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On April 13 2024 04:58 Waxangel wrote:Good to see there's still pretty massive changes being made between iterations. Not sure how I feel about Tier 1 core casters as a general concept tho 
I really like the idea but unsure about infest still.
I like the concept of being able to do cool/powerful things kinda early, if you want, without following a very linear path up a tech tree.
Remains to be seen what starting with the hexen is gonna look/feel like but all these updates seem very exciting. With the third race being added, as well, it's pretty hype.
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On April 13 2024 05:48 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 05:19 MegaBuster wrote:
Why does that thing have a completely male phenotype have an old lady hag's voice?
If they wanted to make you have jacked muscle lady demon units they forgot some anatomy pieces and proper coordination for even that.
Also now the whole demon tier 1 is voodoo aesthetic - hags with staves limping around doing swamp magic and troll axe-thrower things in tribal masks, pulling in the classic problematic blizzard trope of voodoo characters. (Trolls, Nazeebo, Gabriel Tosh) They should have caught all this racial encoding. Man you’re a ray of sunshine when it comes to this game eh? I don’t look at that unit and think the weird demon creature is especially masculine/feminine, it’s just a ‘thing’ As the Overmind/Abathur and most Zerg characters outside of Kerrigan are pretty gender ambiguous, if they have one at all You might have a point on Blizzard/subsequently and how they do the voodoo aesthetic to be fair
this isn't a gender conformity comment, I said a LeanBeefPatty female bodybuilder monster would be novel but it doesn't have the right pieces. Its got boulder shoulders and only male bits. it also looks young but has an old lady voice
if anything its representing gender ambiguity as demonic which is a classic trope
they cited the Mansifeld interview quota early on to get away from the narrowness of their perspective and in response to Blizzard's trial at the time, but they didn't hire anyone in any position who could do that
if even you are anti-woke (SHAME) there's real punishment for not having a range of perspectives. StarCraft actually scored early on in games with an awesome black character in Duran but they tossed him away for vodooo caricature Tosh. (Jim RAYNOR I have a made a vodoo doll of you!)
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Northern Ireland26761 Posts
On April 13 2024 05:51 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 04:58 Waxangel wrote:Good to see there's still pretty massive changes being made between iterations. Not sure how I feel about Tier 1 core casters as a general concept tho I really like the idea but unsure about infest still. I like the concept of being able to do cool/powerful things kinda early, if you want, without following a very linear path up a tech tree. Remains to be seen what starting with the hexen is gonna look/feel like but all these updates seem very exciting. With the third race being added, as well, it's pretty hype.
I like the core idea for sure, it’s just tricky to balance that kind of mechanic and I think we’ve already seen a bit of Infernal volatility around infest. It can kick in and really swing things, or not and the opposite happens, but I like the core idea of having a mechanic that actively rewards skirmishing and aggression with tangible benefits, versus the more traditional power scaling via eco/army/tech buildup.
I’m interested to see what the third faction look and play like. One thing I do think FG have done pretty well so far is make the two factions we’ve seen really play quite differently. I think there’s a bit more work in aesthetic tweaks but they’ve said that themselves.
So what niche the third race fits I’m pretty intrigued. I’d love to see something (relatively) novel, or at least uncommon in focus. Realistically so many RTS games have come out over the years have explored basically every kind of stylistic/tactical distinction a faction can have has at least been tried. So I’m not expecting a reinvention of the wheel!
Failing that just based on how the other two currently operate, I think the third faction will probably have a similar niche to BW Protoss. Smaller numbers, beefy boys and some hard-hitting technological toys. I think it’d be interesting to have a very finesse-heavy, spellcaster-dependent faction alternatively, I mean taken to relative extremes. Spells for days, almost supplanting more regular attacks.
If Vanguard especially have a lot of stock, basic micro at the core of their gameplay, stutter-stepping, focus-fire, splitting etc somewhat akin to SC2 Terran, I think it’d be interesting to have a race focused hardcore on microing casters and using their abilities judiciously in a tactical sense.
