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Northern Ireland26323 Posts
On December 23 2024 08:09 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2024 05:51 Acrofales wrote:On December 22 2024 22:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 21 2024 04:10 shikadisoda wrote:
this is the end result of people having delusions about sc2 being badly designed, badly balanced, etc. never made any sense to think some cheeks knockoff game was going to make audiences want to play RTS. greatest RTS game ever made already exists and nobody cares outside of a one-country cultural phenomenon Let's expand our look beyond the niche RTS and the single game franchise Starcraft. Let's look at the entire "action//strategy" genre. The consumers of the great "action//strategy" games over the decades have been extremely loyal to the best games. Super Mario Bros. 3 is a great game. The peak of interst in the game came and went. Around the same time Super Tecmo Bowl, an "action/strategy" title came out for the NES. Super Tecmo Bowl has an active competitive community around it in 2024 some 33 years after its release. Super Tecmo Bowl's competitive community is a bit larger than it was in 2000. The game is growing. LOL. I think it is really cool how loyal people are to RTS. Let's not dismiss that loyalty with comments like " greatest RTS game ever made already exists and nobody cares outside of a one-country cultural phenomenon" Korean Starcraft is really, super fucking cool and some of the most fun times of my youth were spent in Korean PC Bangs. The buzz and tension in the air is indescribable. Let's not dismiss the Korean PC Bang phenomenon. It was awesome. Frost Giant is trying to keep that going. This effort will probably fail. At least, they tried man. What the hell does Tecmo Super Bowl have to do with strategy games? You might as well talk about competitive Tetris. Yes, it's a thing, and yes, the game is old. But what does that have to do with anything related to this thread? I think the point he was trying to get across was quite clear... He's providing examples of action/strategy games that have had dedicated fanbases for decades and how as dead as RTS might ever seem to be there will always be a very fervant fan base for it.
There’s active and there’s active enough to have a consistent tournament scene with full time professionals, for viewers around the world to tune in in decent numbers.
For people who want to see that, well Tecmo SuperBowl or NHL94 are completely irrelevant
Doesn’t meant you can’t have a meaningful scene, hey I’ve ran tournaments for 14 years and casted our de facto nationals. Aside from Abomb at IEM Sao Paolo nobody on this island has ever aspired to meaningful pro results, or ever have but doing a de facto Irish championship has always been a pleasure.
And I think that’ll persist, but for the people who’ve enjoyed best of the best pro tournaments for years, well there’s a ton of uncertainty there right now.
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That's awesome to see BW pro gamers playing in a StormGate tournament, curious to see the results.
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On December 23 2024 09:49 TelecoM wrote:
That's awesome to see BW pro gamers playing in a StormGate tournament, curious to see the results.
the results are out, tourney is wrapped up. the player who won doesn't surprise me i'll say that.
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On December 23 2024 08:09 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2024 05:51 Acrofales wrote:On December 22 2024 22:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 21 2024 04:10 shikadisoda wrote:
this is the end result of people having delusions about sc2 being badly designed, badly balanced, etc. never made any sense to think some cheeks knockoff game was going to make audiences want to play RTS. greatest RTS game ever made already exists and nobody cares outside of a one-country cultural phenomenon Let's expand our look beyond the niche RTS and the single game franchise Starcraft. Let's look at the entire "action//strategy" genre. The consumers of the great "action//strategy" games over the decades have been extremely loyal to the best games. Super Mario Bros. 3 is a great game. The peak of interst in the game came and went. Around the same time Super Tecmo Bowl, an "action/strategy" title came out for the NES. Super Tecmo Bowl has an active competitive community around it in 2024 some 33 years after its release. Super Tecmo Bowl's competitive community is a bit larger than it was in 2000. The game is growing. LOL. I think it is really cool how loyal people are to RTS. Let's not dismiss that loyalty with comments like " greatest RTS game ever made already exists and nobody cares outside of a one-country cultural phenomenon" Korean Starcraft is really, super fucking cool and some of the most fun times of my youth were spent in Korean PC Bangs. The buzz and tension in the air is indescribable. Let's not dismiss the Korean PC Bang phenomenon. It was awesome. Frost Giant is trying to keep that going. This effort will probably fail. At least, they tried man. What the hell does Tecmo Super Bowl have to do with strategy games? You might as well talk about competitive Tetris. Yes, it's a thing, and yes, the game is old. But what does that have to do with anything related to this thread? I think the point he was trying to get across was quite clear... He's providing examples of action/strategy games that have had dedicated fanbases for decades and how as dead as RTS might ever seem to be there will always be a very fervant fan base for it.
