M3.
A good trick that I like to use is to count each card in pairs. This way, sometimes you will get two cards that cancel each other out (2K, 78, 4A, etc) and you will not have to adjust your running count in your head. I like to wait until the first player receives his second card to begin counting on any given hand. That way, I can immediately begin adjusting my running count by looking at two cards at a time.
Now that you know how to keep a running count, you should begin to practice immediately. Just take any full deck of cards, remove three of the cards, and go through the deck as fast as you can while looking at two cards at a time. After you are done with the deck, you should have a count ranging from M3 to 3, and then you can check the three cards you set off to the side to see if you had the correct running count. Both speed and accuracy are of the utmost importance for this drill, so keep practicing until you consistently get the correct count. You want to be able to get through one deck accurately in less than 30 seconds. I have not done this drill in a few months and just went through a deck in 25 seconds. It may be challenging at first, but you will get the hang of it if you keep at it. Once you can get an accurate count in under 30 seconds 10 times in a row, you should be confident enough to move on to the next step.
Section 4 – The True Count
I told you in order to count cards, you needed to know how to add, subtract, and divide. This is the dividing portion of the lesson. While a running count is great, the true count is really the tool that allows you to make some money. The true count is simply the running count divided by the number of decks remaining in the shoe. For example, in a 6 deck shoe, if the dealer has already dealt 1 whole deck and the running count is +10, the true count would be +2. If the dealer dealt 2 decks and the running count is +7, the true count is 7/4, or +1 if you round down (I always do).
To determine how many decks are left in the shoe, I look at the discard rack and subtract however many decks are in there from 6. For example, if I see 1 deck in the discard rack, it means there are 5 decks left to play. 4 decks discarded, 2 decks left to play, etc. If you really have a good eye, feel free to try to pinpoint it down to half decks if you’d like, but as a beginner I’d recommend staying with full decks to avoid mistakes.
To avoid having the shoes dealt down to the last card, there are “cut cards” that the dealers place in the shoe to tell them to shuffle after the deck has reached a certain point. Most dealers insert the card at around 75% of the shoe meaning 4.5 decks played in a 6 deck game. The deeper the cut card (the more decks that will be dealt), the better it is for you so be sure to scout out the tables and dealers for a decent cut before you sit down.
Section 5 – Betting System
As I mentioned earlier, the higher the count, the greater the advantage is for the player. This translates into, “If the count is high, bet more.” This is the betting system I use and note that the count is the True Count, not the Running Count. As I said before, I always round the true count down to the nearest integer.
+ Show Spoiler +
Additionally, if the count is positive, I like to play more than one hand at a time. If there is nobody to your left or right, most casinos will let you play up to three hands at once. So when the True Count is greater than or equal to 5, I will bet $100 on three spots for a total of $300 if possible. Spreading the $300 over three spots will be less risky than just betting the $300 on one spot because you have three different hands that you may win or lose.
My minimum bet is $10 which is the minimum you will find at most casinos. Ideally, your maximum bet should be about 10x your minimum bet. Your maximum bet should also be 1/100 of your total bankroll that you are willing to lose playing blackjack. So with a maximum bet of $100, my blackjack bankroll is $10,000. The reason for this is that although you may have the advantage, it is possible to lose a lot of big bets in a row. Having your big bet set as 1% of your bankroll reduces the chances of you going bankrupt to almost impossible.
If you want to live on the edge and have your max bet set at $100 with a bankroll of anything less than $10,000, just be aware that with bets of $100 you could get on losing or winning streaks of $3,000+ at any given time fairly easily.
Section 6 – The Illustrious 18
The Illustrious 18 are variations on basic strategy that you should adopt after the count reaches certain points. As the true count reaches or exceeds the specific number in each of the following situations, you should make the opposite move of what you would normally do.
+ Show Spoiler +
Section 7 – Closing Thoughts and Tips
1. Do not place any bet in front of you that you cannot afford to lose.
2. Sitting at the leftmost seat will give you the most time to count as you will be dealt last.
3. Scout the tables out to sit at the table with the deepest cut card possible.
4. If the move is to double down, always do the maximum.
5. For Atlantic City casinos, I recommend the Borgata. They have great rules for blackjack and it is also a very nice casino in general.
6. If you want to play a $10 table, get there in the early afternoon. The later it gets, the higher the limits become.
7. You will hear other players say things that are false all the time. Do not argue with them unless you just want to get frustrated.
8. You WILL lose a huge amount at some point. One instance where I was playing 3 hands at once, I lost $700 in 3 hands, or about 90 seconds. You have to be able to emotionally handle swings like that.
9. What another player at the table does has no effect on how much you are expected to win. A player doing a stupid move will help you just as often as it hurts you.
10. Keep a log of your trips. It is always good to see progress you have made.
11. In Atlantic City, the casinos cannot kick you out for card counting.
12. On more than one occasion, the pit boss has become suspicious of me and limited my betting to one hand at a time as well as shuffling the shoe a lot more often than normal. This hurts my expected winnings, but it beats getting kicked out.
13. Be friendly with the dealer, other players and pit boss if possible. It will throw the casino off your scent.
14. This is my log of all my trips to AC since I have started counting.
+ Show Spoiler +
I hope you guys have found this to be informative. If you have any questions, let me know.
|
United States1967 Posts
awesome guide... two questions
1.) how can a casino even prove that someone is card counting using the above method?
2.) with a 20k bankroll, would you move both min and max bet up to 20/200 or something like 10/200?
|
Good questions.
