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CicadaSC
United States1786 Posts
On May 30 2023 14:11 Ziggy wrote: As long as we get to see some of that alpha gameplay on streams and such and it's not restricted to just a select few completely under an NDA, I'll be a happy camper. i heard thats what it was, the testing in july will be completely under NDA. | ||
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1786 Posts
On May 31 2023 17:01 Hildegard wrote: As someone who enjoys watching RTS more than playing, the lower lethality and bigger defender's advantage has me slightly worried. What makes SC2 so exciting is that the game can end at any time. Just as long as there aren't any stupid ways to lose, that are only fun for one side, I'm game. Cheese should be easier to defend in general. Not saying every game should be macro, but at the top level it should be easy to defend. Cheese should be something that only works vs noobs if at all. You can not convince me losing to a cannon rush is fun or good design. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6958 Posts
On May 31 2023 21:46 CicadaSC wrote: Just as long as there aren't any stupid ways to lose, that are only fun for one side, I'm game. Cheese should be easier to defend in general. Not saying every game should be macro, but at the top level it should be easy to defend. Cheese should be something that only works vs noobs if at all. You can not convince me losing to a cannon rush is fun or good design. No cheese should be something that can end a game on all levels if not scouted properly. And if scouted and defended, the cheeser should be behind. Risk - reward Though we do not know what kind of scouting Stormgate has, scouting does belong to a good thought out rts | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On May 31 2023 21:53 Harris1st wrote: No cheese should be something that can end a game on all levels if not scouted properly. And if scouted and defended, the cheeser should be behind. Risk - reward Though we do not know what kind of scouting Stormgate has, scouting does belong to a good thought out rts Agreed. Trying to remove cheese entirely from competent level play is a terrible idea that leads to stale metas and is likely going to require mechanics that either allow game-dragging excessive defense from behind, or slow and static early games. While it should be possible to play `safe' against cheese, that safety must come at a cost that is at least sometimes not worth it. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1786 Posts
On May 31 2023 23:04 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Agreed. Trying to remove cheese entirely from competent level play is a terrible idea that leads to stale metas and is likely going to require mechanics that either allow game-dragging excessive defense from behind, or slow and static early games. While it should be possible to play `safe' against cheese, that safety must come at a cost that is at least sometimes not worth it. You can have all-ins that aren't 1 base cheese. I think aggressive play is fine, but take league of legends for example. You have invades and such, but no game will end immediately. Not in CSGO or valorant either. I get RTS players are used to cheese but games ending in sub 5 minutes just feels bad 99% of the time for the losing player and induces rage. Often feeling undeserved. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On May 31 2023 23:47 CicadaSC wrote: You can have all-ins that aren't 1 base cheese. I think aggressive play is fine, but take league of legends for example. You have invades and such, but no game will end immediately. Not in CSGO or valorant either. I get RTS players are used to cheese but games ending in sub 5 minutes just feels bad 99% of the time for the losing player and induces rage. Often feeling undeserved. RTS has very different economic systems to those sorts of games. Variable game length is a feature, not a bug. Early, pro-active cheese (as opposed to reactive aggression after scouting) as a gamble / greedcheck plays a useful role in punishing greedy play and ensuring build diversity. Don't wanna possibly lose in 5 minutes? Don't play greedy. Many players do also actually enjoy it and what it brings to tournament and series play. While not everyone likes the extra `poker-esque' element, I think it really adds to the e-sport viewing experience and makes ladder meta-gaming a bit more interesting. Viewers go crazy for seeing a cannon rush or whatever in game 7 of a series. It's just inherently exciting when a player gambles their tournament like that. Would I be on board with slightly lowering the impactfulness of cheese? Sure (for example, I feel the early game is in a better place in LotV than it was in WoL). But largely removing it? Absolutely not. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