But it doesn't work here, none of the people who play SC2 or SCBW, AOE seires are excited about stormgate.
It doesn't really win any loyalty for any of the majority of these playerbase or their potential market. I don't see how this can really survive at all.
I have no clue how the latest BW Pro play stormgate tournament went and how it affect if anything. Just saying from my observation about myself and friends around me.
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On December 23 2024 05:51 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2024 22:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 21 2024 04:10 shikadisoda wrote:
this is the end result of people having delusions about sc2 being badly designed, badly balanced, etc. never made any sense to think some cheeks knockoff game was going to make audiences want to play RTS. greatest RTS game ever made already exists and nobody cares outside of a one-country cultural phenomenon Let's expand our look beyond the niche RTS and the single game franchise Starcraft. Let's look at the entire "action//strategy" genre. The consumers of the great "action//strategy" games over the decades have been extremely loyal to the best games. Super Mario Bros. 3 is a great game. The peak of interst in the game came and went. Around the same time Super Tecmo Bowl, an "action/strategy" title came out for the NES. Super Tecmo Bowl has an active competitive community around it in 2024 some 33 years after its release. Super Tecmo Bowl's competitive community is a bit larger than it was in 2000. The game is growing. LOL. I think it is really cool how loyal people are to RTS. Let's not dismiss that loyalty with comments like " greatest RTS game ever made already exists and nobody cares outside of a one-country cultural phenomenon" Korean Starcraft is really, super fucking cool and some of the most fun times of my youth were spent in Korean PC Bangs. The buzz and tension in the air is indescribable. Let's not dismiss the Korean PC Bang phenomenon. It was awesome. Frost Giant is trying to keep that going. This effort will probably fail. At least, they tried man. What the hell does Tecmo Super Bowl have to do with strategy games? You might as well talk about competitive Tetris. Yes, it's a thing, and yes, the game is old. But what does that have to do with anything related to this thread?
Super Tecmo Bowl involves tonnes of strategy. It has an audience that is not going away... similar to Starcraft and M.U.L.E. and other action/strategy titles of the 90s.
Even the original Tecmo Bowl has a tonne of strategy. Here is a video on how to stop Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl. Notice Lawrence Taylor is very effective against Bo Jackson, but ineffective in the hands a skilled player using Marcus Allen.
Bo Jackson's Tecmo Bowl reputation is so big it made it into a National TV commercial some 30 years after the game was released.
Good Times!
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BeoMulf posted a long interview with Allen Dilling, the new art director, on his youtube.
Don't want to jinx it but Allen gives me good vibes. FG is really going to benefit from him I think.
Not 100% on every single one of his ideas, and we won't know anyway until they're in the game, but it feels better. Like when you watch a movie and it's clear some dude wrote the script instead of an amorphous group of producers or whatever. That level of trust in someone to take the reins is really huge for what FG needs in this moment.
This is a good sign for FG and Stormgate. I think their being humbled and sad after EA will ultimately be good for their game. They needed to step in shit and be punched in the face a few times.
edit: As cool as Allen seems, I'm not sure he has his fingers in everything, so the the design and social features and all that could still end up lacking. And I got a small hint from the interview that maybe some of the cool concepts haven't been translated super well to 3D, which is ultimately what the players experience.
I guess he can only do so much and we'll see if it's good enough.
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On December 25 2024 15:22 RogerChillingworth wrote:
BeoMulf posted a long interview with Allen Dilling, the new art director, on his youtube.
Don't want to jinx it but Allen gives me good vibes. FG is really going to benefit from him I think.
Not 100% on every single one of his ideas, and we won't know anyway until they're in the game, but it feels better. Like when you watch a movie and it's clear some dude wrote the script instead of an amorphous group of producers or whatever. That level of trust in someone to take the reins is really huge for what FG needs in this moment.
This is a good sign for FG and Stormgate. I think their being humbled and sad after EA will ultimately be good for their game. They needed to step in shit and be punched in the face a few times.
edit: As cool as Allen seems, I'm not sure he has his fingers in everything, so the the design and social features and all that could still end up lacking. And I got a small hint from the interview that maybe some of the cool concepts haven't been translated super well to 3D, which is ultimately what the players experience.
I guess he can only do so much and we'll see if it's good enough.
Here is the thing, I liked Allings original concept art for the Infernals, and his explanation as well of their inspiration in that interview with the girl. The latest teases though? Look more cartoony and has pushed my excitement in the opposite direction. I mean, look at the original Brute concept tease from Allen, then look at the most recent one. It's just worse. Same with the hero on the cube. The concept sketch originally looked so cool. Still cool now, but much less imo. I don't blame Allen, frost giant is probably trying to fit his idea into their artistic vision and uniform with the rest of stormgates art but I can't help but feel a bit sad, like there is missed potential.
