Overwatch is still relatively new, with little information about hero picking. I wanted to provide a first look guide at the heroes and the why's of picking certain types of heroes. This is not meant to be always correct as there is a bit of talent with a hero well, certain map dependencies, and ability to work as a team. I'll discuss those items in other guides in the future, but for now I think it is good to have a basic understanding of why certain heroes are very useful. Much like my other guide on team communication, I’ll approach it from what is learned from other games and basic theory. All the ideas here should seem somewhat obvious and I hope that it feels intuitive. I want to explain some of my basic understanding of why choosing heroes is important, how compositions play to the map, then discuss pros and cons of individual heroes, lastly discuss a few groups of hero compositions and when they are used. -----------------------------------------------
When and when not to change heroes- The mechanism in the game which prevents you from just changing a hero every time you spawn is the charging of ultimate abilities. Charging ultimate abilities carries over from death. Also, certain ultimates as far as i can tell are lost when you change heroes such as the teleporter. Due to this fundamental mechanic when changing heroes, usually its only one person who should change and not a whole team. Also, you want to change when your ultimate timer is low, not when it is close to finishing. Heroes that have low dependence on their ultimate should be first candidates for a change when one is needed. More specifically, there is a place where certain heroes and "open up" a game. (In paintball terminology) Restated in other words can get kills on key positions that are difficult to get otherwise that make the rest of the team perform well. Often these are based on heroes with aoe ultimates. In general if they are running 4-6 heroes of a certain class, its worth running 2 heroes that counter them, for example, 5 winstons and a mercy, you could run 2 reapers changing out a tracer who has a weaker ultimate. Even though you may think that it is good to change more heroes, for the most part it is better to not change your composition since the strength of your heroes comes from getting to and using your ultimate abilites. Particularly, some heroes with game changing ultimates are Reaper, Hanzo, Junkrat, D.Va, Mercy and Symmetra. The reaper ultimate pairs with his ability to push in without taking damage than unleash massive aoe around him. Hanzo's scream of ryuu ga waga teki wo kurau unleashes a dragon funnel that passes through walls and basically kills all heroes near the center. Junkrat has a tire that passes around paths and explodes in a ball of aoe on impact. D.va can dash forward, slam her suit onto a point, and unleash it as a ball of aoe. Mercy is great because she can revive her team so you can dive in kill 2 heroes lose 4, then instantly revive the 4 and continue with a 6 on 4. Symmetra has a teleporter which can instantly reinforce forward the team making your team have the spawn position advantage. Thus, often when playing these heroes, you might wait a bit to change just to use your ultimate. -----------------------------------------------
Key map characteristics and Player movement- One of the most important things to learn when in a shooting environment is to move and focus on shooting with a purpose. A composition may not work for you that worked for others because of this principle. Certain classes will in general occupy certain areas. Knowing which places will be occupied by both teams will allow more solid coordination. Without understanding the maps and why you are changing positions you cannot do this. A person moves or is killed and it leaves a gap which is exposed when nobody else is able to fill in that gap. Gaps are opportunities that will rapidly turn the game in a teams favor. Being that this is one of the core concepts in explaining compositions, I’ll go over this with a few examples. Looking at shooting before moving,. In choosing where to position and where to move between will usually be to cover a flank, occupy lanes, and hold positions. A common strategy for this is to choose 2 lanes to occupy and shoot into along a wedge. For example, there are two core lanes of fire occupied by the players defending on route 66. The red area is the region where players roam and stay protected, the corners of the wedges are positions that a player moves to add dps into a region the opposing team wants to push. The units that occupy the space which is being pushed into from the lanes are generally going to be your core army of 3-5 players. (I will start by describing 3 as the core composition, but understand that could be as high as 5.) The remaining mid and back players will support those players with damage or healing will be known here as the dps, since their role is to prevent the other team from pushing onto your core players. The position of the back dps players usually depends on the team strength at that moment. If you are up in players and they are not pushing as hard, DPS players should assume much more aggressive positions which leaves them more exposed, but allows them to offer much more fire power. If your team is down in numbers or the opposing team is pushing hard down a single lane, it is much better to assume a much more defensive posture down a covered position. Thus, identifying when and where pushes will come will help you to identify where you should be to get the most out of your class. The third concept here is how the map transitions between areas. There are two ideas, one is lane density, the other is player density. In a maps with fewer lanes like route 66, the general composition will either favor spreading out as much as possible in a clearing or pushing through a choke. The choke is a region where many players occupy a similar line in shooting. Ideally this is where high dps, like bastion, widowmaker, will lock in on the enemy army and where most of the challenges will occur in games with a single core. In teams running two shot callers, a clearing will be more challenging because the other team will be in 2 coordinating groups and get the most of out mobility instead of damage. Lastly some maps will not be so simple and will have many small paths in a small area. These maps are particularly hard for certain compositions which are highly succeptible to flanking or burst damage in a small area of effect. Many lanes exist and holes will be much easier to occur. This happens for example on a map like ilios with high laning density. The core will in general occupy a much larger region and players will need to be able to play more effectively alone rather than with a group. -----------------------------------------------