3027 Posts
On May 31 2023 17:01 Hildegard wrote: As someone who enjoys watching RTS more than playing, the lower lethality and bigger defender's advantage has me slightly worried. What makes SC2 so exciting is that the game can end at any time. I feel you but the game really should be designed for players first. Imagine loving to play AND watch !! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On May 31 2023 23:47 CicadaSC wrote: You can have all-ins that aren't 1 base cheese. I think aggressive play is fine, but take league of legends for example. You have invades and such, but no game will end immediately. Not in CSGO or valorant either. I get RTS players are used to cheese but games ending in sub 5 minutes just feels bad 99% of the time for the losing player and induces rage. Often feeling undeserved. For me much cheese is itself done blindly, but yet the onus can be on the defender to respond perfectly/be punished brutally for a bad scout, despite the aggressor playing equally ‘badly’ in that regard. Especially that enabled by virtue of knowing your opponent’s spawn outright, those can be very frustrating indeed. They are thrilling to watch as a calculated risk in a prestige tournament, considerably less so when it’s playing ladder. I think we’ve all had sessions where by the luck of the draw we played a series of different cheeses in a row, and that ‘Hm I’ve technically played some SC but it sure doesn’t feel it’ I dunno what the ideal is, but I think if the game launches and the first few weeks are whatever newbies to RTS are dragged in getting cheesed the fuck out game after game, I dunno if they’ll have that good a time. I don’t think the genre would suffer unduly if it became extremely difficult to kill anyone but the insanely greedy in say the first minute and a half/2 minutes You could still have clever committed builds, or run a fakeout to trick an opponent after an initial scout and much more besides. If they could find a way to design the game so that 3/4 player maps are doable, where in SC2 that gradually tapered off from viability, then that could indirectly help too. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On June 01 2023 01:37 RogerChillingworth wrote: I feel you but the game really should be designed for players first. Imagine loving to play AND watch !! I don’t think you’d lose anything anyway, it’d just be enhanced if they find the sweet spot. Some of the most fun stuff to watch are the crazy micro battles you see when army supplies are quite small. In SC2 you could give archon control to Seru and Maru and they’ll still struggle to do much fancy with a max engage that lasts sub-5 seconds Of course go too far in the other direction and you end up with elongated slugfests with units that are too tanky, so I’m interested to see what kind of balance they come up with. From what I’ve heard it’s currently playing as somewhere between SC2 and WC3 in that regard, which is 100% where I’d go, perhaps erring towards SC2 speed very slightly | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1138 Posts
On June 01 2023 01:57 WombaT wrote: I don’t think you’d lose anything anyway, it’d just be enhanced if they find the sweet spot. Some of the most fun stuff to watch are the crazy micro battles you see when army supplies are quite small. In SC2 you could give archon control to Seru and Maru and they’ll still struggle to do much fancy with a max engage that lasts sub-5 seconds Of course go too far in the other direction and you end up with elongated slugfests with units that are too tanky, so I’m interested to see what kind of balance they come up with. From what I’ve heard it’s currently playing as somewhere between SC2 and WC3 in that regard, which is 100% where I’d go, perhaps erring towards SC2 speed very slightly beastyqt seemed to indicate from his pre-alpha testing that Stormgate's speed is somewhere between AOE4 and SC2. so it looks like we're in the FUN zone as far as gamespeed is concerned: erring slightly towards SC2 speed | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On June 01 2023 02:37 SHODAN wrote: beastyqt seemed to indicate from his pre-alpha testing that Stormgate's speed is somewhere between AOE4 and SC2. so it looks like we're in the FUN zone as far as gamespeed is concerned: erring slightly towards SC2 speed Noiceeee | ||
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
Hopefully Stormgate has fun early game interactions like Reaper vs Zerglings. However, the main buildings having automated defenses without upgrades would be terrible in my opinion. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