Alternatively it might fucking suck, but as far as I’m aware FG’s UI QoL tweaks make casting while multiple casters are selected far easier than even SC2 did, so it might be viable to do.
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I don't see the game surviving very long. That said, we'll get to see what Didier can do outside of Blizzard.
And, we'll get some more Frank Klepacki tracks as well.
With the "experience level" of guys like this it gives the game a Chicago Bears Super Bowl Team reunion feel.
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Reading their dev blog update gives me confidence they are taking a good approach towards development. It's not the flashiest approach but very logical with resource allocations that have both immediate and add-on benefits.
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So what niche the third race fits I’m pretty intrigued. I’d love to see something (relatively) novel, or at least uncommon in focus. Realistically so many RTS games have come out over the years have explored basically every kind of stylistic/tactical distinction a faction can have has at least been tried. So I’m not expecting a reinvention of the wheel!
I'm not expecting a reinvention but by no means have we seen things fully explored. It's very hard to see what's missing until it enters the picture.
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United States33599 Posts
On April 13 2024 05:19 MegaBuster wrote:
Why does that thing have a completely male phenotype have an old lady hag's voice?
If they wanted to make you have jacked muscle lady demon units they forgot some anatomy pieces and proper coordination for even that.
I don't think it's that weird compared to some of the more 'monstrous' witch/crone designs you see in DnD, Witcher, and other fantasy games. I don't think you have to slap some saggy breasts on it to make the concept work
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Can we move on from the stupid hag? We get it, MegaBuster likes his crones with thin arms and saggy breasts.
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Northern Ireland26761 Posts
On April 13 2024 07:20 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +So what niche the third race fits I’m pretty intrigued. I’d love to see something (relatively) novel, or at least uncommon in focus. Realistically so many RTS games have come out over the years have explored basically every kind of stylistic/tactical distinction a faction can have has at least been tried. So I’m not expecting a reinvention of the wheel! I'm not expecting a reinvention but by no means have we seen things fully explored. It's very hard to see what's missing until it enters the picture.
Yeah but I think this more applies to exploration of whole new genres or mishmashes in gaming than something you can pull off within a genre decades old.
People are still coming up with novel twists on how to do FPS, but it’s been a hell of a while since I’ve seen a wholly novel weapon or ability. Not impossible by any means!
In terms of faction flavour I’m not seeing too much room for something truly novel. Swarmy factions, tanky ones relying on power units, glass canon ones who’ve a ton of firepower, skirmishing ones who rely on hit and run tactics etc. But you are correct, just because we can’t conceive of what something new looks like, doesn’t mean it’s not there to be discovered
My suggestion of having a hardcore spellcasting race isn’t something I’ve personally seen in an RTS, especially not running alongside more conventional factions, but even that I imagine someone has tried
Not a MOBA player but I think a hero like Invoker is quite interesting in how it deviates from the general number of spells and abilities, so an RTS faction in a similar vein was my idea (that has probably already been done as I say)
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Northern Ireland26761 Posts
On April 13 2024 07:30 LunarC wrote:
Can we move on from the stupid hag? We get it, MegaBuster likes his crones with thin arms and saggy breasts.
Who doesn’t pine for a big titty goth hag gf?
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Nobody would have opted for the statuette of a macho man witcher crone as a kickstarter reward instead of the mech, saggies or not.
Think they blasted by the fun gross of Zerg to things that are very unappealing to embody.
I am caught by how the voice acting performances don't fit into a whole, the marines are still Heinlein hyper violent dudes despite that not being the story as its presented right now. Although its tough to say since the eNovella crashed my eReader when I was reading about how some random character loves someone or something.
The hag seems to fit that same kind of process where its more important to touch 2-3 Starcraft/Warcraft sources then have something that serves the narrative, so you get the saggy-less Hexen with a Zerg Queen voiceover and shaman animations. But what is it? The demon invasion starts with people being hit by phantom skulls/eyes of kilrog? Then the voodoo men with mouths they can't close turn the creeps into little alien parasite zergling larvae?