1. They can't really "prove it" per se, but they don't need to prove anything. Some things that may cause them to suspect you are:
a. If you sit in the last seat.
b. If you are betting the minimum for a while then suddenly have a huge increase in your bet.
c. Always returning to your minimum bet when a new shoe starts
d. Winning a lot of money (Doesn't necessarily mean you're counting, but it will certainly draw attention to you)
e. Illustrious 18 moves may tip them off. (Splitting 10s vs a 5 or 6 especially)
Now just because these draw attention to you, I will still do them every time. I'm not going to decrease my expected win just to disguise that I count.
2. Personal preference. I would probably do 20/200 because doing a 10/200 would probably draw a lot of attention to yourself from the pit. There is no magic formula to the betting scheme though. I spread it the way I do to try to curb some of the variance. Everytime you're betting $10, you're expected to lose. But if the count is high enough where you're betting $20 or more, you are expected to win. The more you bet, the more you will win.
|
I'm going to have to try this out sometime.
|
Is it customary to tip the dealer in blackjack, and if so, when and how much?
|
On June 03 2009 08:24 ShadowDrgn wrote:
Is it customary to tip the dealer in blackjack, and if so, when and how much?
It is up to you, but I personally don't tip. Most of the players I have seen do not tip, and the ones who do usually tip $1 if they win a big hand or something. Regardless, the small tips really add up over time and can get you in trouble if you get overly generous.
|
I will probably never try this out, but I read the whole thing and found it very interesting. Thanks!
|
I have a question though, are there maximum bets? Could you do like 100/1000, with your bankroll being 100k?
I mean, the game doesn't get any harder, it's always the same regardless of the money you put in. So your meager 20$/h could shoot up to 200$/h if you had the bankroll?
|
On June 03 2009 09:17 snowbird wrote:
I have a question though, are there maximum bets? Could you do like 100/1000, with your bankroll being 100k?
I mean, the game doesn't get any harder, it's always the same regardless of the money you put in. So your meager 20$/h could shoot up to 200$/h if you had the bankroll?
well technically yes but keep in mind there's bet limits, so generally you can't show up with $1000 minbets or whatever. also the sample size in his SS is still quite small, his actual winrate could be much higher or much lower (or maybe about the same).
i've read about counting before and have tried it (the basic system as outlined here in fact; there's complex ones too but sometimes simple works good enough). This post summed it up quite well i must say. gj
oh yeah also, it's pretty important to have this down pat. and not like a bit of practice, but being able to keep the count without spending all your mental energy on it. people will talk to you, the last thing you wanna do is "shush i'm trying to count here". i mean you don't have to have very deep conversations, but even being able to keep up a very basic convo during practice will help.
|
On June 03 2009 09:17 snowbird wrote:
I have a question though, are there maximum bets? Could you do like 100/1000, with your bankroll being 100k?
I mean, the game doesn't get any harder, it's always the same regardless of the money you put in. So your meager 20$/h could shoot up to 200$/h if you had the bankroll?
At the $10 tables, the max bet the casino allows is $1,000. For the $100 minimums, I'd imagine the max would be $10,000 per hand.
But yes, if you have a bankroll of $100,000, you can safely do a $100/$1,000 spread. Likewise, my expected win would increase 10x of what it is at a $10/$100 spread.
I believe the MIT blackjack team had max bets of $10,000 per hand. That is a lot of pepperoni on the pizza.
|
So you are averaging about 20$ an hour doing that. I dare say- with all of the intelligence of yours, i could think of things far more profitable....
|
On June 03 2009 09:39 Misrah wrote:
So you are averaging about 20$ an hour doing that. I dare say- with all of the intelligence of yours, i could think of things far more profitable....
As I said, it's something I enjoy doing. The free rooms, food, drinks and being able to enjoy the night life with my friends in AC are also bonuses.
Besides that, I graduated from college a few weeks ago and I will be starting my job as an actuary in Manhattan in a few weeks. You are right though, that job will be far more profitable than $20 an hour.
|
Cool guide. I've been really into learning how to play casino/gambling games recently, obviously mostly no limit Texas Hold'em  Watched some videos before on card counting in Blackjack and this guide is really cool and interesting. Once I'm 18 I think I can start going to casinos here in California and Las Vegas when I'm 21 :DDD
And at Misrah, maybe he is but if he was much more into it he could probably be making much more with bigger bets :O
|
A quick note about this guide vs the poker guide..
The value of a guide like this is exactly the same as it was 6 years ago...
The value of the poker guide compared to the same guide 6 years ago has plummeted so drastically.. poker is such a fucking dead end right now.
Really enjoyed this and may start learning with a friend of mine when we have drinks at my place.
|
On June 03 2009 09:47 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2009 09:39 Misrah wrote:
So you are averaging about 20$ an hour doing that. I dare say- with all of the intelligence of yours, i could think of things far more profitable.... As I said, it's something I enjoy doing. The free rooms, food, drinks and being able to enjoy the night life with my friends in AC are also bonuses. Besides that, I graduated from college a few weeks ago and I will be starting my job as an actuary in Manhattan in a few weeks. You are right though, that job will be far more profitable than $20 an hour.
Ohh it's not your main source of income- you have a job lol in that case KICKASS! that is some nice money on the side! I thought that you were doing this instead of a job lol
|
Excellent guide! We have a yearly fundraiser where i am that does casino like things including blackjack. Last year i tried to study up so that i could do well at it but didn't have the time to do anything more than memorize the bidding table. Despite that, your practical tips and exercises really bring the practice down to earth compared to the relatively bare-bones guides i saw elsewhere and you sharing your payout sheet really puts it all in perspective!. Thanks a lot for putting your experiences into words.
