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I must say that ZeroSpace looks a bit more interesting (and polished) than StormGate. The problem both of those games have is that they both seem kinda derivative.
Why try and do SC2 clone instead of creating something new and interesting? Oh look, here are our "Legally Distinct Zerg" fighting our "Legally Distinct Terran"!
There's nothing wrong in being inspired by other pre-existing IPs but come on, having almost the same units and mechanics is a bit too much on the nose.
Supreme Commander and Beyond All Reason have quite a bit in common with each other and their predecessor (Total Annihilation) but at the same time each of them has enough distinct features to stand on its own and no one is complaining. There's even Planetary Annihilation game that can be lumped in with them and it also is very distinct despite having similar roots and core mechanics.
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I have quite a bit of time in both. Zerospace is the clear winner for me from a game design, fun, aesthetic pov.
Stormgate just doesn't offer me anything new. And the design seems so poor. For example: Why does the mineral dump melee tank for vanguard (lancer) run faster than every other unit? It's a tier 1 tank? I've lost all faith in their ability to design coherent gameplay after playing it. Everything they cloned from SC2 is fine, all the new stuff they created sucks (infest, infernal macro). Maybe they have an old blizzard engine programmer but there is nobody there who has created fun gameplay before and interesting 1v1 army interactions from scratch and it shows.
Art, maps and pathing is ass too.
They announced themselves as the "successor to SC2" that will listen to the community. Well judge them on their actions not words, and their actions are to completely ignore criticism.
Such a huge disappointment from how hype I was when they first announced frost giant.
No idea if zerospace can get the same free good will and backing the community gave stormgate but I really hope so. It's the game stormgate should have been.
SC2 is always going to be epic to watch though, I'll never stop doing that
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On February 23 2024 06:58 Manit0u wrote:
I must say that ZeroSpace looks a bit more interesting (and polished) than StormGate. The problem both of those games have is that they both seem kinda derivative.
Why try and do SC2 clone instead of creating something new and interesting? Oh look, here are our "Legally Distinct Zerg" fighting our "Legally Distinct Terran"!
There's nothing wrong in being inspired by other pre-existing IPs but come on, having almost the same units and mechanics is a bit too much on the nose.
Supreme Commander and Beyond All Reason have quite a bit in common with each other and their predecessor (Total Annihilation) but at the same time each of them has enough distinct features to stand on its own and no one is complaining. There's even Planetary Annihilation game that can be lumped in with them and it also is very distinct despite having similar roots and core mechanics.
This is exactly my problem with Zerospace. Aside from the fact that it currently looks like shit graphically (that will probably get better over time) it's just way too on the nose of a clone of Starcraft that it makes me wonder why should I bother learning it and not continue playing Starcraft?
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ZS does a sufficient number of other things to make it feel very distinct from Starcraft. Macro feels completely different with its build queue and unit queue, controls are superior with merged command keys, formation drag, gameplay is distinct with XP towers, heroes (which are bread and butter early but then fade into support units later), talents, mercs, topbar, and flux being an important mid-map resource.
It awakens in me that old git gud tryhard spirit, long grown crusty since WoL BL infestor and HotS swarm hosts and mothership core. For some reason, Stormgate doesn't do this for me at all.
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On February 23 2024 09:19 VelRa_G wrote:
ZS does a sufficient number of other things to make it feel very distinct from Starcraft. Macro feels completely different with its build queue and unit queue, controls are superior with merged command keys, formation drag, gameplay is distinct with XP towers, heroes (which are bread and butter early but then fade into support units later), talents, mercs, topbar, and flux being an important mid-map resource.
It awakens in me that old git gud tryhard spirit, long grown crusty since WoL BL infestor and HotS swarm hosts and mothership core. For some reason, Stormgate doesn't do this for me at all.
I don't doubt that but I just can't stop and wonder why does everyone seem to be doing just the same thing? Humans vs bugs + maybe one other faction.
If you're going to do that you could at least get a bit more creative, like Armies of Exigo by effectively merging Zerg and Protoss into a single race (warp-in buildings on a creep, bugs coupled with weird magical beings so you'd have something like zerglings and hydralisks backed up by high templars, archons etc.).
