• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 17:57
CET 23:57
KST 07:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)1Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win2RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge2[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14
StarCraft 2
General
When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket
Tourneys
Tenacious Turtle Tussle RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest
Strategy
Ride the Waves in Surf City: Why Surfing Lessons H
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft Data analysis on 70 million replays 2v2 maps which are SC2 style with teams together? [BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)
Tourneys
[BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? Current Meta PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2080 users

Go - AlphaGo (Google) vs Lee Sedol (world champ)

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
BlueRoyaL
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
United States2493 Posts
March 09 2016 17:06 GMT
#1
Hey guys,

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of the old Chinese game "Go", and of the current Bo5 match going on between Google's deep learning AI machine AlphaGo versus the world's champion, Lee Sedol hailing from South Korea.

Late last year, AlphaGo was able to knock off Europe's champion 5 to nil. So what's the big deal this time around?

Simply put, the level of competition (against AlphaGo). Europe's champion, Fan Hui, is a level 2-dan player. Lee Sedol is 9-dan. The statistical probability of a 9-dan player beating a 2-dan player is over 95%.

Last night, the first game was played, with AlphaGo taking the early lead 1-0. This marks an amazing point of progress for AI, and more specifically, deep learning capabilities. The reason AI hasn't been able to handily beat professional Go players until very recently is simply because of the complexity of the game. The possible permutations in Go, exceeds that of the number of atoms in the universe (and for marked effect, by several orders of magnitude at that!). If you're a visual person, Go has about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible permutations. So it's pretty clear, that computers don't have the capability to win these games through brute-force computations. There simply doesn't exist the computational power to do so, especially considering that these matches are played with an allotted total time for each player, similar to how professional Chess matches are played.

Google's AlphaGo has gotten to this point by deep learning. It's able to view recordings of professional matches and learn. It can also not only learn from the mistakes and moves of its' own games played, but it also has the huge advantage that it can play against itself at speeds incomprehensible for us simple humans

Anyways, I thought some of you might find it interesting. I don't play Go much myself, and I don't have the time to watch the live streams of the matches. But I think it's fascinating because at some point, there may not exist a game out there that some form of AI can't beat us at.

Here's a few extras (including live stream link for those of you interested):

1st match recording:
www.youtube.com

List of live recordings and their schedules:
www.youtube.com

An awesome Wired article, detailing the history of Go and why (at that time, 2014) computers still can't beat humans:
www.wired.com

An ArsTechnica article about this current matchup:
arstechnica.com

And an awesome and relevant xkcd image (although it now needs updating!):
[image loading]

Hope this has stirred up some interested. These are amazing times we live in!
WHAT'S HAPPENIN
Powerpill
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States1693 Posts
March 09 2016 17:42 GMT
#2
SKynet begins with go? Seriously though, I was impressed with deep blue all those years ago and am equally impressed now (Go I think would be much harder to program than a chess AI, as you said with the near infinite possible permutations).
The pretty things are going to hell, they wore it out but they wore it well
RoyGBiv_13
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1275 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-09 19:27:21
March 09 2016 19:26 GMT
#3
The algorithm that AlphaGo used is a Monte Carlo tree search algorithm. In this algorithm, you start with a couple guesses as to reasonable plays based on heuristics, then evaluate each of those guesses by picking random counter moves for each potential move and seeing what can work and what can't. What AlphaGo has improved upon since this algorithm first came into Go in 2006 is two neural networks, and the training techniques for each one:
1) A network for predicting good potential moves in a present situation
2) A network for evaluating a board position

These neural networks make the tree search algorithm much more effective by eliminating obviously bad moves from the search and allowing the algorithm to evaluate board positions without having to simulate more future plays.

Also:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
ne4aJIb
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Russian Federation3209 Posts
March 09 2016 19:47 GMT
#4
I guess they mean Brood War
Bisu,Best,Stork,Jangbi and Flash, Fantasy, Leta, Light and Jaedong, Hydra, Zero, Soulkey assemble in ACE now!
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28094 Posts
March 09 2016 19:48 GMT
#5
I watched a bit of the first match and will hopefully catch more of the next one. I have a feeling Lee Sedol is gonna get 5-0'd though.
Administrator
nepeta
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
1872 Posts
March 09 2016 19:58 GMT
#6
Idk about calvinball, but after the latest broodwar AI conference, broodwar got estimated to take another 5-20 years to be 'humanly solved'. We've sent them an invitation though, just in case their brute force methods won't work for broodwar.
Broodwar AI :) http://sscaitournament.com http://www.starcraftai.com/wiki/Main_Page
Oshuy
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands529 Posts
March 09 2016 20:10 GMT
#7
On March 10 2016 04:26 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:
The algorithm that AlphaGo used is a Monte Carlo tree search algorithm. In this algorithm, you start with a couple guesses as to reasonable plays based on heuristics, then evaluate each of those guesses by picking random counter moves for each potential move and seeing what can work and what can't. What AlphaGo has improved upon since this algorithm first came into Go in 2006 is two neural networks, and the training techniques for each one:
1) A network for predicting good potential moves in a present situation
2) A network for evaluating a board position

These neural networks make the tree search algorithm much more effective by eliminating obviously bad moves from the search and allowing the algorithm to evaluate board positions without having to simulate more future plays.