Was having a read through, much promising. Thought it was worth posting as a kind of one-stop-shop I do get certain alarm bells with certain things but it’s entirely dependent on what else they’re doing. Easier macro mechanics and in some ways micro, hey I like doing those things. But if there’s a lot of rich strategy and the easier UI is bolted on to satisfactory and high skill ceiling micro it can totally work for me. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19270 Posts
On June 01 2023 05:37 WombaT wrote: Pretty nifty summation of what we (kinda) know about Stormgate so far Was having a read through, much promising. Thought it was worth posting as a kind of one-stop-shop I do get certain alarm bells with certain things but it’s entirely dependent on what else they’re doing. Easier macro mechanics and in some ways micro, hey I like doing those things. But if there’s a lot of rich strategy and the easier UI is bolted on to satisfactory and high skill ceiling micro it can totally work for me. Reading that summation all together actually got me pretty hyped. One huge concern I had was the hero feature. I struggled to do well in 1v1 WC3 cause I didn't want my hero to be the my main focus. However, I love co-op play in SC2 and think the hero's synergize well. I think there is room for hero play if done right. Slightly off topic: I often dream that we could have a game that would combine the MOBA aspects with RTS. So a 5v5 man team where 4 players control hero's and one player controls an army. | ||
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Slydie
1923 Posts
Slightly off topic: I often dream that we could have a game that would combine the MOBA aspects with RTS. So a 5v5 man team where 4 players control hero's and one player controls an army. I think hero micro and econ macro are hard to combine. So is individual heroes and whole armies, WC3 had to use the frustrating mechanic "upkeep" as a bandaid. In PvP, either the heroes need to be so OP the armies melt, or the heroes will get swarmed. Campaigns are different, but the Heroes are arguably OP there too (Kerrigan...) | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19270 Posts
On June 01 2023 21:54 Slydie wrote: I think hero micro and econ macro are hard to combine. So is individual heroes and whole armies, WC3 had to use the frustrating mechanic "upkeep" as a bandaid. In PvP, either the heroes need to be so OP the armies melt, or the heroes will get swarmed. Campaigns are different, but the Heroes are arguably OP there too (Kerrigan...) I think you maintain the "lanes" concept for heroes, and a separate area for the 1v1 RTS battle to occur. As the 1v1 player earns expansions they can gain a new resource called a "hero resource". The heroes could purchase upgrades similar to dota. As heroes defeat certain objectives, or creep, the 1v1 army would gain bonuses through movement speed/atk spd/ atk dmg/defense/additional army/etc. As heroes eliminate towers, it could give permanent (atk/armor) upgrades to the army units. Edit: Additionally, the 1v1 battle doesn't result in a victory. If a 1v1 player loses, the moba team gains a heroic tier advantage either permanently or for a certain amount of time. The 1v1 battles restart and affect the moba portion of the game until the nexus for either team has fallen. | ||
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ZeroByte13
771 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On June 01 2023 22:47 ZeroByte13 wrote: It's possible that heroes will only be available in campaign and coop modes and maybe 3v3 PvP but not in 1v1. I hope so. Heroes / `global powers' mechanics are fine for 3v3 - especially if you make 3v3 somehow more objective-oriented. But pls FrostGiant keep them out of my 1v1. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
3027 Posts
On June 01 2023 04:23 Hildegard wrote: I love the early game micro wars. Usually, nothing happens in professional games, but once in a while a single well-microed reaper just wins the game. SC2 isn't perfect, but watching Reynor or Maru win games after being hit by DTs without having detection is amazing. Ragnarok's proxy hatchery plays in the season he got into the GSL final... SC2 has a huge range of things that can end the game early. Hopefully Stormgate has fun early game interactions like Reaper vs Zerglings. However, the main buildings having automated defenses without upgrades would be terrible in my opinion. I love the early game stuff. I'm looking forward to making whatever the microable units are and just walking across the map for some small engagements. It is present in SC1 and Warcraft III, so I'm anticipating it will be present in Stormgate. To me, at this point, the early performance of the game hinges on being able to be expressive through the units. | ||
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