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On April 19 2024 01:19 NonY wrote:
im not gonna go back and read every reply since my chat with artosis was posted but just to be clear, i do not hate SG or think it's really bad or have a doomer attitude about it. the latest test build was factually still very unfinished and they've got enough funds to guarantee a good amount of work on it still. whether the rest of the unimplemented content is good is a complete unknown. furthermore, you can't just make a starcraft clone and then randomize various design and gameplay elements and expect it to be good. so even if each individual departure from sc2 makes sense in a vacuum, does it all synergize into a good cohesive fun-to-play game? that remains to be seen. is there anything worrying about what we've seen so far? that's what i tried to address in my chat with artosis. a ton of it could end up being moot
next phase will give us a lot more to see (and it's under NDA so you wont hear anything about it) but we really have to wait at least until EA before we can really begin judging the gameplay and their design decision. at that point, everything will be roughly implemented. but their first implementation could misrepresent their vision/goals so we really need to give them a chance to iterate for a while. so i'd rather wait until 1.0 to give really heavy criticism and judgments.
that's pretty generous though so i think by winter, after we've seen some of their patches and more communication about their intent etc, we can start to form pretty strong opinions and decide if this is a game we're gonna keep playing no matter what else comes out (like a lot of us did with bw -> sc2) or if it's a game we're gonna play while we keep trying every new release to find "the one"
it's been difficult to discuss SG because the builds we've seen have a lot of placeholder things and missing things. so when you try to have a big picture view of the game, it can easily be totally off the mark. EA will be a much better era for discussing the game. i much prefer to have a live game where nothing is placeholder or unintentional. so i can fully judge the gameplay we're seeing and say "this is how the game is playing right now. here are some examples to demonstrate what im talking about. i think i'd have more fun or it'd be better if it played out differently in this specific way. here are suggestions on specific tweaks to get us closer to that."
was the video useful feedback for FGS? i really have no idea. honestly if my concerns really missed the mark, then im actually just teeing them up to hit a homerun with community sentiment when they get everything out to us in EA and it addresses all of my concerns or "proves me wrong". or maybe it was useful criticism and it gave them something to think about for the builds they're working on internally right now, and maybe it'll help them make a better EA release.
I don’t think we need a full 1.0 to know whether the game is on the right track.
At this point I just see it as a RTS with weak foundation.
they want to appeal to new RTS players but there is not enough thought behind the changes, e.g. the longer time to kill leading to clumps of units and boring engagements.
There are already many complaining it being too clicky focused, which will never go away in this type of RTS, which means they still failed to reach their broader audience.
Unit dynamics need a complete rework and the game needs to know what it wants to do. It’s not very fun to watch, there are plenty in sc2 never got to good level and still enjoy watching the games, or motivated some to get into the game.
I mean for comparison, just look at some starbow games at release, significantly more dynamic and interesting.
Not necessarily because it’s more familiar, it’s just better designed overall, from the economy, to unit design to production rates
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I think NonY is very spot on for the issue he brought up. I can totally see those issues being really bad for game play and balance. Not to say trying to get on the map during the open beta was a pain in the ass as vanguard.
We'll never know what's true state behind SG and what the true story unless someone comes out and tell us.
Personally I am generally worried about 2 things, the server architecture(the whole anti-cheat side of things), then the game design.
At this point, the security it showed in the current stage just feels really really bad, I would say if nothing is done to this front I would not waste my time even try the game out at all, it would all just be a waste of time.
Game design wise? So far something feels interesting, and lot of things can be tinkered with, but it feels super imbalanced at the moment last I played the game.
And the fact I cannot retreat after a fight just feels like they themselves didn't play or test the game........ I don't know..... it feels like....... yeah.... actually as I am writing this, it just feels like the game designer themselves doesn't play the game ..... at this point, this one is a bit too obvious to miss.
I was really hyped when stormgate was announced, also SG with all the industry figures associated with the studio.
But so far, I have not been spending a single dime on the game, and I do not feel good about the future of the game.
