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On September 04 2008 01:57 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2008 01:39 Ack1027 wrote:
Those were some pretty sweet reps Zulu thanks for sharing.
I like watching china games more than any other asian since I can't really access them. SG/Malay dota makes me wanna stab my eyes out and Korean shit I can navigate by myself.
Btw, people need to use Warcraft Version Switcher if they wanna watch reps its really easy to use.
Then again, china needs to update their shit as well.
Edit: Btw could everyone upload to d-a replay upload or gg's? Might be just a personal thing but I usually like looking at the overview of the game kinda like the end game ss etc... item/skill build is usually what I like to glance quickly at. I'll upload good reps from CDL the chinese dota league, and G-league, another league, from now on. All of the reps will be in 1.22, cdl uses 6.52e, g-league uses 6.53.
Thanks
On September 04 2008 02:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I learned today that, when your carries have gotten items and you're at a big advantage vs a team that has mostly aoe heroes, you should go out and look for fights because you will most likely win and thus find an opportunity to push and end the game.
Also I wached MYM vs Avid today and saw omni can be used to semi jungle, thus my omni/tp pick today, we were sick in battles, th ult, omni ult, treant ult, lich ult, brood raping people.
Yes, so fun watching stuff click for other people.
On September 04 2008 02:01 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Oh yea also vigoss and smile retired nooooooooooooo. WG combined with ex VP, now it's goblak, dendi, puppey, jolie, axypa. Thank god DKPhobos is gone he sucked balls. But I will miss watching vigoss and smile in replays.
Manly team.
FocusIRE still a man~
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I would like to use more heroes who have received buffs in 6.51 mainly visage and axe, but I'm not sure how I should use them. I'm guessing visage is early mid game healer, late game dps, and some free wards, kinda like necrolyte but better I guess? Axe is an initiator tank right? And he can jungle pretty well thus freeing up a lane.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Yea I have never really played Visage either. Always been a meh hero to me. None the less, he is good in the right hands. I would say that Visage is a good pusher with all his bats, especially vs alot of INT heroes, as his bats are invunerable to any magic spells, making it a real pain to get rid of them. But thats just my view from not really playing him.
Axe, aye everyone seems to jungle axe these days. Good reason, he can jungle fast, aiming for vanguard and Dagger. Then he goes and initiates in fights. But I personally think axe is better in a lane, making use of battle hunger. Vs agi and int heroes, it can be a real pain, and if you play him really aggressive, it makes the other team get shit scared of you, because his axe spinny dmg, does ALOT for early game. Depends on who you vs I guess. I would still pick Cent over Axe any day though.
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I just played scrim where we were
Scourge: TP, Qop, Lich/Spe, TH jungle
They were:
Sentinel: Pom, Nec/TB, Lina/Zeus
We were down by less than 5 kills all through early mid game, then when TB got his S&Y they started pushing, expected. We stopped their first few pushes completely, most of the time 4-5 killed their team and only losing one. But they pushed very consistently and right after TP and TH released their ults. We ended up getting raxed on two lanes by 40min although we were actually up by a lot in kills and had better items. Then their pom got the final upper rax and we ended up losing although with a better lineup and better items. We defended badly twice, not everyone was there to defend but overall still very frustrating.
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On September 04 2008 20:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I just played scrim where we were
Scourge: TP, Qop, Lich/Spe, TH jungle
They were:
Sentinel: Pom, Nec/TB, Lina/Zeus
We were down by less than 5 kills all through early mid game, then when TB got his S&Y they started pushing, expected. We stopped their first few pushes completely, most of the time 4-5 killed their team and only losing one. But they pushed very consistently and right after TP and TH released their ults. We ended up getting raxed on two lanes by 40min although we were actually up by a lot in kills and had better items. Then their pom got the final upper rax and we ended up losing although with a better lineup and better items. We defended badly twice, not everyone was there to defend but overall still very frustrating.
You shouldnt ever lose a team battle with Lich/Tree/TH/QoP
:S
Hell Spectre isn't even a bad team battler because he is always going to be there.
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TP = Treant and TH = ?
If you wanna work visage, look at the recent http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=240084 MYM PDL SK vs TEG games as an example, not the best but recent.
He's exactly how you said bly, necro but with flying wards. A great healer/pusher. I'd say he's the new viper, an extremely solid pick.
Axe is axe, there's other people who can fill his role. Personally I'd take tide over Axe in most situations. Also bear in mind Levi's ult is now almost screen-wide.
The game you just described though sounds like you lost because of good timing on their part, whether it was on purpose or not only people in the game can tell, but against a rape team fight aoe team like Lich/Tree/Th/QoP/Spec [ very very good aoe ] the only way I see them winning is by making sure you guys don't have ult timings together/dying one by one etc.