If you wanted to include this in the sc2 beta key contests you should mention it in your post.
|
Wow....Thanks
Question: why take the effort to write this up for us?
edit: I have a 20 hr plane ride tomorrow; I'm going to print this shit, bring notecards, and learn.
|
It was an enjoyable write up to read.
Do you know what the counting rules in Vegas are? Probably a lot stricter, yeah?
On June 03 2009 11:22 inReacH wrote:
A quick note about this guide vs the poker guide..
The value of a guide like this is exactly the same as it was 6 years ago...
The value of the poker guide compared to the same guide 6 years ago has plummeted so drastically.. poker is such a fucking dead end right now.
Really enjoyed this and may start learning with a friend of mine when we have drinks at my place.
Why is poker such a dead end right now? Because of all the new blood? Because the skill level has started sky-rocketing?
|
Great guide. Some things I didn't get though, you said "If the dealer deals 2, A, 4, 3, 3, 7, K, Q, 2 the count is +4." Isn't it +1 -1 +1 +1 +1 0 -1 -1 +1, with the overall count being +2. Also, how do you know how many decks there are in the discard pile? Is it just estimation by the thickness of the cards? and can you also elaborate a bit on the illustrious 18. Thanks!
|
On June 03 2009 12:35 thunk wrote:
Why is poker such a dead end right now? Because of all the new blood? Because the skill level has started sky-rocketing?
the skill has skyrocketed ridiculously compared to what the general level was when online poker first boomed. Back then if you knew the basic strategy you could be earning money at mid-high stakes, nowadays you need fairly advanced strategy to just beat mid-stakes... This is mainly because instead of the tables being mostly random people going online to gamble cos they're bored, it's now mostly people who study the game immensely and pay for coaching from higher players.
edit: that being said, poker isnt a deadend, it's just much harder to profit from than it was 5 years ago... There's still people making sick, sick amounts of money playing poker.
|
On June 03 2009 11:22 inReacH wrote:
A quick note about this guide vs the poker guide..
The value of a guide like this is exactly the same as it was 6 years ago...
The value of the poker guide compared to the same guide 6 years ago has plummeted so drastically.. poker is such a fucking dead end right now.
Really enjoyed this and may start learning with a friend of mine when we have drinks at my place.
Thank you!
|
On June 03 2009 12:35 thunk wrote:
It was an enjoyable write up to read.
Do you know what the counting rules in Vegas are? Probably a lot stricter, yeah?
Being an east coast guy, I have never been to Vegas, but I believe they are allowed to kick people out for "trespassing" as they wish.
|
On June 03 2009 13:33 pangshai wrote:
Great guide. Some things I didn't get though, you said "If the dealer deals 2, A, 4, 3, 3, 7, K, Q, 2 the count is +4." Isn't it +1 -1 +1 +1 +1 0 -1 -1 +1, with the overall count being +2. Also, how do you know how many decks there are in the discard pile? Is it just estimation by the thickness of the cards? and can you also elaborate a bit on the illustrious 18. Thanks!
Fixed the error in the example. Sorry about that.
I know how many decks are in the discard rack by the height of the pile. It takes time to get the hang of it, but it comes easy with time.
What exactly do you want to know about the Illustrious 18?
|
great read. gonna try to get the basic chart down on my ride to cali (6 hours) and the whole running count thing during flight to chian (16 hours) x_x
but its gonna be fun :D
|
On June 03 2009 15:10 xJacky wrote:
great read. gonna try to get the basic chart down on my ride to cali (6 hours) and the whole running count thing during flight to chian (16 hours) x_x
but its gonna be fun :D
u mean china. unless chian exists, i don't know.
|
as a high level poker player, i must grudgingly admit that the previous posts are true about the average player becoming increasingly tough
in other words, if you haven't picked up poker yet and are looking to, it's probably not a good idea due to the current high skill level
that said, if you really want to be good, you will probably end up ignoring my advice and then proving me wrong, DUCY?
|
O gosh, this requires a ridiculous amount of brain power! Too many decks make it too hard...T_T
|
On June 03 2009 15:01 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2009 13:33 pangshai wrote:
Great guide. Some things I didn't get though, you said "If the dealer deals 2, A, 4, 3, 3, 7, K, Q, 2 the count is +4." Isn't it +1 -1 +1 +1 +1 0 -1 -1 +1, with the overall count being +2. Also, how do you know how many decks there are in the discard pile? Is it just estimation by the thickness of the cards? and can you also elaborate a bit on the illustrious 18. Thanks! What exactly do you want to know about the Illustrious 18?
say its a 10,10 vs 5. according to the rules i'm supposed to stand, but if the true count is +5, i instead split? also some of the illutrious 18 come into effect when the count is 0, wouldn't that be similar to just disagreeing with the general rule? and what is insurance?
another couple of questions, when it says DS and D (stand/hit when not allowed). why would you not be allowed to double? is it cause you already hit to reach that amount? also, do most casinos use a 6 deck shoe?
|
On June 03 2009 16:04 exalted wrote:
as a high level poker player, i must grudgingly admit that the previous posts are true about the average player becoming increasingly tough
in other words, if you haven't picked up poker yet and are looking to, it's probably not a good idea due to the current high skill level
that said, if you really want to be good, you will probably end up ignoring my advice and then proving me wrong, DUCY?
as a low level poker player, I can say that if you want to, its a great hobby to pick up, just don't expect to make any real money from it
do you have any idea what the card counting rules in cali are? I doubt I'll ever get my roll to 10k, but if I do, I might consider this (although with a 4k roll, you can play live 1/2 and you'd only need a 5 ptbb/hr winrate to match your $20/hr)
is your $20/hr, are you running above or below expectation?