Hero classes and basic counters- This is a section where i’ll go over very briefly each hero, core usage, and counters. Players familiar with the heroes and counters may skip this. Due to that fact, I’ll be using a lot of spoiler tags. In general offense and defense are made to create strenghts in the team, tanks serve some purpose on the map and supports help the team in some core mechanic of play. Offense- + Show Spoiler +
Genji- Very mobile hero, very good for flanking and using terrain to his benefit. Attrib:+high mobility lots of dps - low health, not the best ultimate, not very long range +Bastion (can flank), widow maker (dive past snipes hard to hit), reinhart (flank) -mei (doesn't have to target), symmetra (has a bunch of small turrets, brings team quickly back to position after a death from flanks), d.va (lots of shots steady damage) Macree- Since he reloads so fast and shoots fast for a lot of damage at range, he’s effective at shutting down a lot of close range heroes or hard to hit heroes. Attrib:+Moderate mobility, fast shooting dps almost no reload time - low health, strong ultimate, good range +D.va (snap shoot), Mei (can stay at range), Pharah (shoot her out of the sky), Mercy (quickly assault her) -Roadhog (not a lot of ability to avoid the hook),Winston (can close the distance fast), widowmaker ( basically one shots him) Pharah- The rocket aoe and ability to shoot over terrain makes her able to clear out clumped enemies or heroes that rely on shields. Attrib:+AOE on rocket, Ultimate can clear a section quickly –exposed to a lot of heroes in the air, not very effective at close range. +Reinhart (Burst down shields), Lucio (can hit him even though he is mobile),Bastion(3 shots him quickly), Torbjorn (kills turret quickly) -Widowmaker (snipe her quickly), Roadhog(hooks her relatively easily, heals from the rockets), Tracer (rockets almost never hit her), reaper (can push in quickly and avoid damage) Reaper- Can move a short distance without getting hit. Has very high dps at close range, maybe best dps at close range in the game. Attrib:+quick reload time, easily disengages when making mistakes, one of the strongest ultimates in the game –runs slow, not good at range, +Bastion (can flank, phase through), Lucio (shoots in a region), Winston (can avoid him and rarely misses him) -Reinhart(Shield him and charge when damge kicks in),Hanzo(use walls to keep distance, faster), Zarya (Gains a lot of damage from shields on her and an ally) Solider76- Multiple types of core DPS and ultimate buffs team. Combos well with nearly every hero. Denies Flanking. Attrib:+Lots of dps, buffs team pushes into lanes -Not overly specialized not usually getting a large amount of burst damage. + Tracer (lots of shots, and has aoe secondary rockets), symmetra (denies turrets, can tank a little bit of damage), junkrat (very hard to hit from junkrat, kills ult well), Genji (denies flanking) - Roadhog (can heal quickly and hook him), Reinhart (cannot shoot through shields), Widowmaker (cannot flank her and does not tank a lot of shots from her) Tracer- Super mobile, moderate dps, very good at flanking where ramps are. Not as good on all maps partcularly ones pushing through a point like temple of anubis, or very open terrain like like lijiang tower. Attrib:+Extreme mobility, can take over a game – High skill cap, medium damage, depends a lot of map +Bastion (can flank), junkrat(flanks easily, can avoid grenades), reinhart (flanks) -Torbjorn(turret targets her well), Mei(aoe damage doesn’t have to hit her) , d.va (lots of shots steady damage), soldier 76/reaper (good at denying her a push down a preferred path)
Bastion- Good at sieging into a lane. Useful ultimate that adds a lot of mobility and splash. Attrib:+Low mobility, lots of dps Great in exposed terrain- not good in covered terrain +Most tanks, teams that push through chokes with low mobility heroes -Flanking heroes like genji, tracer; heroes that can shoot him with limited line of sight, such as junkrat, reaper, pharah. Hanzo- Good ability to readjust positions. Not a ton of distance, amazing ultimate RYUU GA WAKA TEKI WO KARAU!! Attrib:+ lots of dps, scales walls, one of the best ultimates in the game - low health, not good at killing tanks. +Any support -Any tank particularly roadhog, bastion, torbjorn Junkrat - Doesn’t require line of sight and shoots over and round walls and corners. Really good against anything stationary or clumped players pushing together. Attrib:+shoots fast, lots of damage –Not very good at hitting a mobile target, not much health +Bastion (DPS down), reinhart (lot of damage to his shield), D.va (can hit her from multiple angles) -Genji (really hard to hit), lucio (hard to hit), Pharah ( cannot hit her and she can hit him even though he’s hiding around a corner) Mei - Buffed to death recently, possible even broken on a lot of the smaller maps. Doesn’t require much aiming skill. Low skill cap. Attrib:+high dps low aim required – Very little range, usually requires a lot of cover to survive. +Reinhart (freezes him), Lucio (doesn’t have to aim much, slows him), - Zarya (can stay at range), widowmaker (can shoot her from afar), reaper (can initiate phase instantly and reposition of caught by her, hanzo (can shoot her through walls or quickly get away) Torbjorn- Places turrets that auto aim. Can stay out of the line of sight and still does damage. Low skill