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On June 12 2010 03:44 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:43 Pokebunny wrote:On June 12 2010 03:41 JeeJee wrote:
Yeah I'm totally not gonna get harassed by 500+ range heroes with useful spells because I do a bit extra autoattack damage. Even with +damage, most heroes that would get bf/ra are poor laners.
lol tell that to eth's CD Armadon isn't a relevant hero. Also, CD isn't 500+ range, if you read my post. are you telling me CD isn't a good laner? lol
No, but armadon vs CD involves neither of the hero types we were discussing, making your post completely irrelevant.
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On June 12 2010 03:45 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:44 JeeJee wrote:On June 12 2010 03:43 Pokebunny wrote:On June 12 2010 03:41 JeeJee wrote:
Yeah I'm totally not gonna get harassed by 500+ range heroes with useful spells because I do a bit extra autoattack damage. Even with +damage, most heroes that would get bf/ra are poor laners.
lol tell that to eth's CD Armadon isn't a relevant hero. Also, CD isn't 500+ range, if you read my post. are you telling me CD isn't a good laner? lol No, but armadon vs CD involves neither of the hero types we were discussing, making your post completely irrelevant.
melee hero vs a ranged laner with useful spells?
totally not relevant.
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On June 12 2010 03:41 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +
Yeah I'm totally not gonna get harassed by 500+ range heroes with useful spells because I do a bit extra autoattack damage. Even with +damage, most heroes that would get bf/ra are poor laners.
lol tell that to eth's CD
what the fuck are you talking about ive not played a game with cd in ages, not since the stats reset for sure.
and im pretty sure ive never gone against your armadon, much less against my cd.
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On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power.
A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters.
When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage.
When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps.
The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it.
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On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it.
die in a grease fire
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On June 12 2010 03:51 Etherone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it. die in a grease fire
he's right though
also, claymore first gets much stronger with animation cancelling. you can't animation cancel hp gain so lifetube isn't such a good choice
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On June 12 2010 03:24 Glull wrote:
>_<
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On June 12 2010 03:52 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:51 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it. die in a grease fire he's right though also, claymore first gets much stronger with animation cancelling. you can't animation cancel hp gain so lifetube isn't such a good choice
he is trolling and you are that bad
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On June 12 2010 03:58 Etherone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:52 JeeJee wrote:On June 12 2010 03:51 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it. die in a grease fire he's right though also, claymore first gets much stronger with animation cancelling. you can't animation cancel hp gain so lifetube isn't such a good choice he is trolling and you are that bad
nah, it's just understandable you don't understand the high-level decision making involved in going claymore first
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On June 12 2010 04:00 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:58 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:52 JeeJee wrote:On June 12 2010 03:51 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it. die in a grease fire he's right though also, claymore first gets much stronger with animation cancelling. you can't animation cancel hp gain so lifetube isn't such a good choice he is trolling and you are that bad nah, it's just understandable you don't understand the high-level decision making involved in going claymore first
for the record ive played a game where jeejee went claymore first.
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Because he was trying to augment his base damage by an even further impressive amount that would be viable lategame and against harassment of heroes.
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On June 12 2010 04:11 Etherone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 04:00 JeeJee wrote:On June 12 2010 03:58 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:52 JeeJee wrote:On June 12 2010 03:51 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it. die in a grease fire he's right though also, claymore first gets much stronger with animation cancelling. you can't animation cancel hp gain so lifetube isn't such a good choice he is trolling and you are that bad nah, it's just understandable you don't understand the high-level decision making involved in going claymore first for the record ive played a game where jeejee went claymore first.
for the record, ive played a game where eth's poly + someone's pyro got first blooded by a single rampage
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Rampage is pretty beast. Especially with battlefury.
There's a minor bug in coding where if you go battlefury on Rampage, it treats each of the cleave hits from the battlefury as separate damage sources from Rampage which means it's possible to proc a Greater Bash on each of the targets that are cleaved. It's a very powerful build and brings a lot of team presence for Rampage.
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On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it.
How do you manage to harass an opposing hero with any of the bf carries, except swiftblade? I understand that people seem to prefer aggressive strats these days, but if you do one of said strats, wouldn't picking a bf carry be the worst idea?
edit: Even if you were trying to push someone back, having a lifetube would probably end up accomplishing the same thing, as you have an infinite supply of regen to push your opponent out of lane. I suppose I can see how it can be viable, but against double 500+ range heroes (which is what most offensive lanes have, or a double stun combo) I don't see how this would work.
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On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power.