EDIT: do you know where the proofs for your chart are?
|
Kishime I'm wondering, what is the expected edge over the house assuming perfect play/count?
|
On June 03 2009 13:33 pangshai wrote:
say its a 10,10 vs 5. according to the rules i'm supposed to stand, but if the true count is +5, i instead split? also some of the illutrious 18 come into effect when the count is 0, wouldn't that be similar to just disagreeing with the general rule? and what is insurance?
another couple of questions, when it says DS and D (stand/hit when not allowed). why would you not be allowed to double? is it cause you already hit to reach that amount? also, do most casinos use a 6 deck shoe?
If the count exceeds 5 and you have a 10, 10 v a 5 you would then split. If the count is higher than 0 and you have a 10 v 6 you are supposed to stand. If the count is lower than 0 and you have a 12 v a 4 you are supposed to hit. If the count is higher than 3, take insurance. 10 v 10, 11 v A, 9 v 2, 10 v A, 9 v 7, double down when it exceeds the respective count.
Insurance is a prop bet that the casino lets you do when the dealer has an Ace showing. Before the dealer checks the face-down card to see if they have blackjack, they will allow you to place a side bet of up to half of your original bet. If the dealer does have blackjack, your side bet will pay out 2-1, you will lose your original bet, and will break even in the end. If the dealer doesn't have blackjack, you lose the insurance bet and then play the hand as normal. If you are not counting, you should NEVER take insurance.
Yes, suppose you had A 2 5 v a dealer 4, you would want to double if it was your initial two cards, but since you cannot, you should stand.
I would say the vast majority use a 6 deck shoe, with a few 8 decks sprinkled around. A 6 deck shoe is very slightly better than an 8 deck shoe.
|
On June 03 2009 18:30 Vivi57 wrote:
do you have any idea what the card counting rules in cali are? I doubt I'll ever get my roll to 10k, but if I do, I might consider this (although with a 4k roll, you can play live 1/2 and you'd only need a 5 ptbb/hr winrate to match your $20/hr)
is your $20/hr, are you running above or below expectation?
EDIT: do you know where the proofs for your chart are?
By card counting rules do you mean measures a casino can take you stop you, or blackjack rules there in general? Either way, I would guess they would be similar to Vegas.
Again, you do not NEED a $10k bankroll if you want to do a spread similar to mine, but just be aware that you are taking a risk and may have to deal with some nasty variance. It will certainly gives you some thrills though.
Honestly, I'm not really sure what my expected win is. It really depends on your betting spread, what rules you're playing against, the depth of the cut card, etc. I would imagine it would be anywhere between $10-$30. The only thing I really care about at this point is that I am expected to win.
I didn't include the proofs for my charts because although interesting to some, it just confuses the hell out of most people and is not something you need to know to be successful. Stanford Wong publishes a book called "Professional Blackjack" which is a tome of that kind of information. I'm sure you could also find the information online somewhere.
|
On June 03 2009 19:44 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Kishime I'm wondering, what is the expected edge over the house assuming perfect play/count?
It depends on the system you're using, the rules the casino employs, how deep the dealer places the cut card, how big your bet spread is, etc. For Hi-Lo, I think it's around a 1-3% edge.
|
On June 03 2009 09:48 Superiorwolf wrote:Cool guide. I've been really into learning how to play casino/gambling games recently, obviously mostly no limit Texas Hold'em Watched some videos before on card counting in Blackjack and this guide is really cool and interesting. Once I'm 18 I think I can start going to casinos here in California and Las Vegas when I'm 21 :DDD And at Misrah, maybe he is but if he was much more into it he could probably be making much more with bigger bets :O
wtf I was joking but you really are under 18?!!!??!??
|
When you are counting, is it considered suspicious if you are watching all the cards dealt to the other players? Or is that just something that most people will do anyway.
|
Korea (South)922 Posts
you'll get kicked out in reno for counting...or at least harrahs in reno
|
can you sit down at any table and start counting or should you wait for new decks to start the count
|
On June 03 2009 14:57 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2009 12:35 thunk wrote:
It was an enjoyable write up to read.
Do you know what the counting rules in Vegas are? Probably a lot stricter, yeah?
Being an east coast guy, I have never been to Vegas, but I believe they are allowed to kick people out for "trespassing" as they wish.
I believe in Vegas they have card counting programs in the back that do perfect card counting for all tables, so by knowing what a perfect card counter would do in every situation vs. what you do, they can reasonably determine if you're counting or not over a period of time. And if they think you are, you will get the boot! The MIT blackjack team is blacklisted from Vegas casinos, haha
Very nice guide, thanks for the writeup!
|
On June 04 2009 01:16 sixghost wrote:
When you are counting, is it considered suspicious if you are watching all the cards dealt to the other players? Or is that just something that most people will do anyway.
Most players eye the cards as they come out so it is not something to worry about.
|
On June 04 2009 04:18 Saracen wrote:
can you sit down at any table and start counting or should you wait for new decks to start the count
You can start counting whenever, but I usually wait for a new shoe to start. If you start counting at a shoe thats partially dealt, remember to factor in how many decks are discarded before you started playing. For example, if you believe there is about 1 deck that was played before you sat down, you have to add that deck for purposes of the true count because you did not see which cards were dealt. So if you entered the game after 1 deck was dealt, and then played until there were a total of 3 decks remaining in the shoe with a running count of +8, the true count would be +2, not +8/3 because of that original deck that you did not see.
|
Alright guide.