Also: https://twitter.com/deeplearning4j/status/706541229543071745


The learning of the various networks is a fun part. First supervised learning to get a network that predicts correctly the next "human" move on a set of games (they let it train on a games database until it got ~60% of the time the human move), then get several copies of the network to play against itself in reinforcement learning on the whole game (when the game is won, the network changes for that game are valued more). The best network after ... lots of games was elected to predict the potential moves.

The second network is then used on the complete set, trained until it accurately provides an outcome (color winning) from a given position.

Combine the two with a standard Monte Carlo and you get a very good engine.

The only surprising part for me is how well the convergence on the two networks seems to have worked. In my days the networks tended to spend a few days learning to end up with barely better results than randomness (except on a select few problems). Then again, we worked with 3 layers and 50 neurones total (not including the programmer's).
Coooot
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-09 20:12:34
March 09 2016 20:11 GMT
#8
I would imagine the real development will be when AlphaGo knows the Human has lost before the player has made his/her move or counter.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17463 Posts
March 09 2016 20:16 GMT
#9
Snakes & Ladders - lol. I guess you can put Monopoly in there too...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45092 Posts
March 09 2016 21:30 GMT
#10
Yeah there are a few TL threads about Go

Like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/89504-tl-go-group?page=9#165
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
March 09 2016 21:49 GMT
#11
Or: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/129753-go-igo-weiqi-baduk which is even on the first page of this subforum... (for obvious reasons)
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11936 Posts
March 09 2016 21:51 GMT
#12
Sad the first game recording is so low quality, audio choppy and cuts to the wrong camera all the time.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
March 09 2016 22:15 GMT
#13
For those looking for a (English) video live analysis of the game adressed to a more Go educated crowd:

The same channel will broadcast as well in the future. But as I said, you should have a decent understanding of Go to be able to follow that broadcast, while the regular stream is more adressed at beginners.
For those just looking for a quick summary and analysis of the game in written form, you can look here:
https://gogameguru.com/alphago-defeats-lee-sedol-game-1/
It should be noted, that this summary is done by another 9p, but is actually summarizing a lot of different korean media/professional opinions on the match.
datscilly
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States529 Posts
March 09 2016 22:16 GMT
#14
On March 10 2016 06:51 Yurie wrote:
Sad the first game recording is so low quality, audio choppy and cuts to the wrong camera all the time.


Check out American Go Association's stream vod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZugVil2v4w
It starts an hour into the match, commentary is quicker and less oriented towards beginners.

Interesting thing about that xkcd comic: in Arimaa a bot beat the best human players just last year (in April). So the field of AI in games appears to be advancing rapidly.

I'm personally excited by the possibility of AI becoming superhumanly good at other tasks, as well as games. Like how driverless cars + Show Spoiler +
I hope the term auto catches on
will be better than humans, but for medicine, or scientific research.
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
March 10 2016 08:27 GMT
#15
The robot won again o.o 2-0
Dating thread on TL LUL
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28094 Posts
March 10 2016 08:28 GMT
#16
AlphaGo owns. We're doomed.
Administrator
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3301 Posts
March 10 2016 08:30 GMT
#17
LLWWW...

Sigh, but no really. Humanity lost. Probably 0-5.
T P Z sagi
SChlafmann
Profile Joined September 2011
France725 Posts
March 10 2016 10:34 GMT
#18
Close match still if I understood correctly. Some poor quality news website says that Lee lost from only 2 points after a 5h game. Crazy shit. I believe that if Lee doesn't win next one it will be a clean sweep 5-0.
Otherwise 4-1, but I don't see him defeating the AI twice.
Damn.
"More GG, more skill" - Nope! Chuck Testa - #BISU2013
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12561 Posts
March 10 2016 11:02 GMT
#19
could there exist a person who excel in beating computer go since as some said, go is a less logic game compared to chess
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
March 10 2016 13:04 GMT
#20
I wonder if they're going to continue developing AlphaGo. Maybe it was only a proof of concept type product? For instance, chess engines are not that interesting any more for research programs. I kinda hope they won't, I felt like chess was more mysterious before computers.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 3m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
elazer 198
UpATreeSC 177
JuggernautJason92
CosmosSc2 36
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 2322
ZZZero.O 160
BeSt 157
Hyun 128
Killer 72
ggaemo 27
SilentControl 23
Dota 2
syndereN276
Counter-Strike
Foxcn181
Fnx 82
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu380
Other Games
Grubby7097
FrodaN2182
C9.Mang0137
ViBE101
Maynarde88
Trikslyr45
fpsfer 1
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream170
StarCraft 2
angryscii 29
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 24 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 80
• sitaska47
• musti20045 33
• davetesta23
• Adnapsc2 10
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 31
• Pr0nogo 4
• mYiSmile12
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler71
League of Legends
• Doublelift3238
• TFBlade1439
Other Games
• imaqtpie1459
• Scarra1454
• Shiphtur600
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
2h 3m
Replay Cast
10h 3m
Wardi Open
13h 3m
OSC
14h 3m
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
1d 1h
The PondCast
1d 11h
Replay Cast
2 days
OSC
2 days
LAN Event
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

SOOP Univ League 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.