EPTLiquid Civilization Announcement Discussion - Page 9
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Even if Civ6 starting locations are not balanced, you can always mod it like the NQ group did with Civ5 and make it fairly more balanced. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is. That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously  | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On October 25 2016 00:03 Salteador Neo wrote: That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On October 25 2016 02:20 ragz_gt wrote: Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format. I don't think its about the level of randomness, but the management of luck that determines skill. Poker players have many ways to manage luck, and that oftentimes determines champions. The question is can a Civ 6 player manage the luck inherent within the game? If luck isn't manageable, than RNG becomes too much of a determining factor and the game doesn't feel satisfying and can't succeed as an esport. | ||
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
On October 25 2016 02:20 ragz_gt wrote: Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format. The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On October 25 2016 03:09 KillerSOS wrote: The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like. But is a bad starting position manageable? Your poker example of getting an Ace is a bit extreme. In Civ 6, is a bad starting position so detrimental that the player would lose all the time? Luck is part of every game, the question isn't how it affects the game, its about what tools are the players given to manage luck? | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
On October 25 2016 03:23 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: But is a bad starting position manageable? Your poker example of getting an Ace is a bit extreme. In Civ 6, is a bad starting position so detrimental that the player would lose all the time? Luck is part of every game, the question isn't how it affects the game, its about what tools are the players given to manage luck? Usually it is manageable. It's rare, but some starting positions are simply too bad. The variation is too big, but most starts are playable. Taking about Civ V here, i don't think its the case, but maybe Civ VI is different. The main problem is that games are long, so its really frustrating to get a bad start. Vs AI most people just leave and start again. A competitive setting might be frustrating too. However, map settings can be adjusted (or modded) to be more fair. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Ellestar
Russian Federation6 Posts
On October 22 2016 06:21 lestye wrote: As exciting as this is, I wish I knew more about it. I don't know much about the scene, err I didn't even know there was a scene! Does anyone have any literature about the history of competitive Civ? I haven't looked at the Civ VI thread, but I hope we can have 50 pages of debate on whether removing tile stacking was a good or bad idea like how we debate MBS in other parts of TL. Last Civilization Clan Championship Cup tournament was number 55 i guess, but don't quote me for it. Tournament happened every six weeks, so it lasted about six years. Edit: actually, for a while Civ 3 and Civ 4 tournaments were happening at the same time, so i guess it was a little bit less than six years total. Maybe five? When i was playing it it was something like 9 to 11 different "disciplines" (map, age and rule settings), and about 8 clans competing. I think it started back in Civ 3. Tournament took about 60 hours to complete, and it wasn't an easy thing, given that people all over the world from the different timezones were competing in it. http://civ4players.proboards.com/board/8/civ4-world-championship-cup | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots. also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On October 25 2016 22:22 LaNague wrote: look at age of empires 2 how to deal with random maps. Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots. also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators. You could do that system and only show the game after the first X turns... kinda like how WC3 match replays often start after the initial few seconds have already elapsed. Nothing much happens in the first 3 turns of a Civ game either. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18129 Posts
On October 26 2016 00:53 Yoav wrote: You could do that system and only show the game after the first X turns... kinda like how WC3 match replays often start after the initial few seconds have already elapsed. Nothing much happens in the first 3 turns of a Civ game either. Goodie huts get popped and barbarian swarms start! | ||
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Khalum
Austria831 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18129 Posts
On October 26 2016 00:58 Khalum wrote: You can delete your first settler on turn one! Interesting. Delete settler, conquer neighbouring civ with single warrior, win anyway! | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On October 26 2016 01:00 Acrofales wrote: Interesting. Delete settler, conquer neighbouring civ with single warrior, win anyway! Anybody remember that AoE 1 scenario where you got one priest and the whole map was divided between these two enemy factions and it was like, good luck! Go convert dudes! Happy wololoing! | ||
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