First off you missed the fact that you must sit in the first or last seat. otherwise you'll be looking side to side and the dealer will know.
Secondly, although its not ILLEGAL the casino is a private business, they hold the right to decide who comes in and bets. they CAN kick you out if they find out your counting cards, less the mentioned Altantic City.
Lastly, you need an even bet else they'll know your counting.
|
On June 04 2009 08:32 Mykill wrote:
Alright guide.
First off you missed the fact that you must sit in the first or last seat. otherwise you'll be looking side to side and the dealer will know.
Secondly, although its not ILLEGAL the casino is a private business, they hold the right to decide who comes in and bets. they CAN kick you out if they find out your counting cards, less the mentioned Altantic City.
Lastly, you need an even bet else they'll know your counting.
The first and last statements are false.
|
On June 04 2009 08:32 Mykill wrote:
Alright guide.
First off you missed the fact that you must sit in the first or last seat. otherwise you'll be looking side to side and the dealer will know.
Secondly, although its not ILLEGAL the casino is a private business, they hold the right to decide who comes in and bets. they CAN kick you out if they find out your counting cards, less the mentioned Altantic City.
Lastly, you need an even bet else they'll know your counting.
The vast majority of people look at every hand that is dealt so your first point is false.
Betting an "even bet" does nothing to prevent them from figuring out that you are counting.
|
I've talked to dealer before. thats how i learned to count cards.
the first thing they look for is people glancing around at all the other peoples cards each time its dealt, vast majority do not glance around. its a sign that dealers look for.
if you bet the minimum when the count is low and then raise it high they will figure it out very quickly. thats why you need an "even bet" to not be extremely obvious.
otherwise it was a good guide.
good luck on getting that SCII key
|
On June 04 2009 10:01 Mykill wrote:
if you bet the minimum when the count is low and then raise it high they will figure it out very quickly. thats why you need an "even bet" to not be extremely obvious.
Betting the minimum with a low count and a much higher amount at a higher count is the backbone of how you make money while counting. You can have the spread be less, but you will make much less money.
|
On June 04 2009 06:40 Tbird wrote:I believe in Vegas they have card counting programs in the back that do perfect card counting for all tables, so by knowing what a perfect card counter would do in every situation vs. what you do, they can reasonably determine if you're counting or not over a period of time. And if they think you are, you will get the boot! The MIT blackjack team is blacklisted from Vegas casinos, haha Very nice guide, thanks for the writeup!
I would think they would have the same software in AC, but I'm not certain.
What I do know is as follows. When they believe I am counting, they will limit me to one hand and also cut about 3 decks out of the shoe instead of the usual 4.5. The first time they did this to me it was after I had one a few $50 and $75 bets spread over 3 different betting circles. The pit boss immediately came over and told the dealer to reshuffle the shoe and that I wasn't allowed to play more than one hand. This caused one of the other players to freak out, "Can I play more than one hand?!?! Why can't he?!" It was pretty funny. After they ruined most of my advantage, I stayed around for a few more shoes and then left.
Since then, it has been pretty random whether or not they have targeted me as a counter. Last week I went and before I could even raise my bet above $20 they started cutting 3 decks out of the shoe. I still managed to win $700+ that day due to dumb luck. However, the very next day they were cutting the usual 75% of the decks out and did not seem to mind whenever I bet big or in more than one circle. As I said earlier, I'm not sure exactly how they deal with it but it does not seem very consistent.
|
Is BS same regardless where and what casino you play at it?
Also what does double mean?
|
On June 06 2009 18:10 kdog3683 wrote:
Is BS same regardless where and what casino you play at it?
Also what does double mean?
Basic strategy is more or less the same. That chart is specifically for 6 deck with double after split allowed.
A double down is when you double your initial bet after the first two cards to receive only one more card.
|
Sweden33719 Posts
Moving to general by request.
|
Thanks FA! Hopefully a few more people will see this now.
|
16987 Posts
You should have an actuary Q&A blog <_<
|
awesome guide, hitting the casino with 2 friends I didn't see in years a bit later tonight should be fun
already knew how to count just didn't know the basic strats hehe
|
On June 09 2009 00:44 Empyrean wrote:
You should have an actuary Q&A blog <_<
I really should. I can't believe people have actually been PMing me about being an actuary.
|
On June 09 2009 00:46 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:awesome guide, hitting the casino with 2 friends I didn't see in years a bit later tonight should be fun already knew how to count just didn't know the basic strats hehe
Good luck. I'm gonna head to the casino in a bit as well.
Trying to count without knowing basic strategy is like trying a Reaver drop while only mining with 4 probes the entire game. Gotta start with the basics.
|
On June 03 2009 16:04 exalted wrote:
as a high level poker player, i must grudgingly admit that the previous posts are true about the average player becoming increasingly tough
in other words, if you haven't picked up poker yet and are looking to, it's probably not a good idea due to the current high skill level
that said, if you really want to be good, you will probably end up ignoring my advice and then proving me wrong, DUCY?
correction: NLHE is dead for new players, not poker.
PLO is where the money is for the new generation, especially if you've got some gamble in you.
|
On June 09 2009 01:50 Puosu wrote:
correction: NLHE is dead for new players, not poker.
PLO is where the money is for the new generation, especially if you've got some gamble in you.
PLO = Pot Limit Omaha? The game with 4 hole cards? What do you mean "if you've got some gamble in you?" How is it riskier than Texas hold em? More randomness since you have 4 cards?
|
Really cool guide.
I hit the casinos in Vegas last year during a week-end trip, but as I knew I would play for a few hours only, I didn't bother to learn strategy, as it only pays off in the long term. So I played with my guts (and lost  ).