Then how are those zergling monsters with their gaping mouths nursed to adulthood when the HEXEN IS MISSING SOMETHING THAT POURS MILK INTO THEIR BODIES. STUPID GAME
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this is 100% written by an A.I.
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On April 13 2024 00:47 _Spartak_ wrote:Pretty much all of them with some exceptions. Lancer is actually one of the most interesting tier 1 melee units I have ever seen in an RTS. Definitely more interesting than a zealot or grunt/footman, which would be the closest comparisons in Blizzard RTSes. The fact that you brought it up as if it was a bad example makes me think we are still not talking about the same thing. Show nested quote +And no I am not just talking about the visual. You can custom build how the terror tank specialise in. I don't really find that interesting. It is just another way of building your composition just like building X unit instead of Y. It is not bad per se to have such a mechanic but it doesn't make the unit interesting or fun to play with on its own. Show nested quote +Watch some zerospace matches and you will see there's significantly more dynamic engagements throughout the game.
I have watched quite a lot of ZS matches. It just feels like once you watched one, you watched them all. Depending on what you mean by "dynamic", it might be described as such. There is constant action. But it is all about low stakes action happening throughout the game and all battles look similar. Samey units fighting each other in samey battles.
More interesting than a zealot is a really surprise take. Zealot shield mechanics and the fact that it has upgrade weapon/armour and a late game upgrade make them extremely versatile. Zergling with speed and crackling and banelings potential make them way more interesting.
I don't see why you think the engagements look low stake, or repetitive, the merc and top bar ability alone makes every engagements quite different. And there's actual powerful siege units and AOE units that use massive debuff instead of DMG for zoning.
especially compared to stormgate where most engagements are simply quite a drag with their intention to increase time to kill, becoming a long drawn out engagements with low amount of interesting micro happening.
But nvm I will just leave it, just realised this isn't the other thread with zerospace in it
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Northern Ireland26761 Posts
On April 13 2024 09:51 KingzTig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 00:47 _Spartak_ wrote:Which unit in SG you find meets that criteria? Lancer vs grunt? Scouts?
Pretty much all of them with some exceptions. Lancer is actually one of the most interesting tier 1 melee units I have ever seen in an RTS. Definitely more interesting than a zealot or grunt/footman, which would be the closest comparisons in Blizzard RTSes. The fact that you brought it up as if it was a bad example makes me think we are still not talking about the same thing. And no I am not just talking about the visual. You can custom build how the terror tank specialise in. I don't really find that interesting. It is just another way of building your composition just like building X unit instead of Y. It is not bad per se to have such a mechanic but it doesn't make the unit interesting or fun to play with on its own. Watch some zerospace matches and you will see there's significantly more dynamic engagements throughout the game.
I have watched quite a lot of ZS matches. It just feels like once you watched one, you watched them all. Depending on what you mean by "dynamic", it might be described as such. There is constant action. But it is all about low stakes action happening throughout the game and all battles look similar. Samey units fighting each other in samey battles. More interesting than a zealot is a really surprise take. Zealot shield mechanics and the fact that it has upgrade weapon/armour and a late game upgrade make them extremely versatile. Zergling with speed and crackling and banelings potential make them way more interesting. I don't see why you think the engagements look low stake, or repetitive, the merc and top bar ability alone makes every engagements quite different. And there's actual powerful siege units and AOE units that use massive debuff instead of DMG for zoning. especially compared to stormgate where most engagements are simply quite a drag with their intention to increase time to kill, becoming a long drawn out engagements with low amount of interesting micro happening.
This doesn’t feel fair at all. Zealots are interesting because you can make them faster and upgrade them? Zerglings are more interesting because you can make them faster?
As I’ve previously said, and one can scroll up a bit these basic units can make things interesting depending on how you can utilise them versus more high tech units. I think all RTS games need simple, core units to really work. If you have interactions like mine drags or dropping on tanks, even better!