And this is just my personal view and how I feel about the project so far. I know many people who feels otherwise and vigorously defend Frost Giant. That's fine, and if you read my post this far, thank you! But, again just my 5 cents here.
And I hope this doesn't turn into a right or wrong debate, it would be better world if we can just express what we feel and doesn't have to have a decision to be made at this point, like NonY mentions over and over again, "I could be wrong". Which in fact I don't think I really know much of anything, other than what I have did and have an opinion about what I had access to.
I miss the days when I first got my hands on red alert 95, 98, AOE1, Starcraft, and Starcraft Brood War, CS 1.2, WOW, war3, dota, I feel like 10~20 years ago the games felt like magic, and really drew me in. And nowadays the new game release rarely has that same feeling at all. Maybe I am too old now :D
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On April 19 2024 11:22 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:
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I miss the days when I first got my hands on red alert 95, 98, AOE1, Starcraft, and Starcraft Brood War, CS 1.2, WOW, war3, dota, I feel like 10~20 years ago the games felt like magic, and really drew me in. And nowadays the new game release rarely has that same feeling at all. Maybe I am too old now :D
yes age a bit and the fact there is a plethora of other games to choose from compared to 20 years ago. not to speak of the amount if information gathered before even starting a game.
needless to say any of the games mentioned above would crash and burn when released today, even with state of the art graphics.
and frankly the sooner the majority of players accept this simple fact, the sooner this type of "hype marketing" can go away
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On April 20 2024 00:59 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 11:22 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:
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I miss the days when I first got my hands on red alert 95, 98, AOE1, Starcraft, and Starcraft Brood War, CS 1.2, WOW, war3, dota, I feel like 10~20 years ago the games felt like magic, and really drew me in. And nowadays the new game release rarely has that same feeling at all. Maybe I am too old now :D
yes age a bit and the fact there is a plethora of other games to choose from compared to 20 years ago. not to speak of the amount if information gathered before even starting a game. needless to say any of the games mentioned above would crash and burn when released today, even with state of the art graphics. and frankly the sooner the majority of players accept this simple fact, the sooner this type of "hype marketing" can go away
Yeah, totally, so I really donno how much our opinion really matters much in that sense, it sort of will depends on what the kids like these days, is like we are a bit too old for the "kids toy" in a sense.
Kind of have to really love the toy at this point. So yeah, in that sense, it is really somewhat depends on larger player base and who does this appeals to.
I don't think I can say I have a better idea of how the true market is in some sense. :D
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Blending a destroyed building with a non-destroyed one to make variants is certainly a shortcut but it produces some unreal looking stuff in this short demo alone. Will it work with a less regular shape? The example uses a very regularized cylinder shape with repeating patterns on the balconies and other elements.
They didn't show any actual in-game finished tileset components in the blog, which is something for a design blog. I looked at some responses and people think that piece of concept art is in-game. This happens often.
Its a good style in the concept art. Maybe they'll get to it with a dedicated effort they talked about recently. To be honest this type of preview feels like their original showcase, back to pointing to concept art. Up to this point they have some kind of problem with executing the concept art stuff in-game. It'd be interesting to hear them talk through recreating the style of the concepts but this is more of a talk about the production steps.
I don't really believe the last blog which mentioned purposefully not executing the visual style until they know exactly how to design a map's layout. They are really in an ideal scenario to show a vertical slice and nail the look at least in a small part but it doesn't seem to be either a priority or possible.