cap. Attrib:+Turrets deploy fast, decent damage – can get shut down hard by a pharah, reaper, or a junkrat. + Tracer (Turret auto targets and hits her), Mei (cannot really do much damage to the turret before it kills her), all supports (really good at keeping the masses out of a region of the map. -Reaper (can phase into behind the turret and quickly kill it), Pharah (3 shots his turret), Junkrat (can shoot over walls killing the turret) WidowMaker- One of the best dps heroes at reducing their dps heroes. Her ultimate helps the whole team to understand what is going on in the game and she has a very high skill cap. Attrib:+High dps, very useful ultimate –flankable, low dps, not good on maps without lots of distance to shoot. + Mercy (shuts a mercy down hard), Mei (cannot even get the range), Pharah (being in the air exposes her a lot) -Torbjorn (his turret auto targest well), tracer (effective at cirumventing), Genji (good at scaling walls to get a flank, hard to hit when close)
D.va- Can funnel a lot of fire power down a lane. Crazy good ultimate at clearing a position, pairs well with most other heroes in the game. Weak to very few compositions. Moves slow while firing and pushes slow. Much better at holding points. ReinHart- Least dps out of the tanks, has to push slowly onto a point, can clear a room with ult. Very good on maps with few lanes and hard to push chokes. Much better at pushing objectives. Roadhog- Mobile hero. Little dependence on a healer. Aoe hook is very good at catching hard to hit heroes. Ultimate is good at supressing a single spot. Does not hold objectives well. Very good at splitting up a team that is trying to stay grouped up. Winston- Very good at holding a point. Shield is great on allies and cannot be flanked with it. Best close range tank for very small places. Ultimate is a little tricky to land. Probably the best tank at carrying a team. Zarya- High dps tank, buffs another ally, Most damage out of the tanks. Maybe the weakest tank ultimate. Very good on maps with a lot of lanes and flanking positions.
Lucio- Decent aoe damage, buffs team damage and speed, best opening hero for a team racing to a position. Lots of mobility tricks that make him hard to master. One of the easiest and most intuitive healers, but is limited by line of sight making him good for teams that group up hard. Mercy- Best healer, can stay in battle without being in line of sight. Doesn’t pair well with a lot of the mobile heroes, can easily heal heroes on the high ground, making flaking heroes much stronger. Symmetra- Best support for objectives far away. Turrets give decent dps, but can quickly loose it all at once. Provides teleporter ultimate for quick reinforcing. Not very good at slowing pushes once they have started. Zenyatta- Counters very high dps compositions. Can shield and heal a lot of the team at once without line of sight. Can take down a lot of heroes as well. No tank, no win vs Zenyatta.
----------------------------------------------- Cores(tanks and supports) vs dps(offense and defense)-
A lot of the dps oriented heroes can kill a large group of heroes due to the large damage they output in a very short period of time. These heroes often have larger flaws, such as bastion, widow maker, and junkrat. Your core is generally the best heroes to change out, which is usually a lower dps compositions with less flaws and dependencies on their ultimate. Due to this concept of the low dps generally being better to switch out I'll compare a few sets of 3 core heroes to explain what they work with together along with their advantages and disadvantages.
Core compositions and their benefits on maps. Reinhart, Mercy*, Reaper- +Choke pushing, close range, survivability, high lane presence - low dps, loses to flanks, *notice that with mercy, since she has low dps a more dps oriented support is used. Symmetra far from the point, and zanyatta against tankless teams. Zarya, lucio, D.va- +Very good clearing chokeless composition. Lots of dps and healing. Can hold a point well. Good against heroes that have splash damage. -can be singled out by strong widow makers and maps with funnels. The ultimates are a bit weak, not good for clearing an objective all at once. Roadhog, zenyatta, mei + The mei can stay in cover and poke out on whatever the roadhog pulls. The zenyatta can shield him and increase the damage on the mei. Its good for a map with a little side building and an open region around it. - Does not do well pushing onto a point. Doesn’t do well transitioning between places that don’t have much cover.
Some generally not good core compositions- Zarya, Mercy, Zarya- The mercy needs a bit of protections, but the zarya's both cast shields on each other that boost their damage. In general it will be hard to keep the mercy alive with this composition making her effectively useless. Weak ultimates. Lucio, Mei, D.va- This composition in general is bad because most of the maps have an angle where a sniper or bastion can pick these off. The lack the power to shield and dies to aoe ultimates. It will be hard to keep them together and not die. Weak ultimates that don’t pair together. Symmetra, Winston, Pharah- Symmetra and pharah are not good at pushing, your core will spread out quite a bit and be picked off. The dps from the pharah is not enough and winston will be jumping around too much that their core and just push your core. Also its hard to have a shot caller in this composition. It leads a lot to snowballing from the enemy team. Ultimates do not synergize well. -----------------------------------------------
Closing thoughts- Hopefully this guide will help give ideas as to why you’d choose compositions and the characteristics of the maps that makes them solid. I did not include all the permutations of compositions, but rather general principles and some examples to help players understand the hows and whys of Overwatch. Also, I believe it well help players a little to think about how to correctly use a composition that they are running. Thank you for reading this and please leave comments about your favorite compositions that you run on the maps.