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It's just a feeling I get with Allen. The implementations could be underwhelming, or wrong in a different direction. It's a fair point because I've liked a lot of the concept art for SG but when it gets converted to 3D and is in game it just doesn't feel the same.
The puzzlebox caster is definitely an odd one, but sometimes those turn out to be the most interesting and iconic gameplay wise (thinking about Yrel from Heroes of the Storm—similar looking character, one of the most fun and interesting in the game, also a bit of a black sheep).
I'm at least happy that this new creative director is leaning away from the 'ragtag/scrappy' aesthetic that some people were very vocal about wanting for the human faction, and attempting to inject more logic and "civilization" into the Infernals. You can make a 2-headed ogre work, but there has to be an in-world explanation which there wasn't. There wasn't an in-world explanation for much of anything.
At any rate, the main point is that one person with a fair amount of personality seems to have a bit of creative agency and is going for it, which is good. And it's also good that things are being straight up redesigned, along with the lore, which leaves them at least open to improvement.
Now if they can just design their campaign characters with a little bit more intention and fewer Marvel zoomerisms mixed with C-grade nostalgia, the game could have a decent 1.0. But as I say that, the list of things that needs to be considered and built is still so long.
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I've been trying to be less harsh, so 'C-grade nostalgia' might be a little too much. Let's just say it'd be nice to see a solid campaign that is significantly different from what people played in EA, and a central character in Amara who is compelling and not a mirror image of Arthas or some other character.
I don't have a ton of faith and really don't have much vested interest but, just on principal, these artists and writers should be able to deliver something good. And the people eager for some cool campaign action should be happy with what they're getting.
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I mentioned it before but they pretty much messed it up from the get go and good luck to them.
If you look at the in-game cinematic, the issue isn't the animation or model alone, it's that they got no idea what it should be.
Look at their neutral creeps with shadowery demons, weird slimes, demons that are more ogre. Do we really think any two of them would fit the final Cutscene of chapter 1 and not be out of place entirely?
It's like Winnie the Pooh horror film, but they forgot to redesign the models, or Thomas the Train mods in Skyrim.
The lore, the presentation etc all need to feel and be consistent. If they already have the lore all set up, and going into certain direction, there's only so much FG can do without redoing some scripts and screenplay and even music.
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On December 26 2024 20:40 ETisME wrote:
Look at their neutral creeps with shadowery demons, weird slimes, demons that are more ogre. Do we really think any two of them would fit the final Cutscene of chapter 1 and not be out of place entirely?
Surely the more creeps and tilesets they add to the game, the better matched they will be? The problem is they only have like two tilesets and 3 creeps in the game right now. All of the campaign we currently have, including cutscenes, is apparently getting remade anyway
They currently have mad max-y scavengers which fit the desert wasteland, but the slimes and demons would be more suited to an alien world. WC3 did this so it seems like common sense.
We know basically nothing about the lore other than that Stormgates are portals between worlds that allow demons to invade. Which does mean some mismatching would be consistent.
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https://playstormgate.com/news/looking-ahead-stormgate-s-path-forward
"We are moving forward as a leaner, more focused team"
I speculated that a smaller team might be a viable path months ago. With today's tools making video games is easier than ever.
"We’ve updated our Roadmap accordingly "
the way games get made in 2024 often consumers need a roadmap for all the roadmaps publishers crank out.
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On December 26 2024 05:26 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2024 15:22 RogerChillingworth wrote:
BeoMulf posted a long interview with Allen Dilling, the new art director, on his youtube.
Don't want to jinx it but Allen gives me good vibes. FG is really going to benefit from him I think.
Not 100% on every single one of his ideas, and we won't know anyway until they're in the game, but it feels better. Like when you watch a movie and it's clear some dude wrote the script instead of an amorphous group of producers or whatever. That level of trust in someone to take the reins is really huge for what FG needs in this moment.
This is a good sign for FG and Stormgate. I think their being humbled and sad after EA will ultimately be good for their game. They needed to step in shit and be punched in the face a few times.
edit: As cool as Allen seems, I'm not sure he has his fingers in everything, so the the design and social features and all that could still end up lacking. And I got a small hint from the interview that maybe some of the cool concepts haven't been translated super well to 3D, which is ultimately what the players experience.
