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lol, how do you even define a game as being played at a high level anyways?
SSBM requires extremely high dexterity and has a diverse and complex combo system with the added benefit of the edge. SF also has a very complex game system. The community for Smash is pretty big, the SF one is pretty big. Any reasonably complex game with a big community could be said to be played at a very high level, due to the quantity of innovations and deviations on the metagame that will occur.
CS 1.6, quake, CS:source (don't shoot me), War3, SC - all played at an insanely high level, with tricks in each that are incomprehensible to those who don't understand the game engine thoroughly.
That said I think it would be difficult to argue that SC doesnt have the most complex and evolved meta game though.
Anyways, kind of an off topic conversation, and Brawl+ will no doubt have a big impact on the Smash scene 
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On May 08 2009 20:31 Meta wrote:
This is sooo awesome... This is really everything I ever could have wanted from brawl. I'm going out tomorrow and finding out how to mod my friend's wii to get this. It would have been tragic for such an amazing game as SSB to die with shitty vanilla brawl.
For those that don't understand how groundbreaking this is, basically imagine SC2 was released features such as units randomly dying, your actions take 10 frames to respond (extra extra high latency as a standard feature), and every great micro and macro combo completely impossible to pull off due to that latency mechanic. Then imagine someone figures out how to win 100% of the time with zerg, due to some other mechanic. Then imagine Blizzard saying they were done with the starcraft universe and never patched the game for future balance reasons or anything else. That's basically the point SSBM fans are at right now, in this stage of brawl.
If independents within the community modified this imaginary SC2 to take out all the bad and keep in all the good, wouldn't you be excited for it?
Of course, I haven't played this new version of SSBB yet, so I should withhold my opinions, but from how the videos look it seems like exactly what I was looking for, but didn't get, when brawl came out.
bullshit. way to exaggerate brawl problems.
nobody wins 100% with metaknight, what? yeah, he's the most popular, and yeah i think like 6 of the top 10 finishers of a nearby weekly were MKs, but he's not unbeatable (think o. sagat). just way more developed than other characters due to being retardedly overplayed (personally i hate his sword sounds, i can't play him. ^_^ gaw/diddy ftw)
brawl+ hinges on the assumption that brawl is bad. a lot of people (myself included) don't think it's that bad of a game at all (except random tripping. fuck that shit)
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On May 09 2009 07:52 Piy wrote:lol, how do you even define a game as being played at a high level anyways? SSBM requires extremely high dexterity and has a diverse and complex combo system with the added benefit of the edge. SF also has a very complex game system. The community for Smash is pretty big, the SF one is pretty big. Any reasonably complex game with a big community could be said to be played at a very high level, due to the quantity of innovations and deviations on the metagame that will occur. CS 1.6, quake, CS:source (don't shoot me), War3, SC - all played at an insanely high level, with tricks in each that are incomprehensible to those who don't understand the game engine thoroughly. That said I think it would be difficult to argue that SC doesnt have the most complex and evolved meta game though. Anyways, kind of an off topic conversation, and Brawl+ will no doubt have a big impact on the Smash scene
I apologize I meant SSBB. SSBM definitely requires skill, I respect it for that, its just not my game brah.
But SSBB, no.
(And I'll pretend you didn't say anything about source taking skill)
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Even though it seems more drastic, modding a wii is pretty much the same in concept as modding a pc game, so I think its appeal will improve once people get past the "game centered around a hack point of view.
Game looks promising in the videos but my eyes have become so accustomed to melee that the speed seemed lacking. Also, does this mean the Brawl+ community can release "unofficial updates/patches" to balance the game? That would be very cool.
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On May 09 2009 07:56 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 20:31 Meta wrote:
This is sooo awesome... This is really everything I ever could have wanted from brawl. I'm going out tomorrow and finding out how to mod my friend's wii to get this. It would have been tragic for such an amazing game as SSB to die with shitty vanilla brawl.
For those that don't understand how groundbreaking this is, basically imagine SC2 was released features such as units randomly dying, your actions take 10 frames to respond (extra extra high latency as a standard feature), and every great micro and macro combo completely impossible to pull off due to that latency mechanic. Then imagine someone figures out how to win 100% of the time with zerg, due to some other mechanic. Then imagine Blizzard saying they were done with the starcraft universe and never patched the game for future balance reasons or anything else. That's basically the point SSBM fans are at right now, in this stage of brawl.
If independents within the community modified this imaginary SC2 to take out all the bad and keep in all the good, wouldn't you be excited for it?
Of course, I haven't played this new version of SSBB yet, so I should withhold my opinions, but from how the videos look it seems like exactly what I was looking for, but didn't get, when brawl came out. bullshit. way to exaggerate brawl problems. nobody wins 100% with metaknight, what? yeah, he's the most popular, and yeah i think like 6 of the top 10 finishers of a nearby weekly were MKs, but he's not unbeatable (think o. sagat). just way more developed than other characters due to being retardedly overplayed (personally i hate his sword sounds, i can't play him. ^_^ gaw/diddy ftw) brawl+ hinges on the assumption that brawl is bad. a lot of people (myself included) don't think it's that bad of a game at all (except random tripping. fuck that shit)
That's fine that you're an SSBB fan, I'm not at all, but I am a huuuugge SSBM fan, and I think that's the population that this mod is targetting.
And furthermore coming from playing SSBM for the past six years I do think brawl is bad. It's just not as fast-paced or fun in my opinion. This mod seems like it will make it fast paced and fun, to me.
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On May 09 2009 08:41 Meta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 07:56 JeeJee wrote:On May 08 2009 20:31 Meta wrote:
This is sooo awesome... This is really everything I ever could have wanted from brawl. I'm going out tomorrow and finding out how to mod my friend's wii to get this. It would have been tragic for such an amazing game as SSB to die with shitty vanilla brawl.
