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Nintendo Switch Thread - Page 194
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
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Grovbolle
Denmark3811 Posts
I picked it up myself a week ago and I am having so much fun. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
Wonder also just has a fresh new personality, it has a sense of humor and whimsy to everything that keeps it from ever getting boring or repetitive. It's a 10/10 game for me, 100%. Shout-out to FromSoftware and Nintendo for releasing awesome single player games that are finished and ready to enjoy on day one in 2023. These days that's noteworthy. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
That said, I haven't tried the game for myself so I can't speak to how it actually feels to play. I've only checked out some content to see what the level design looked like. I think a lot of obvious love has gone into this one and it's being rightly praised for it, but personally I wish there was some of the rough, naturalistic design from your SMB3's and SMW's that's been lost to this smoothed out, "introduce gimmick that is unique to this level only, iterate through a few takes on the gimmick that gradually increase in difficulty (usually only up to a moderate level at best), flag" school of thought. Even though I acknowledge that this is almost surely a more deliberate approach to design, that most would probably call a good thing. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
On October 30 2023 09:30 Turbovolver wrote: I really admire the creativity that went into Wonder, but I hate the new school of level design they've fallen into for all their 2D Mario games, ever since the Wii. It feels like all the difficulty has been shifted from "playing through the game" to "collecting all the secret items", and that's not a change for the better IMO. Giving people characters that can't die is a much better option for presenting a lower-difficulty option without compromising the design of the levels themselves. That said, I haven't tried the game for myself so I can't speak to how it actually feels to play. I've only checked out some content to see what the level design looked like. I think a lot of obvious love has gone into this one and it's being rightly praised for it, but personally I wish there was some of the rough, naturalistic design from your SMB3's and SMW's that's been lost to this smoothed out, "introduce gimmick that is unique to this level only, iterate through a few takes on the gimmick that gradually increase in difficulty (usually only up to a moderate level at best), flag" school of thought. Even though I acknowledge that this is almost surely a more deliberate approach to design, that most would probably call a good thing. I love when this happens, because it's what keeps each level fresh and not monotonous. That's why some of the greatest 2D platformers of all time (e.g., the Donkey Kong Country series) are as great as they are - because you're not just replaying the same level over and over again. You learn something new while building off previously earned knowledge. I also think it's fair to say that SMB3 and SMW did this too. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
Random example because I was just looking at maps, in Donut Plains 1 from Super Mario World, the player runs into a wall of switch blocks that they can run up if they have activated the switch. Otherwise they just run into a little triangle sitting on the ground and a bunch of empty dotted lines, and it looks very strange. This also happens basically right next to a pipe, for no good reason. I'm sure if a similar situation appeared in one of the newer games, there'd be more space between it and the previous "moment" of the level that ended at that pipe, and also a series of switch block platforms would be used to create a way to jump up above that would appear much less strange, and more inviting when the player encounters it before getting the switch. Am I saying it's a good thing SMW has that random moment of clumsy level design in it? No, but I think it illustrates the point that levels were a bit more thrown together, but without losing a focus on what's fun to play. Though actually now I think about it more as I type all this out, what if they actually built it that way to force you to discover the key if you entered with the switch activated, to make sure you encounter the concept of a secret exit? Gah, I spent all that time typing out that example of my point only to realise it's probably not a good example of it after all. Aaaaaanyways, although I used the word "gimimck" I didn't mean it in a pejorative way, just as a way to refer to the unique feature introduced by a level that often doesn't stick around past that level. DKC games indeed do this and I enjoyed those a lot, although I would say they tend to feel a bit less one-note to me as compared to 2D Mario since the "New" series. An example I recall from said DKC play session is Elevator Antics, a level where the unique feature is pits that you can only get across by using elevators that keep spawning at the top/bottom of the screen and moving down/up. However, interspersing the elevator sections there are sections where you crawl through tight passages while dealing with the snake enemies, and two sections where you have to dodge the bee enemies while jumping from rope to rope, those two each their own variation on a theme because one uses vertical bees and the other horizontal bees. I do think that some random variability in challenge level, and in the style of obstacle you encounter, makes levels feel much more organic. More like a place to visit and venture through than a game designer's precisely constructed challenge. Especially if there isn't a ton of challenge because the game is being careful not to be too hard. Still, I know that's mostly just personal preference and others specifically enjoy levels having consistent theming throughout and a ramping up difficulty. And I'm not here to shit on Wonder in particular because I do think it brings a lot of well, "wonder" to the table regardless of how I feel about the level design (and also because I've only seen some smallish fraction of all its levels). I just wanted to put into words some of the thoughts I've had about Mario level design in general. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