I guess he can only do so much and we'll see if it's good enough. Here is the thing, I liked Allings original concept art for the Infernals, and his explanation as well of their inspiration in that interview with the girl. The latest teases though? Look more cartoony and has pushed my excitement in the opposite direction. I mean, look at the original Brute concept tease from Allen, then look at the most recent one. It's just worse. Same with the hero on the cube. The concept sketch originally looked so cool. Still cool now, but much less imo. I don't blame Allen, frost giant is probably trying to fit his idea into their artistic vision and uniform with the rest of stormgates art but I can't help but feel a bit sad, like there is missed potential.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/uBDF01d.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cTEkVvl.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/LT5kjOU.png)
I disagree. When you zoom all those images out until the units are RTS sized, the final design is the best one. Although I agree that the original concept art definitely looked cooler and better.
The new director has a good understanding of how to design units for an RTS camera. Models need to be somewhat smooth, blocky, and lacking in any detail that would become blurry when zoomed out. The shoulders and weapons are oversized so that you can tell what they are and when they're attacking. And the team colours pop very clearly.
The current brute doesn't do any of that stuff.
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so literally copy Tauren from Warcraft or WOW add a tail to be a demon and slap a big ass sword on it like final fantasy style, I get it. :D
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On December 26 2024 22:15 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2024 20:40 ETisME wrote:
Look at their neutral creeps with shadowery demons, weird slimes, demons that are more ogre. Do we really think any two of them would fit the final Cutscene of chapter 1 and not be out of place entirely?
Surely the more creeps and tilesets they add to the game, the better matched they will be? The problem is they only have like two tilesets and 3 creeps in the game right now. All of the campaign we currently have, including cutscenes, is apparently getting remade anyway They currently have mad max-y scavengers which fit the desert wasteland, but the slimes and demons would be more suited to an alien world. WC3 did this so it seems like common sense. We know basically nothing about the lore other than that Stormgates are portals between worlds that allow demons to invade. Which does mean some mismatching would be consistent.
They should have matched it at the start and if there’s a ln intentional mismatch due to lore, they would and should have kept it revealed at campaign (but still wouldn’t solve how weird it all looks)
I look at it and think they are just throwing ln whatever models they drafted up, if these are the “worlds” then it doesn’t look like they fit in the semi serious tone they were (?) going for
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Man, new art concepts are terrible.
People are making some logical mistakes.
You have to compare these concepts with their old counterparts, not with in-game models. Old concepts are way better. The culprit is implementation.
These new concepts look like they went straight from the mobile game. Imagine 3D models based on it.
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On December 27 2024 10:02 ChillFlame wrote:
Man, new art concepts are terrible.
People are making some logical mistakes.
You have to compare these concepts with their old counterparts, not with in-game models. Old concepts are way better. The culprit is implementation.
These new concepts look like they went straight from the mobile game. Imagine 3D models based on it.
I wouldn't say terrible, but i definitely agree their old concept art counterparts were better. These definitely look more mobile game/cartoony.
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On December 27 2024 02:52 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2024 05:26 CicadaSC wrote:On December 25 2024 15:22 RogerChillingworth wrote:
BeoMulf posted a long interview with Allen Dilling, the new art director, on his youtube.
Don't want to jinx it but Allen gives me good vibes. FG is really going to benefit from him I think.
Not 100% on every single one of his ideas, and we won't know anyway until they're in the game, but it feels better. Like when you watch a movie and it's clear some dude wrote the script instead of an amorphous group of producers or whatever. That level of trust in someone to take the reins is really huge for what FG needs in this moment.
This is a good sign for FG and Stormgate. I think their being humbled and sad after EA will ultimately be good for their game. They needed to step in shit and be punched in the face a few times.
edit: As cool as Allen seems, I'm not sure he has his fingers in everything, so the the design and social features and all that could still end up lacking. And I got a small hint from the interview that maybe some of the cool concepts haven't been translated super well to 3D, which is ultimately what the players experience.
I guess he can only do so much and we'll see if it's good enough. Here is the thing, I liked Allings original concept art for the Infernals, and his explanation as well of their inspiration in that interview with the girl. The latest teases though? Look more cartoony and has pushed my excitement in the opposite direction. I mean, look at the original Brute concept tease from Allen, then look at the most recent one. It's just worse. Same with the hero on the cube. The concept sketch originally looked so cool. Still cool now, but much less imo. I don't blame Allen, frost giant is probably trying to fit his idea into their artistic vision and uniform with the rest of stormgates art but I can't help but feel a bit sad, like there is missed potential. I disagree. When you zoom all those images out until the units are RTS sized, the final design is the best one. Although I agree that the original concept art definitely looked cooler and better. The new director has a good understanding of how to design units for an RTS camera. Models need to be somewhat smooth, blocky, and lacking in any detail that would become blurry when zoomed out. The shoulders and weapons are oversized so that you can tell what they are and when they're attacking. And the team colours pop very clearly. The current brute doesn't do any of that stuff.