Nice read not that I agree with everything regarding heroes. But some heroes vary heavily in their strengths and weaknesses depending on how good you are.
You underestimate Zaria Ult heavily though. It is the opener for a wombo combo. Basically this ult, makes every aoe ult in the game extremely powerful. It can also prevent reaching a point in the last seconds. But because you usually aren't at 100% energy, you should sync your ult with an AoE ult. Basically if you have a Zaria, don't waste your Dragon or Barrage etc, wait for the Zaria ult and tell her yours is ready too.
I also prefer Lucio over Mercy with Reaper, since you can speed boost reaper ult into the enemy. So people can't even run away.
As for Zen, he shreds tanks and their shields super fast, so he is actually pretty good against Tank heavy comps. While he has to be really careful against Widows, who can one shot bodyshot him or Tracers who can easily one clip him. So you shouldn't play him into Widow or Tracer, unless you have a Torb.
On May 10 2016 21:56 FeyFey wrote: Nice read not that I agree with everything regarding heroes. But some heroes vary heavily in their strengths and weaknesses depending on how good you are.
You underestimate Zaria Ult heavily though. It is the opener for a wombo combo. Basically this ult, makes every aoe ult in the game extremely powerful. It can also prevent reaching a point in the last seconds. But because you usually aren't at 100% energy, you should sync your ult with an AoE ult. Basically if you have a Zaria, don't waste your Dragon or Barrage etc, wait for the Zaria ult and tell her yours is ready too.
I also prefer Lucio over Mercy with Reaper, since you can speed boost reaper ult into the enemy. So people can't even run away.
As for Zen, he shreds tanks and their shields super fast, so he is actually pretty good against Tank heavy comps. While he has to be really careful against Widows, who can one shot bodyshot him or Tracers who can easily one clip him. So you shouldn't play him into Widow or Tracer, unless you have a Torb.
Good point, I haven't see a wombo combo with Zarya's ultimate. There is a good chance that I'm underestimating it. I enjoy lucio over mercy in most scenarios. As a mercy player i do like to have a reaper or soldier 76 teammate to help keep me alive. For an example, I don't have the greatest mechanics in Overwatch so I tried to pick things that complimented each other on some theoretical basis on dealing with certain maps that i'm playing. The mercy combo I was trying on Numbani and we rolled 3 teams with it. I could easily be wrong with that.
The point i guess I was trying to make was that the optimal counter composition depends on synergy, the terrain, as well as the enemy team.
As far as zenyatta and tankless compositions they are rare and i haven't had a lot of practice against it. I have lost 2/3 games against it and the zenyatta really helped me play a macree and push on gibralter. I agree that zenyatta is good against tanks as well. Zenyatta may be one of my favorites of all classes to play actually because i like his attack mechanic. I'll think about it and update the thread a bit later. Thanks for the additional thoughts though on things that I don't have completely clear answers on yet while testing a lot of things and trying to prepare some map specific threads.
Zenyatta is simply too squishy to perform the role his ability set assumes. Both dealing damage and healing with Zeny requires you to maintain line of sight, at least briefly every 3 seconds to maintain either the dmg debuff or healing, while he only has 150 total health, same as Tracer, and 0 mobility. Being able to get OHK by headshot from like Mei RMB or even fully charged body shot from Widow (I think it's 170), it's simply never safe for him to do what the kit lays out for him. Just needs a flat hp buff of some form.
Nice analysis thread. Going in reverse, I think Zenyatta can do well in some situations. It seems like his attack at range is still quite deadly. I never used him much (or tanks much) so did not realize his attacks/abilities against tanks was that substantial, but I think I see why.
Orb of discord gives 1.5 x damage, whereas Mercy damage buffs only to 1.3 times for essentially only one friendly player (am I wrong here?). So everybody focusing on one tank with the discord orb will just destroy him compared to other ways to buff damage.
A headshot combined with orb of discord nets 300% damage... and if you look on that sheet (bottom tabs) a TON of things can headshot that you wouldn't expect. I mean, Reaper's shotguns, Soldier's Rifle, Lucio's main attack, etc.
Zenyatta's lack of mobility keeps him check. The fact he dies so fast is exactly why he isn't all over the place completely negating tanks.
This being said though, the need to keep LOS to heal hurts him more than anything else. Either he needs a smidge more hp to 175 or his healing orb needs to last 5 seconds at least.
He's actually still very strong if played well as a friend of mine is a monster on him. He's also really strong coupled with symettra on certain maps like first point dorado on defense. But mercy and lucio just overall outdo him if you don't need the discord orb.
also thanks for the post tokinho I'll read it more carefully soon but I really appreciate your contributions to the new forum :D
@ the OP It's very fun thinking about counters to classes. But it's quite variable depending on situations, combinations of classes, maps, and everything else. You did a great job there in general, even though everybody's opinion will vary a little. I'll comment on a couple of things.