For those that don't understand how groundbreaking this is, basically imagine SC2 was released features such as units randomly dying, your actions take 10 frames to respond (extra extra high latency as a standard feature), and every great micro and macro combo completely impossible to pull off due to that latency mechanic. Then imagine someone figures out how to win 100% of the time with zerg, due to some other mechanic. Then imagine Blizzard saying they were done with the starcraft universe and never patched the game for future balance reasons or anything else. That's basically the point SSBM fans are at right now, in this stage of brawl.
If independents within the community modified this imaginary SC2 to take out all the bad and keep in all the good, wouldn't you be excited for it?
Of course, I haven't played this new version of SSBB yet, so I should withhold my opinions, but from how the videos look it seems like exactly what I was looking for, but didn't get, when brawl came out. bullshit. way to exaggerate brawl problems. nobody wins 100% with metaknight, what? yeah, he's the most popular, and yeah i think like 6 of the top 10 finishers of a nearby weekly were MKs, but he's not unbeatable (think o. sagat). just way more developed than other characters due to being retardedly overplayed (personally i hate his sword sounds, i can't play him. ^_^ gaw/diddy ftw) brawl+ hinges on the assumption that brawl is bad. a lot of people (myself included) don't think it's that bad of a game at all (except random tripping. fuck that shit) That's fine that you're an SSBB fan, I'm not at all, but I am a huuuugge SSBM fan, and I think that's the population that this mod is targetting. And furthermore coming from playing SSBM for the past six years I do think brawl is bad. It's just not as fast-paced or fun in my opinion. This mod seems like it will make it fast paced and fun, to me.
This is the only page of the thread I've read (and am going to read, because they always turn into brawl vs melee shitfests), but I just want to say that I agree 100% with this guy. And now to address random points I saw while skimming: Brawl+ doesn't hinge on the assumption that Brawl is bad. Brawl+ hinges on the OPINION that Brawl is bad, made by Melee players who believe Melee is a superior game.
Also, MK is not really good because he is overplayed, he is just that imba. If he was just overplayed then people wouldn't discuss banning him
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I for one enjoy playing Brawl more than Brawl+. I found that the balancing approach they took is very interesting, in that how every character is so 'good'. It felt that everything keeps getting beefed up. I admire their dedication but truthfully I hate their mechanics. I guess it's a personal choice.
I have been on the tournament scene for a long time playing SSBM and I like playing Brawl more. I use Mario/Wolf and get by pretty fine (recently I've been placing in the money in teams ), I feel that the MK issue really isn't that bad.
I'm pretty much with JeeJee on this one.
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On May 08 2009 15:57 HonestTea wrote:
Ahahahah when will smash fans realize that SSB was never designed to be a competitive game.
I mean it's nice that a competitive scene came up... and it's interesting that you deemed it fit to modify the game to suit your standards... but come on.
first cs was a user mod from hl engine...
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Hoping for a WomboCombo+ from this mod.
I'll try it, but I will still be SSBM fan at heart.
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i'm glad i stopped playing smash in favor of other games. you don't realize the things wrong with it when you hold it close to your heart and ignore the flaws present in all 3 of them.
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I've tried it, and I found it was pretty good.
I didn't have much gripes against Brawl that much really, I played SSBB and SSBM both, but Brawl+ just seemed right to me.
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On May 08 2009 15:57 HonestTea wrote:
Ahahahah when will smash fans realize that SSB was never designed to be a competitive game.
I mean it's nice that a competitive scene came up... and it's interesting that you deemed it fit to modify the game to suit your standards... but come on.
it's never whether or not they design something to be competitive, it's whether or not they design something with depth
melee has an amazing amount of depth by design. brawl doesn't, by conscious design.
most people don't remember but melee had the same developer blog as brawl, by sakurai. in the melee one he went into multiple posts about l-cancelling, direct influence, smash di, teching, and probably other stuff i can't remember.
in the brawl one, he said he wanted to design a smash game for everyone.
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Can you source that? I've never heard of such a thing.
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haha man i haven't played brawl in so long i guess i can't notice the changes in that video
it just looks like longer hitstun
as for games being higher level than melee... of course. however, it's still one of the more technically demanding fighters, both in natural talent and training. and although the move list is anemic, most people don't realize that it's really a platformer/fighter hybrid - there is a wealth of depth in the relationship between your position relative to the environment and your opponent.
the metagame never really developed like a lot of other fighters, but there are a lot of reasons for that. smash's situations are esoteric and fluid, encouraging freestyle and quick-thinking, whereas in a lot of fighters there are exact and appropriate responses to different situations. the player base, while huge, is also very very young and disorganized. i'm not really sure many other games are much deeper, again by design, but obviously many games have been taken to a higher level by the community.
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On May 08 2009 15:07 dnastyx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 15:04 naventus wrote:
Does it solve the multiplayer problem? There's basically no way to play brawl at all online. That's a problem inherent in the way Nintendo servers relay information. "HEY, GUYS, I HAVE A GREAT IDEA. EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE BEST CONNECTION POSSIBLE, WE SHOULD IMPLEMENT 10 MS OF LAG FOR NO REASON." "Sounds great."
sounds like bnet
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I might as well post here to say that Ally beat M2K at Apex.
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Yay!!! They added what nintendo took out from melee. Now I might like brawl over 64 now.
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On May 08 2009 14:50 Plexa wrote:
I can see it now...
Starcraft II +!!
If SCII sucks, someone probably will try to fix it. Here's to hoping it doesn't suck.
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On May 11 2009 13:25 thunk wrote:If SCII sucks, someone probably will try to fix it. Here's to hoping it doesn't suck.
It doesn't suck!!
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EPT
