EPTStormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 110
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2589 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7030 Posts
To the Macro/ Micro part: There is a whole genre dedicated to macro games. City builders and such like Anno are very popular and have a decent fanbase. What makes macro in an RTS like SC2 so unwanted is the pressure it puts on the player to nail everything in the shortest amount of time, not the mechanics in itself. In Anno for example you have pretty much all the time in the world to make the perfect production chain and people love it. And ofc everything that is purely repetitive and feels like a chore doesn't really add to the "fun" part of the game. To the 3rd race: I'd love some kind of plant/ living organism kinda race where you like build a big blob and this blob has like 8 supply connected and then can be used to evolve this blob to 4 zealot'ish, 2 marine'ish and 2 medic'ish units that stay connected. Like a kraken kind of. And counterplay would either be get rid of the "arms" or try to snipe the "brain" An army would then consist of 8 big blobs with various arms connected and you can split up the big blobs for some flanking/ skirmishing. Now you all are gonna say "but we don't want deathballs!" and you would be partially right of course. But I think it's kinda a cool concept I just came up with and wanted to share anyway :D | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On April 15 2024 22:17 Harris1st wrote: Yeah I just skip their comments entirely by now. To the Macro/ Micro part: There is a whole genre dedicated to macro games. City builders and such like Anno are very popular and have a decent fanbase. What makes macro in an RTS like SC2 so unwanted is the pressure it puts on the player to nail everything in the shortest amount of time, not the mechanics in itself. In Anno for example you have pretty much all the time in the world to make the perfect production chain and people love it. And ofc everything that is purely repetitive and feels like a chore doesn't really add to the "fun" part of the game. To the 3rd race: I'd love some kind of plant/ living organism kinda race where you like build a big blob and this blob has like 8 supply connected and then can be used to evolve this blob to 4 zealot'ish, 2 marine'ish and 2 medic'ish units that stay connected. Like a kraken kind of. And counterplay would either be get rid of the "arms" or try to snipe the "brain" An army would then consist of 8 big blobs with various arms connected and you can split up the big blobs for some flanking/ skirmishing. Now you all are gonna say "but we don't want deathballs!" and you would be partially right of course. But I think it's kinda a cool concept I just came up with and wanted to share anyway :D I’d dig that if someone made a PvE game and say you’re trying to fight Eldritch gods or something. Break em down! Not sure if I’d be game for it to be in SG as it’d be so different but it’s a cool idea | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2589 Posts
I think if a mechanic like that could be designed and balanced well, it could provide for interesting decision making and action all over the board, with both players looking for efficient supply routes and for ways to harass their opponents' supply lines and take advantage of timing windows when they know they're under-supplied. | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
The only agreeable comments that don't get some shame are like the above posts. Those that return to abstract stuff about macro and micro. I like this stuff probably as much as anyone. But there is a forcing function towards this stuff continually now. At the start of development it is 'hype', but now it is darker because its functionally useful to get people talking in this toothless blue sky way. Check out this moment from Grubby's stormgate review. He's talking about what he likes and doesn't like about the game and starts talking about the visuals. "(Graphics) The quality I think is so-so. Could be better. Its readable but not very beautiful." At this point Frost Giant's marketing is hanging out in his chat and interjects: "Lots of the game is still early as far as art, including placeholder assets" Grubby responds: "Yea I saw some placeholder assets. But I don't expect a full rework anymore, right Frost Giant?" Then there's silence. There are very few people capable of doing that and fucking good show Grubby. Because its better for everyone. And this was 2 months ago, he was speaking out of a matter of sense. At this point, we know from the FINANCIAL CONTEXT that reworks which answer the nature of his criticism are not possible. Of course a placeholder catapult will be replaced, they might re-sculpt a marine, but the time for significant visual rework is over. But you saw how they tried to abstract away the details of his point in real time right? (You can watch Grubby's recent video about being yanked around by the WC3: Reforged team for more emotional context to this.) Details being noticed in the context of their financial situation is the main form of serious criticism now. It genuinely matters that they've had a hard lit Unreal engine shadow pointing in the wrong direction for a year. And it matters that they have 6 months to correct it and a bunch of other things. That shit is hard to point out. It is brief, painful and doesn't hold people's attention for long. I close some of that distance with jokes, but I don't think its right to ignore it. Grouping this with Jimmy who speaks to himself in riddles (bless him) — is intentional and shows the bad intent of super mod. If you say your point as a joke its 'unhinged'. if you use detail its a 'vendetta'. If you cite facts its 'misinformation'. This mod added a 'MISINFORMATION' tag to the official StormGate reddit to tag shit with. How bad do you think he wanted to start stamping it on people's foreheads that were critical of the money grab? It is absolutely a valuable observation to mention their entire team intended to communicate more with the community then stopped. I'll say it as a joke if I want to. It is also a valuable observation to note how historically weird that a 35 mil company wants to represent themselves with a particularly nasty guy who gets negative downvotes to the point of being hidden on his own reddit. For a social RTS I think its meaningful that they can't run the reddit properly, since its their first social space. They should have a vision for it which doesn't need incessant verbal molding. There is a classic moderation 'problem' they are dealing with. It requires very high effort to run big mixed use social spaces. They have never mentioned it seriously despite wanting to be the first Social RTS. Everyone will credit this ex-Blizzard team for many things they did not do while in charge of SC2 such as invent zerglings, zealots, etc. But one thing they did do is let the social element of SC2 burn like a wildfire. To this day you can find insane racist pamphleteers in the general chat. You have completely abandoned social club features with 50k members signed up for the 'Husky Fan Club'. The Arcade carries a heavy burden of social missteps. So I do think it is out of line to mention their social approach pre-game as an aptitude check. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