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th = tidehunter
Yea we lost only because we weren't as good at teamwork, didn't congregate fast enough vs them while they were extremely organized with their fast paced pushes. When TB got his S&Y they pushed right away, and as soon as they got completely raped in the ensuing fight, they'd push again after everyone became alive and not waste a single second, during battles they'd always stay together while nec healed and tb only went for the tower. When we pull off all of our ults and rape lina zeus pom nec in the ass, our tower would already be down, there was basically no way we could stop tb's dps from killing our towers/buildings. Or rather we weren't good enough at initiating and engaging in battles thus TB always had enough time to do damage. I picked probably my favorite lineup but unfortunately didn't have the people to pull it off vs a much inferior lineup.
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Also I think what Chinese means by AOE is different from the normal definition, not sure though. Here it means heroes like lina, qop, zeus, ts, lich, with spells that can do massive damage in a very short time, they're also called "explosive" in Chinese.
Anyways in another scrim we were
Sent: DK/WL, NEC, Visage, Tide semi jungle.
vs
Scourge: Lich/Yurnero, Qop, Pom/Sand King
I mean I'm pretty sure my lineup like completely counters them. I got the DK for carry, Nec for heal, Visage for push/heal carry. Wl/Tide ult for battles. After we survive early game, their spell damage should have 0 effect on us while they can't stop our pushes. But in reality, lich/jugg raped the dk/wl lane for some reason, I have no idea how. Visage didn't get anything besides meka for 30 minutes. My nec ended up getting guinsoo but at 40min, by then Jugg had butterfly S&Y, bot, battle fury and we couldn't do anything to stop its damage. DK had a bkb by 50min, and we pretty much got raped, really frustrating.
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And finally in the only scrim I won today
we were
Sent: Lich/Spe, Brood, TP, Omni semi jungle.
They were: Potm/WL, Medusa (LOL), Lina/Snk
Brood raped middle, TP farmed pretty well, in team battles we were invulnerable, they got medusa but potm went diffusal also for some reason. Medusa was going for skadi but got bot first, he was pretty much useless except for the ult. We pushed when TP had refresher and won.
Right now I really like TP, Spe, Brood, Omni, TH, Lich, I try to get them every game as I feel like they counter the normal early/mid game ganking pushing style very well and is an awesome pushing lineup for mid to late game. Lots of times when the opposing team doesn't have a hero who can clear creeps at middle, Brood can take down the mid tower very fast. Most Chinese people are still stuck in 6.48 era and often pick Virtus Pro style formations with lots of AOE heroes and maybe two semi carries and rarely a late game carry. To encourage this I almost never ban zeus pom and sometimes even na. I feel with heroes like Spe, TP, Lich, TH, etc, as long as we don't get raxed by the 30min mark, we will have usually won, unless our opponents farm a lot better than us. Spe is especially deadly to a team of low health heroes late game and helps trememdously in team battles and any stage of the game. Anyways I'm ranting, I really want to start playing with a set team from now on as this getting people from the same chinese forum thing really isn't working for me.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On September 05 2008 01:43 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Also I think what Chinese means by AOE is different from the normal definition, not sure though. Here it means heroes like lina, qop, zeus, ts, lich, with spells that can do massive damage in a very short time, they're also called "explosive" in Chinese.
Huh, that's interesting. AOE = Area Of Effect, so any hero with spells that has a radius are counted as AOE heros, so Treant, though doesn't exactly do "explosive" damage still has an AOE ult, as does SP with this new weave.
And I think here your definition of aoe is called burst damage heros (ie. ursa)
Oh and zulu, are those abbreviations used often in the chinese community? Like I've never heard tree be referred to "TP". (we usually just call it tree or treant) There were a few that took me a while to figure out before too in quite a few of your previous posts.
Oh, I'm assuming SnK = Sand King?
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is awesome32282 Posts
What you mean is Nukers i think? heroes that can do good amounts of damage in short periods of time.
AoE -> Area of Effect if im not mistaken, spells that do Area damage, like Lichs bouncing ultimate and well, zeus, tree, tide, etc.
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oh ok, yea those abbreviations are really chinese, snk = leoric, tp = treant protector, th = tidehunter, etc
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AoE is anything that affects a defined area. The best way to determine if someone is AoE is to stack an infinite number of units (or 100) in a small space. If the spell does damage to every single unit, it's AoE.
Lich's ult is not AoE.
Luna's ult is not AoE.
Luna's glaives are not AoE.
Juggernaut's ult is not AoE.
Juggernaut's blade fury is AoE.
PotM's starfall is AoE.
QoP's scream is AoE.
Zeus' chain lightning is not AoE.