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On April 20 2024 07:38 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2024 00:59 uummpaa wrote:On April 19 2024 11:22 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:
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I miss the days when I first got my hands on red alert 95, 98, AOE1, Starcraft, and Starcraft Brood War, CS 1.2, WOW, war3, dota, I feel like 10~20 years ago the games felt like magic, and really drew me in. And nowadays the new game release rarely has that same feeling at all. Maybe I am too old now :D
yes age a bit and the fact there is a plethora of other games to choose from compared to 20 years ago. not to speak of the amount if information gathered before even starting a game. needless to say any of the games mentioned above would crash and burn when released today, even with state of the art graphics. and frankly the sooner the majority of players accept this simple fact, the sooner this type of "hype marketing" can go away Yeah, totally, so I really donno how much our opinion really matters much in that sense, it sort of will depends on what the kids like these days, is like we are a bit too old for the "kids toy" in a sense. Kind of have to really love the toy at this point. So yeah, in that sense, it is really somewhat depends on larger player base and who does this appeals to. I don't think I can say I have a better idea of how the true market is in some sense. :D
its less that we old folks dont matter, its more that there are so many little groups of preferences due to the huge selection of games to choose from, even the "kids" are very heterogen in that regard.
i think ppl in their 30s and above are not too bad of a target since they usually have some of their income left at the end of the month can spend it on games, but to make a game reach WoL number i dont think you can (or should) plan with that for a new ip but well see
and whoever knows what the "true market" really (which is nobody) is will be a very wealthy person ^^
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Quite honestly after looking into some of Kevin Dong's past interviews, and the new interviews.
And how last open beta went, why would I even care about this game anymore, the fact he has such a strong opinion about free units being whatever. Good luck to those who want the free unit spam that plays out over hour long and getting frustrated about the game.
After some thought, I realized the SC2 and StormGate had the same feeling after playing, RAGING at the design, and wants to uninstall the game right away.
It doesn't have the feeling of, interesting what the other guy did, I am craving to play another one to get better.
I am out of this thread for good. Good luck you folks.
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He doesn't say free units are "whatever". He said free units in SC2 were problematic for various different reasons and it doesn't mean all free units are necessarily bad, which is the correct approach unless you want to have a game full of samey, boring units with "safe" mechanics.
The only problematic free unit implementation in Stormgate was early game gaunt infest and now that is removed and early game fiends can only be spawned through a spell of a spellcaster unit.
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Also aren't the removing gaunt infest in the next update, and making it a spell from that new caster? Monk, in the interviews I saw, didn't seem "whatever" about fiends/free units, and was careful about making them not too powerful.
Watch Grubby's video on free units - he comes in with his strong opinion that free units are bad/always bad, and by the end concludes that no, they can be balanced.
I also found Grubby's video a little funny when Monk says (paraphrasing): "it feels like half the War3 heroes have summons" for free units.
And then Grubby says "no that's not right" and counts them off, and indeed 12/24 have a summon ability. He wanted to keep it at 9/24 because ultimates "didn't count" for some reason. (Dreadlord, Pit Lord, and maybe Warden were the ones with ultimates who spawn "free" units?")
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I can understand why SC2 players are cautious about free units, and they're right to be. But it's boggling that some can't see the massive differences between SC2's free units and infests. And that people can listen to Monk list the detailed reasons SC2 went wrong and think he's 'whatever' towards the
Like if nothing else, Swarmhosts and Broodlords wouldn't have been busted if they spawned 0-0 lings instead of locusts. Let alone if they had to actually kill units to spawn them, gaunts weren't just idle free unit generators.
Even good players like Beasty have been completely against infest on the basis that SC2 free units were bad.
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You guys all have valid point, my point is I got burned really bad with the taste of what was produced by SC2, and years later. After long time I have not really touched SC2, most of what traumatized the SC2 experience was somewhat forgiven, and yet being presented by open beta of Storm gate, the soup tasted exactly the same, and the direction they are trying to go for, just gives me the bad taste and reliving the trauma, and even a worse experience.
That's my point, I don't have trust in this guy. I see what he produces. It's somewhat mind boggling to me that he let this happen in such a way even with private testing. That's mind boggling to me. You can argue with the words. That's your choice.
He can say how he want to present the idea, but to me, his design is just traumatizing experience. It really is. I have bsaically come to the realization why should I waste my time trusting the guy at all.
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I mean, again, you guys have valid points, I am just expressing how I feel about the game and how it's being designed, and yeah, just a potential customer says NO to the game. My personal decision, you don't have to agree with me at all.