However, if I am to play BJ again, I will most certainly put your guide into practice.
Good lick for the SC2 key !
|
On June 10 2009 00:20 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2009 01:50 Puosu wrote:
correction: NLHE is dead for new players, not poker.
PLO is where the money is for the new generation, especially if you've got some gamble in you. PLO = Pot Limit Omaha? The game with 4 hole cards? What do you mean "if you've got some gamble in you?" How is it riskier than Texas hold em? More randomness since you have 4 cards?
There is a lot more variance due to the fact that people often have at least 10 outs against you regardless of their hand (say you flop a straight and someone has a flush draw and two pair, or a set, etc.). Hold em players always joke that you can just go all in preflop and no matter what hand you have you're a 45/55 dog.
|
|
|
Skimmed guide. This certainly reminds me of the movie 21. Not sure why, but I liked that movie.
Thanks for the guide.
|
On June 10 2009 10:32 MyStiC_Chaos wrote:
Skimmed guide. This certainly reminds me of the movie 21. Not sure why, but I liked that movie.
Thanks for the guide.
The movie "21" shows the actual method accurately, but you do not immediately win millions upon millions of dollars. In addition, you probably won't have sex with another counter and I would not recommend giving your chips to strippers for them to cash out.
Thanks for the compliments though.
|
no counting plz
gm plz -_-;;
|
16987 Posts
So when are you gonna start that actuary Q&A 
|
On June 11 2009 00:24 Empyrean wrote:So when are you gonna start that actuary Q&A
I haven't received any questions about it in the past few days. If anyone else asks me anything I'll put one up.
|
Really awesome guide, and I just read through it, and the entire thread and already feel a lot more knowledgeable on Blackjack in general. I'm going to learn how to do this as fast as possible!
Funny thing is, I got kicked out of a casino once out of dumb luck. I hit a couple small pots early and then just randomly decided to bet big, and won. The pit master came over and kindly asked me to leave the premises. Of course I was a bit shocked and asked why..he walked me over to the door and said "A casino is a business, not the salvation army" and that was it. I was a bit upset (for obvious reasons) but I kind of laugh at it these days ;P
|
On June 15 2009 23:13 Kenny wrote:
Really awesome guide, and I just read through it, and the entire thread and already feel a lot more knowledgeable on Blackjack in general. I'm going to learn how to do this as fast as possible!
Funny thing is, I got kicked out of a casino once out of dumb luck. I hit a couple small pots early and then just randomly decided to bet big, and won. The pit master came over and kindly asked me to leave the premises. Of course I was a bit shocked and asked why..he walked me over to the door and said "A casino is a business, not the salvation army" and that was it. I was a bit upset (for obvious reasons) but I kind of laugh at it these days ;P
Thanks for the props. I've heard the "this is a business" line way too many times. You start to dislike the casinos even more when you realize they try to intimidate anyone who wins even a little bit of money.
|
MURICA15980 Posts
When they kick you out, you get your money back, right?
|
On June 16 2009 01:54 Klogon wrote:
When they kick you out, you get your money back, right?
Since I only play in AC, they aren't even allowed to kick me out. But I believe if you are kicked out you get to keep your money.
|
I have a few questions.
first, when do you usually decide its time to walk? as in, how far behind or how far ahead will you come out of the table (at max)? from what I can tell by looking at your chart, you seem to bail when you lose about 1k and you stay till you gain 1k. that is just my guess but it seems good.
second, do you leave a table when the count is very negative? (say it is -15 or more) or do you stay and wait for the boot to finish and be replaced?
|
On June 18 2009 07:52 themajor wrote:
I have a few questions.
first, when do you usually decide its time to walk? as in, how far behind or how far ahead will you come out of the table (at max)? from what I can tell by looking at your chart, you seem to bail when you lose about 1k and you stay till you gain 1k. that is just my guess but it seems good.
second, do you leave a table when the count is very negative? (say it is -15 or more) or do you stay and wait for the boot to finish and be replaced?
I decide to walk away when:
A. I'm tired and making mistakes
B. I don't want to play anymore
How much money you have won or lost should have no effect on when you decide to walk away. There is no such thing as hot or cold streaks.. If you are down $2000 after 3 hours you are still expected to win the same amount as always from that point forward.
I don't leave the table because it is usually a pain in the ass to get a seat at a decent table. Sometimes I will leave to go to the bathroom if the count is very negative though.
|
Even though I didn't win I'm bumping this so people can bring down AC!
|
On June 18 2009 07:52 themajor wrote:
I have a few questions.
first, when do you usually decide its time to walk? as in, how far behind or how far ahead will you come out of the table (at max)? from what I can tell by looking at your chart, you seem to bail when you lose about 1k and you stay till you gain 1k. that is just my guess but it seems good.
second, do you leave a table when the count is very negative? (say it is -15 or more) or do you stay and wait for the boot to finish and be replaced?
this guy probably has noooo idea what starcraft is
|
Just got a key through opt in! Not letting this guide go to waste though!
|
On April 08 2010 21:50 Kishime wrote:
Just got a key through opt in! Not letting this guide go to waste though!
I'm glad you bumped. It's a good read.
|
Definitely gonna try this out sometime soon! Thanks for sharing your knowledge, it's highly appreciated : )
|
On April 09 2010 05:52 number1gog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 21:50 Kishime wrote:
Just got a key through opt in! Not letting this guide go to waste though! I'm glad you bumped. It's a good read.