I mean, right off the top of my head I can come up with mechanical bugs that do warp-in building and use pylons instead of creep. The background is rogue AI swarm and they need those pylons to spread the network and control production facilities (as combat units have enough autonomy to be able to function without the pylons/transmitters but can get buffs while in the range of them).
From there on out you have a nice little kernel of lore that you can expand into describing how humanity expanded across the galaxy with the help of AIs but then the AI rebellion happened and now you have last vestiges of human race desperately fighting to survive with the aid of the last AI that is on their side. Can also add aliens.
Took me a few minutes to come up with an idea and basic background that's way more interesting than anything StormGate has. What are those "industry experts" doing and what are they being paid for?
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On February 23 2024 11:39 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2024 09:19 VelRa_G wrote:
ZS does a sufficient number of other things to make it feel very distinct from Starcraft. Macro feels completely different with its build queue and unit queue, controls are superior with merged command keys, formation drag, gameplay is distinct with XP towers, heroes (which are bread and butter early but then fade into support units later), talents, mercs, topbar, and flux being an important mid-map resource.
It awakens in me that old git gud tryhard spirit, long grown crusty since WoL BL infestor and HotS swarm hosts and mothership core. For some reason, Stormgate doesn't do this for me at all. I don't doubt that but I just can't stop and wonder why does everyone seem to be doing just the same thing? Humans vs bugs + maybe one other faction. If you're going to do that you could at least get a bit more creative, like Armies of Exigo by effectively merging Zerg and Protoss into a single race (warp-in buildings on a creep, bugs coupled with weird magical beings so you'd have something like zerglings and hydralisks backed up by high templars, archons etc.). I mean, right off the top of my head I can come up with mechanical bugs that do warp-in building and use pylons instead of creep. The background is rogue AI swarm and they need those pylons to spread the network and control production facilities (as combat units have enough autonomy to be able to function without the pylons/transmitters but can get buffs while in the range of them). From there on out you have a nice little kernel of lore that you can expand into describing how humanity expanded across the galaxy with the help of AIs but then the AI rebellion happened and now you have last vestiges of human race desperately fighting to survive with the aid of the last AI that is on their side. Can also add aliens. Took me a few minutes to come up with an idea and basic background that's way more interesting than anything StormGate has. What are those "industry experts" doing and what are they being paid for?
Just go into any longstanding Sci-Fi IP and get some ideas there.
Between Star Wars, Star Trek and Star Gate there are a 100 ideas for races. Hell why not make a Goa'uld parasite race?
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What also strikes me as a bit odd about both of these games.
Basically all the "hype" feels sooooo manufactured. Outside of TL and some (old) SC2 streamers on Youtube I haven't heard anything from anyone about either of these games. No one seems to give a shit outside of people that clearly have a financial interest in one of them succeeding.
Lol, didn't even realize there is actual controversy about Stormgates finances... Go figure.
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I had my hopes for stormgate high but the beta really put me off, to the point that I don't even think I will play or watch it ever again.
I forced myself to go through around 20 games and just uninstalled it.
Terrible visual, poor unit design, boring engagements
Zerospace on the other hand, I find myself watching a lot of the contents.
There are quite a lot of interesting mechanics and will be worth my time imo.
Definitely hoping there's gonna be a community around it.
I just don't think it will be very balanced though. There are so many variables going into it and merc making it even more complex.
It's actually the first game I backed in many years.
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On February 23 2024 11:39 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2024 09:19 VelRa_G wrote:
ZS does a sufficient number of other things to make it feel very distinct from Starcraft. Macro feels completely different with its build queue and unit queue, controls are superior with merged command keys, formation drag, gameplay is distinct with XP towers, heroes (which are bread and butter early but then fade into support units later), talents, mercs, topbar, and flux being an important mid-map resource.
It awakens in me that old git gud tryhard spirit, long grown crusty since WoL BL infestor and HotS swarm hosts and mothership core. For some reason, Stormgate doesn't do this for me at all. I don't doubt that but I just can't stop and wonder why does everyone seem to be doing just the same thing? Humans vs bugs + maybe one other faction. If you're going to do that you could at least get a bit more creative, like Armies of Exigo by effectively merging Zerg and Protoss into a single race (warp-in buildings on a creep, bugs coupled with weird magical beings so you'd have something like zerglings and hydralisks backed up by high templars, archons etc.).