I guess we are all subject to our opinions though! But for me personally, it is quite literally the reverse order :p I think number 1 is the best, at the top, then middle is 2nd best, and the most polished i.e., 3rd concept tease is the worst. 3rd one just screams cartoon / PG rating to me.
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On December 28 2024 01:47 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2024 02:52 Fango wrote:On December 26 2024 05:26 CicadaSC wrote:On December 25 2024 15:22 RogerChillingworth wrote:
BeoMulf posted a long interview with Allen Dilling, the new art director, on his youtube.
Don't want to jinx it but Allen gives me good vibes. FG is really going to benefit from him I think.
Not 100% on every single one of his ideas, and we won't know anyway until they're in the game, but it feels better. Like when you watch a movie and it's clear some dude wrote the script instead of an amorphous group of producers or whatever. That level of trust in someone to take the reins is really huge for what FG needs in this moment.
This is a good sign for FG and Stormgate. I think their being humbled and sad after EA will ultimately be good for their game. They needed to step in shit and be punched in the face a few times.
edit: As cool as Allen seems, I'm not sure he has his fingers in everything, so the the design and social features and all that could still end up lacking. And I got a small hint from the interview that maybe some of the cool concepts haven't been translated super well to 3D, which is ultimately what the players experience.
I guess he can only do so much and we'll see if it's good enough. Here is the thing, I liked Allings original concept art for the Infernals, and his explanation as well of their inspiration in that interview with the girl. The latest teases though? Look more cartoony and has pushed my excitement in the opposite direction. I mean, look at the original Brute concept tease from Allen, then look at the most recent one. It's just worse. Same with the hero on the cube. The concept sketch originally looked so cool. Still cool now, but much less imo. I don't blame Allen, frost giant is probably trying to fit his idea into their artistic vision and uniform with the rest of stormgates art but I can't help but feel a bit sad, like there is missed potential. I disagree. When you zoom all those images out until the units are RTS sized, the final design is the best one. Although I agree that the original concept art definitely looked cooler and better. The new director has a good understanding of how to design units for an RTS camera. Models need to be somewhat smooth, blocky, and lacking in any detail that would become blurry when zoomed out. The shoulders and weapons are oversized so that you can tell what they are and when they're attacking. And the team colours pop very clearly. The current brute doesn't do any of that stuff. I guess we are all subject to our opinions though! But for me personally, it is quite literally the reverse order :p I think number 1 is the best, at the top, then middle is 2nd best, and the most polished i.e., 3rd concept tease is the worst. 3rd one just screams cartoon / PG rating to me.
I agree in terms of the actual art. But I think the final model is the one best suited to being translated into a model in the game. Considering this is one of the smaller units, when you're looking from top down, all you see are shoulders, swords, and team colours.
The other models have too much going on and aren't top heavy enough, it would be less clear if you had a group of 20 or 30 of them in one army. Also they look a bit *too* cool for a tier 1 grunt unit
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On December 27 2024 07:56 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2024 22:15 Fango wrote:On December 26 2024 20:40 ETisME wrote:
Look at their neutral creeps with shadowery demons, weird slimes, demons that are more ogre. Do we really think any two of them would fit the final Cutscene of chapter 1 and not be out of place entirely?
Surely the more creeps and tilesets they add to the game, the better matched they will be? The problem is they only have like two tilesets and 3 creeps in the game right now. All of the campaign we currently have, including cutscenes, is apparently getting remade anyway They currently have mad max-y scavengers which fit the desert wasteland, but the slimes and demons would be more suited to an alien world. WC3 did this so it seems like common sense. We know basically nothing about the lore other than that Stormgates are portals between worlds that allow demons to invade. Which does mean some mismatching would be consistent. They should have matched it at the start and if there’s a ln intentional mismatch due to lore, they would and should have kept it revealed at campaign (but still wouldn’t solve how weird it all looks) I look at it and think they are just throwing ln whatever models they drafted up, if these are the “worlds” then it doesn’t look like they fit in the semi serious tone they were (?) going for
Valid criticism, they've made it clear that things like maps, creeps, and tilesets were further down the line and most of what we got were default assets thrown together.
But it's not enough to say that in a random blog post when 99% of people are playing and watching the game won't read it.
The new art director did at least mention this being a problem, and said that the new 3v3 map is going to be the first one put through art passes before being released. With the goal being to finally show a polished vertical slice of what stormgate maps should look like.
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EPT
