• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:01
CEST 14:01
KST 21:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting9[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET2Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition32
StarCraft 2
General
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada herO Talks: Poor Performance at EWC and more... Revisiting the game after10 years and wow it's bad Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO
Tourneys
$1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) WardiTV Mondays RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET BW General Discussion Question regarding recent ASL Bisu vs Larva game [Interview] Grrrr... 2024 Pros React To: BarrackS + FlaSh Coaching vs SnOw
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Semifinal A
Strategy
Relatively freeroll strategies BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Current Meta Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Series you have seen recently... Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1482 users

Go - AlphaGo (Google) vs Lee Sedol (world champ)

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
BlueRoyaL
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
United States2493 Posts
March 09 2016 17:06 GMT
#1
Hey guys,

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of the old Chinese game "Go", and of the current Bo5 match going on between Google's deep learning AI machine AlphaGo versus the world's champion, Lee Sedol hailing from South Korea.

Late last year, AlphaGo was able to knock off Europe's champion 5 to nil. So what's the big deal this time around?

Simply put, the level of competition (against AlphaGo). Europe's champion, Fan Hui, is a level 2-dan player. Lee Sedol is 9-dan. The statistical probability of a 9-dan player beating a 2-dan player is over 95%.

Last night, the first game was played, with AlphaGo taking the early lead 1-0. This marks an amazing point of progress for AI, and more specifically, deep learning capabilities. The reason AI hasn't been able to handily beat professional Go players until very recently is simply because of the complexity of the game. The possible permutations in Go, exceeds that of the number of atoms in the universe (and for marked effect, by several orders of magnitude at that!). If you're a visual person, Go has about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible permutations. So it's pretty clear, that computers don't have the capability to win these games through brute-force computations. There simply doesn't exist the computational power to do so, especially considering that these matches are played with an allotted total time for each player, similar to how professional Chess matches are played.

Google's AlphaGo has gotten to this point by deep learning. It's able to view recordings of professional matches and learn. It can also not only learn from the mistakes and moves of its' own games played, but it also has the huge advantage that it can play against itself at speeds incomprehensible for us simple humans

Anyways, I thought some of you might find it interesting. I don't play Go much myself, and I don't have the time to watch the live streams of the matches. But I think it's fascinating because at some point, there may not exist a game out there that some form of AI can't beat us at.

Here's a few extras (including live stream link for those of you interested):

1st match recording:
www.youtube.com

List of live recordings and their schedules:
www.youtube.com

An awesome Wired article, detailing the history of Go and why (at that time, 2014) computers still can't beat humans:
www.wired.com

An ArsTechnica article about this current matchup:
arstechnica.com

And an awesome and relevant xkcd image (although it now needs updating!):
[image loading]

Hope this has stirred up some interested. These are amazing times we live in!
WHAT'S HAPPENIN
Powerpill
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States1693 Posts
March 09 2016 17:42 GMT
#2
SKynet begins with go? Seriously though, I was impressed with deep blue all those years ago and am equally impressed now (Go I think would be much harder to program than a chess AI, as you said with the near infinite possible permutations).
The pretty things are going to hell, they wore it out but they wore it well
RoyGBiv_13
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1275 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-09 19:27:21
March 09 2016 19:26 GMT
#3
The algorithm that AlphaGo used is a Monte Carlo tree search algorithm. In this algorithm, you start with a couple guesses as to reasonable plays based on heuristics, then evaluate each of those guesses by picking random counter moves for each potential move and seeing what can work and what can't. What AlphaGo has improved upon since this algorithm first came into Go in 2006 is two neural networks, and the training techniques for each one:
1) A network for predicting good potential moves in a present situation
2) A network for evaluating a board position

These neural networks make the tree search algorithm much more effective by eliminating obviously bad moves from the search and allowing the algorithm to evaluate board positions without having to simulate more future plays.

Also:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
ne4aJIb
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Russian Federation3209 Posts
March 09 2016 19:47 GMT
#4
I guess they mean Brood War
Bisu,Best,Stork,Jangbi and Flash, Fantasy, Leta, Light and Jaedong, Hydra, Zero, Soulkey assemble in ACE now!
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28091 Posts
March 09 2016 19:48 GMT
#5
I watched a bit of the first match and will hopefully catch more of the next one. I have a feeling Lee Sedol is gonna get 5-0'd though.
Administrator
nepeta
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
1872 Posts
March 09 2016 19:58 GMT
#6
Idk about calvinball, but after the latest broodwar AI conference, broodwar got estimated to take another 5-20 years to be 'humanly solved'. We've sent them an invitation though, just in case their brute force methods won't work for broodwar.
Broodwar AI :) http://sscaitournament.com http://www.starcraftai.com/wiki/Main_Page
Oshuy
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands529 Posts
March 09 2016 20:10 GMT
#7
On March 10 2016 04:26 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:
The algorithm that AlphaGo used is a Monte Carlo tree search algorithm. In this algorithm, you start with a couple guesses as to reasonable plays based on heuristics, then evaluate each of those guesses by picking random counter moves for each potential move and seeing what can work and what can't. What AlphaGo has improved upon since this algorithm first came into Go in 2006 is two neural networks, and the training techniques for each one:
1) A network for predicting good potential moves in a present situation
2) A network for evaluating a board position

These neural networks make the tree search algorithm much more effective by eliminating obviously bad moves from the search and allowing the algorithm to evaluate board positions without having to simulate more future plays.