Zeus' ult is not true AoE because it only hits heroes, but can be considered so as the area of effect is the entire map.
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Then Chinese people call that "group control", usually referring to initiators like ES, Tide, TP, etc.
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Btw Ack, our game vs tb today is pretty much exactly like this ihcs game
http://dota.sgamer.com/html/Replay_Download_24555.html
When tb got his sange and yasha, it was super hard to stop his push and it didnt matter that we were superior late game, the mid game pushes killed us. TB and DK are at their most powerful around mid game when they get their S&Y, and DK is Lv16. You pretty much need to have a really powerful aoe stun formation in order to limit TB's output. Otherwise pretty much any lineup + a TB/DK pushing at midgame is impossible to stop.
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i take it in that game their tb was mid with nec babysitting correct? if so you should of really tried to gank mid as soon as tree hit 6 or when tidehunter could get a decent rune (invis/haste). Terrorblade has a real problem being ganked, and even when he jungles is extremely slow at leveling. If you can get him 2-3 kills he falls really far behind. Im mean like if they babysit him like that, do 3 or 4 man ganks on him to keep him down, tower dive as much as you can against him, you have the line up to do it (tide/lich/qop easily, i played against a team that had them the other day and they wouldnt stop tower diving us).
You have a reall nice team fighting battle, but you also have nice gankers. Qop can show up to any lane and ensure a hero death with all those heroes. From the sounds of the game it was just you guys were farming well, but let terrorblade get his S&Y too quickly, meaning some where you were ganking the other heroes too much and terroblade not enough =(.
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On September 05 2008 04:34 zulu_nation8 wrote:Btw Ack, our game vs tb today is pretty much exactly like this ihcs game http://dota.sgamer.com/html/Replay_Download_24555.htmlWhen tb got his sange and yasha, it was super hard to stop his push and it didnt matter that we were superior late game, the mid game pushes killed us. TB and DK are at their most powerful around mid game when they get their S&Y, and DK is Lv16. You pretty much need to have a really powerful aoe stun formation in order to limit TB's output. Otherwise pretty much any lineup + a TB/DK pushing at midgame is impossible to stop.
Interesting,
Although I think maybe you were a bit incorrect in saying your game loss vs TB was like this replay. TB solo'd mid and went lifesteal ^^
But yeah I definitely know what you're saying. I don't know if you keep up with most of the top euro/russian replays lately but if you do you should take a look at the bans.
TB/Brood/Omni and some of those other heroes you said in the other post that you like are almost always banned. [even Treant ] The difference is that SP isn't used that much cuz he sucks in the updated version, but I guess Chinese players will realize that soon enough once they change.
TB's ms got nerfed but that wasn't really why he needed to be nerfed. His agi [read attack speed] is fucking ridiculous. Even WAAAAAAAY back in this thread when I talked about TB and said if you just get SnY + Travels its gg, it still holds true. Except now, agi treads rape on him too. Or str if you are getting ganked/nuked.
Seriously, with just SNY TB can push any tower granted he comes it at the right timing. Like if his 4 teammates are team fighting/delaying/baiting your team he can just come in pop metamorph and fuck over your tower. DK is really the same way once he hits 16 or goes armlet route.
Anyway, in the past few pages I've gotten the feeling you're starting to answer your own questions [ idk are they questions or just to share? entertaining either way ] and you probably have developed a sense for the game better than me since you're scrimming and stuff. That's where you improve the fastest.
[ psst I just play mindless TDAs and carry heroes nowadays -____- ]
Tbh as long as people like alven, you, and judicator are here this is probably the closest thing to a ' strategy forum ' that you wanted, that you'll find.
Edit: Wanted to comment Alven and Paper just had some quality posts. Paper described the damage types pretty much exactly as I thought they were.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Yeah, this thread rocks. Loads of really helpful information. There is no real website bar this thread, that deals about these topics of conversation. I always check this out for info. Really helpful and valuable 
To add what Ack said, I would also say that DK is being banned alot too. He really does rape with S+Y like TB does, when he hits 16.
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Yea that IHCS replay, I mean the QOP sucked but I'm thinking even if it was Vigoss's QOP, Loda's TB would've still solo'd mid pretty comfortably, his use of lifesteal is pretty sick. Although if any stunner comes in to gank, TB would be dead instantly.
One of the things I think I'm doing wrong is that I make my team play too passively early mid game. We don't gank often, we only ward our side of the map, and we pretty much just farm and defend ganks until the other team starts pushing. I guess this is from watching too many WG replays. Versus a TB/DK carry we should try to gank him often and it doesn't matter if we ignore everyone else, as long as we harass the carry often enough so that he doesn't free farm, we'll have done our job.
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EPT