Hanzo comments: + against Bastion. Silent arrows are good, and his Ultimate is perfect to kill Bastions in sentry mode and other static defense. And I see I'm not the only one in love with Hanzo's ultimate. Man is it good but even more than that it just sounds so good. Love 95% of the voice acting in this game, I mean just LOVE it. So a really spot on translation for what he is saying (gotta put this out there for posterity sake) is, according to my wife:
It's not a command at all. It's a statement. He says "Dragon(s) is(are) about to eat (swallow/devour) my(our) enemy(ies)." Japanese doesn't distinguish plurals and singulars, so it can go either way.
Genji comments: Another huge plus against Bastion is that he can reflect. All it takes is one ranged Genji attack and one second of reflect to kill Bastion in sentry mode. At a distance, if you are trigger happy like me, you will fire at Genji before you even know it's Genji. Ouch.
Reaper comments: Love Reaper... so much fun. Pretty sure Reaper was designed to be a counter to Widowmakers, teleporting behind her, etc. so it just felt missing from the description of + and -.
I like the core section. I'm much more of a solo-minded player by heart, so that got my brain gears going... good stuff.
On May 10 2016 21:56 FeyFey wrote: Nice read not that I agree with everything regarding heroes. But some heroes vary heavily in their strengths and weaknesses depending on how good you are.
You underestimate Zaria Ult heavily though. It is the opener for a wombo combo. Basically this ult, makes every aoe ult in the game extremely powerful. It can also prevent reaching a point in the last seconds. But because you usually aren't at 100% energy, you should sync your ult with an AoE ult. Basically if you have a Zaria, don't waste your Dragon or Barrage etc, wait for the Zaria ult and tell her yours is ready too.
I also prefer Lucio over Mercy with Reaper, since you can speed boost reaper ult into the enemy. So people can't even run away.
As for Zen, he shreds tanks and their shields super fast, so he is actually pretty good against Tank heavy comps. While he has to be really careful against Widows, who can one shot bodyshot him or Tracers who can easily one clip him. So you shouldn't play him into Widow or Tracer, unless you have a Torb.
Good point, I haven't see a wombo combo with Zarya's ultimate. There is a good chance that I'm underestimating it. I enjoy lucio over mercy in most scenarios. As a mercy player i do like to have a reaper or soldier 76 teammate to help keep me alive. For an example, I don't have the greatest mechanics in Overwatch so I tried to pick things that complimented each other on some theoretical basis on dealing with certain maps that i'm playing. The mercy combo I was trying on Numbani and we rolled 3 teams with it. I could easily be wrong with that.
The point i guess I was trying to make was that the composition depends on the terrain as well as the enemy team.
As far as zenyatta and tankless compositions they are rare and i haven't had a lot of practice against it. I have lost 2/3 games against it and the zenyatta really helped me play a macree and push on gibralter. I agree that zenyatta is good against tanks as well. I'll think about it and update the thread a bit later. Thanks for the additional thoughts though on things that I don't have completely clear answers on yet while testing a lot of things and trying to prepare some map specific threads.
So long as McCree is in current form, Discord is not needed to shred tanks. Cree can flashbang over Rein's shield and Fan the Hammer -> roll -> Fan the Hammer will melt any tank in the game. Also really good damage at midrange with just pistol shots.
While I agree this is a good start to looking at team comps, I think control point maps are going to lend themselves to different comps than payload, and capture point (assault) maps are going to fit somewhere in between payload and control point maps.
As for "core comps" the only one I had qualms with was the Lucio, D.Va, Mei one as that comp can work well on control point maps, and to a slightly lesser extent on capture point maps. D.Va and Mei are both great at clearing enemy teams off of the point with their ults, and Lucio is just in general a nearly must have hero for any control point map. For a Payload map, I would agree that D.Va + Mei + Lucio does not work well.
Mei doesn't really counter Genji/Tracer, because both have greater mobility and can outrange her left click; if they're competent they will just poke from midrange (and oneshot combo in Genji's case). You have more chance at countering Tracer with a right click headshot (150dmg). Actually I'm convinced that's the reason Mei isn't viable in competitive play.
Actually mei is the one hero every single genji in this game hates. Genji really cant deal with mei very well unless shes low enough to be swift striked or just never moves and lets genji left click her for days.
Between her freeze, the ability to ice block, and put up walls she can delay for a very long time and in combination with anyone else she can create what is effectively a genji free zone around her.
Now if shes low, or her ult is down and genji has blade up while getting resets, she'll just watch as everyone around her dies. But most of the time her and mccree can zone genji away and dissuade him from going all in on anyone standing next to them.
I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
On May 11 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote: I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
Pharah and Soldier 76 can do okay or even well vs Widowmaker with the AoE splash from their missiles, at the very least they can knock her out of her sniper's nest leaving her vulnerable to be picked off. Also, Genji. I've been killed by a Genji reflecting one of my teammate's attacks as widowmaker because I knew better than to try to snipe a Genji with deflect up.
On May 11 2016 10:17 xDaunt wrote: Mei owns Genji. If she catches Genji in close quarters, Genji is toast. Genji has to play around her.
Mei owns everyone in a very specific situation, as does Junkrat or Hanzo etc... that's not really an argument especially when Tracer/Genji have an escape while other heroes do not. Would you say that Mei counters S76? Because that's what happens when he's out of position.