Yeah I hear ya. Grell and Protectorate are very much Grass Zerg and Recall Terran. That said, Legion is a crazy faction concept I haven't really seen before. And Xol seems to have more in common with Grey Goo's Goo faction or Earth 2160 Morphids than any faction in the Blizzard catalogue. So we'll see how that shapes up. Maybe having two "familiar" factions and two outlandish ones is a decent mix of old and new?
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As I've already mentioned, out of those 2 games ZeroSpace looks way more interesting than StarGate with better and more polished concepts. It also does look like there's way more innovation in ZS compared to SG having pretty much only recycled content/mechanics.
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On February 23 2024 06:58 Manit0u wrote:
I must say that ZeroSpace looks a bit more interesting (and polished) than StormGate. The problem both of those games have is that they both seem kinda derivative.
Why try and do SC2 clone instead of creating something new and interesting? Oh look, here are our "Legally Distinct Zerg" fighting our "Legally Distinct Terran"!
There's nothing wrong in being inspired by other pre-existing IPs but come on, having almost the same units and mechanics is a bit too much on the nose.
You're not wrong at all. But I personally give them a pass on the basis that they (as far as I'm aware) wanted to make a Starcraft 3 while at Blizzard, but Activision stepped in and said no. The game is supposed to continue the legacy of Warcraft and Starcraft, titles which will never see sequels anyway, I wouldn't even mind if the game was more similar. Like their version of siege tanks look terrible, just make it look like an SC2 tank who cares.
Although I do also think Infernal seem a lot more like demons/orcs than bugs. Other than them having lings and being the "swarmy" race, they're pretty different to zerg in every other aspect. The human faction is 100% terran/space marine though, but it's a sci fi that's to be expected
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On February 23 2024 07:43 moomin22 wrote:
I have quite a bit of time in both. Zerospace is the clear winner for me from a game design, fun, aesthetic pov.
Stormgate just doesn't offer me anything new. And the design seems so poor. For example: Why does the mineral dump melee tank for vanguard (lancer) run faster than every other unit? It's a tier 1 tank? I've lost all faith in their ability to design coherent gameplay after playing it. Everything they cloned from SC2 is fine, all the new stuff they created sucks (infest, infernal macro). Maybe they have an old blizzard engine programmer but there is nobody there who has created fun gameplay before and interesting 1v1 army interactions from scratch and it shows.
Art, maps and pathing is ass too.
They announced themselves as the "successor to SC2" that will listen to the community. Well judge them on their actions not words, and their actions are to completely ignore criticism.
Crazy that Stormgate raised 4.5x as much (on a kickstarter than offered less) yet this thread is almost entirely people disliking it. I guess the expectation of "being the next Warcaft/Starcraft" is tough compared to "here's a new RTS game made by RTS players"
I will say having played the beta, Stormgate is pretty fun. It needs a lot of work in every department, but once you get into a game it doesn't feel far from playing SC2. I even think in some areas it's better (you spend more time fighting and micro'ing, and there's actually an early game).
Infest is a pretty cool idea, but there's no way that and veterancy don't get tuned down.
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I will say having played the beta, Stormgate is pretty fun. It needs a lot of work in every department, but once you get into a game it doesn't feel far from playing SC2
That's part of the problem though. It feels too similar to SC2 while at the same time not being as fun as SC2. I'm doubly unmotivated to play it for that reason. If it was a different enough experience to SC2 I could justify still wanting to play it just so I could play something different, but literally every game I played of the SG beta, I had to ask myself midgame why am I playing this instead of another game of SC2?
If you're going to make a game play almost exactly like a game that already exists it needs to be definitively BETTER than the game it's competing with. It isn't.
There's a TON of RTS games out there that manage to play very differently from each other to the point where I can like one more than the others but still want to play each of them at different times because I like the variety. I don't have that feeling for SG. I found no reason to want to keep playing it after I played the beta because it just felt too similar to SC2 while not being as fun.