Also: https://twitter.com/deeplearning4j/status/706541229543071745


The learning of the various networks is a fun part. First supervised learning to get a network that predicts correctly the next "human" move on a set of games (they let it train on a games database until it got ~60% of the time the human move), then get several copies of the network to play against itself in reinforcement learning on the whole game (when the game is won, the network changes for that game are valued more). The best network after ... lots of games was elected to predict the potential moves.

The second network is then used on the complete set, trained until it accurately provides an outcome (color winning) from a given position.

Combine the two with a standard Monte Carlo and you get a very good engine.

The only surprising part for me is how well the convergence on the two networks seems to have worked. In my days the networks tended to spend a few days learning to end up with barely better results than randomness (except on a select few problems). Then again, we worked with 3 layers and 50 neurones total (not including the programmer's).
Coooot
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-09 20:12:34
March 09 2016 20:11 GMT
#8
I would imagine the real development will be when AlphaGo knows the Human has lost before the player has made his/her move or counter.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17383 Posts
March 09 2016 20:16 GMT
#9
Snakes & Ladders - lol. I guess you can put Monopoly in there too...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44915 Posts
March 09 2016 21:30 GMT
#10
Yeah there are a few TL threads about Go

Like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/89504-tl-go-group?page=9#165
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
March 09 2016 21:49 GMT
#11
Or: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/129753-go-igo-weiqi-baduk which is even on the first page of this subforum... (for obvious reasons)
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11906 Posts
March 09 2016 21:51 GMT
#12
Sad the first game recording is so low quality, audio choppy and cuts to the wrong camera all the time.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
March 09 2016 22:15 GMT
#13
For those looking for a (English) video live analysis of the game adressed to a more Go educated crowd:

The same channel will broadcast as well in the future. But as I said, you should have a decent understanding of Go to be able to follow that broadcast, while the regular stream is more adressed at beginners.
For those just looking for a quick summary and analysis of the game in written form, you can look here:
https://gogameguru.com/alphago-defeats-lee-sedol-game-1/
It should be noted, that this summary is done by another 9p, but is actually summarizing a lot of different korean media/professional opinions on the match.
datscilly
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States529 Posts
March 09 2016 22:16 GMT
#14
On March 10 2016 06:51 Yurie wrote:
Sad the first game recording is so low quality, audio choppy and cuts to the wrong camera all the time.


Check out American Go Association's stream vod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZugVil2v4w
It starts an hour into the match, commentary is quicker and less oriented towards beginners.

Interesting thing about that xkcd comic: in Arimaa a bot beat the best human players just last year (in April). So the field of AI in games appears to be advancing rapidly.

I'm personally excited by the possibility of AI becoming superhumanly good at other tasks, as well as games. Like how driverless cars + Show Spoiler +
I hope the term auto catches on
will be better than humans, but for medicine, or scientific research.
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
March 10 2016 08:27 GMT
#15
The robot won again o.o 2-0
Dating thread on TL LUL
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28091 Posts
March 10 2016 08:28 GMT
#16
AlphaGo owns. We're doomed.
Administrator
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
March 10 2016 08:30 GMT
#17
LLWWW...

Sigh, but no really. Humanity lost. Probably 0-5.
T P Z sagi
SChlafmann
Profile Joined September 2011
France725 Posts
March 10 2016 10:34 GMT
#18
Close match still if I understood correctly. Some poor quality news website says that Lee lost from only 2 points after a 5h game. Crazy shit. I believe that if Lee doesn't win next one it will be a clean sweep 5-0.
Otherwise 4-1, but I don't see him defeating the AI twice.
Damn.
"More GG, more skill" - Nope! Chuck Testa - #BISU2013
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12489 Posts
March 10 2016 11:02 GMT
#19
could there exist a person who excel in beating computer go since as some said, go is a less logic game compared to chess
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
March 10 2016 13:04 GMT
#20
I wonder if they're going to continue developing AlphaGo. Maybe it was only a proof of concept type product? For instance, chess engines are not that interesting any more for research programs. I kinda hope they won't, I felt like chess was more mysterious before computers.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Master Swan Open #97
CranKy Ducklings52
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 558
Lowko284
trigger 7
MindelVK 2
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 32011
Calm 9031
Rain 3961
Bisu 1732
actioN 1662
Horang2 1583
GuemChi 1336
Flash 779
Jaedong 746
Mini 361
[ Show more ]
firebathero 355
Stork 238
Last 207
Hyun 166
ZerO 108
Barracks 100
Soulkey 89
ggaemo 69
ToSsGirL 68
hero 55
Backho 44
Free 41
sas.Sziky 25
Sacsri 22
soO 20
JYJ20
HiyA 10
scan(afreeca) 10
ivOry 8
Dota 2
XcaliburYe1359
420jenkins290
Fuzer 236
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor259
Other Games
summit1g16114
singsing2540
B2W.Neo662
DeMusliM280
Happy213
Mew2King146
ViBE78
Trikslyr17
ZerO(Twitch)13
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH136
• Adnapsc2 12
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler29
League of Legends
• Jankos2761
• Nemesis990
Upcoming Events
BSL Team A[vengers]
1h 59m
Bonyth vs Paralyze
StRyKeR vs Ample
Safe House 2
4h 59m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
21h 59m
Safe House 2
1d 4h
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.