But this seems a ridiculous criticism. Zealot shields are basically not even a factor in SC2. Probably the only units where shields are actually impactful are oracles poking and recharging before going again , and Archons who are very beefy shield wise but nuked by EMPs. In BW the shield mechanic really isn’t super prominent either. You can poke a bit with initial dragoons in PvT and retreat them before HP damage is taken, outside of that interaction, or a panic shield battery versus a committed all in Protoss units having split shield/HP is really not that impactful on the game.
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Northern Ireland26761 Posts
On April 13 2024 08:25 RogerChillingworth wrote:
this is 100% written by an A.I.
I’d prefer that to be the case than the alternative of an unhinged human anyway
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On April 13 2024 04:58 Waxangel wrote:Good to see there's still pretty massive changes being made between iterations. Not sure how I feel about Tier 1 core casters as a general concept tho
If you go back a few pages people were talking for a while about making the game play like a moba, and now they're straight up starting players with a spellcaster.
I think it would be a good advancement on SC2 tbh, you get action on the map and something to do straight away, without doing the LoTV move of 12 worker starts.
The only scary thing is the sc2 Queen syndrome, but fortunately the game is in such an early state it shouldn't go down that route of making said spellcaster a band aid counter to everything.
If the sc2 team could go back they'd probably change some fundamental things so they wouldn't have had to.
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Tim also mentions a bit in the blog about new tile sets and environmental effects. Working on apocalyptic settings, destroyed cities, wastelands, monsoon and lightning effects, dark cycles etc.
Hopefully they showcase some of those when they can and silence the 'bad graphics' crowd. Although from a development standpoint it makes no sense to get that stuff out there yet.
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Northern Ireland26761 Posts
On April 13 2024 10:17 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 04:58 Waxangel wrote:Good to see there's still pretty massive changes being made between iterations. Not sure how I feel about Tier 1 core casters as a general concept tho If you go back a few pages people were talking for a while about making the game play like a moba, and now they're straight up starting players with a spellcaster. I think it would be a good advancement on SC2 tbh, you get action on the map and something to do straight away, without doing the LoTV move of 12 worker starts. The only scary thing is the sc2 Queen syndrome, but fortunately the game is in such an early state it shouldn't go down that route of making said spellcaster a band aid counter to everything. If the sc2 team could go back they'd probably change some fundamental things so they wouldn't have had to.
Yeah I think from what little was revealed it’s more to augment offense and doesn’t necessarily stack, so hopefully you avoid the Queen being such a defensive bulwark scenario.
Also as yet they haven’t done something like warpgate, which is positive. I’m honestly impressed by how good SC2 has been and is despite kind of running with these things I’d consider pretty core design flaws.
If Stormgate can sidestep them from the off I’m pretty positive
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On April 13 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 09:51 KingzTig wrote:On April 13 2024 00:47 _Spartak_ wrote:Which unit in SG you find meets that criteria? Lancer vs grunt? Scouts?
Pretty much all of them with some exceptions. Lancer is actually one of the most interesting tier 1 melee units I have ever seen in an RTS. Definitely more interesting than a zealot or grunt/footman, which would be the closest comparisons in Blizzard RTSes. The fact that you brought it up as if it was a bad example makes me think we are still not talking about the same thing. And no I am not just talking about the visual. You can custom build how the terror tank specialise in. I don't really find that interesting. It is just another way of building your composition just like building X unit instead of Y. It is not bad per se to have such a mechanic but it doesn't make the unit interesting or fun to play with on its own. Watch some zerospace matches and you will see there's significantly more dynamic engagements throughout the game.