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nothing wrong with not liking any game for any reason, obviously it can be very frustrating to see a promising game go in a direction one doesnt like
but i rather give devs the benefit of the doubt that they can make stuff like free units work, at least significantly better than sc2 did.
rather give it a try in early stages than randomly excluding certain unit types for good cause of some bad apples in the past.
that and i kinda enjoy thinking how i would make units like that work ^^
but again, nothing wrong with beeing "out" of a game
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
I think within the context of WC3, summons aren’t really free units as mana management is quite a bit component of that game. Plus they give exp to the opposition heroes if you kill them.
There’s some tradeoffs to them, you may want mana for other abilities and you don’t want to feed opponent heroes either.
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On April 24 2024 04:38 WombaT wrote:
I think within the context of WC3, summons aren’t really free units as mana management is quite a bit component of that game. Plus they give exp to the opposition heroes if you kill them.
There’s some tradeoffs to them, you may want mana for other abilities and you don’t want to feed opponent heroes either.
Even more commitment/investment in that game, like committing to a specific hero and thus strategy. It leads to some interesting early and mid game play patterns where the free unit strategies are on a time limit to do meaningful damage. Definitely not something like waves of free units crashing upon defensive positions.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On April 24 2024 05:48 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 04:38 WombaT wrote:
I think within the context of WC3, summons aren’t really free units as mana management is quite a bit component of that game. Plus they give exp to the opposition heroes if you kill them.
There’s some tradeoffs to them, you may want mana for other abilities and you don’t want to feed opponent heroes either. Even more commitment/investment in that game, like committing to a specific hero and thus strategy. It leads to some interesting early and mid game play patterns where the free unit strategies are on a time limit to do meaningful damage. Definitely not something like waves of free units crashing upon defensive positions.
Yeah I think ‘free units = bad’ as a rule of thumb tends to be almost solely based in the horrors of HoTS swarm hosts.
Which I mean is understandable as that was shite.
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On April 24 2024 04:38 WombaT wrote:
I think within the context of WC3, summons aren’t really free units as mana management is quite a bit component of that game. Plus they give exp to the opposition heroes if you kill them.
There’s some tradeoffs to them, you may want mana for other abilities and you don’t want to feed opponent heroes either.
The same is kinda true in Stormgate is it not? Infernal can produce 'free' units when they get kills, but Vanguard gets free upgrades for killing things. Both races get benefits from killing opponent or neutral units, and Vanguard gets direct benefit of Infernal producing easy to kill units
Imagine if Colossus would level up from killing locusts, zergs would never even think of building swarm hosts.
I actually think that Vanguard veterency is way stronger than Infernal's infest. Mainly because it actually scales, spawning a 0-0 ling for each kill doesn't have much impact past the early game unless you're harassing workers.
Yet the community is 10x harder on infest than veterency because they endured hell in sc2 (fun fact, terran in sc2 originally had veterency, it was too strong and messy to make into the final game)
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The problem with free units in Stormgate right now is there are supposed to be tradeoffs, but the tradeoffs are in conflict with each other. Versus Vanguard, Veterancy is supposed to encourage Infernal to only take engagements where they think they can kill the Vanguard army and snowball. But Infernals get Animus out of each unit death so there's no real cost to just fighting all the time. Versus Infernal it's just whoever snowballs anyway so you just fight all the time.
Which leads to a big problem with Infest as a concept: the free units are only generated when opponent units die, so there's no risk of feeding Veterancy or Animus since if you lose the battle you wouldn't have fed a bunch of free units anyway. The only way I see Infest be an interesting mechanic is if it's a top bar global AoE spell that costs Animus and it affects YOUR units, not enemy units. It would be up to the player to decide if it's worth spending Animus on a battle to potentially snowball, or make a bad call and lose a battle having fed a bunch of Veterancy or Animus. Good calls would generate momentum and potentially Animus from dead free units and bad calls would feed tons of Animus and Veterancy (but you will probably gain your Animus back, or even make Animus).
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EPT