Dude, awesome bump, and awesome that you got a key. Nice guide! enjoyed reading a lot
|
Thanks for the bump/post, interesting read :D
So did anyone try this from the guide since it was posted?
and if so what were the results?
|
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe
|
I have trouble understanding the Illusion 18 chart. It doesn't give any actions (stay, hit, double, split etc), so what exactly is the opposite of normal? Also, will it be more accurate if the counting is more discrete? Instead of having -1, 0, +1, what if we extend it into -1, -0.5, 0, +0.5, +1? Would it be better?
|
On June 03 2009 07:20 Kishime wrote:
If you’ve seen the movie 21, erase it from your memory.
I knew 21 was bullshit
|
great guide! idk how i missed this before
|
On April 09 2010 08:39 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe
There isn't a cut card that indicates when they will shuffle the deck?
|
On April 09 2010 09:08 nosliw wrote:
I have trouble understanding the Illusion 18 chart. It doesn't give any actions (stay, hit, double, split etc), so what exactly is the opposite of normal? Also, will it be more accurate if the counting is more discrete? Instead of having -1, 0, +1, what if we extend it into -1, -0.5, 0, +0.5, +1? Would it be better?
Kind of have to use common sense for the Illustrious 18 chart. I don't feel like addressing every one but if you have a question on a specific on I'll answer it.
Keeping track of count to the nearest half instead of one is more accurate, but might not be worth the extra brainpower if it causes you to mess up other aspects of counting. The return you'd get from it is very very small.
|
On April 09 2010 06:57 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 05:52 number1gog wrote:On April 08 2010 21:50 Kishime wrote:
Just got a key through opt in! Not letting this guide go to waste though! I'm glad you bumped. It's a good read. Dude, awesome bump, and awesome that you got a key. Nice guide! enjoyed reading a lot
Yeah I'm making great use of it with my 3-3 record in the bronze league. 
Once I actually figure out what the hell is going on in this game I'll hopefully be in gold/plat.
|
cool you should put this in liquidpoker
|
On April 09 2010 21:38 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 08:39 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe There isn't a cut card that indicates when they will shuffle the deck?
they take the cards out of the machine to deal so no one ever sees the cards. there is an open slot inside it and they take the card out right before it is dealt. and there is a slot in the top where the discarded cards are put back in
EDIT: heres a pic of what it sort of looks like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VtBqfaAxfGA/R6jVLUPxCRI/AAAAAAAAADg/sdPo5-na4Ac/s400/shuffle.jpg
|
On April 10 2010 09:06 Stratos.FEAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 21:38 Kishime wrote:On April 09 2010 08:39 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe There isn't a cut card that indicates when they will shuffle the deck? they take the cards out of the machine to deal so no one ever sees the cards. there is an open slot inside it and they take the card out right before it is dealt. and there is a slot in the top where the discarded cards are put back in EDIT: heres a pic of what it sort of looks like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VtBqfaAxfGA/R6jVLUPxCRI/AAAAAAAAADg/sdPo5-na4Ac/s400/shuffle.jpg
Yeah that would make it a lot harder to count if you can't tell how many decks are left.
|
On April 11 2010 06:24 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 09:06 Stratos.FEAR wrote:On April 09 2010 21:38 Kishime wrote:On April 09 2010 08:39 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe There isn't a cut card that indicates when they will shuffle the deck? they take the cards out of the machine to deal so no one ever sees the cards. there is an open slot inside it and they take the card out right before it is dealt. and there is a slot in the top where the discarded cards are put back in EDIT: heres a pic of what it sort of looks like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VtBqfaAxfGA/R6jVLUPxCRI/AAAAAAAAADg/sdPo5-na4Ac/s400/shuffle.jpg Yeah that would make it a lot harder to count if you can't tell how many decks are left.
is there any way to keep a count with something like this?
|
On April 11 2010 15:29 Stratos.FEAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 06:24 Kishime wrote:On April 10 2010 09:06 Stratos.FEAR wrote:On April 09 2010 21:38 Kishime wrote:On April 09 2010 08:39 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe There isn't a cut card that indicates when they will shuffle the deck? they take the cards out of the machine to deal so no one ever sees the cards. there is an open slot inside it and they take the card out right before it is dealt. and there is a slot in the top where the discarded cards are put back in EDIT: heres a pic of what it sort of looks like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VtBqfaAxfGA/R6jVLUPxCRI/AAAAAAAAADg/sdPo5-na4Ac/s400/shuffle.jpg Yeah that would make it a lot harder to count if you can't tell how many decks are left. is there any way to keep a count with something like this?
If you don't know how many decks are remaining it is impossible to count.
|
Which casinos have you played blackjack at besides AC?
|
On April 14 2010 00:27 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 15:29 Stratos.FEAR wrote:On April 11 2010 06:24 Kishime wrote:On April 10 2010 09:06 Stratos.FEAR wrote:On April 09 2010 21:38 Kishime wrote:On April 09 2010 08:39 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe There isn't a cut card that indicates when they will shuffle the deck? they take the cards out of the machine to deal so no one ever sees the cards. there is an open slot inside it and they take the card out right before it is dealt. and there is a slot in the top where the discarded cards are put back in EDIT: heres a pic of what it sort of looks like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VtBqfaAxfGA/R6jVLUPxCRI/AAAAAAAAADg/sdPo5-na4Ac/s400/shuffle.jpg Yeah that would make it a lot harder to count if you can't tell how many decks are left. is there any way to keep a count with something like this? If you don't know how many decks are remaining it is impossible to count.