nop for dota, because situation determines
if somebody says "always" they usually mean "almost always" or "usually"
most heroes dont get bfury, but for those that do it depends what they have first
Bottle/Magic Stick means they probably dont need the ring of health so they skip it to claymore for damage that is more meaningful, or i ask myself if i am going to have a hard time in lane if i skip ring of health, in the end it just matters on the matchup and how good the other team is
If im going to, then ring of health -> Claymore. mana regen not gotten until later
regen is not ignored, but if people have it then why bother
then again tbh i expect lothars when i see claymore first these days
nobody really serious gets quelling/hatchet now, i get it sometimes but its not that good other than a jungle item and i wouldnt get it in a serious game although it is useful against furion 
strength heroes => +3 strength is more hp, more damage, and for support strength heroes can be build into urn of shadows
agility heroes => +3 agility more damage and can be built into poor mans shield quickly, for ranged heroes they dont have such a hard time laning and usually get regen later in ring of health/vanguard/bfury or hotd or vlads depending on heroes
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On June 12 2010 04:20 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 04:11 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 04:00 JeeJee wrote:On June 12 2010 03:58 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:52 JeeJee wrote:On June 12 2010 03:51 Etherone wrote:On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it. die in a grease fire he's right though also, claymore first gets much stronger with animation cancelling. you can't animation cancel hp gain so lifetube isn't such a good choice he is trolling and you are that bad nah, it's just understandable you don't understand the high-level decision making involved in going claymore first for the record ive played a game where jeejee went claymore first. for the record, ive played a game where eth's poly + someone's pyro got first blooded by a single rampage
............... wat
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On June 12 2010 05:24 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:49 Elemenope wrote:On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. A compilation of all games where people went Claymore first in making a battlefury and those that went ring of health first were compared and it was found that those that go Claymore first do not in fact have a harder time in lane, and in fact have an easier time due to the higher range of last hitting when hatchet+claymore is used in conjunction with one another in combination with the generally higher damaging and faster attack point of melee characters. When harassing the opposing hero as well, the claymore helps much more than the hatchet and lifetube due to a) the hatchet doesn't apply to heroes, and b) the lifetube doesn't deal damage. When going claymore first, you're playing a more aggressive game in which you don't just run up to do damage to a creep and then move back; you're going up to attack the enemy hero then after you push the enemy hero outside of the lane, you come back and start have free farm against creeps. The metagame shift in harassing and last hitting from going lifetube first to claymore first is quite a large change and doesn't seem all that viable at first glance, but you should try it out a few times before hating on it. How do you manage to harass an opposing hero with any of the bf carries, except swiftblade? I understand that people seem to prefer aggressive strats these days, but if you do one of said strats, wouldn't picking a bf carry be the worst idea? edit: Even if you were trying to push someone back, having a lifetube would probably end up accomplishing the same thing, as you have an infinite supply of regen to push your opponent out of lane. I suppose I can see how it can be viable, but against double 500+ range heroes (which is what most offensive lanes have, or a double stun combo) I don't see how this would work.
TDL and Magebane both have ways of closing the distance and both of these are quite dangerous as Mana Combustion is pretty rape and deals even extra damage on top of the claymore damage and TDL's charge has good damage potential, especially combined with Dark Blades. Scout can invis up to the hero, as well as Madman. Chronos can also time walk into the opponent for damage.
All of these also function as an escape mechanism which allows you to forego the RoH first in favor of +damage as if you get to the point where you're close to dying [which shouldn't happen if you go claymore first and you're aggressive], you can use their respective skills to further the distance between you two and also avoid ganks. Chronos even more so considering he has Rewind which is completely broken.
If you go RoH first because of the regen and "lane staying power", your opponent is most likely going +damage items via early phase boots or going for nuking power via his bottle, which means that you will get pushed out of the lane if they play an aggressive style as your RoH isn't capable of supporting the amount of harass and nukes you take. It's much better overall to just go Claymore first and ferry a health pot to you for burst regen while harassing them and pushing them out of the lane. If you're aggressive with your harass and your cs, then you also deny them the gold they need for that early phase/bottle which means they also won't be able to harass you as effectively which just widens the gap of your dominating prowess even more.
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On June 12 2010 02:17 bhp255 wrote:
so i hear a racecar is coming zoom zoom
omg gaybriel come pub =]
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i build my bfuries all at once you fucking chobos
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On June 12 2010 05:35 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 03:35 Pokebunny wrote:
It must be different in DotA, because I'd rather have +20 damage to creeps for 225g than 1200g. Lifetube allows you to get more farm than ANOTHER +20 damage ever would, you already have enough damage with hatchet, now you just need to resist harass. I honestly can't see a reason you would take one of the swords before lifetube.
It seems like multiple people disagree with me, but I am honestly astonished that you'd rather have +20 damage in lane than long term regen, especially when you can get hatchet for cheap lasthit power. nop for dota, because situation determines if somebody says "always" they usually mean "almost always" or "usually" most heroes dont get bfury, but for those that do it depends what they have first Bottle/Magic Stick means they probably dont need the ring of health so they skip it to claymore for damage that is more meaningful, or i ask myself if i am going to have a hard time in lane if i skip ring of health, in the end it just matters on the matchup and how good the other team is If im going to, then ring of health -> Claymore. mana regen not gotten until later regen is not ignored, but if people have it then why bother then again tbh i expect lothars when i see claymore first these days nobody really serious gets quelling/hatchet now, i get it sometimes but its not that good other than a jungle item and i wouldnt get it in a serious game although it is useful against furion strength heroes => +3 strength is more hp, more damage, and for support strength heroes can be build into urn of shadows agility heroes => +3 agility more damage and can be built into poor mans shield quickly, for ranged heroes they dont have such a hard time laning and usually get regen later in ring of health/vanguard/bfury or hotd or vlads depending on heroes
This shifts every few versions or so, but the fundamental ideas remain the same, damage over stats when you need to farm, stats over damage when you need to lane/roam/whatever else.
That distinction got muddled heavily thanks to Blink Dagger.
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EPT