We had a few weeks of Tracer/Genji dominance in competitive play and no one has ever played Mei to counter them. Heck, her pickrate went DOWN in that period, and IIRC she's only ever been played on Defense despite KOTH maps having lots of those "close quarters" fights. Teams eventually solved the Tracer/Genji meta by playing double McCree, while Mei sees less play than Bastion and Torbjorn.
On May 11 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote: I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
Pharah and Soldier 76 can do okay or even well vs Widowmaker with the AoE splash from their missiles, at the very least they can knock her out of her sniper's nest leaving her vulnerable to be picked off. Also, Genji. I've been killed by a Genji reflecting one of my teammate's attacks as widowmaker because I knew better than to try to snipe a Genji with deflect up.
Sure thing, especially for Genji. Pharah needs to be really careful though
On May 11 2016 10:17 xDaunt wrote: Mei owns Genji. If she catches Genji in close quarters, Genji is toast. Genji has to play around her.
Mei owns everyone in a very specific situation, as does Junkrat or Hanzo etc... that's not really an argument especially when Tracer/Genji have an escape while other heroes do not. Would you say that Mei counters S76? Because that's what happens when he's out of position.
We had a few weeks of Tracer/Genji dominance in competitive play and no one has ever played Mei to counter them. Heck, her pickrate went DOWN in that period, and IIRC she's only ever been played on Defense despite KOTH maps having lots of those "close quarters" fights. Teams eventually solved the Tracer/Genji meta by playing double McCree, while Mei sees less play than Bastion and Torbjorn.
Genji is uniquely vulnerable to Mei in closer quarters when compared to other offensive heroes because he has relatively low DPS and no way to interrupt Mei. He basically has to run. Like I said, this vulnerability is mitigated by Genji's mobility and ability to play around Mei. Perhaps more importantly, we can't ignore Mei's own inherent limitations. Given these, I'm not surprised that, at competitive levels, players opted for other heroes to counter Genji picks.
On May 11 2016 10:17 xDaunt wrote: Mei owns Genji. If she catches Genji in close quarters, Genji is toast. Genji has to play around her.
Mei owns everyone in a very specific situation, as does Junkrat or Hanzo etc... that's not really an argument especially when Tracer/Genji have an escape while other heroes do not. Would you say that Mei counters S76? Because that's what happens when he's out of position.
We had a few weeks of Tracer/Genji dominance in competitive play and no one has ever played Mei to counter them. Heck, her pickrate went DOWN in that period, and IIRC she's only ever been played on Defense despite KOTH maps having lots of those "close quarters" fights. Teams eventually solved the Tracer/Genji meta by playing double McCree, while Mei sees less play than Bastion and Torbjorn.
Genji was solved in the meta by being nerfed, and his healer of choice zenyatta being nerfed, and the bonus hp from symmettra being nerfed.
Mei is the best solution to a genji in pubs. Can he escape her sure. But can he dive her or anyone near her? Nope. He's been nerfed to the point where there are just better options for certain compositions in competitive.
McCree can beat genji, and I agree hes also a good choice, but thats a skill matchup where you need to flashbang the genji before he deflects or if he's close enough by hitting the ground at his feet. Its nowhere near as simple as just left clicking as Mei and also less reliable.
Mei is good vs genji. She just cant do much else so she didnt get much play in comp because she can be ignored and played around in fully organized play, but outside of organized play shes top choice vs an annoying genji. Not so much tracer (another reason she wasnt used in comp was genji ran alongside tracer).
Also @djzapz A good widow will always destroy pharah. Pharah is not good vs widowmaker, if anything widowmaker will regularly shut down pharah very hard. She moves slow in the air, and is fairly predictable for sky movement making headshots really easy. Pharah can shoulder check and poke a widow out of one spot but if pharah doesnt know where widow is, then widow will destroy her.
On May 11 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote: I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
So you mean all my Reaper has to do is teleport to get you distracted? Plus I'm not going to teleport next to you within vision my friend. I don't think widowmaker is going to take out a reaper coming up behind her silently, and if Widowmaker stays distracted looking for a Reaper then she's not sniping my team. Sounds like a counter to me.
On May 11 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote: I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
So you mean all my Reaper has to do is teleport to get you distracted? Plus I'm not going to teleport next to you within vision my friend. I don't think widowmaker is going to take out a reaper coming up behind her silently, and if Widowmaker stays distracted looking for a Reaper then she's not sniping my team. Sounds like a counter to me.
Naw, he's right. Reaper if I know he's teleporting and see where he's going is the easiest free kill in this game as widowmaker
Flanking widow silently is key. Genji is the best flanking counter in my experience. Winston and D.Va can just harass her for days as well. Anyone who has more mobility than widow's grapple on a shorter cooldown is most effective. Against reaper, if I know I can't kill him with a full charged shot in time I'll just grapple away since I have a better CD and more range than him
Also widow's range means if she needs to reposition she can still be effective whereas if reaper fails his flank he kind of loses a lot of time.