I have watched quite a lot of ZS matches. It just feels like once you watched one, you watched them all. Depending on what you mean by "dynamic", it might be described as such. There is constant action. But it is all about low stakes action happening throughout the game and all battles look similar. Samey units fighting each other in samey battles. More interesting than a zealot is a really surprise take. Zealot shield mechanics and the fact that it has upgrade weapon/armour and a late game upgrade make them extremely versatile. Zergling with speed and crackling and banelings potential make them way more interesting. I don't see why you think the engagements look low stake, or repetitive, the merc and top bar ability alone makes every engagements quite different. And there's actual powerful siege units and AOE units that use massive debuff instead of DMG for zoning. especially compared to stormgate where most engagements are simply quite a drag with their intention to increase time to kill, becoming a long drawn out engagements with low amount of interesting micro happening. This doesn’t feel fair at all. Zealots are interesting because you can make them faster and upgrade them? Zerglings are more interesting because you can make them faster? As I’ve previously said, and one can scroll up a bit these basic units can make things interesting depending on how you can utilise them versus more high tech units. I think all RTS games need simple, core units to really work. If you have interactions like mine drags or dropping on tanks, even better! But this seems a ridiculous criticism. Zealot shields are basically not even a factor in SC2. Probably the only units where shields are actually impactful are oracles poking and recharging before going again , and Archons who are very beefy shield wise but nuked by EMPs. In BW the shield mechanic really isn’t super prominent either. You can poke a bit with initial dragoons in PvT and retreat them before HP damage is taken, outside of that interaction, or a panic shield battery versus a committed all in Protoss units having split shield/HP is really not that impactful on the game.
Basic units don't operate on their own, this I definitely agree, and I would extend basic units design is related to the core mechanics of the game, more than just unit interaction.
Shield on zealots are important because that's how ghost shred them, and how shield battery interact with them. (And shield DMG)
Another units that 100% benefit from the shield mechanics is blink stalkers. and of course archons.
You might think shield mechanics isn't impactful, but shield is the only thing that can regenerate on protoss. It's the new default point for them every new engagement. I would have loved sentries being able to restore shield in AOE with a "siege mode", making them more relevant in the meta.
And yes, lings with speed upgrade and possiblity to morph into banelings make them extremely interesting because the potential momentum change every time they flank/runby/morph into banes (and them able to burrow makes it even more interesting, because it's a cheap mass produced unit).
Anyways the reason I bring up terror tank is because their race is based on weaker (not necessary) T1 that can work as a resource to get more top bar abilities to help transition into these powerful units that have further customisation.
It's both an extremely cool mechanics as a race and an unit.
But I will stop bringing up zerospace since this isn't what this thread is about.
At this point SG will make or break based on the next beta.
They should have taken feedback way earlier on artstyle when revealed.
And personally I think their biggest failure is rushing that early beta and a lot were left disappointed, including me.
Even the tournament was incredibly dull, could T3 fix it? Possibly but if the game can't even look all that interesting before T3, what's the point?
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On April 13 2024 10:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 10:17 Fango wrote:On April 13 2024 04:58 Waxangel wrote:Good to see there's still pretty massive changes being made between iterations. Not sure how I feel about Tier 1 core casters as a general concept tho If you go back a few pages people were talking for a while about making the game play like a moba, and now they're straight up starting players with a spellcaster. I think it would be a good advancement on SC2 tbh, you get action on the map and something to do straight away, without doing the LoTV move of 12 worker starts. The only scary thing is the sc2 Queen syndrome, but fortunately the game is in such an early state it shouldn't go down that route of making said spellcaster a band aid counter to everything. If the sc2 team could go back they'd probably change some fundamental things so they wouldn't have had to. Also as yet they haven’t done something like warpgate, which is positive. I’m honestly impressed by how good SC2 has been and is despite kind of running with these things I’d consider pretty core design flaws. If Stormgate can sidestep them from the off I’m pretty positive
Part of me wants to see some crazy mechanics thrown out there at least for testing phases.
Like looking back on some of the absolutely insane things that existed in early builds of sc2:
- Queens could spawn larvae anywhere on creep, and also teleport to anywhere on creep
- Mothership could become a walking nuke
- Thors were giant and built in the field
- Protoss had a unit that could transform into any enemy unit
- Zerg could had infested bunkers that could walk
- Infestors could infest enemy barracks to instantly spawn infested terrans
- Ghosts could call down reinforcements to spawn free marines
- Starports could spawn units while flying
- Dark pylons cloaked all nearby protoss
Obviously none of that stuff made it through, but other than infest there aren't any mechanics as crazy as even warpgate, nydus, neural parasite etc.
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EPT