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On February 24 2024 13:45 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +I will say having played the beta, Stormgate is pretty fun. It needs a lot of work in every department, but once you get into a game it doesn't feel far from playing SC2 That's part of the problem though. It feels too similar to SC2 while at the same time not being as fun as SC2. I'm doubly unmotivated to play it for that reason. If it was a different enough experience to SC2 I could justify still wanting to play it just so I could play something different, but literally every game I played of the SG beta, I had to ask myself midgame why am I playing this instead of another game of SC2? If you're going to make a game play almost exactly like a game that already exists it needs to be definitively BETTER than the game it's competing with. It isn't. There's a TON of RTS games out there that manage to play very differently from each other to the point where I can like one more than the others but still want to play each of them at different times because I like the variety. I don't have that feeling for SG. I found no reason to want to keep playing it after I played the beta because it just felt too similar to SC2 while not being as fun.
why wouldnt u want to play it if u love RTS so much. it is a starcraft "type of game" sure. but there are different units, and different mechanics. It's like wanting chocolate ice cream one day, and vanilla another. Sure they are both ice cream but they still can be enjoyed :D
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On February 24 2024 10:51 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2024 07:43 moomin22 wrote:
I have quite a bit of time in both. Zerospace is the clear winner for me from a game design, fun, aesthetic pov.
Stormgate just doesn't offer me anything new. And the design seems so poor. For example: Why does the mineral dump melee tank for vanguard (lancer) run faster than every other unit? It's a tier 1 tank? I've lost all faith in their ability to design coherent gameplay after playing it. Everything they cloned from SC2 is fine, all the new stuff they created sucks (infest, infernal macro). Maybe they have an old blizzard engine programmer but there is nobody there who has created fun gameplay before and interesting 1v1 army interactions from scratch and it shows.
Art, maps and pathing is ass too.
They announced themselves as the "successor to SC2" that will listen to the community. Well judge them on their actions not words, and their actions are to completely ignore criticism.
Crazy that Stormgate raised 4.5x as much (on a kickstarter than offered less) yet this thread is almost entirely people disliking it. I guess the expectation of "being the next Warcaft/Starcraft" is tough compared to "here's a new RTS game made by RTS players" I will say having played the beta, Stormgate is pretty fun. It needs a lot of work in every department, but once you get into a game it doesn't feel far from playing SC2. I even think in some areas it's better (you spend more time fighting and micro'ing, and there's actually an early game). Infest is a pretty cool idea, but there's no way that and veterancy don't get tuned down.
While talking about money ...
With the latest controversy StormGate looks a lot like StarCitizen right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/s/VpQKwjmuXq
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It's like wanting chocolate ice cream one day, and vanilla another. Sure they are both ice cream but they still can be enjoyed :D
There is a trouble in your analogy - while playing games, you are the one who cooks. Game devs provide ingredients, but you need a skill to enjoy it. So more proper analogy would be a choice between chocolate ice cream that you know how to make and vanilla ice cream that needs a 500h in classes before you'll be able to make it as good aa the other one.
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And one has the finest ingredients. The other is cheap off brand copies that don't taste right (their pathing is aweful, the unit interactions are garbage)
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They need good stories to last.
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On February 22 2024 10:23 Nasigil wrote:
They seems to have a solid framework of a good RTS game but I haven't seen anything that indicates it will be a "next gen RTS", nothing I've seen so far really couldn't be done 15 years ago. It's just something that really resembles a mix of SC2/WC3, almost like a mod. I will reserve my judgement until they actually showing promising progress.
Completely agree, and I think I've said almost the exact same thing in the past.
They literally brand StormGate as "THE FUTURE OF RTS" at the top of their homepage to this day, but until now they have not shown anything beyond an utterly standard RTS framework featuring two dull and incomplete fractions with some of the most generic units imaginable and virtually every aspect of the game being derivative of SC2 and WC3.
Like, if I told a friend who has not followed the RTS scene since the release of SC2 WoL that a new game is coming out and I had to summarize the main novelties I would not know what to say.
Usually at this point the response is, "Well, it is not actually supposed to be innovative in any way, it's just supposed to take the best elements of RTS and combine them in a modern-day client", but well, even this requires interesting and captivating and organically interacting units, fractions, mechanics, and gameplay. Perhaps all these things will be added at some point, and I hope they do, but what has been shown so far for me is not indicative of a great and coherent vision.
ZeroSpace seems much more promising to me simply because it involves interesting and new ideas.
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EPT