I played with some of those machines in Las Vegas, and I'm moderately certain that counting is pretty much impossible on those machines. Besides the fact that you don't know how many decks are in there, they refill it with the used cards often enough that you have very little info to work with. Essentially, they're re-shuffling after only a couple decks worth of cards have been dealt.
After reading this guide, I tried to do a little bit of card counting when I was up in Reno. It's pretty fun to do, since it requires a little more effort than regular blackjack. However, they only had single deck, so the strategy that I memorized was not quite optimal, and they only have 6:5 blackjack payout, so the house probably still had an edge on me.
|
On April 14 2010 03:40 lac29 wrote:
Which casinos have you played blackjack at besides AC?
I've only been to AC.
|
On April 14 2010 04:08 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 00:27 Kishime wrote:On April 11 2010 15:29 Stratos.FEAR wrote:On April 11 2010 06:24 Kishime wrote:On April 10 2010 09:06 Stratos.FEAR wrote:On April 09 2010 21:38 Kishime wrote:On April 09 2010 08:39 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
ok so the casino i go to has this machine which shuffles the cards. basically how i think it is is this: they have a shoe of about 6 decks in there( i will assume) and then when a certain amount of cards have been dealt they take that and put it back in the machine which makes a small noise(most likely shuffling the cards). so my question is: does this affect the count in any way? it doesnt seem possible to know how deep the cut is and to know when they will changed the next shoe There isn't a cut card that indicates when they will shuffle the deck? they take the cards out of the machine to deal so no one ever sees the cards. there is an open slot inside it and they take the card out right before it is dealt. and there is a slot in the top where the discarded cards are put back in EDIT: heres a pic of what it sort of looks like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VtBqfaAxfGA/R6jVLUPxCRI/AAAAAAAAADg/sdPo5-na4Ac/s400/shuffle.jpg Yeah that would make it a lot harder to count if you can't tell how many decks are left. is there any way to keep a count with something like this? If you don't know how many decks are remaining it is impossible to count. I played with some of those machines in Las Vegas, and I'm moderately certain that counting is pretty much impossible on those machines. Besides the fact that you don't know how many decks are in there, they refill it with the used cards often enough that you have very little info to work with. Essentially, they're re-shuffling after only a couple decks worth of cards have been dealt. After reading this guide, I tried to do a little bit of card counting when I was up in Reno. It's pretty fun to do, since it requires a little more effort than regular blackjack. However, they only had single deck, so the strategy that I memorized was not quite optimal, and they only have 6:5 blackjack payout, so the house probably still had an edge on me.
Yeah, 6:5 payout is complete balls.
|
I am thinking about card counting myself.
damn you had a couple of decks that go 80% penetration...wtf lol. im guessing the rules are a bit stricter though huh. btw on your log you have some red highlighted, does that mean you lost that much cause you lost about 4.3k lol that sucks(then again you gained 1.7k).
do you know any good casino, including borgata, that still do hand shuffling and not using csm (for those that dont know csm is a shuffling machine that randomly shuffles the deck on the whim thus eliminating the ability to card count).
also some questions for a nooby:
1. how long have you been card counting?
2. would you recommend any other system that is a more accurate then hi-lo (i find it easy and want to try to see if i can handle other system) maybe omega or the zen??
3. I noticed that your log states you played on average about 4 hours per day? would play longer means more or should i implement some sort of goal and get out.
4. what tips can you give me to not get noticed by the pit. it is difficult, i find still, to try to make eye contact and have a conversation while still trying to track the cards down.
5. how long should i scout a table and how do i know when to join a table?
6. can my bankroll be lower then 10k (that is fucking alot) to play a 10$minimum table?
7. oh and technically cant someone that knows and hates you fuck you over by telling the casino you are a counter lol.
thanks a lot
|
Super old post but I saw a question in here I never answered. (Name change from Kishime -> Deadlift.)
On July 12 2010 02:09 heroyi wrote:
btw on your log you have some red highlighted, does that mean you lost that much cause you lost about 4.3k lol that sucks(then again you gained 1.7k).
Yep. Very rough stretch.
On July 12 2010 02:09 heroyi wrote:do you know any good casino, including borgata, that still do hand shuffling and not using csm (for those that dont know csm is a shuffling machine that randomly shuffles the deck on the whim thus eliminating the ability to card count).
Most casinos still do hand shuffling but it doesn't really matter though.
On July 12 2010 02:09 heroyi wrote:
1. how long have you been card counting?
2. would you recommend any other system that is a more accurate then hi-lo (i find it easy and want to try to see if i can handle other system) maybe omega or the zen??
3. I noticed that your log states you played on average about 4 hours per day? would play longer means more or should i implement some sort of goal and get out.
4. what tips can you give me to not get noticed by the pit. it is difficult, i find still, to try to make eye contact and have a conversation while still trying to track the cards down.
5. how long should i scout a table and how do i know when to join a table?
6. can my bankroll be lower then 10k (that is fucking alot) to play a 10$minimum table?
7. oh and technically cant someone that knows and hates you fuck you over by telling the casino you are a counter lol.
thanks a lot
1. Since the start of the log.
2. I've only done hi-lo.
3. You can play for however long you want. I just played until I didn't want to anymore.
4. Fake mustaches.
5. I just look for a halfway decent cut and then sit down. Sometimes it's hard enough to just find a table that actually has an open seat.
6. Yes, but the variance might wipe you out. If you're okay with the risk of losing everything, go for it.
7. Be friendly and nobody will hate you. : )
|
Gonna post so i can bookmark this. Thanks for the post; will look at it later. Definitely looks interesting
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7742/basicstrategy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1756/beti.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8893/i18z.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3040/logy.jpg)