On May 11 2016 23:50 ZeromuS wrote: Genji was solved in the meta by being nerfed, and his healer of choice zenyatta being nerfed, and the bonus hp from symmettra being nerfed.
Mei is the best solution to a genji in pubs. Can he escape her sure. But can he dive her or anyone near her? Nope. He's been nerfed to the point where there are just better options for certain compositions in competitive.
McCree can beat genji, and I agree hes also a good choice, but thats a skill matchup where you need to flashbang the genji before he deflects or if he's close enough by hitting the ground at his feet. Its nowhere near as simple as just left clicking as Mei and also less reliable.
Mei is good vs genji. She just cant do much else so she didnt get much play in comp because she can be ignored and played around in fully organized play, but outside of organized play shes top choice vs an annoying genji. Not so much tracer (another reason she wasnt used in comp was genji ran alongside tracer).
Also @djzapz A good widow will always destroy pharah. Pharah is not good vs widowmaker, if anything widowmaker will regularly shut down pharah very hard. She moves slow in the air, and is fairly predictable for sky movement making headshots really easy. Pharah can shoulder check and poke a widow out of one spot but if pharah doesnt know where widow is, then widow will destroy her.
Yeah, this is my experience as Genji against Mei. Her presence alone greatly limits Genji's flanking play. He's forced to stay more with the team, at which point you're better off with another hero in most circumstances.
I'd say that McCree vs. Genji is a pretty even matchup. McCree has the advantage because 1) he does more damage, and 2) he effectively has the first move, but it's certainly winnable for Genji if played right.
On May 11 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote: I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
So you mean all my Reaper has to do is teleport to get you distracted? Plus I'm not going to teleport next to you within vision my friend. I don't think widowmaker is going to take out a reaper coming up behind her silently, and if Widowmaker stays distracted looking for a Reaper then she's not sniping my team. Sounds like a counter to me.
As widow, I probably legitimately kill Reaper 20-25x more often than Reaper kills me. Literal non-issue. If they teleport behind me, I hear it and kill them. If I can't kill them before they get close, I relocate and ignore them. Then I call your position to my team and since your whereabouts are known you're a lot less dangerous. If you can kill Widows then good for you, they probably have poor spatial awareness though. Your teleport is actually rather loud.
On May 11 2016 10:17 xDaunt wrote: Mei owns Genji. If she catches Genji in close quarters, Genji is toast. Genji has to play around her.
Mei owns everyone in a very specific situation, as does Junkrat or Hanzo etc... that's not really an argument especially when Tracer/Genji have an escape while other heroes do not. Would you say that Mei counters S76? Because that's what happens when he's out of position.
We had a few weeks of Tracer/Genji dominance in competitive play and no one has ever played Mei to counter them. Heck, her pickrate went DOWN in that period, and IIRC she's only ever been played on Defense despite KOTH maps having lots of those "close quarters" fights. Teams eventually solved the Tracer/Genji meta by playing double McCree, while Mei sees less play than Bastion and Torbjorn.
Also @djzapz A good widow will always destroy pharah. Pharah is not good vs widowmaker, if anything widowmaker will regularly shut down pharah very hard. She moves slow in the air, and is fairly predictable for sky movement making headshots really easy. Pharah can shoulder check and poke a widow out of one spot but if pharah doesnt know where widow is, then widow will destroy her.
I'm by no means the best widow but I rarely have issues with Pharah. However she's one of the characters that make hit registration a bit iffy for me. Good Pharahs (or laggy pharahs?) move weirdly erratically and it seems like the hitboxes are all over the place. However they're not at all the biggest threat to me. But once people get really good we'll certainly have Widows that straight up never miss those easy headshots on Pharah, I'm not there yet . Nonetheless I think there are things that can be done for Pharahs to be less vulnerable to widow. Some of them are sneaky enough and kill me with direct hits while I'm dealing with other stuff. They have enough mobility to do that. If they take a good widow head on while mid-air it's over though, for sure.
On May 11 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote: I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
So you mean all my Reaper has to do is teleport to get you distracted? Plus I'm not going to teleport next to you within vision my friend. I don't think widowmaker is going to take out a reaper coming up behind her silently, and if Widowmaker stays distracted looking for a Reaper then she's not sniping my team. Sounds like a counter to me.
As widow, I probably legitimately kill Reaper 20-25x more often than Reaper kills me. Literal non-issue. If they teleport behind me, I hear it and kill them. If I can't kill them before they get close, I relocate and ignore them. If you can kill Widows then good for you, they probably have poor spatial awareness though. Your teleport is actually rather loud.
On May 11 2016 10:17 xDaunt wrote: Mei owns Genji. If she catches Genji in close quarters, Genji is toast. Genji has to play around her.
Mei owns everyone in a very specific situation, as does Junkrat or Hanzo etc... that's not really an argument especially when Tracer/Genji have an escape while other heroes do not. Would you say that Mei counters S76? Because that's what happens when he's out of position.
We had a few weeks of Tracer/Genji dominance in competitive play and no one has ever played Mei to counter them. Heck, her pickrate went DOWN in that period, and IIRC she's only ever been played on Defense despite KOTH maps having lots of those "close quarters" fights. Teams eventually solved the Tracer/Genji meta by playing double McCree, while Mei sees less play than Bastion and Torbjorn.