 Are you planning on buying/playing SMB Wonder? | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On October 30 2023 09:30 Turbovolver wrote: I really admire the creativity that went into Wonder, but I hate the new school of level design they've fallen into for all their 2D Mario games, ever since the Wii. It feels like all the difficulty has been shifted from "playing through the game" to "collecting all the secret items", and that's not a change for the better IMO. Giving people characters that can't die is a much better option for presenting a lower-difficulty option without compromising the design of the levels themselves. That said, I haven't tried the game for myself so I can't speak to how it actually feels to play. I've only checked out some content to see what the level design looked like. I think a lot of obvious love has gone into this one and it's being rightly praised for it, but personally I wish there was some of the rough, naturalistic design from your SMB3's and SMW's that's been lost to this smoothed out, "introduce gimmick that is unique to this level only, iterate through a few takes on the gimmick that gradually increase in difficulty (usually only up to a moderate level at best), flag" school of thought. Even though I acknowledge that this is almost surely a more deliberate approach to design, that most would probably call a good thing. I get where you're coming from, for sure. The most memorable part of New Super Mario Bros. U for me was New Super Luigi U, where you played as Luigi in a remixed and much harder version of the game on short timers, and all the challenge aspects like timers and 1-ups actually mattered. The original game just felt so sanded around the edges to me that there's not very much I go back to. I had similar issues with 3D World, where it just felt "soft", I guess? I remember enjoying 3D Land a lot more, anecdotally. Wonder is just so goofy and fun and cute that I don't miss the seat-of-your-pants challenge of the old-school Mario games as much as I do in other recent titles. It really is something you should play for yourself without getting spoiled in advance. That's when Wonder is at its best. It's not trying to be SMW or SMB3, but I think that's a very correct decision. Wonder packs in so many surprises that it felt like I was back playing the original SMW again, because like SMW it's so determined in what it's bringing to the table and not at all tied down by what came before. That's the impressive part to me. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
On October 30 2023 18:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think that's fair, and at the end of the day, a lot of it is subjective and comes down to personal preferences Are you planning on buying/playing SMB Wonder?It really comes down to how interested the kids are. I think my son would rather Kirby Star Allies even though from what I gather it's probably an objectively worse game haha | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4550 Posts
I've encountered three 4* levels so far and those have been a decent challenge. 'Jump! Jump! Jump!' in particular was a real piece of work, took lots of attempts to beat. If there are 5* challenges too that are even harder, the difficulty is definitely there lol. Any 1* to 3* levels are pretty trivial so far, but that's ok to me. This is a game that kids should be able to tackle. Having some proper hard, optional, stages is a good compromise to me. Will be a nice challenge to 100%. Sidenote: the game I was playing before this is Bloodborne on PS5, the difference in theme is pretty hilarious, from an eldritch horror game with tentacle monsters to the acid trip that is Super Mario Bros Wonder XD. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
On October 31 2023 09:31 Turbovolver wrote: It really comes down to how interested the kids are. I think my son would rather Kirby Star Allies even though from what I gather it's probably an objectively worse game haha As long as he's having fun While most of SMBW is pretty straightforward, there are a few surprisingly challenging areas too. I'm about where Laurens is, in the game, and I know what he's referring to with the occasional Level 4 stage being decently difficult. "Wall Climb Jump 2" - a very vertical stage - ended up being a little hard, especially towards the end/top. + Show Spoiler + This person beat it much faster than I did: | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
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invasioned
2 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4550 Posts
Missed the ones from W1 and W3 tho, will have to go back and explore. Definitely some difficulty in this game though, it's not Celeste C-side level, but it's not a complete walk in the park either. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45048 Posts
Now, I'm trying to give Persona 5 Royal another shot at impressing me. The first time I tried playing it, the multi-hour prologue/tutorial was so boring that I ultimately lost all interest in waiting around for exciting gameplay (which happened for the first 5 minutes of the game, and then simply didn't return). I've decided to break up the beginning into smaller chunks - reading/clicking through 30-60 minutes at a time - to try and will myself through the beginning. The fact that I have to commit to this level of planning just to make it through the introduction is already problematic. I also think the "plot flashback" / "explanation for why the student protagonist is in his current situation" has absolutely terrible logic, plus the "at-school" story during the first 5 hours is just... bad: + Show Spoiler + 16-year-old boy is walking down the street and sees a man assaulting a woman. Woman cries out for help. 16-year-old boy calmly walks over and places a hand on the assailant's shoulder. The surprised assailant turns, takes a step back, stumbles, falls, becomes embarrassed for falling, and threatens to sue the boy in front of the female victim and other bystanders/drivers who witnessed the entire thing. Apparently, no one vouches for this child or speaks out against the assailant, including the female victim. This leads to the boy being criminally charged and found guilty of... something, expelled from his school, and automatically becoming a pariah - not a hero - to everyone. He's suddenly hated by every single person. He has to go live with some random adult who hates the boy before even meeting him. He has to go to a new school with a principal, classroom teacher, gym teacher, and students who all hate the boy too. Everyone calls him terrible and pathetic and a waste of space. Everyone wishes they didn't have to be burdened by this literal hero of a child who quietly keeps to himself when he's not busy helping assault victims in a non-violent manner. Even if the general public didn't know the whole story, there's no legitimate reason for this level of negativity towards the kid. Obviously, the magical / mystical / supernatural parts of P5R are areas you should suspend your disbelief for, but this whole justification for how the protagonist got into the situation he's in isn't even remotely realistic. The situation simply wasn't vague enough for it to all be one big misunderstanding, and it makes no sense that all these adults who are in potentially-supportive roles preemptively treat him like he's serial-killer-level scum. Edit/Update: I'm about 5-6 hours in now, and the only character who seems even remotely complex is the angry, blonde boy, Ryuji Sakamoto. Everyone else seems extremely one-dimensional and transparent. For a game that spends its time focusing more on exposition and drama rather than open exploration or combat, the plot seems pretty terrible so far, especially since these interactions seem to be so black-and-white. I'll be surprised if there's any nuance to the physically abusive gym teacher who tries blackmailing one female student into sex and actually sexually assaults another female student (leading to her suicide attempt), especially since we're also being shown that he dreams of ruling the school, completely naked except for a pink thong, with his female students all over him. Extremely heavy-handed writing. | ||
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Trozz
Canada3455 Posts
Combat’s good but the rest’s meh. Liked SMT more. | ||
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