Happy for you though Or sorry for your loss | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On April 16 2024 01:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: What I have always wanted in macro was a game that dealt with the concept of supply lines. I'm fascinated by the concept of supply lines, and I've never played a game that tried to implement them even though I think they could create a really fun dynamic if they were implemented well. I always imagined you could have workers assigned to provide supplies that would have to walk back and forth across a path between your army and a supply source, with some penalty like an attack/def debuff for troops that go without resupply for some period of time. I think if a mechanic like that could be designed and balanced well, it could provide for interesting decision making and action all over the board, with both players looking for efficient supply routes and for ways to harass their opponents' supply lines and take advantage of timing windows when they know they're under-supplied. I think it’d be really cool if someone could make that work, but I’ve never seen it personally even really attempted in a PvE game. Where I think it’s much easier to do those pretty granular, attention to detail kind of intricate bits of tactical play. When humans are involved it kinda ends up as an arms race where aptitude goes up and up, whereas you can kind of gate things to a reasonable level of demand in a single player game. It’s still a hell of a lot of my dream which is a team-based mashup of 4X level scope, right down to small-scale skirmishes a la a StarCraft where you’re cooperating at different levels of command across a big persistent theatre of war :p | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
I mean personally maybe sans the specific Spartak stuff. They’ve been pretty transparent if memory serves re that link, and I’ve found generally try to give a perspective from the other side of the ledger or correct the incorrect. Not so much ‘don’t say anything negative about the game’ at all | ||
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_Spartak_
Turkey442 Posts
This mod added a 'MISINFORMATION' tag to the official StormGate reddit to tag shit with. There is no "misinformation" flair. But mods can add a custom flair to posts. This is the post MegaBuster is referring to if anyone is curious:https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1bw2bvp/stormgate_joining_some_web3ai_company/ You can see and decide for yourself whether that was a logical moderation action for a post that was obviously wrong and misleading or was MegaBuster misrepresenting things again because he had an unresolved issue with a former FG dev years ago and this is the way he is choosing to deal with it. | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
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_Spartak_
Turkey442 Posts
On March 18 2024 03:19 MegaBuster wrote: Not just personal — I've also been hired by some of them at Blizzard to try and fix a situation where they contracted 20 StarCraft modders for promises of maintaining their platform and some wages that would have been appropriate in the 1920s. They didn't keep their promises! Scrapheap and mistreatment, but passion! They are passionate! Looking forward to their expertise and deep spiritual know-how with custom maps and modding that they've promised! | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria378 Posts
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_Spartak_
Turkey442 Posts
On April 16 2024 03:04 MegaBuster wrote: Everyone I know still works at Frost Giant you misinformation spreader. I thought your problem was with TorcH mainly because you seemed to be obsessed with him. Sorry. Let me correct it. You are misrepresenting things because you had an unresolved issue with | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
Still you continue to pull out tiny details from any substantial critique to dispute them and stop the discussion as you do dozens of time per day across reddit, discord, and now here. I am not talking about doing any kind of exorcism on Jimmy. He is your ideal sparring partner to jam all discussion forever. I have never met TorcH despite many times idling outside his house in my Chevy Tahoe while putting on makeup. He's just a hilarious example of the kind of blue-sky ideals, spending on nothing, then escaping behind the smoke screen of abstraction that eventually the whole team may participate in. His hypergamous jump to the Pokemon company to speak esports nonsense, now directed towards the pokemon-dueling careers of children, is also a very funny ending. | ||
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_Spartak_
Turkey442 Posts
Still you continue to pull out tiny details from any substantial critique to dispute them and stop the discussion as you do dozens of time per day across reddit, discord, and now here. Yeah, maybe I would have a chance to do that if you stopped derailing the thread with unhinged rants and there was any discussion to be had in the first place. Alas. | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
On April 16 2024 02:05 MegaBuster wrote: If you say your point as a joke its 'unhinged'. if you use detail its a 'vendetta'. If you cite facts its 'misinformation'. ah yes I've made a joke. | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
There's a through line with my experience with how these types of org will use community members for work and I find it abhorrent when they make them tank for them on a moral level, I've seen it before. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18187 Posts
On April 16 2024 01:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: What I have always wanted in macro was a game that dealt with the concept of supply lines. I'm fascinated by the concept of supply lines, and I've never played a game that tried to implement them even though I think they could create a really fun dynamic if they were implemented well. I always imagined you could have workers assigned to provide supplies that would have to walk back and forth across a path between your army and a supply source, with some penalty like an attack/def debuff for troops that go without resupply for some period of time. I think if a mechanic like that could be designed and balanced well, it could provide for interesting decision making and action all over the board, with both players looking for efficient supply routes and for ways to harass their opponents' supply lines and take advantage of timing windows when they know they're under-supplied. It was either one of the Settlers or one of the Colonizations that had supply lines. It wasn't very fun, but was an interesting mechanic for a city builder. I don't think an RTS with supply lines would be remotely fun, but I hope someone can prove me wrong! | ||
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