Also @djzapz A good widow will always destroy pharah. Pharah is not good vs widowmaker, if anything widowmaker will regularly shut down pharah very hard. She moves slow in the air, and is fairly predictable for sky movement making headshots really easy. Pharah can shoulder check and poke a widow out of one spot but if pharah doesnt know where widow is, then widow will destroy her.
I'm by no means the best widow but I rarely have issues with Pharah. However she's one of the characters that make hit registration a bit iffy for me. Good Pharahs (or laggy pharahs?) move weirdly erratically and it seems like the hitboxes are all over the place. However they're not at all the biggest threat to me. But once people get really good we'll certainly have Widows that straight up never miss those easy headshots on Pharah, I'm not there yet . Nonetheless I think there are things that can be done for Pharahs to be less vulnerable to widow. Some of them are sneaky enough and kill me with direct hits while I'm dealing with other stuff. They have enough mobility to do that. If they take a good widow head on while mid-air it's over though, for sure.
Agreed pharah can kill a distracted widow. I just know that whenever i try playing pharah vs a good widow I literally get nothing done. When the game was newer and in lower mmr i was able to kill her but as I moved up in matchmaking I basically had to stop playing pharah into her and 76 as people just got too good at shooting me.
On May 11 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote: I love playing against Zenyatta. Everything I play just kills that guy for free. I find that he rarely lasts an entire game against competent opposition. IMO Lucio is just a straight up better support and I can't imagine Zenyatta being playing competitively, although that might change if some meta evolved and it was specifically about protecting him.
Also I noticed someone mentioned reaper might be designed to counter Widows... Definitely not. Widow will eat reaper for breakfast. And when I hear a loud "REPOSITIONING" I know I'm getting a free kill. The best counters to Widowmaker IMO are D.va in her mech, Winston and above all else, other Widowmakers. Or team compositions which make Window ineffective, making killing her less of a priority.
So you mean all my Reaper has to do is teleport to get you distracted? Plus I'm not going to teleport next to you within vision my friend. I don't think widowmaker is going to take out a reaper coming up behind her silently, and if Widowmaker stays distracted looking for a Reaper then she's not sniping my team. Sounds like a counter to me.
As widow, I probably legitimately kill Reaper 20-25x more often than Reaper kills me. Literal non-issue. If they teleport behind me, I hear it and kill them. If I can't kill them before they get close, I relocate and ignore them. If you can kill Widows then good for you, they probably have poor spatial awareness though. Your teleport is actually rather loud.
On May 11 2016 23:50 ZeromuS wrote:
On May 11 2016 16:12 Big G wrote:
On May 11 2016 10:17 xDaunt wrote: Mei owns Genji. If she catches Genji in close quarters, Genji is toast. Genji has to play around her.
Mei owns everyone in a very specific situation, as does Junkrat or Hanzo etc... that's not really an argument especially when Tracer/Genji have an escape while other heroes do not. Would you say that Mei counters S76? Because that's what happens when he's out of position.
We had a few weeks of Tracer/Genji dominance in competitive play and no one has ever played Mei to counter them. Heck, her pickrate went DOWN in that period, and IIRC she's only ever been played on Defense despite KOTH maps having lots of those "close quarters" fights. Teams eventually solved the Tracer/Genji meta by playing double McCree, while Mei sees less play than Bastion and Torbjorn.
Also @djzapz A good widow will always destroy pharah. Pharah is not good vs widowmaker, if anything widowmaker will regularly shut down pharah very hard. She moves slow in the air, and is fairly predictable for sky movement making headshots really easy. Pharah can shoulder check and poke a widow out of one spot but if pharah doesnt know where widow is, then widow will destroy her.
I'm by no means the best widow but I rarely have issues with Pharah. However she's one of the characters that make hit registration a bit iffy for me. Good Pharahs (or laggy pharahs?) move weirdly erratically and it seems like the hitboxes are all over the place. However they're not at all the biggest threat to me. But once people get really good we'll certainly have Widows that straight up never miss those easy headshots on Pharah, I'm not there yet . Nonetheless I think there are things that can be done for Pharahs to be less vulnerable to widow. Some of them are sneaky enough and kill me with direct hits while I'm dealing with other stuff. They have enough mobility to do that. If they take a good widow head on while mid-air it's over though, for sure.
Agreed pharah can kill a distracted widow. I just know that whenever i try playing pharah vs a good widow I literally get nothing done. When the game was newer and in lower mmr i was able to kill her but as I moved up in matchmaking I basically had to stop playing pharah into her and 76 as people just got too good at shooting me.
I just don't play Pharah against Widows at my MMR because it's a chain-death sentence 80% of the time. I'm not sneaky .
Winston is what you take against a widow. Pharahs just get dropped from the air vs good Widows, they have to play super far back and defensive. A good Widow feels like the most OP thing in the game just due to how much space they control and how many heroes, which is pretty much all non tanks, die to a single charged headshot. Poor Tracer and Zeny die to a single charged bodyshot
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